Thank you all for the warm welcome, and hopefully a safe place to vent my frustrations. I only recent read "His Needs, Her Needs" and it's given me hope for our marriage, as even though H has done what he thought would help me heal and rebuild trust in him, I've become increasingly dissatisfied with our relationship and I was entertaining thoughts of divorce. I just ordered the LB book, and now H is reading the HNHN book. I'm so grateful to Dr. Harley!<p>To answer zebrababy's questions (thanks for breaking the ice) and to give you the "lowdown" on the situation that brings me to this forum...<p>OC are ages 7 (girl) and 5 (boy). H and I's kids are 2 and 9 mos. As H wanted absolutely nothing to do with OW or OC for months following the end of A in 4/00 (I neither insisted on nor even was aware of the No Contact Rule... this was strictly H's decision), I became the contact person concerning OC, as OW emailed me at least once daily (and sometimes 3 or 4 times). I'm still not sure if her contact with me back then was out of her desire for some kind of closure (she talked bad about H and said she would never take him back even if he tried), or if it was an attempt on her part to keep tabs on what was going on between H and I. OW dropped kids off to visit us at H's mom's house once in 8/00 and once in 9/00, and I drove the kids back home. Let me interject here that OW was under the impression that I was still planning to divorce my H as soon as I'd saved enough money to get my own apt. (this was my plan on D-day), and I continued to let her believe this until H came out of "the fog" and we'd had more time to discuss reconciliation -- though sticking it out was my hope.<p>I sent out an email in mid 10/00 to family and friends with pix of our boys, letting everyone know that we were about to move into a larger place, and also letting them know that H and I had decided to "put past mistakes behind us and move on with our married life together." OW was included in the large list of people sent this email. I did not get another email from OW for almost two months (hmmmm....), though I contacted her by phone to give her our new address and home number, as well as to arrange for visitation during Thanksgiving and Christmas 2000 holidays. OD was having problems adjusting to her mom and dad breaking up and was talking hostilely about H to OW, so OW brought the kids to our new place for these holidays and stayed for a while to make sure OD would warm up to H, which OD did quickly once she saw H. We later learned the reason for OD's hostility, which I'll explain further down.<p>When OW dropped the kids off for the Nov and Dec '00 visits, both H and I had noticed that OW was staying long after the kids had gotten comfortable and was acting quite flirty with H. And on the Dec '00 visit, she told us that she thought the kids needed to come spend EVERY weekend here with us. So for the Jan '01 visit, H had me both pick the kids up and bring them home so that OW would not be in direct contact with H. The week after this visit where OW didn't see H, she sent my H an email from her new AOL account (H had her old account blocked and she knew this) telling him that she had a reason for her new AOL account name (Get this-- new account name was the name of the third child they'd discussed having together during their A, with "02" after the name-- was she still planning to have that child with him by 2002?!) and wrote my H not to give me her new address because I talked about things she didn't care to hear about. What the h*ll?! H did not write her back.<p>I got pregnant again (unintentional) in late Jan '01 and we were having major financial difficulties, and OC did not visit again until mid April '01, at which time I told OW I was pregnant. OW had gotten a new job in March '01 in which she took $1.50/hr DECREASE in pay to go work 20 miles FARTHER away from her home, but it put her near both H's office and our home. Go figure.<p>She called us 2 days after I told her I was pregnant to demand that we pay half of a medical bill for OD, though I'd told her months prior that if she chose to stay with that physician, she'd be responsible for the bills because that doctor wasn't covered by H's health ins. for OC. She got VERY ugly and said that she didn't make OD by herself and that H should have to pay half regardless of whether insurance covered. I told her H had been ordered by the state to cover OC and was paying $450 per month for insurance in addition to her child support, and reminded her that she received $435/mo SSA (for OD's suspected growth deficiency) and that I thought this kind of situation was what that check was supposed to be used for. She was angry, but paid the entire bill. <p>One week later, she dropped in at our apt. on her way home from work to drop off invitations to OC's dance recital the following month, and despite not calling us ahead of time to tell us she was coming (she has a cellphone), she sat here on the couch flirting with my H for almost 20 minutes while I was trying to prepare dinner. Let me add that I saw her pull up in the driveway from the kitchen window, and I watched her brush her hair and carefully apply lipstick before getting out of her car.