I don't know how to start this one, I have tried for 2 nights to post. I am so ashamed at what happened with us this weekend, and I am sure that I have done more harm to our recovery than ever...
I share this today b/c you all are here, and can understand the feelings leading up to this, but I do not have to look any of you in the face and see the reactions...
It all started Fri at MC and I swore that I was not going to bring up the whole "baby obssession" I have within me. I began by answering her questions as to what I felt has been changing for us, and I feel that alot has. But I blew it to bits. After I told him and the MC how I realized all he was doing, I also said that I was feeling as if my life is being put on hold. She asked how and I said that with our needing to move (since he is always traveling)and the market being as slow as it is, I feel that it is going to take forever. And I want to move as soon as possible b/c I am lonely, the kids miss their Dad, and I am tired of having only 2 days with him to try to have family time, social time, working on the house time, and healing the marriage time. After that I had said that I also felt that if he was waiting to move to have a baby, or for whatever reason to wait to have one, I feel that is is unfair that he says, "I want things better, but even if they get better I can't guarantee we will have another." At the end of therapy I just lost it, sobbing and saying that I am so tired of stuffing all these feelings inside. I promised that I would not bring it up as much and I had only talked about it once in about a month,and it just hit a head.
Anyway, the drive home was silent. When he asked me what I was thinking I told him that "I feel that I had just ruined any hope of ever having another. And it was caused by me which makes it hurt even more." He answered "You don't know that." The rest of the night we had people around and then I went shopping for school clothes for the kids and fell asleep from exhaustion.
On Sat. we talked and it got reallly honest and heated. He explained his points of view and I mine. It is all so much to get into in a post but I will try. He is unsure of having another for many reasons. It will take away from what we can offer our other children and make family outings harder.It will increase my stress, create more work for me, and he feels since I am having a hard time getting organized now...basically I feel he doesn't think that I can handle it. He also feels that ALTHOUGH I have made some positive changes in our recovery and am showing that I am working toward forgiveness, our relationship is not that much better than 2 years ago.(???) He has also informed me that if we were to do it it would need "to be quickly, b/c he doesn't want to be 40 and have an infant. He says I am being selfish and only thinking of myself. That there are no sacrafices I will need to make if we do have a baby whereas everyone else in my family will.
I feel this insatiable need for another child. I know it will be more work for me and I do KNOW that I can handle it. I know that I can procrastinate...(I used to be much more organized)and if I didn't have this issue on my mind nearly every day, I would probably be more motivated to do what I have been putting off(filing old bills, sorting out clothes,cleaning out the attic, and all the small projects that I have bought thre things for and never complete.) I do not look at this as a cure all but I do know that it is on my mind 24/7. The wonder that if it will never happen regardless of how we are in our marriage is non-stop. But I do know that it has always been a dream for me to have a large family, and we could do it. He feels like a sperm donor, and a money-machine. I told him I love him and need this with HIM. I need the reconnection with him and feel that since this is what was lost for us at the revaltion of the affair,in so many respects, it feels a way for me to reconnect to him.
You all know that I was pregnant with our 1st son when I got the papers in the mail revealing his affair and the fact that she had his son 2 months earlier. Most of you pulled me out of the rubble as I posted how I couldn't set up my sons nursery, my sisters did the whole thing. The first year of his life was spent getting into therapy, Retrovaille, and beginning chip away at the road to recovery.
Saturday, when he said this,I lost it. He told me that we are never going to have another, that I have pushed him to the limit. I have shown that I cannot handle stress, that I am unorganized, and that I can't move forward. I have just "wasted" the two years with the empty promises that I will try to change/forgive and that I have taken baby steps...
He is upset that it takes me to hit rock bottom to find the motivation to change. Just before the affair I asked him to promise me that he would tell me if he was that far out the dooor to want to leave, and he says that for years we had been fighting and when we are desparate I find the need to change. He feels it is repeating now b/c here he has told me it is done now, there is no baby in the future, and I lost it...
I was beside myself, not myself, watching myself from the side of the room as I begged him for another chance. I was crying, following him, blocking him from leaving the room. I felt desperate and was sobbing, begging ,begging ,begging. "I'll do better, I'll get the things done, please don't say no, give me another chance..." I kept repeating it...I was what one would say...hysterical. He was trying to get away from me as I tried to hug him and he just kept saying "No! Don't touch me, and the issue is closed, go do what you have to do to resolve it in your heart to move on."
Before this a friend of my daugters had called to see if tmy girls could come over to swim. He said I was in no shape to go and he would bring them, I pleaded no, I can't stay in these 4 walls and after nearly having to push me out of the bathroom, I was able to calm down enough and get into the shower to take them.
We finally left it that we would talk later.
My oldest wound up sleeping over I had to come back to get her things. It was so cold...
I came home again after dropping her things off and then I calmly looked at him and asked him if we could set a boundry, if you will. We will work on things until January and if he feels that we are better, than we can discuss it,but he has also told me that I shouldn't get my hopes up, and that I needed to promise him that if he says no that I will need to prepare on how to deal with that.
He left Mon am at 3 am for a trip and since it has been business as usual, he moves ahead without anything on his mind for 6 months, and I need to find a way to prove to him that I am not unstable, that I need to prepare for the most likely loss of my dream meanwhile holding on to the last bit of hope I have in my heart that he willl want to be the one to make my dream come true.

