July 21st will be DDay for me. On Friday while I was cleaning I found a receipt from Toys R Us from christmas. I put the receipt where he could find it and he later asked me did I want to talk. After some discussion he blurts out he wants to see his daughter and how did I want to go about it. I asked him what did he mean by "see his daughter", he said he wanted to interact with her. Take her places, i.e. mall, movies etc., he said of course he would be "discreet" and not take her anywhere people know us. I told him I could not agree to this and I didn't think it was fair of him to subject me and my children to anymore pain. However, if he felt such a strong need then it has come time to separate, i.e. divorce. He said OK but ended with you wanted me to be honest and when I tried to open up to you, look what happened. Thats why I don't tell you anything. Am I wrong to think this man has lost his freaking mine. He didn't sit me down to discuss his OC he only blurted it out only after he was caught in another lie. I am setting up an appt. for Monday for us to speak with a lawyer. I am very upset at the fact this could have been over a year ago if I had just left as soon as I found out.

Lemon pie

You might ask him what he thinks he would do for his daughter by keeping her a secret, he might as well not bother, whats he going to do when someone sees him that he knows, make something up in front of his daughter.. Seems almost cruel.

I think he should be in his daughters life or leave it alone, but I dont think pretending she is someone else if someone sees him is ok. He should do some serious thinking.
Kinda hard not to ever run into any one you know isnt it ?

Is he already seeing her!? I know what bothers me most is ever so often I get grief from his wife that I never came forward soon enough with daughter, but you see I did and he saw her in secret for a year before I put my foot down and said do it in the open or go away.
so he came out and admitted he had a daughter to everyone. Of course now I cant get rid of him, But he is a good father. But he has never told his wife the truth about how long he has actually known daughter. She still thinks I deprived him of that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Sorry this is so difficult for you, dont jump to conclusions before you and he have time to talk it out, You must have stayed for a reason.

LP,

I think MO5 made a great point. How is he going to keep it a secret and is that fair to OC. He has to realize that no matter where he goes he can be seen by someone you both know. And to lie in front of OC and cal her something else is cruel. I don't know how old she is but eventually she will understand she's this big secret.

When I was supporting my H and pushing for contact I didn't realize it would mean we would have to explain to people we have know our entire lives where this extra child came from. I wasn't going to lie, I thought I would just say she's my step daughter and leave it at that. Your H has to realize that a PT dad is sometimes worse than a father without contact. He has to do what's fair for the child.

Good luck in whatever decisions you have to make.

Unsure

Dear lemonpie,

My H tried to have contact with his daughter -- sneaking around and not telling me so I would not be "upset". After he was caught and we had a chance to really talk about it, the story that came out was cruel indeed -- cruel to the OC.

He used to take the child and drive her out of town, keeping her mostly in the car all day or taking her to places where he thought they could not be "spotted". The child would ask to go places, like the local Chuck E. Cheese or arcade where obviously other kids she knew went -- and my H could never take her to those places.

It really became difficult when she started asking why they always went out alone and why they were always driving around. Why couldn't she see his house? Or spend the night with him? She knew from many overheard conversations (people forget children are not deaf) that her father had another family. She then started asking why she had no family and why she wasn't good enough to be part of his real family.

OC or not, that last part nearly broke my heart. No child should feel that lost and rejected. At the tender age of 5 she was already painfully aware that there was something different about her and it was not good.

After we talked, my H and I came to the conclusion that the secret visitation was more about his selfishness and ego than about the OC. He wanted to make sure the OC was okay, which was an admirable thing, but he was not prepared to suffer the humiliation of dealing with all of the people who know him as a happily married man.

So his solution was one that worked for him, but was devastating for the OC. He finally admitted to himself that the OC's mother was raising her just fine without his input, he was sending support money, and if he cared about this child the best thing he could do was let her go if he was not prepared to integrate her fully into his world.

Tell your H to think carefully about the effects on the child rather than thinking only of his own curiosity and needs. Sometimes the best thing we can do for our children is the hardest thing for us to do ourselves.

Good luck,
love,
heavenly

Thank you all for your response. My H and I had a very long talk yesterday and I explained to him that I understood his need to see his daughter however he must understand that I am not ready to deal with it as I am still in greiving myself. I told him that because of his A their are many things I don't like about the A or him but I have to deal with them in order to stay Married therefore, if he feels he has to answer every emotion he has to make himself feel good then we best part because for the past year I have done and still do a lot of things that don't me feel good but I wanted to save my marriage. The bottom line is he asked me to give him a list of things I wanted from him in order to save the marriage. Here they are, let me know what you guys think.

