CM; I hear you don't believe you are the perpetrator in your ex MM's marriage. Only he is.

O.k, I get your permission.
Don't agree with it, however, but I understand you are not willing to take responsibility for the hurt you have done to his marriage and wife and any kids they may have.

But, try to understand this. From his wife's perspective, and most likely your husband's , the OP did do damage to their marriage, not just the designated spouse. If your husband found out about the A and the OC not being his, I suspect he would feel incredibly hurt not just by you, but by your ex MM. And likewise, I think so would the wife of the MM.

Trust me, I will always hold both my H and the OW for damaging my life and taking much of what was only mine. I don't think H is more guilty than OW, I think they are equally guilty. The OW knew my H was married from day one-knew he was committed to our marriage and family, and had no plans to change that.She didn't care if what she did hurt us-just cared how it felt for her.

By the way, my OW is single and had no one to be hurt by my H-just herself. IN my case, however, my H came with a long term wife, 3 kids, extended family, financial obligations to those people, etc.She cared not.

Like I said before, even hating her as I do, I wouldn't do what she did to me in a hearbeat. I thought my words or at the least Pepperband's eloquent words on sister hood would bring you to accepting some responsiblity for wounding others outside your immediate family. the fact is, you have not told H about A, so you haven't taken any responsibility for your actions yet.

Why am I not surprised accepting responsibility for MM's wife's pain would not be within your realm?

CM, you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I made no promise to her before God or anyone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I say:

Deuteronomy 5:21

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife; and you sal not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox or his [censored], or anything that is your neighbor's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also ... spoken at every Christian wedding:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What God has joined together let no man put asunder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is very clear that God holds you accountable for what YOU did to your xMM's wife. (God addresses the WS in the 7th commandment and I conceed the WS is equally responsible to all person's affected by an affair)

Earlier in your post you stated you attended a Christian church and believed in God. How can you say you are not responsible (in part) for the damage to his marriage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What I am saying is that he is soley responsible for the damage to his M, as I am for the damage in mine.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eagerly awaiting your reply,
Z.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: zebrababy ]</small>

Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

ok guys I see no point in this..

DO YOU ?

This is between her and her god and not any of your business.. I think you should move on and I also think cmiranda you owe them no explanation.

Our lives are all different and we have all sinned, I see no reason to point fingers and this is not bible class and you are not God.
Lets discuss something that actually has a reason besides pointing fingers.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

I had a completely different post here but i deleted it .

I would just like to say that being kind and considerate to the feelings of others should have nothing to do with vows made before God. It should come from having good morale character. No matter what promises you have or have not made it is never excusable to take part in injuring , emotionally or physically, another human being. And if you should happen to participate in the injury of another then you should at least have the character to stand up and say I'm sorry.

jtigger

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

Gosh ladies, this is about the 4th thread in my honor. I will give you the respect you deserve my responding briefly and truly hope this doesn't turn into some crazy hair brained twisted up mess of a thread. If it takes that turn, I shall ignore it for those of us who choose the peaceful route around here.

UW,
I see that you are angry toward H and his OW. I understand what you are saying about anger toward the OP coming to a head when BS is told of affair. I understand that is very often the case. It is a bit mysterious to me but that is a whole other story. I wasn't sharing my feelings as a BS rather the ow as "we" were so very fondly referred to by catnip.
I understand how you feel the way you do to some degree. It's a shame that you can't understand how I feel but what more can I say to you? Any rebuttal on my part will only cause a huge debate and I'm not interested in doing so because it will get me absolutely no where. I have been there and done that here thinking I could shed some light onto the other half of the affair for you or other BS's. Yet to no prevail.
BTW, my realm is much greater than you can fathom. Perhaps if you were my MM's wife you would not be suffering as you are now. I have spared alot of people in what I thought was putting their happiness and well being before my own. I made some mistakes yes. I have made some incredible sacrafices as well.
I hope you find what you are looking for in your life. I would only hope that you keep both ears and eyes open so that you don't let it pass you by.

