</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The truth is that W and exOW don't ever have to like each other, in fact, they may strongly dislike each other. Is it hard on the child? Yup, but it is reality and to put a false face on it seems to be to be a disservice to everyone. When the time comes that the child questions it, my answer would be "Precious, your dad and I love you. You are the sweetest little girl we could imagine but your mommy and I are not friends. We don't like each other and it is best for all of us that we don't pretend to like each other. I only invite my friends to my house."

Mo5, I am happy it is working out so well for you and that you are all able to make this work. Do you think your H is more accommodating because he has had multiple affairs? If I had wandered as far from the path as my H did, I might not feel so justified in my opinion of exOW. Really not intending any offense; just asking. I actually have wondered if you (not M05, just anyone) had already cheated on your spouse if it hurts less if your spouse cheats back. It seems you certainly have less ground to stand on. Ooooh good thread.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dont think the wives and the other women should buddies nor do I feel that OM should be friends with my husband.. I do feel we should all be polite and being polite and respectful is all we do.. I have to teach all my children to be respectful of OM and his wife.. why!? Because their baby sister whom they love dearly now loves these two people and I will never make my daughter feel she is not welcome to bring her father or stepmother into her home...That love is not pretend.. The love for my daughter is very real and I compromise a great deal in order to show that love to my children.

I dont see that as decieving her.. she will one day be old enough to be aware of the facts.. Does that mean we should say WE love you but Your daddy[husband] and I do not want your father around here because he hurt our family very much? Should i make her feel that way. My husband would certainly meet the requirement to do that.. Is he less entittled to that because he is also a ws.. I dont think so. Did it hurt less.NOPE hurts just as much. But we are several years into dealing with issues and working out these things.. didnt happen over night.

Matthew.. I read your post on the other site.. gloryb interesting seems you like to throw this stuff out there and see what happens.. HUH Guess it has made for some interesting conversations.. I especially like the way you tried to play into the ow on the other site so they would talk to you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

so no offense taken, I see things from a different point of view one that has made my life better.

Stacia,
thanks for feedback. There is much room for improvment in our situation, so maybe I'll suggest this approach and see what she says.

mo5,

Here I go being sensitive again but, I feel like you are diminishing my experiences, pain and desire to vent to the level of "throwing this stuff out there to see what happens". Pardon me, but I don't have the luxury of sitting in a counselor's office and crying when issues snowball me like the one I discussed in my original post.
I needed to vent and get some things off my chest and went where I knew I'd find a common thread. (MB site). I also use this board as a tool to keep from having to discuss every single ugly feeling I have with my H. I think he deserves some diginity and breathing romm while he continues to work on being whole and complete for our family and lil lady. So I bring it here.

As far as posting to TOW, I do not play into the ow...I don't have time to be that crafty and figure out just what to say to get them to open up. I say what I mean and stand on it, trust me, my current family situation does not lend itself very well to straddling the fence or playing games, not even in the cyber-arena.

btw...call me paranoid, but I get the sense that you're trying to analyze me or my motives. I'd like to think for my 30 something years on this earth that I've been through enough experiences in life to become a complex and diverse human being, subject to life's ups and downs just like the next person. As such, I am uniquely shaped to deliver my points of view whether you agree with them or not. Also, I am not subject to being analyzed within the framework of a few messages to anonymous people. So, with that said, leave the analysis to my counselor ok?

btw, thanks for the advice on the designated pick up/drop off.

One last note...your comment about TOW site does bring up another interesting point. In a situation like this, I have no choice but to somehow compassionatley understand what she's (xow)going through, but at the same time preserve my right to being a wife (in every sense of the word). Talk about a tight-rope act. So when I do visit and post, I don't do it to find a cozy spot, I do it to understand their pain, but also help them see some things from the other side.

MO5, we don't have to be cyber-buddies, but limit your observations and comments only to what I post about the situation. Don't try to figure out my motives. I can think of far more interesting subjects to ponder.

Respectfully,

MM

Dear matthew,
I don't know if your xOW is single or married, but my advice to you--coming from a former (single) OW... I wouldn't knowingly let her step foot in my house either!!! And as quiet as it's kept, she may have even been there already!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I hope not, but how would you ever know for sure if your H maybe kept it a secret from you, you know, to "protect your feelings"... ???