1) GET THE PATERNITY TEST DONE
2) If OC is his arrange financial arrangement to support OC or take her to court and have it done legally.
3) No contact until I'm ready.

He asked me to give him 48 hours to think because he found that when he responded right after I asked him things he wasn't really being honest,he just didn't want to argue about it.

1) GET THE PATERNITY TEST DONE

a very good idea

2) If OC is his arrange financial arrangement to support OC or take her to court and have it done legally.

ALSO A GOOD IDEA a very good idea

3) No contact until I'm ready.

DOES this mean you will one day be ready or will he have to wait 20 years for you to be ready, maybe he isnt very clear on what your saying. It implies false hope. You might want to be more clear. I dont think any one can make a decision about there life with out knowing exactly what they can and will accept.

I think he responded well, This way he has time to think before he speaks. Good luck

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Dear lemonpie,

Sounds like progress ... I am still praying for you and your H to get through this incident and re-commit to your marriage.

I think your points are quite reasonable. I understand momof5's point about not giving him false hope. But, actually, at this point in the process neither he nor you know what you really want. There is so much emotional turmoil and upheaval when an OC is involved that it takes some time for both of you to calm down and focus on what is best for your marriage and yourselves.
Even though the OC is one year old, since you have not had contact this announcement is like starting all over again from the beginning.

You were very much opposed to any contact in your opening post, but there are others here who changed their mind and opened their heart to limited visitation. Some are absolutely opposed and provide child support only.

I think most agree, however, that it is best to focus on rebuilding your marriage to the point where you can accept the situation. That means, at least at this point, no contact with the OW and OC. Then, if you choose to deal with the OC, it means dealing with the OW as a couple and always putting up a united front. Sneaking around does not work for anyone, and especially not the child.

love,
heavenly

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

Heavenly, the OC is 3 yrs old. I just found out last year in July. My H kept his A and OC a secret for almost 4 years.

MOF, as Heavenly stated, I don't know when I would be ready. A year ago, I was adamant that there would be no contact. I also said I would not tell the children. One year later, I have told my children and now I am debating on contact with OC. I feel my H had 4 yrs to deal with it, so he's still ahead if you ask me. And if I decide not to ever have him have contact then he should make the decision as to what it is he wants. What bothers me about my H wanting contact is:

1. He said it was a mistake (7 month A before she got pregnant), I say this was a pretty long mistake, don't you.
2. After she got pregnant (and I believe because he was no longer in control) he said he didn't want anything to do with her or the OC but admitted that he was the one contacting her.
3. The only reason he was sneaking to see her was to protect me. He didn't want me to find out.

My H said he was willing to do anything she asked as long as she kept everything a secret.

Well now that the secret is out and all of the above are true then why is contact such an issue.

I believe that the OW knew that bringing a C in the world with a MM would create a problem. My H knew that sleeping with the OW could cause a problem. As my mother use to say, you have made your bed now you must lie in it. If the creates a problem for my H and/or OW then they should have to deal with the fact that it is the problem they created, not me. If I choose no contact, he should agree after all the OC is not the only innocent party, my children and I are also and I believe we come first. He should be thinking what's in the best interest of my wife and children, not the OW or OC. But as I write this, if he was thinking about what was best for us, I wouldn't be writing on this forum would I. I am just terribly unhappy. I feel I am in a lose, lose situation.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Since your husband wants to be discreet about visits with this little girl, I think he should not bother... untill he has the courage to face it and be open and honest about it , he is doing that little girl no favors, and she will one day wonder why he even bothered. JMO.

If he has been in this childs life this long, WHY hasnt he done DNA testing ? Seems that would have been the first thing to do. And if he has been playing daddy to this little girl, what kind of damage is he going to do to her, by walking away ? AND reguardless of the circumstances..Will he be able to walk away from a child that is his and he has bonded to ? I know you and your children are innocent. I do understand that and i am sure he knows that as well...A bond with a child is hard to break and if he has it he may not be able to break it for any one. I could very well be wrong.. I couldnt and wouldnt give my child up for any one. But that is just me, Maybe some men feel differently than women.. but my husband doesnt, he wouldnt give up a child either.
I guess my main concern for all those here who choose this option of no contact is what happens when your spouse can no longer live with no contact. You love him you want to be married, you are learning to forgive, isnt part of that forgiveness, helping him do what he feels he needs to do for the children he has created ?