ZB,
I had a very long discussion with my Minister. He, to my amazement, explained how marriage came to be in the Church, the purpose of confession, and God's forgiveness. With that, I am satisfied that I understand God's law. Thank you for your concern. I second Mo5 in that, I owe you no explaination other than to refer you back to my posts on her thread. If I thought minds were open to discussion, I may offer to further explain my feelings however I realize that is rarely the case and believe this is best left alone.

Tigger,
My dear T, I didn't put any opinion out there. I put my feelings out there. No further validation required other than what I posted on Mo5 thread. It was sufficient in my eyes and I do believe we've put that thread to bed.
Oh, yes, we all have heard of the 10 commandments in my church.. I know them and I understand them.
My feelings about responsiblity to the BS haven't changed in spite of them.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

CM,
Please read new post above.
I agree that this thread will go no where. If you don't understand the difference between right and wrong then we surely cannot teach you.

tigger,

Oh yes, it has changed..
I certainly do understand the difference b/w right and wrong so spare you need to preach and teach me. I have said over and over again, so please open up your ears, I have made mistakes. I have been wrong many a time.
MM marriage was broken before I got involved with him. His feelings had changed for her before I met him. Any further damage done to their M after I was with him, was done because a grown man consented to turn away from her even further. He made his own choices. For those choices I shall not be held accountable. The end.

CM

CMiranda,

You know it is interesting. I generally read your posts and those of MO5. I think they are thought provoking. Yet, when I read them I will see something and say to myself Oh OH! here comes some feedback. Your comment about not having any responsibility to OM's W because they were all his choices was one of them. I knew you had inadvertently tossed another gernade (sp) into this site. So I have been sitting her waiting for the response and sure enough they did.

But, your response also got me thinking. I know MO5 defends you with great vigor. I also know you have never really illucidate much of your thinking.

But, I keep wondering why are you married to your H? You have described him as an abuser, a man you didn't like. You have had and perhaps are still having an affair with a MM for 6.5 or more years. You conceived and had OM's child. You speak glowingly of OM and never well of your H. You have made at least 6.5 years of his marriage a hollow myth, and his fatherhood a sad joke on him.

Now I realize you don't have to justify anything to me or anyone else, but I guess I am curious how you justify staying married to your H. By all of your accounts, he is not a good man. By all accounts you find the OM far superior. By all accounts OM isn't in much of marriage and you feel that it was so before you became involved and hence no real responsibility to how it affects OM's W. So how do you justify taking up your H's life and time, when he has failed you so miserably?

I ask this question because I have another for you. You see this is marriagebuilders and you never ask questions about how to make the marriage you are in better. This leads to my last question. How can I or anyone else be of help to you?

It seems there is no avenue for you to receive any help or guidance in dealing with your marriage or with perhaps ending it. Yup, even MB recognizes that some marriage will end and probably should end.

Now I also realize that I have picked a poor thread to ask these questions, but since I also realize that your approach to things does from time to time set off bombs here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I thought I would change this one a bit and see if it is possible for the people here to be of help to you or is it really only MO5 that can do that?

I hope this doesn't offend you. It was not meant in that spirit. Just a spirit of curiosity.

God Bless,

JL

It's going to be very sad if the truth about the A and OC is revealed to your H before you even have a chance to do so yourself. Something will probably come up in which the truth will finally be exposed to the light of day for all to see, I just feel sorry for your C because I wonder how the truth is going to affect the poor child.

jl
I know this post is to cmiranda
But let me explain why I defend her. First I know how she feels second, I see people attacking when they dont know facts and out of pure meaness, just to make someone hurt because they hurt and I wonder how would that help any one or give any one support to strengthen their marriage. She doesnt ask for my support, I give it, because I believe in her and she is a strong person with a rough road ahead and many decisions and I understand each and every one of them and I am able to offer support because I have been through what she will face in her future. She deserves support.
I want my marriage stronger.. I work on it daily and have made alot of progress, but insults and people saying I belong elsewhere just because they are offended by me is ridiculous and not very supportive of a strong marriage and someone trying to change their life for the good.