I am not a WS or a BS, but if I found myself in your predicament, there is no way the OW would be one big happy family with me and my family. Not because I wouldn't care about the OC, and not because I would be insecure about my recovery, but because it wouldn't be comfortable for me having her anywhere near my H ever, ever, EVER again. It's one thing to have some new OP enter the picture where you can't control your spouses' decision to protect THEMSELVES, but this is one OP that you can control your boundaries with!!!

Not only would there be a neutral pick-up and drop-off spot, my H would be nowhere NEAR that spot... ever...

IMHO, and granted, NOT speaking from the experience that you all have, I feel that I would be protecting my marriage and my sanity and my space, not because I know what it is to be a BS or a WS, but because I have been an OW... I support your decision. I don't believe you are insecure in the least. I believe you are protecting what's yours from someone who couldn't have cared less.

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

p.s. And I mean no disrespect to you Mo5, not at all, I'm just not sure if Dr.Harley would recommend working out a POJA with the OP and then try to have the BS go along with it... I think it should be the other way around: POJA with your spouse, then outsiders comply... Following the Rule of Protection means we are concerned about what makes our spouses feel the most comfortable, right?

Mo5, you have things worked out to where you guys are putting way more of your adult feelings aside than someone like me probably would. I don't know if that is commendable or outrageous, but where does one draw the line? Gotta draw the line somewhere dontcha???

After all, the adults were here before the kids and, all things being equal, the adults will still be there after the kids leave...

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> p.s. And I mean no disrespect to you Mo5, not at all, I'm just not sure if Dr.Harley would recommend working out a POJA with the OP and then try to have the BS go along with it... I think it should be the other way around: POJA with your spouse, then outsiders comply... Following the Rule of Protection means we are concerned about what makes our spouses feel the most comfortable, right?

Mo5, you have things worked out to where you guys are putting way more of your adult feelings aside than someone like me probably would. I don't know if that is commendable or outrageous, but where does one draw the line? Gotta draw the line somewhere dontcha???

After all, the adults were here before the kids and, all things being equal, the adults will still be there after the kids leave...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTDT
I can appreciate what you think of it.. It doesnt bother me. I didnt have the privaledge of all these concepts through my marriage. But I didnt go against my husband in this decision.. I discussed it with him first... in the begining... he did not want to deal with om.. I begged pleaded.. He insisted that is was something I had to do and that I was hurting him by asking him to participate...BUT HE ALSO MADE THE DECISION THAT yes IF tHE BIO F WANTED TO BE IN HER LIFE HE HAS THAT RIGHT AND IF IT WERE HIM.. HE SURE WOULD... oops sorry caps [i am not yelling] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I felt insisting he go with me to show that united front was a great idea.. but what he agreed on was that yes we should let her and yes I should take care of it.. in time that has changed, he now participates and even has lunches with om and d.. His decision not mine.. You see he has known OM almost as long as I have they are not strangers.

I have never said this was perfect people but I can be sure that I would rather have it this way, I dont get angry over things as much husband doesnt either.. Things are quite pleasant and happy in my home.. I dont think I could say that for 15 years// SO I say It must be doing some good for these grownups involved to be putting there children emotion first...

For the most part my husband feels that if om is going to play the role of father than he better step up to the plate and do it.. He also feels this man has a right as long as he is loving and caring for our daughter to help make decisions and those decisions should come from me and OM..I however run all by my husband... My husband is the kind of man who works 80 hours a week and lets me handle everything else, That means I take care of all activities for kids, I take care of all bills, relatives in need, I take care of things he needs for work, I do all the cooking , all the cleaning, all errands, take the vehicles in for getting worked on, all insurance matters, and I work from home as well. I also for the last 16 years have been the pretty much the one and only person who has taken care of the children.
He works and a hard worker he is... But he doesnt like to make decisions and someone has to... so I do it.. we are in agreement that if someone doesnt something will fall apart..