I dont mean the OW she isnt a concern, but these men longing to see a child they created and feeling so guilty because of abandoning the children, How are they supposed to deal with that.. with out growing to resent you?

I am just trying to understand, Please know that. Is the biggest concern having this woman in your lives? Is it seeing this child and knowing how she/he came to be ?
I am not saying the way we did this is the best, because it has many faults to it, and I see lots of things that arent good about it, and would be happy to share them with any one who wanted to know. But there are good things as well .
If your children ever meet the oc, you might be suprised how easy children get along and love each other. I think children do things better than adults.
The other day I had lunch with MY husband, xom and daughter, It was creepy to be honest, they needed to discuss business and we try and keep things on an even basis for daughter to see, But frankly I hated it, didnt say much of anything, they did all the talking. and I am never speachless. But my daughter was just as happy as a clam, although I think she was torn about who to go to, and OM made sure he reffered to my husband as daddy as well. FOR him and his pride that was a big deal. I for one think next time they can go with out me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

ok enough rambling, I am just talking to my self out loud basically.
Lets be honest, these are all messes and we just have to do what we can, and Hope it turns out for the best. and wish all the children involved grow up healthy and happy inspite of their parents.
I think you will do fine lemon pie, and I am venting as well, so take it with a grain of salt.
what do I know I am not in your shoes.

disclaimer

these are only mom of fives thoughts , They mean nothing to any one but MO5. Please know I mean no disrespect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear momof5,

So many questions ... and sadly none of them have really good answers. I thought I would share my own experience with you, as a BS whose H has an OC.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he has been in this childs life this long, WHY hasnt he done DNA testing ? Seems that would have been the first thing to do. And if he has been playing daddy to this little girl, what kind of damage is he going to do to her, by walking away ? AND reguardless of the circumstances..Will he be able to walk away from a child that is his and he has bonded to ? I know you and your children are innocent. I do understand that and i am sure he knows that as well...A bond with a child is hard to break and if he has it he may not be able to break it for any one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H was just like lemonpie's. He was sneaking to have contact with his D because he knew it would hurt me and he did not want to put me through any more pain. When I found out, and by this time the OC was 8, we tried visitation but the ex-OW made it impossible. She did not want ME in the child's life. My H, on his own, decided to stop all contact. He had bonded with the OC and yet he could not take being torn between two worlds anymore. He pays CS and provides plenty of extra money for extraordinary expenses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess my main concern for all those here who choose this option of no contact is what happens when your spouse can no longer live with no contact. You love him you want to be married, you are learning to forgive, isnt part of that forgiveness, helping him do what he feels he needs to do for the children he has created ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my opinion, the forgiveness is about helping each other understand why things went wrong and helping each other feel comfortable enough to repair the marriage. The OC, although an innocent child, has to be considered AFTER the needs of the marriage. But this is true for children of the marriage as well. The marriage came first, and in strong marriages, the needs of the two parents are met first before they are able to meet their kids' needs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont mean the OW she isnt a concern, but these men longing to see a child they created and feeling so guilty because of abandoning the children, How are they supposed to deal with that.. with out growing to resent you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In some men, that longing is not the same as it is for women. Most men feel responsible and they want the child to have a good life. In many cases, particularly ones we have had on MB, it is the ex-OW who keeps the father involved by guilt-tripping him into believing that the OC misses him and needs to see him.

People give up children for adoption every day, without severe psychological damage. Children grow up perfectly fine in one-parent households. It all depends on the individuals involved. My H gave up contact and I see no sign of resentment, so it is possible. Although there have been one or two on MB that I remember who came back a year later saying their H's changed thier minds about contact and blamed them for no contact. So, it can happen. That is why it is extremely important for the couple to communicate openly and effectively to find out and deal with their hidden desires.

MOMof5, there are so many different scenarios -- a lot depends on the will and character of the people involved. But, basically, the BS's on this board are here to re-commit to and save their marriages. For that to happen, the needs of the married couple should be the main concern.

