Hi folks,

Gosh---I would have thought that we had learned here when a poster starts to stir the pot with their first post---please IGNORE IT!!!

And on these very serious and contensious issues like child support, responsiblities, contact/no contact---please understand that there isn't a clear answer to these that sends everyone away as a winner. We all have differing opinions---they can be expressed without attacking one another.

Remember the MB 'tenents':

1. Rule of Protection
2. Rule of Care
3. Rule of Complete Honesty
4. Rule of Time

Those are listed in the order that you work on them in your marriage---if you're counseling with Steve or Jenn. The first thing you must learn is the rule of Protection---elimination of lovebusters---no disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, selfish demands... Complete honesty is a terrific tool, but NOT until you've learned and become accomplished in the Rule of Protection---you must learn to temper that honesty and deliver it without the lovebusters.

This is a great place to practice these rules---there's real-life stress here. Work at it... OK?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As always, K, you are right on the money.

It wouldn't hurt to "practice" these principles and policies right here with one another. I wonder why we are all so quick to jump on certain posters and beat the crap out of them like a rogue gang. I get the mental image of a bunch of women wearing leather and chains, packing heat and brass knuckles, with a cigarette danging from our lower lip.

Must be vengeance by proxy...

While I understand the psychology behind it all, I find I am as guilty as the next when it comes to reactionary stuff. Buttons get pushed and the reaction is forthcoming.

It's weird how I am so careful, kind and loving about what I say to Bipolar but tend to let it rip here, perhaps wounding someone in pain. It isn't nice and I will try to do better and treat others as I would Bipolar and see how that works.

But, it's tough, K. Sometimes it just 'feels' good telling off an OP and pretending it is the OP that has hurt us.

Thanks for the reality slap upside the head.

Catnip =^^=

Hey catnip:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes it just 'feels' good telling off an OP and pretending it is the OP that has hurt us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, no doubt about it. But when you get to that place 'beyond' where you have no need to tell off the OP, and it actaully DOESN'T feel good when you (or someone you see) do it---that's the place that you want to be...

I have no problems whatsoever with dropping a line to Tempest and collegues concerning the booting of trolls, on the other hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wanted to say that when I read that post on the question thread, the one by the original poster, I felt what catnip has been describing for a while now. I felt defensive of Zebra and the others here. I may have gotten bashed over the 4 months I've been here from time to time, but for some reason, I still feel like this is a little family (dysfunction and all) and while we can call it like it is among ourselves, I didn't like that someone came along and said those things to to one of us.
I have been trying to not jump in at threads just because they stir emotion in me. I've ignored alot of it. When I do, I try to share my opinion in a way that is not harsh when I don't agree with the poster. I really don't believe in the us v. them attitude as it continues to drive a wedge on this board and disrupts everyone.
The orginal poster is probably laughing at us right now. She is gone and we're fighting among ourselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Hey catnip:

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, no doubt about it. But when you get to that place 'beyond' where you have no need to tell off the OP, and it actaully DOESN'T feel good when you (or someone you see) do it---that's the place that you want to be...

</strong>[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with this wholeheartedly...and some of these ladies that post who were the OW have helped me get there.

It makes me sick to see them attacked for doing nothing more than their attackers are doing, voicing an OPINION...which can you can take or leave.And to see the attacker be defended and excused ...ugh...

Let's pretend it is 1967 and it is the Summer of Love, make some brownies and be tolerant of one another. By now we have all gotten to know each other pretty well to the point where we can be more tolerant and generous of one another. Let's try to make each other feel better instead of worse. Personally, I have developed an affection and respect for Cmiranda and WIB and others and I like feeling this way and have a new understanding of others as I watch them evolve.

I guess we are some kind of a grotesque sorority/fraternity of sorts and the newbies that represent unpleasant things for us are initially put through a kind of a "hazing".

Well, everyone has survived all this. There are some here who are having some emotional problems and sometimes we say bizarre illogical things and pick fights. There are the peacemakers (blessed are...) like K, Heavenly, Mary Janes, Jenny, who am I forgetting? There are so many, and so many more of those. And then there are those who just like to shoot off their mouth (me).

I am learning so much lately.

Catnip =^^=

I can say I have learned alot from all, and it has made me a better persona nd more tolerant of someone I do not like.
so it isnt all bad.

I think we have to learn there are those who will never be able to move past the anger and when you wake up and feel nothing for the op and the situation and can just ignore triggers then you will know peace is on the horizon.

We all have triggers even those who are a ws... while not an ideal situaion, they must get through the emotions that are so strong in them as well. I still have trigers that make me angry, but I ignore them and they go away.. but they are still there, some from many years ago..

I really feel as though we can all support each other.. there is no reason that cant happen.. I do not take any ones situation here as personal..