I dont walk in the door and say OM is doing this if you dont like it tuff.... I say om wants to know if it is ok if he gets d this day for whatever and husband usually says I guess or NO I wanted to go do this..
Maybe steve harley wouldnt agree.. But the one thing steve harly would notice is we are not fighting at all with each other anymore over this issue. SO I would say that was progres. Does it need work sure it does, How about a little POJA on taking out that garbage or helping cook dinner once in a while.. or God for bid miss a night of fishing or day of golf and help me at home. Now there is where we can use poja. If I got some help Like that.. I would be one happy wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

By the way you know how the wives here get angry when OW makes demands or says no to them about the oc, because the wife of the om thinks her husband should have all these rights and she is an adult and should just tough it out.. get over it grow up.....well If I was another woman like that and being that way and his poor wife was on here crying I am a witch because I let my husband make all the decisions.. You people would be telling her. HE HAS NO RIGHT it isnt his baby.. Your husband has those rights. .....

Know what I think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I think I am damned if I do damned if I dont.
Where does one draw the line... hmm if it makes me or my husband uncomfortable we draw the line.. if it would put any of my children in danger or make them sad.. we draw the line.. if it hurts our marriage we draw the line..

My marriage is better now, we cant be all wrong about what is working for us.. Your right the adults will still be here hopefully when the kids leave. But when they leave they will have left from a home that doesnt fight and argue all the time and around people who care about them.
POJA means policy of joint agreement... it doesnt mean only if steve harley agrees with it... it means if husband and wife agree... AND THIS HUSBAND AND WIFE AGREE THIS IS BEST FOR US AND OUR CHILDREN. [not yelling] making a point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But thanks for your thoughts.. By the way we tried the dip Husband said it was wonderful.

You are a busy mom! Thanks for explaining because I couldn't agree with you more on where to draw that line... it is all about what's best for the marriage.

In Matthew's case, what will be best for her marriage is to avoid OW being in the vicinity of her home. Doesn't mean that the OC has to understand why until OC is old enough and when OC IS old enough, I'm SURE OC will understand why. MY OC certainly understands why there was no contact...

And there was no way I was going to force myself into their family photo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You are right, the POJA is done within the marriage, I guess what threw me off is where you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by momof5:
<strong>My husband didnt want OM in his house.. why should he.. But he knows whats best for our daughter is to not see all the turmoil of raising a child in this way..

I think I shall thank OM'S wife and MY husband for agreeing with om and I how this should be done.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the further explanation. The POJA is about negotiating what is comfortable for both partners and taking all feelings into consideration. Maybe now that you are becoming more familiar with the concepts and your H is willing to read some stuff, it would be a good time to revisit the EN questionnaire??? Maybe get some help with your need for domestic support and recreational companionship!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You must admit mo5, your situation is VERY unique. One big happy family with BS, OW, OM and OC--OMG! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Makes me question MY Christianity cuz I know I could not rise to that level of politeness--not unless God did a huge, major miracle transformation in my attitude! But clearly, you have stated that your marriage came from hell and back.

I'm certain I would be standing exactly in Matthew's shoes on this issue, right down to not wanting to smell the OW's scent in my house. The only scent of a woman in my house will be MINE. Would not, could not no matter what... Birthday parties with the families? Pffft! Yeah, right! You think OM's wife would enjoy that dip recipe too??? j/k OMIGOSH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I believe we can forgive, just takes time to forget. I'm one of those who tends to remember things... I don't know that I would easily forget if my H slept with someone else and created a baby. EVEN THO, I did it myself to another woman's marriage. But that is probably why I feel so strongly about protecting my marriage today.

If it's working for you, then hey, go for it! Whatever works--I say, WORK IT! And if it just won't work, then FAGETABOUTIT!

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

one big happy family YUCK OK NOW i AM SICK... I am not saying one big happy family... at first we all had some adustment to this.. h didnt want om in his house, I didnt want his wife in my house, I dsint want om to take my baby arond his wife... his wife did not want to even look at my baby and we both hated each other.om didnt want my husband making decisions for his daughter even though he had not brought her out in the open <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . but we have made great changes and matured and worked our butts off and now all these things happen because of agreement between all of us.... and each of our spouse agree he and I are the parents and make most of the decisions together.. thats all.