<p>In mid May we attended the dance recital, and then late May we attended OD's kindergarten graduation. The OW behaved for the recital (she was backstage helping most of the time, but for the graduation she kept trying to find ways to get my H off to the side alone. Yes, I AM insecure... especially at this time when I was HUGE pregnant and she'd lost weight. It just really bugs me the way she flat-out ignores me when my H is around -- he and I can be sitting close together and side-by-side across from her and she will stare intently into his face and talk only to him like I'm not even there.<p>I picked the kids up for a visit the weekend after the graduation, and made sure to mention to OW that H was getting a vasectomy the following week. That would be the last visit (early June 2001) we had with the kids until late Jan. 2002. In July and August '01, when I'd call OW to set up visitation, the kids always had plans for the next 3 to 4 weeks planned. And she was more hostile to me than she'd ever been, speaking to me in a very clipped and barely civil tone. In late Aug., she finally told me the kids could come that Sat. afternoon after they got back from the mall, and she'd call to let me know. At 9:30 p.m. I finally called her to see if the kids were ready, and she informed me that the kids weren't coming because they were going to see a movie Sunday. Her tone was so very hostile, like she dared me to challenge her. I took a deep breath and said okay and that we'd try again to set up visitation in a week or two. After hanging up, I asked H if he had any idea what her problem was, and if she was pissed at me or at him. H said he had no idea, but that we should just drop visitation altogether for a while. FINE with me!!<p>We attended Retrouvaille in late August and I had our second son in late September. OC's birthdays were in late Oct/early Nov and we sent cards and birthday checks, and OW called from work to thank me, but was in a huge hurry to get off the phone. Thanksgiving came and we mailed OC Thanksgiving cards, and we bought them several Xmas gifts which got moved to a closet after we took down the tree in mid January, but we never heard from OW or OC. H filed a petition to reduce child support due to the birth of our second son and me not working, and the hearing was set for late January 2002. <p>The day after OW received her notice to appear for a reduction hearing, she called my H's exW to see if she'd gotten a notice also, and OW told exW that she "refused" to let him touch her support. OW called my H at his office (rare as he's usually out in the field) and asked him why he'd asked for a hearing, and during the conversation H asked to see OC. OW agreed to bring them over the next day (Sat.) as she was taking them to her office for a couple of hours. It was a VERY awkward visit with OW staying the entire time, (though the kids had a blast playing with their Xmas gifts with H) and when I offered to bring the kids back later because they wanted to stay, she said she had a headache and that they also had plans to go somewhere else and they were already late -- though the kids acted all surprised when she said that and asked her where they were going.<p>Three days later was the hearing, and while H was in room with exW and OW and I were waiting outside for OW's turn, I found out some very disturbing information. OW turned and told me that she didn't appreciate me telling the kids I was pregnant. I explained that I had only told them that they were going to have another baby brother coming and when they asked where he was, I'd pointed to my swelling belly and said that he was still growing and they'd be able to play with him about the time that they went back to school in the fall. I didn't say how the baby got in my belly or how he'd get out, and the kids had seemed satisfied with my answer. She heatedly told me, "You shouldn't say stuff like that to kids because they learn all that stuff soon enough on their own." I told her that H had been sitting right there on the couch when I said that to the kids, and she said that my H had agreed with her that I shouldn't have said it and that's why he'd agreed to have a talk with me about watching how I talked to "her" kids.<p>I asked her when and where she had talked to my H about this, and she said a few days after that last visit in early June 2001 she had run into him by accident at the Wendy's near her work, and she had used that opportunity to tell him off. She said she'd also called him at work and talked to him about this after that, and he'd told her he would have a talk with me. I told her that he'd never mentioned a word about it to me, but now I understood why she'd started acting pissed off at me and why she didn't let the kids come over after that. She became very angry and said that H had lied to her last week, because when he asked to see OC, she asked him again if he'd talked to me about what I said to her kids, and he told her he HAD. She added that if she knew he'd never talked to me, she would have never brought the kids over.