Maybe we should stop pointing fingers ... as my mom always said there are three pointing back at you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Catnip,
Thank you for trying to diffuse the situation on the other thread. I know many of the women here have great respect for you and it's nice to see you take the position of peacemaker. I also hate to say I told you so but..... Once an OW always an OW. It doesn't bother me though. I am happy with who I am. I can admit to my mistakes and I have made peace within myself. I didn't get nearly as nasty as I would have a month ago. I have learned alot.

Notice how we got so riled up by someone who only came in to instigate trouble, not to look for support or healing?

Why is it that it is so much easier to react to negative, inflammatory statements than to the supportive statements we get here every day? Some of those threads only get one or two posts, this nasty one got three pages.

Still a student of human nature (and a victim lol)
EJ

Catnip,

What if we can't recall 1967?!! Just kidding, I say lets start baking! Too funny..

Most of us are learning and we are growing into better, stronger, more tolerant and loving people. I know I am, and for that, I owe my gratitude and sincere thanks to so many of the Betrayed and Waywards here who have shown me that I am not alone and that there is hope for a better life.

CM

Hmmmmmmmm.....1967??? I wasn't a gleam in my mama and papa's eye until 1969.....

I have grown fond of this board and all our regulars in it...I have learned alot also.

We are all in this journey together...I got all y'alls back if y'all got mine....

Hugs and prayers to y'all.....

Twiisty
(who's still amazed that she has a phone still... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Coming from the "original poster", I never intended to start trouble or anything else. I am not laughing at anyone. In fact, I'm really appalled at what's going on at the other board. I asked a simple question to 1 person and many other people jumped in and attacked me. I didn't attack anyone; I never wrote 1 profane word, called anybody out of their name or judged anybody's character! Yet, things are being said about me that are way off-base and I'm not even going there to respond to it! I read and re-read my post and don't see why offense was taken and if you look at the 2nd page, at this point, its no longer about me but whoever and whoever is having a war of words with each other! I'm simply trying to understand where one is coming from! If I offended you, I apologize.

luscious:

Here's the deal. Of all the forums on MarriageBuilders, this is the most sensitive. It's the worse of the worse in terms of dealing with a marital problem.

You came and pushed a bunch of buttons with your first post (intentional or not). No introduction of yourself, nothing about what brings you to Marriagebuilders, zip about the marital problems you're here to solve.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">its no longer about me but whoever and whoever is having a war of words with each other</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely correct. That's how touchy this part of the MB site can be. And historically, we've had mean-spirited people flit over here and lob a couple verbal 'grenades' in terms of their attempt to understand the "situation", very similar to what ended up here today.

If you're here with a real problem in your marriage, especially related to infidelity and dealing with a child born from this situation---tell us about it, and we'll do our best to guide you using MB principles. This is a terrific group of compassionate (and passionate) people, even if it gets a bit hot at times. But... if the above situation isn't where you are, then you don't belong here (in this forum, at least)---and I'd ask you respectfully to leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Catnip,

What if we can't recall 1967?!! Just kidding, I say lets start baking! Too funny..
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Groan...I can't stand it. You're all a bunch of puppies, aren't you?

My immaturity keeps me young, though.

Catnip =^^=

I recall 1967 very well catnip... My mom was divorced and took us kids to a "love in" at Griffith Park in L.A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I didn't get "hip" to the brownies until the 70s!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> lol!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Thanks K for reminding us to stay focused on our MBing.

At least you were potty-trained by 1967, BTDT. If you are going to San Francisco...be sure to wear some flowers in your hair... And what are you doing cruising this site at 3 AM? Too much caffeine? Restless? I thought I was the only one haunting the forum in the wee hours.

I have so much on my mind right now. I am trying to determine if taking out a loan at a higher percentage rate (because of the bankruptcy...so embarrassing) to fix up my house to make it more valuable/livable or just move into it and fix it up over a period of years as we go along, living in a mess and paying as I go.

I admit to the need/desire for instant gratification right now and my deep desire to see the place creme-puffed out for personal satisafaction and a pride quotient but struggle with putting myself into a financial situation. I mean, what if Bipolar looses his job or starts to drink again? What if, what if, what if?

The only bills we have are house payment and utilities and the outrageous CS. I know we can do this, I am just worried.

So, I am on patrol every night, restless and unable to sleep until I am so exhausted I just literally pass out.

I have to stop crashing other people's threads. Bad habit.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ July 26, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Catnip,

I was curious if you don't mind my asking, does your H go to AA meetings? My H has been sober for 6 1/2 years and he goes to at least 1 AA meeting a week. I think for him, it's his salvation. I thought I read where you said that your H had been sober for years then started drinking again and that is when the A happened. How long had he been sober? It is easy for us who don't have substance addictions to take their sobriety for granted. Very scary stuff.

Depending on what type of work you are looking to have done in your home, the technical school kids are pretty good with carpentry, plumbing, Heating/cooling but they don't carry insurance so you'd be responsible for that end of it. You can save thousands using them instead of a licensed pro.