I hope that helps you to understand at least one BS's point of view - mine! Like you, I am writing my own thoughts to you, not trying to influence anyone or make anyone angry. Just letting you know how it all worked in my case.

love,
heavenly

Gosh lemonpie,
It's like a new d-day for you all over again. I mean, who's to say your H has not been in contact with OC ALL ALONG and is just now having the guts to tell you. Hmmm... I guess that is your whole point...

It's all about the policy of joint agreement. That's how I see your #3 request. Right now, you simply cannot provide "enthusiastic agreement" but with all the changes you have made in the past year, who's to say that cannot happen (a change of heart on your part).

The affair is not what ruins the marriage, it's the dishonesty and deceit. Until your H is willing to follow the Rules of Recovery by NOT being the source of your unhappiness (through LIES & DECEIT), you will not feel secure, trusting, and supportive!!! It's like he is shooting himself in the foot thinking he is protecting you when he is only making matters worse! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Mo5 makes an interesting point about your H possibly growing to resent you if he can't visit his OC... At this point tho, it seems like he is more afraid of losing you--& his family--so he hides OC visitation.

lemonpie, does your H embrace the MB concepts? Perhaps he should read about the Rules of Recovery together with you? Maybe that will help him see better how to "protect" you.

You guys are surviving an affair and with OC in the picture, makes it that much more difficult. Still, the Rules apply and can help! HUGS to you! Be strong in the Lord, you'll get through this. You have come too far to just give up!

Benthere, you are absolutely correct. It's as if I am back to day one.

MOF, those questions you raise, I have asked myself also. I am not a cold, cruel or heartless person. Unlike those who have A, I am one of those people that before I do something I think of the consequences for my actions. Having said that, it is not a day that goes by that I don't think of the OC. Watching my H with our children lets me know how important it is for a child to have a father "FIGURE" in their life. I understand that he could grow to resent me, just as I resent him having the A in the first place. Again, just as I have to deal with unpleasantries(?) resulting from the A, then so does he. They didn't have a problem with keeping it secret before I found out, so I think it should stay that way. JMO

Heavenly, thank you so much for your response, I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I bought the book STA he has not read it. I also started reading men are from mars, women are from venus (very good book), I asked him to read this also and he hasn't. I asked him to go back to counseling, his response was why can't we work out our own problems. I have come to the point where I need to sh.....or get off the potty (smile, my mother used to say this) and now I know what that means. If he doesn't want to do the things I have listed then I don't think he is as committed as I am to restoring the marriage. We will talk tonight because it would be 48 hours later and I will then know where he stands.

Thank you all because I wouldn't be able to get through this without this forum.

heavenly thanks for sharing your thoughts and your story.

Lemonpie
I know there are no easy answers for any one, I just hate to see something bad, turn into something worse,

I know if OM did not want to be in my daughters life openly and honestly, then I would want him to walk out of her life and never return. Because that is what would be best for her. I am glad he loves her and wants to be honest and take care of her. It isnt easy, but we work through most things.. I cant say if it has hurt his marriage or helped it, because he has never told her the whole truth about anything... for that I feel sorry for her. But it is not my business. I do know he told her if she cant learn to deal with having D in her life, then she should leave, because if he was made to choose she would loose.
For me if he chose to leave, I would want nothing from him including support.. My daughter deserves to have the best of everything including parents who love her unconditionally. Just because the act of the affair was wrong, does not mean this beautiful little girl doesnt deserve to have a wonderful life.
and if I have to suffer unpleantries to give that to her.. then so be it.

I dont like dealing with his wife any more than she likes dealing with me... she does it for him and I do it for my daughter... thats all.. of course we would rather not be in each others lives. Does my husband like dealing with either of them NO he does not, but he sure does love our little girl so he does it.
our lives arnt perfect... we all just do what we have to do.

I hope the talk goes as you want it. I just want you to see all sides thats all.. hey I have had days I wish OM would just walk away and leave his responsibilities so I dont have to deal with him.. life would be less complicated.. but those are selfish thoughts on my part, and not out of love for daughter ..so I PUT THEM ASIDE AND IGNORE THEM.
God bless

MOF, You are the WS so I expect these answers from you. Because you are the WS you had a choice as to whether or not to keep C. I feel my H did not have that choice. I am glad for you that you MM and BS have contact with your child, as I said there is not a day that goes by that I don't think of OC. I JUST DON'T THINK OTHER CHILD IS AS IMPORTANT AS MY CHILDREN. After all, the OC is not mine. If my H decides the OC is more important than our marriage or OUR CHILDREN, then so be it. I would then have to accept it or leave and go on with life. I just want by H to be HONEST, so that I CAN NOW HAVE A CHOICE. I mean no disrespect to you MOF. This is just how I feel.