I can offer support to any one, bs or ws, doesnt matter we are all humans and need support to make our lives better why shouldnt we have it ?
There are a couple of bs's on here I have great respect for and admire and have learned from them and showed my husband their post, but I see nothing productive about constantly harrassing someone on their life as if we all had perfect live ourselves. WHAT IS THE POINT. do you think constantly bickering with each other will help any one heal, why not learn from one another to help our selves in our lives, we all want compassion for bs's but ws need compassion as well and I think someone trying to make a difference and help their marriages should receive that.
My husband has done many aweful things but you know what I love him and we are learning to communicate and I think we just might make it. I know since reading the concepts here and practicing some I have become a better wife and friend to him and he has to me as well.
I stay because I love him, but we had many loveless years. But I am working on bringing back the love that we had in our early years.

WHY do so many bs's stay with there husbands after they have had years of an affair ?Because they love them.
example usedlong ago.. his wife had a 27 year affair and he loves her so he stays with her, in all the devistation and pain He stays because he loves her and he wants to make his marriage work.
My guess is cm stays in her marriage because she loves him and is working on what to do with her life and about the choices she needs to make.

Just because we are women doesnt make the pain for us different If your husbands are capable of straying or even falling in love with someone else while they are with you.. they are no different than we are.
You keep referring to us as ow.. we are also ws's and your husbands are actually om.. dont you see that there is not much difference between the two. PEOPLE make mistakes.
If your husbands are capable of change and love and being a good parent so are we... people we are all people know one is perfect and I dont see why we spend so much time pointing fingers.

So she cares alot for other man.. after your with someone that long, you cant help but care about them.. it happens and she should be proud she stopped the affair and is learning what she wants to do about the rest. But if we dont offer support, we drive her right back to the person who is more than willing to give the support.. guess who that would be... the mm.
The om in my life still thinks we were meant to be together and we will always be friends and he has made no bones about his feelings, but you know what has kept me from falling back into that ? a wayard spouse on this site and a betrayed spouse on this site and I have been strong and while I have had weak moments over the last two years, I have not gone back. I instead worked harder on my husband and our life
together. I love husband and want to try. I have even learned to not be around om so much so I dont have those problems.
I was with him along time and he met all my needs for many years.[How do you hate someone who was so much a part of your life ? we couldnt hate each other if we tried and we have tried.]. is it tempting .. at times it has been. My husband knows this I share with him when I see a problem. OM is no different he has the same issues I do and he misses talking to me as well. But we have to have boundries and I am learning those boundries from here.
My point in sharing this is, we all have hard days, we all have issues to work through men and women alike, we just handle them differently. But look how much we can learn from each other.
I have posted on glory b before but I dont really have any thing in common with them, I do understand their pain of baring a child and the trials of mm and all that.. but most of them are not married and working on fixing a marriage. While I am sure some of them are lovely ladies, I cant help them and they cant help me.
There is a thread on gq I have been following and I share it with my husband, WE have learned a lot.

If we could learn to have a conversation and not fight we could learn from each other all of us.

I also dont believe I am the only support cm has here, I have seen many post positive things to her. just so happens today I had something to say.

TMCM

MY guess is cm has to think about this everyday. I would guess she has one of the hardest things in the world to do and how does she do it. I think we scare her, because she can see the ugliness about ow and /oc from bs's and she has others who have contact and deal with so much garbage.. it is frightning .
I believe her husband will still love her and that baby and life will move on...and I also believe when the time is right she will make the choice she needs to make.

CM. , my post as I wrote it was not to asperge you or cast blame or encourage you to leave this site. I truly think you are going to have a heck of a time healing if you do not recognize the pain of what you have done, to all.

I know the difficulty in doing this. My H avoided this at all costs, until Steve Harley suggested for healing, he had to enumerate what he has done to me-in all the grim detail, and then listen to me to fill in the blanks he missed. I swear that was an incredibly healthy exercise-because although my H captured much of what he had done to us and me and our family, he missed some essence I was able to communicate to him. He finally got it.

I feel for you and your H because neither of you have had an opportunity to heal from the lies and deceit. You included. I don't know how my H deals with the deceit and lies, because I don't think I could live knowing what he has done to me. I am greatful every day I did not do what he did to me. I still have self-respect. My H has lost my respect and much of his own.'

I speak to you because I feel for you.