<p>I tried to keep a cool head and a little dignity, and asked her how she felt we should have told the kids about my monstrous belly, and hadn't they ever asked her before why a skinny lady had such a fat stomach? She told me that her kids knew better than to ask her something like that, and that I shouldn't have said anything at all about a baby (again, OC are ages 5 and 7), and they'd learn about where babies came from soon enough from school without me adding to it. I just shook my head in disbelief and didn't know what to say. OW is still talking and says that her kids aren't stupid, they understand a lot more than people think they do, especially OD.<p>Then OW proceeds to tell me that she told OD everything a while back. Then she stops and just looks at me expectantly. With a sinking feeling, I ask OW what does she mean by "everything," and she says everything about all this stuff that went down. She went on to say that after the A ended, OD kept asking her questions like "Mommy, why doesn't Daddy love you anymore?" and "Why isn't Daddy married to you, Mommy?", and she got sick and tired of OD's questions. So she sat OD down and told a then 6 y/o little girl that her daddy had never loved her mommy, that her daddy had cheated on her mommy with a bunch of other ladies including Ms. WaterRabbit, and that her daddy couldn't marry her mommy because he had already married Ms. WaterRabbit instead. OW also said she told OD that Ms. WaterRabbit had called her mommy a bad word. I was in shock, and chokingly asked OW that she thought it was fine and dandy to tell a 6 y/o about the ugly aspects of adult relationships, but she had a problem with me telling OD there was a baby in my tummy? She stubbornly told me that OD was old enough to handle what she'd told her, and she didn't regret it one bit.<p>Since then, OW has called twice in February to give H dates of OS's karate testing, and then three times in March (the third time on her birthday of all days) to give us info on OS's karate tournament. H has been working Saturdays for months now, so we didn't attend either OS's karate testing or his tournament. And we haven't seen or heard from OW or OC (that I know of, at least) since then. We've heard through the grapevine that OW bought a house and moved in early May.<p>I almost divorced H after the hearing because he'd agreed to tell me of ANY contact he had with OW or OC, and he'd been outright lying to me about this even while at Retrouvaille! Hopefully, he'll tell me of any future contact, but now I'm not so certain.<p>And I'm honestly relieved that we've had no contact whatsoever, as with all the poison that the OW has been feeding her kids about both H and me, I'm shocked the kids haven't spit in my face yet or called to curse me out. Maybe it's best to cut off contact completely? It's a real shame too because OC are great, and before all the crap went down last summer, they were loving and respectful towards me. But honestly, my H seems to be the type of person who has trouble dividing himself up. He doesn't go out of his way to contact OC or his 11 y/o son by his first wife either, and the guilt trips I've laid on him the past 3 years about neglecting them, as well as doing it FOR him (buying presents and cards for the kids) only seems to have made my H resent ME! My marriage is in enough trouble as it is, so I've begun concentrating on H's relationship with me and our 2 boys. Besides, I was getting "beat up" by both H and OW for my efforts to keep him involved with OC.<p>Okay, I think that's it, at least for now. Hopefully, this quiet period with OW and OC will continue long enough for us to finish learning about the marriagebuilders program and begin implementing it. Oh yeah, I think "twiisty" is in the same city as I am, as Blues Clues Birthday played here on Father's Day.

Wow!! How did you put up with so much crap from exOW? Man you have to be a saint, if exOW involved herself in my life as much as your's did I think I would have flipped. I'm glad mine is crazy and deranged and not a part of our lives at all. I don't have any advice but I'm glad things are going smoothly for you for the moment. At this point even though I used to believe in contact we have no contact and things are a lot better. Do what's best for you and your family. If H doesn't send gifts or cards then you shouldn't worry about doing it either, let him take the lead as long as he doesn't disrespect you. Good luck!<p>Unsure

Thanks for responding, Unsure. I'm definitely NOT a saint, just ask my H (heh). Even if I were, my halo would be down somewhere around my ankles. I honestly don't know how I've endured what I have without committing either suicide or homicide (though I've entertained thoughts of both at various points of this journey), but apparently God doesn't put more on our plates than he knows we can handle.<p>Best of luck to you and yours also!