I have been going over this whole incident in my mind. All I did was make things worse for me. I showed my instability, he can use it against me at anytime he chooses. I also feel resentful for the upperhand he has in this, and am afraid if he says no the resentment will just grow, b/c yes, I am still hopeful. And I am so ashamed of my actions on Sat. That has never happened to me. I cried that hard only two times in my life, the day my mom died and the day of discovery. I cannot look at myself in the mirror without disappointment and am surprised if he isn't disappointed with me.
I had a friend over Mon night that knows everything and is like a sister to me. SDhe said that there is probably alot more than just the issue of the baby that triggered my meltdown. That there is probably something that I am lacking right now too. And she is right. It will have to be addressed in another post. This is already too long, but I think it has to do with the fact that I need to feel more special to him, and those measures have not been taken above and beyond what we NEED to do(ie:therapy, Retrouvaille).
I want to thank anyone who has yet again made it thru another long post and my whinning.
NGU
BTW I think I need to post more, then it may not be as long...

for youre own good for the good of your children stop with the baby thing...my husband too had a child with the other woman. Your fixation isnt on showing him you can be a good mother otherwise you could do that with the children you have or with reconnecting with him. Believe me I know. Somehow you want to prove to yourself you are the chosen one...the chosen woman, chosen mother, chosen wife. Face it now. You have all the children he wants. In January the answer is no...as it is today. It doesnt mean that he loves you more or less. It is not a question of whether you can handle things or not. You are not listening to him. You feel deprived I understand but you are not facing what you feel deprived about. You have to face the remorse of being one of the mother's of his children, not the only mother of his children. And the loss of giving birth before the other woman. Not that in the grand scheme of things it means no matter the birth order it is devestating but emotionally you have been deprived. I know I have lived it. Somewhere inside you think this child will be the child of the new couple. You hope to recoup the dreams you have lost. It doesnt work that way. Dont bring another child into the hysteria, work on being together loving each other every day. Loving your children. I am not saying you are wrong to mourn those losses...but what your doing is not mourning. You have convinced yourself you wont let him deprive you of your dreams. Realize the hard truth...there is no going back. He has a child with someone else. She gave him his first child. They robbed you. Face it. Deal with it. Move on. If making this marriage work is truly your goal then focus on that and the real measures it takes to make that work. No miracle baby will restore you, or teach him. It just doesnt work that way. Best Wishes always....from a kindred spirit. ayslyne@yahoo.com

Ayslyne: Thanks so much for the reply...but i wanted to clear up my intentions of the post...I posted this on another board as well:

Hi all! I am just checking in to see if there were any responses...WOW!
One thing is, I really don't want to focus in on my reasoning for the baby...that is all in the open and I know what mindset is, as does he, and although I think he understands my needs, well, its all so mute anyway. It has been argued to the core. My problem with all of this is that I did what I did and can hardly face myself. I am not an irrational person and I disproved that in everyway, and any chance that I did have with my H to consider the baby, IMO, has been lost b/c he has, in the past had a tendency to not understand emotions and the effect they can have on your actions, and held onto even small "episodes" as examples for too long..
That is why I am so ashamed of myself, in front of myself and my H...and I don't know how to accept what I did when i feel that it will be held as an example of my instability for a long time.
Thanks to you all, and God bless you all...

I guess I wasn't clear in what was the intention of posting. It was so hard to get all of it down in words...I have posted about having a baby before, but I just don't know how to live with this. I know people make mistakes, but mine really hit me hard...
Thanks again for your thoughts...
NGU

I bet ALL of us here have had ugly scenes in our homes like the one you described. I know I have. After the damage of the affair, our reactions are in direct proportion to our loss of confidence, self esteem and desperation. Really, big deal. So what you fell apart and had a major melt down. You're human. You have suffered and endured the most horrible, the most horrendous, the most destructive thing that could ever possibly happen to a marriage. I certainly wouldn't apologize for it if it was a one or two time thing...only if it is a regular occurance.