I am not offended I just know that marriages can be saved and compromises can be met, but I understand your need to do what is best for you. I dont think some of these husbands want to say the oc is more important, I think maybe some are just saying the child is important as well. thats all

Hey I could be wrong, maybe it will be better to have no contact, I just dont think mixed messages sent to the children are good, so if there is to be NO contact, then I think it should be NO contact. because surely this little kid deserves that much respect.
instead of confusion. Hope that makes sense, I would hate to think every opinion I had, was just excused as OH she is a ws ignore her lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I do wish you luck, we will just have to agreee to disagree. world would be boring if we all agreed on everything dont you think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MOF, I NEVER WOULD SAY "OH". As a matter of fact, I am so glad you are posting. I know I can get very angry and my emotions run astray. When I read your post as with every post on this forum, it either enlightens me, hurts me or helps me understand better. So please, don"t be offended--PLEASE understand I am the BS so my opinion is somewhat one sided (smile).

Lemonpie,

This has got to be difficult for you. I am praying for you and sending you hugs.

When D-day hit around at my house last year,(after recovering from shock) I sat and listed on paper all the pro's and con's of contact and no contact. I wish I could find my list, as I would share it...it's around somewhere...*sigh*....

In our case, the cons far outweighed the pros. (this is just in our particular situation). I knew that contact with Ex-Ow would end totally and things would have to be arranged through me if we chose to try to have contact. After much discussion, prayer and the DNA results came in, Mr."T" (who all along wanted to adopt OC out.) made the final decision. He does not want to see ex-ow ever again. He considers himself a sperm donor and for OC to be ex-ow's child only as he signed away his rights. (We still pay until or unless the child get adopted).

I struggled with this. I cried. I prayed. I felt really sorry for the child. What makes it worse is that the OC is only two weeks older than "mini-me"...Mr. "T" and my first child together.

I have a reminder every two weeks when I sign that child support check and I have a reminder of every milestone that mini-me goes through that there is another little girl out there that Mr. "T" created in ten seconds flat in lust.

It's a hard decision. But I weighed all options. I know you have and will do the same. I pray for strength and wisdom for you to do what you have to do.

Please keep us posted, as I am praying for you.
Hugs,
Twiisty

We are doing well with no contact and Mr. "T" says I worry more about OC than he does...I guess it's a Mother thing.....That's when I pray and release OC into God's hands.

Twisty, thanks for your response. I honestly don't know what to do. I told a friend the other day that for the first time in my life I feel like I am spiraling out of control. I told her this is the hardest pain I have ever had to deal with. This pain is greater than the death of my mother, whom I loved more than my own life. As I said, I think about the OC everyday, I just don't know what to do. I see myself in a lose, lose situation. If my H wants contact and I don't he will sneak. If I agree to contact then I will remain unhappy. If we decide to divorce, again I lose. I think someone said it best in an earlier post, It needs to be all or nothing. If my H wants contact then we need to let it all out in the open, tell family and friends. If not then the subject should never come up again. OOOH, I just don't know.

For what it is worth, your feelings should be the most important. What you feel is how things should be done. He did the deed and must pay the price. If he wants the OC in his life, he should go public. If you do not want the child in your lives then he should bow to that or be prepared to accept what ever you decide about the marriage. I support the marriage, but you are the only one who knows what you can live with. He disrepected you and your marriage when he got involved with an OW and now he should be a man and do what it takes to keep the marriage intact, even give up his child. What if the OW had put up child for adoption? What would he have done then?
If you agree to his demands, definitely be the one in charge of contact. He has definitely blown the trust in your relationship hasn't he?

Good luck. Do what is best for you and your children. He didn't think of you all when he slept with her did he?

TG

Texasgirl, you are absolutely correct. I say to him all the time IF YOU HAD THOUGHT HALF AS MUCH ABOUT ME AND OUR CHILDREN as you think of this OC from A we would not be in this situation.

That response doesn't do me any good, he shuts down after that.