I was thinking I might take that dip to the birthday party <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> why not its my daughter to... besides she doesnt cook, he does it all.

we only practce poja in my house because I compromise to what I am willing to give on.... but it is a start.. my husband thinks all of this stuff is silly and makes fun of it.

Hey I can relate to the anger that goes along with this stuff.. I remember not to long ago my husband had been where he shouldnt have been and when he came home I burned every last piece of clothing he had worn if the truck wasnt brand new I would have torched it as well....... see I have evil thoughts as well. we laugh at it now but sure wasnt funny then.

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

btdt

I dont think I could be as accomadating to all this if I were having to deal with the same things.. no I wouldnt like it if my husband fathered someone elses child, especially when I didnt have a child with him. But I didnt like all the many times husband cheated on me either and didnt like some of the crazy people he brought into my life during his selfish years...

But you see I didnt force these people to become invloved, I gave them a choice... they hadnt paid a dime and I didnt ask them to... if he wanted to walk away then I wanted him to and to stay gone, but since they didnt ... this is what we got.. I dont know if he screams over all this inbetween all the visits,, i dont ask.. maybe she hates it.. but her husband loves it so she does it... but that isnt my issue.. so I dont worry about it... what they do is none of my business unless it involves my child... They seem to like this way better.. but you should know... I never contact her on my own... she does all the emailing and I just answer.. if I send email to there home I adress it to both of them...
I havent been to there house in months... why I have no reason to want to be there. They come to my house about once a week on average.. He has even picked up my older son and brough him home from school before, which was a little shocking..

He also thinks he has to do for the other kids to make sure they know he cares about them... I keep telling him he doesnt have to that is my husbands place, but he keeps trying and I think it bothers his wife as well... so there that is a gripe we have not solved like one big happy family
and personally from the looks of this bourd.... I dont think there are very many happy functional families in this world with no problems what so ever...

and why am I always trying to be nice... because my mother seemed to have instilled that into us... she is the most amazing woman I know and she is kind to every single person no matter what. I have seen it a dozen times and when you grow up seeing that every single day, you learn to do it as well.. dont get me wrong, om and husband have both reffered to me a B . I have my moments. But I try most of the time...
and if that woman can put her crap aside and be kind to my daughter and respect that I am her parent.. no matter how much I dislike her.. how can I not respect her for that...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the further explanation. The POJA is about negotiating what is comfortable for both partners and taking all feelings into consideration. Maybe now that you are becoming more familiar with the concepts and your H is willing to read some stuff, it would be a good time to revisit the EN questionnaire??? Maybe get some help with your need for domestic support and recreational companionship!!! BTDT
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a good idea, except I have been telling him these same needs for 18 years, he is catching on slowly... but I think I have to know he may never change and make my decisions on that

<small>[ August 02, 2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

So Matthew how are you doing today? Any better? I hope so... Please post an update...

Did you ever find out why xOW is/was so anxious to come to your house? Do you think she is still trying to hit on your H?? Or do you think it was more of wanting to inspect your house to see if it is a suitable environment for OC???

She sounded like she REALLY wanted to see your house... I'm glad you enforced your boundaries...

Hi BTDT,

No, she never went into much explanation. I think she started to explain herself during our first conversation but I cut her off because I was taken aback by her approach....she didn't ask if it was ok to come to the house, she asserted herself as though I would just comply with her wish.
I think she feels like because her daughter is here, that she has carte blanch (sp?) to do what she wants. That somehow she has access whether we like it or not. I didn't mention this in my original post but a previous weekend that we had lil mama, she called my house six times on a Saturday. At first, I saw her # on caller id and thought I'd call her back after I got the children fed and ready for the day. But she immediatley, without hesitation called my house back four more times in two hours. Needless to say I ignored her calls and made up my mind right then and there that she would have to be whipped into shape....(understand the boundaries that exist whether she liked them or not).

She just hasn't accepted the reality that she has to let go when the baby is in our care...and I'm not the least bit interested in making the transition smoother for her. I've stretched and bent over backwards enough for lil mama and my H. Sorry, can't do it for her. She has to heal on her own time and in her own way.
We'll see what happens next week, thanks for asking!