Really, big deal.

An event of this magnitude changes us forever. In many of us, me included pre-MB Forum, I started out wimpy, scared, threatening, bargaining, pleading and carrying on - embarrassing. It pushed Bipolar away. When I got ahold of myself, just like you will one day, and realized what my husband did was his flaw and not mine, I began to change everything, especially my attitude. And it showed. Bipolar fell deeply in love with me all over again because, frankly, I was detaching in a loving way and taking care of me and not in his face constantly. I had found this site, attended Retrouvaille like you and read everything I could get my hands on. I worked on myself and stopped obsessing over Bipolar what he did and who he did it with and the results thereof.

It's not easy to detach lovingly but I think it is one of the keys to reconciliation. It takes the pressure off the Wayward and makes the Betrayed far more attractive. And it's healthier.

As far as desperately wanting a child, I have to agree with aynslyne. Feeling as insecure and stressed and desperate as you are feeling is not the right time or a good time to even think about having another child. Too many women (Betrayeds)get themselves pregnant after something like this to stake out their territory and it is obvious to everyone around them why they have done it...and they have done it for all the wrong reasons.

Please examine your feeling WHY you are so desperate to have another child, NGU. I think if you give it some time and relax a little and concentrate on your marriage and not force your need for a "quick fix" that will only serve as an added responsibility that could pull you apart, you'll realize down the road that having a child for those reasons would be unfair for the child and make everyone miserable in the long run. Again, I do understand the need to win and be the one and only, but after an OC, the rules change and so does the basic foundation of the marriage...sometimes for the better.

Why would you want to burden yourself with even more stress and angst when things are so sketchy right now? This kind of "solution" is an illusion and only makes things far, far worse in the long run.

As for the meltdown, chalk it up to female emotional characteristics that over 50 % of the population suffers from. If men don't get it or understand it or if it upsets them, tough, too bad. That's the way we are and the way we react when they have done something so vile that they have violated our trust and our marriage, breached their vows and caused us the worst possible heartache on the planet and if they don't like our reaction, too bad. It isn't something that can't be remedied simply by making us their number one priority and becoming involved in recovery. It's so simple. It isn't hard to do and the rewards and benefits are wonderous to both spouses, but often their childish pride sabotages it with their attitude.

Don't chase after him or bar the door, let him go and find other ways to take care of yourself and ways to make yourself more secure within yourself so you don't need his validation.

You have a child/children with your husband already. That should be enough for you. I don't have any and never will. I consider you lucky.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ July 31, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I thought I would put in my 2 cents, and it may become a dollar's worth before I am through. If it does I apologise, but here goes.
1. Are you seeing the counselor on your own? It sounds to me like that some of your issues should be addressed singly. Then once you understand your self then you can bring them forward in the joing counselling.
2. Have you stopped and found YOU in the situation. It seems we lose ourselves in our marriages and put our needs last, our wants, desires and dreams last. If you do not take care of yourself, you cannot take care of children, your marriage or your husbands needs.
3. Another book I would recommend is DIVORCE BUSTING by Michelle Weiner-Davis. You must declare your independence. Show him you want him, but you could live without him if you had to. Someone else will find you attractive/interesting even if he does not. Develop interests outside of him and the kids, become you, not his wife or your kids mom, because ultimately that is who you are. Value yourself for you, not the roles you have assumed. Remember happiness is something inside yourself. ONly you can make yourself happy, do not ever expect to find happiness through other people. What makes you happy?
4. I believe that children are a gift that we take, mold and grow. At some point they must go out into the world and become themselves. Our jobs as parents is to give them the skills to create their lives as they want them. Are you doing that for them? Will you be able to go on once your children are grown? Will you and your husband have a relationship once the children are gone?
5. Finally, as to having a child at 40, I did it. He is the greatest gift I have received from God. I think my older children would feel the same way. My H could only say, "Do you realise how old we will be when he is 20?" Yes, we will be 60 years YOUNG (we are the same age). I must admit, this was not a planned pregnancy, but then neither was the OC born 4 mos younger than our son. Yes my H was seeing his lover while I was PG. WE believe she got PG in an <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> attempt to force his hand, make him choose her over me. She lost. He chose me, his 4 children, one on the way, over her, (15 years younger) and their child.
I don't advise forcing the issue, be sure your child is wanted for the right reasons. All children have the right to be loved and have two parents.

Well I hope I have given you some food for thought. I hope I have helped.

I am Texasgirl