And amen to speaking not of God, but of being kind and caring to others. Infidelity, to me, is almost criminal and not caring at all. It ruins many a life, many a family, many a child. Now that I have experienced this personally, I don't see any humor in OW or OM or affairs or OC from A. It is not funny, never will be, it is painful and horrific.

I wish you well, MIrands.

mom of five.

You have been both the BS and WS so you know from first hand experience the devastating pain that the BS goes thru once s/he discovers that the person who promised to love, cherish and protect her/him has betrayed them and brought forth an inocent child into the world under less than ideal of circumstances. And you also know that the more a person tries to hide a terrible secret, the more that secret takes its toll on the person keeping it and on their love ones as well. I beleive that this is also the case with CM and her family because otherwise she would not be here asking for help.

It would be a terrible irony that in her preocupation on whether to tell her H or not about her A and OC, her H started his own A. It has happened and will continue to happen, especially when the BS's needs have not been met by the WS (it happened to you).

Nobody likes to feel pain or inflict pain upon others, but unfortunately sometimes as much as we strive to avoid it, it is practically impossible to escape from doing so.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So she cares alot for other man.. after your with someone that long, you cant help but care about them.. it happens and she should be proud she stopped the affair and is learning what she wants to do about the rest. But if we dont offer support, we drive her right back to the person who is more than willing to give the support.. guess who that would be... the mm.
The om in my life still thinks we were meant to be together and we will always be friends and he has made no bones about his feelings, but you know what has kept me from falling back into that ? a wayard spouse on this site and a betrayed spouse on this site and I have been strong and while I have had weak moments over the last two years, I have not gone back. I instead worked harder on my husband and our life
together. I love husband and want to try. I have even learned to not be around om so much so I dont have those problems.
I was with him along time and he met all my needs for many years.[How do you hate someone who was so much a part of your life ? we couldnt hate each other if we tried and we have tried.]. is it tempting .. at times it has been. My husband knows this I share with him when I see a problem. OM is no different he has the same issues I do and he misses talking to me as well</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MO5 Again you write about feelings for MM and his feelings for you.
Though you don't act on them ,they are there.
Obviously you both have said something about missing each other or how would you both know?

That is what I mean about scaring a new person away from here.

That is what I mean of the danger of visitation.

Who's to say in the future, if your H ticks you off again, you won't try to have your needs met again by MM? With all of you in such close weekly surroundings it could happen.

No one here said you have to hate MM, but you and CM are constantly saying how you have spent so much time w/MM how can you hate them.

That is dangerous.

If you re-commit to your spouses in the right way there will be no room for "sweet" feelings anymore. There will be a desire to let OP go for good. To quit saying anything positive about OP.

Either you or CM stated that all of us here are married to a WS and that is what you two are, then how can we be angry with you and not them?
That you think they equal you....

I'll tell you how.

We have nothing more to do w/OP.

We discuss the harm they both have done.

In our case OW doesn't get it. She's married (in name only) and has written me letters on how proud she was to have my H's child. (sick)

This further sickens my H. He saw too late what havoc he caused w/OW to ALL OF OUR FAMILIES.

He desires nothing more than to have OW'S H adopt oc.

She has caused him to feel guilt over the circumstances the oc was brought into this world.

H, from the beginning has asked me for forgiveness..ow never has.

H has been out of the fog for sometime now and doesn't have fond memories of OP, only sadness and wishing he could go back and not act on her suggestions of "no one will ever know".

Lastly, ow wanted to be me and be my H's MRS. Was hoping a child would do that.

So you see? All ws are NOT like you or CM.
Most WS/BS here are recovering because of these reasons I gave you.

They are totally re-commited to BS and are sorry for ever having laid eyes on OP.

So, no, you are not the same.

Also for the time you've both been here, you both put on the "ow hat" and defend each other. Oh, a few more ow do it too, but you've asked why some here don't like you, and I've again tried to tell you.

BTW, glad you find help on "GQ". Hope it helps you and H.
Debi

Personally, I have to agree with much of what JL has written. One thing about this site that I love is how it helped me recover my marriage! We didn't spend a dime! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There have been no affairs in my marriage, but the concepts of the love bank and filling emotional needs and not love busting have all helped me/us so, so much in affair-proofing and strengthening our romantic love.