Matthew,
I just want to lend my support to your upholding the boundaries; I hope your H is helping hold them up too!!!!~ Dealing with people who trample all over normal boundaries induces IN-SANITY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Mo5, I think the difference in your situation is that each adult (that's FOUR!) can be mature enough to set aside fairly minor differences, respect boundaries, and come to mutual agreements even if you don't like each other. As you well know (I hope) by now, many of the adults in these situations are not capable of doing that. When we have to deal with immature, boundary-trampling individuals (who already have a history of trying to destroy the marriage), it's not hard to decide no-contact is best not only for the marriage but ALSO the OC! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Just the sad reality. I could give more examples of how insane our XOW is...

Prayers for all,
J

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At first, I saw her # on caller id and thought I'd call her back after I got the children fed and ready for the day. But she immediatley, without hesitation called my house back four more times in two hours. Needless to say I ignored her calls and made up my mind right then and there that she would have to be whipped into shape....(understand the boundaries that exist whether she liked them or not).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matthew, I can understand a lot about what you are saying but the above I do not get. What if there had been some kind of emergency. Or if she had forgotten to mention something important about the child that you should know while she is in your care. I know that when xOM takes my D for extended periods of time that I always call to check and see how she's doing. I very often forget to tell him things and end up calling him right after he's walked in his door. It's about my D, not him. You are a mother, correct? Would you not do these same things for your own children? What if someone was watching your child and you called to check up and knew that they were sitting there letting the phone ring? I'm not saying to give the xOW complete control as she does seem to have gone over board a little here but shutting her out completely is not the answer either. You do need to set bounderies but they need to be reasonable. Ignoring her phone calls while you have her child is not reasonable to me. JMHO

WIB,
we have an answering machine.

By her third call, she'd finally left the message that she was going to work and wanted to know how lil mama was doing.

That's it...that's all. Besides, if it was an emergency, why didn't she contact my H's cell phone. We asked that in those cases that she call him directly, otherwise call the house.

I have no problem with her calling my home to check in. I would do the same. But if I were to not get an answer I'd leave a message and trust that if there were an emergency, that whoever had my child would call me. Which is what we all agreed we'd do.

I hear you, but the bottom line is she still has to let go.

Besides,

On more than one occassion she's made it a habit to call a couple of times a day.

There's a lot of room for improvement in this process, WIB. And I'm not saying it can't take place on both sides. I just think we'll all have to sit down and have a boundary discussion.

I repsect her right to know her child is fine. I agree and would do the same. But I also want her to excercise her right within reason, not at the expense of our personal space and TIME W/ LIL MAMA. That's another issue I'm concerned about...the whole PAL syndrome....but that's another thread alltogether.

Thanks for the objective pov.

and yes Jenny,

I couldn't agree more....prayers for all.

what is pal syndrome.. for those of us who dont get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:
<strong>...we have an answering machine.

By her third call...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh so repeatedly ringing your phone (regardless of the reason), is supposed to FORCE you to pick up?!!

What I didn't get is how come she couldn't just leave her message the first time and then patiently wait for the call to be returned. She was just looking for a reason to call your home, Matthew, IMO. IF something was wrong with the baby--xOW would have been at the very top (TOP) of the list of people to be informed! Come on, now...

What would have been interesting is after you noticed her name on the caller ID would have been to call her right back and ask her what the heck she wanted? That also prevents people from hanging up on your machine in the future... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ August 06, 2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

MO5,

I got the acronym wrong...I meant PAS...Parental Alienation Syndrome.

I'm sure you've heard of it. There a quite a few sites out there regarding the subject. It occurs quite often in situations where one parent has some resentment towards the other parent and either actively or passivley passes that resentment on to the child.
The child picks up on the negativity and begins to treat the other parent the same way...often times without reasons of their own.

It happens with both custodial and non-custodial parents...

The looser is the child in the end result. They miss out on the opportunity to have a healthy (whatever that means <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) relationship with both parents because of one parent's hang ups.

I'm very concerned about that here. Not only w/ xow as the alienator, but even with my H as the potential alienator. I'd hate for any of us to pass on mess this mess!
grrrrr!!

btdt...

I probably would have started out pretty calm and then said something I regretted.
I'm just glad my H wasn't there. He would have had a fit!