<small>[ July 26, 2002, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

I cringed when I read your question because NO, Bipolar does not go to AA, (and should) though he has attended more AA meetings over the past two decades than you can imagine. But, right now, he just sees his shrink and meditates and prays, which ironically seems to work for him.

He was sober nearly 18 years when he started drinking again in 1998. What astonished me was the instantaneous change in his personality and the sabotage that came at lightening speed...almost like a death wish or a weird kind of 'suicide' without actually pulling the trigger. But, the counselors at Hazelden say this is what bipolar disease is all about.

The alcohol exaccerbated/resurrected the disease and made it grotesque and exaggerated where during the 18 years of sobriety, it was pretty much dormant except for a few curious and unexplanable and benign behaviors, mostly borderline obsessive collecting of vintage vehicles, beginning their restoration, then abandoning the project to purchase yet another vintage vehicle and begin the same process of commencement to abandonment. At one point in the summer of '98 just a couple months before the onset of the A, within a span of four months, Bipolar collected 11 vehicles in various stages of disrepair and were scattered throughout the city and in our driveway, garage and at our office.

During his sobriety, he attended AA sporatically but really, really hated it and eventually stopped going. I DID take his sobriety for granted because his drinking was a non-issue because it just never happened and he wasn't even remotely interested in it. Besides, I am not much of a drinker and we didn't have it in the house except when my Mom visited.

Bipolar seemed so content and happy and grateful for his sobriety and would often comment that our lives were so good he never thought about drinking and was afraid that if he started he wouldn't be able to stop. They say alcoholics will always have another drink in them but might not have another sobriety in them, especially if they fall off the wagon after a long sobriety like his.

But, something is different this time. I "think" and hope that this time might work. Bipolar seems to be leaving his remorse behind and I believe it was his devastating remorse that kept him from maintaining sobriety throughout our attempts at recovery over the past four years.

Thanks so much for the tip on trade school geeks...I will call some of the institutes today and research possibilities. We've been in that house almost ten years and aside from the first year of major refurbishment, we have done nothing because our business demanded all our time, then the drinking took up so much time and money and then the A and OC expenses. I am simply tired of waiting for a change...besides I don't know if I can go back to that house unless it is changed somehow.

The past four years sometimes encroach on my feelings of elation about our new beginning when ever we are there. Last night we went to our house to check out what needed to be done. The house is entirely empty but I had this weird hallucination when he was standing in our bedroom looking for cracks in the ceiling. I was standing in the doorway and I imagined that first night he came home drunk off the plane from his first encounter when he stood in our bedroom, skunky drunk and began to cry, "I just ruined the best thing that ever happened to me". He then passed out, fully dressed in his suit and slept on the floor all night.

Later while still at the house he remarked, "My keys don't fit the lock", forgetting I changed the locks the second weekend he was with her. (That was the night I also found his SUV in the club's parking lot and deliberately ran my own car into his while enraged and crazed, backing up and then hitting it again)

When he said that, I remembered how he called me from his cell phone in the middle of the night from our garage unable to get in after returning from the airport from his weekend, saying his keys aren't working and my reply that I had the locks changed while he was "_______________".

So, just being in my old house triggered the bullets to ricochet all over the place and I am surprised I was able to get through the entire evening without one sarcastic remark. This kitty cat gets her ears scratched for being good.

I tell you, I look at him and my heart goes out to him now. I have witnessed a man come back from the brink of total destruction and pull himself back to a place where recovery for him is not only possible but probable. I have a lot of respect for that and for him for never giving up when it would have been easier to do so. Uh, I know this is probably an understatement, but I am not the easiest person on the planet to live with (don't smirk) and he might have recovered a lot faster if he would'nt have had to deal with my insanity over the last four years. God, that man has paid.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The alcohol exaccerbated/resurrected the disease and made it grotesque and exaggerated where during the 18 years of sobriety, it was pretty much dormant except for a few curious and unexplanable and benign behaviors, mostly borderline obsessive collecting of vintage vehicles, beginning their restoration, then abandoning the project to purchase yet another vintage vehicle and begin the same process of commencement to abandonment. At one point in the summer of '98 just a couple months before the onset of the A, within a span of four months, Bipolar collected 11 vehicles in various stages of disrepair and were scattered throughout the city and in our driveway, garage and at our office. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man Catnip.....reading that was like living with my first Husband all over again!!!!!

He did the same thing with cars, only instead of vintage, he did muscle cars. He also had three major career changes before he settled on what he originally wanted to do....

Now I have to see that manifested in my firstborn child....we have GOT to get in touch via e-mail....

Hugs and prayers to everybody....
Twiisty

K: I see that! I see how sensitive and raw the emotions still are! Also, I'm new to this! I don't really know how these things work or that you expected a story first or at least, an introduction! However, I respectfully decline the offer to leave because that is a unfounded judgement call on me and is not valid until you have really stepped over the line! I figured everyone here was over their problems but I see that the drama is still raw to many! Good luck!