It grieves me to read stuff posted by CM because it exudes from her posts that she doesn't fully embrace the MB concepts (Rule of Care Protection & Radical Honesty) and probably won't until she feels like it, which is fine with me--nobody can control a WS, right? Riiiight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's just kinda sad and does make me also wonder WHAT'S THE POINT...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>...I see people attacking when they dont know facts and out of pure meaness, just to make someone hurt because they hurt and I wonder how would that help any one or give any one support to strengthen their marriage...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now see m05, that is being very judgmental of YOU to say that people are asking CM questions in order to attack out of meanness???? How can you know that? Only God knows why people do or say what we do or say? You can't say this and not be judging others. Only God knows our motives and intent...

CM has posted quite a bit of facts that we can't all too easily forget!!! I could be wrong about this one but I believe she broke off the affair while she was still basically in love with the OM and is in heavy withdrawal. I might have misread something, but that is the kind of stuff that stands out to me when I think of CM--not the MB side of her story--yet she's here on "MB."

I don't know? Maybe her marriage has not reached that point yet. I just don't see how it can or will ever if there is still so much love for the OM? Nobody said to hate the OP--but you DO have to see the OP as a cancer capable of mass destruction of your marriage!!! Toxic! Evil influence! Bad News! Just all that!!!!! Do you think the devil will come to you as himself??? If that was the case there would be no such thing as temptation--we would all flee without a second thought!!!

Many here profess their Christianity. In light of that, we must dig deeper, not just seeing mitigating circumstances, but spiritual implications.

One thing about CM is that she admits she is NOT a MBer--not in so many words, but she does! I think that is what stands out the most and makes people tend to react instead of support opinions, feelings, thoughts and attitudes that directly conflict with MB concepts.

Quitting the affair is no where near MBing. I'm sorry but you haven't even picked up the bat yet...

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 06:06 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be a terrible irony that in her preocupation on whether to tell her H or not about her A and OC, her H started his own A. It has happened and will continue to happen, especially when the BS's needs have not been met by the WS (it happened to you).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM

TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN. I know you mean well and yes you are right it would be a terrible thing. I dont wish that pain on cm at all it is the most tremendous feeling.. as if someone has stabbed you and doesnt stop. I remember the feeling all to well.

WHOA
I'm new here, I thought this site was for BS and WS to build there marriages. I had no Idea that OW
be posting here and validateing there betrail.

Is there another site I can post because this is really scary this doesn't help healing at all especially if people are saying they have nothing too do with the problems in Marriages.

I was told either you are the solution or you are the problem. I was told you can only believe half of what WS say and half of what you see.

I know in previous experience The WS allways paint the BS and the villan. The WS will not take responsibilty in there part of the breakdown in the Marriage. It's easier to blame the BS because there spirit is allready broken

No way are they in the mood to defend themselve
I've read that on most sites I go to. Abandonment recovey Devorcebusting and Marriagebuilders.

BS are so devasted they just are numb and in shock so the WS can throw anything there way and they begin to believe because there rational thinking is not together at all.

Just something that was pass on to me, when you point one finger you have three pointing back at you.

THIS IS DEEP.

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

BTDT

Maybe quitting the affair is not marriage building but it is a pretty good start. She can not heal her marriage if she is having an affair now can she.

Gem,
You are right if you will go back and read some of my post, I said we spend to much time together and I was trying to change some of that in reguard to how much and when.
I would guess at times it is tempting, this wasnt a one night stand. But I think I have done well, I have avoided personal talks so you are wrong, yes he has told me how he feels, However I have not said anything to him. I dont want to do tha to my husband so I dont I am committed to him and I love him. I am giving this marriage my all.
Having feelings and acting on them are two different things , as time goes so will they.

I am still not leaving gem, but I see you are giving it a try and I see nothing wrong with someone understanding all sides of an affair, It helps me learn and might others as well.
Having an affair is devistating and not something I would want to be a part of again, I wish it never happened, but I cant change the past. But I can work on my future and plan to keep trying.
What om does with his life is just that, his life, I can not worry about it.

Let me tell you why I do the weekly visits and all that. OM thinks they are important so it keeps us from fighting, I give in on those and he does things my way for everything else. That means my daughter goes only when I say so, she only spends one night at a time, and is returned to me the very next day. He is happy with that arrangement and my husband and I are happy with that arrangement. I dont want my daughter gone for more than one night at a time. He also pays little child support and we pay insurance, His wife likes it that way and in return he works really hard to respect mine and husbands parenting decisions and abide by them.

I have read alot of stories on here and none are perfect, but we can all learn from them and yes, some bs's can learn from me as well. I also work very hard to be respectful of his wife. and will continue to do so, yes she drives me nuts sometimes, but I refrain from telling her that instead I vent to others.
I agree no contact would be great for any marriage and easier for me.. but in our case that isnt going to happen so we have to work with what we have. And continue providing a good life for our children.

You might be happy to know I said after this birthday party no more parties together, I dont want to do that and I am not going to any more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WHOA
I'm new here, I thought this site was for BS and WS to build there marriages. I had no Idea that OW
be posting here and validateing there betrail.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MALC
cm is a fws and I am a fws and a bs.
I dont know of any OW here . Some of the fine ladies here just feel better calling us that.
I am a wayward spouse who is learning to have a better marriage. CM is a wayward spouse who is no longer in an affiar. and is trying to decide how to work things out in her life.

I am sure you can learn from all here but if you are not comfortable that is your choice.
but you are certainly welcome.
You are right about some things, I remember when my husband had all his affairs, he blamed all on me, I spent years trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. wasnt till later, I realied it was his problem not mine.
just as I made my mistakes, I know why I made them, but in the end I was the one who made them.
Not every situation is the same, we can learn from all.
I wish you luck and Hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Momof5,

I have great admiration for the way you have tried to work things out with the OM for the sake of your daughter. You and your H obviously have very strong communication and are making it work. But, I agree with many others that you are a true exception to that rule. Most triangle or quadrangle situations don't end of the way yours did. You are truly a great example for those who want to take your path.

But I have been on MB for a long time and I must admit that you and CM have driven me into lurking for two very different reasons. CM is extremely disrespectful to everyone who does not agree with her. She does not simply answer the original poster, she analyzes and tears apart the answers given by everyone who replies. I don't even argue with my H and I love him, so it is truly not worth it to argue with a total stranger. That is why I choose to lurk and listen.

I have posted to you once or twice and I have never had a disrespectful response. But your habit of speaking for CM gets tiring. It is very "high-schoolish" the way you each spring to each other's defense whenever one is questioned. Unless you are the same person, neither of you can possibly know what is in each other's minds and when someone asks a question, they are generally not looking for another person's speculation on the answer.

Your reply to MALC absolutely amazed me. You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure you can learn from all here but if you are not comfortable that is your choice.
but you are certainly welcome.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sentence says it all. It explains your entire life and the reasons why you and CM are sometimes not held in high regard on this board. Both of you are making a lot of people on this board uncomfortable. While you are correct that is our problem, what you don't understand is that it is your problem too.

I have seen old timers on this board saying that you have destroyed this board. But your reply is, if you don't like it -- you can leave. That exemplifies to most betrayed spouses here the attitude of the OW who, in their view, ruined their lives. Women who knowingly go after married men simply don't care about anyone. If their wives don't like it -- they can leave.

You and CM have admitted openly that you don't consider the wives of your MM to be your concern in any way. Well, many of us are the wives of MM and you are again saying to all of us -- if we don't like it we can leave.

You can say you are a betrayed spouse, if you like. But the simple fact is that you have not discussed one situation on this board that stems from an affair by your husband. All we have heard about is your relationship with the OM and his W. You can paint stripes on a horse but it doesn't make him a zebra.

You are an OW and so is CM. You are both the ones in extreme denial who are not following the MB principles. You both say inciteful things for no apparent reason other than to upset other people.

It is truly a shame that people who need help have stopped posting here because of people who are pretending to need help. And it is a shame that new people are being driven away because OWs are telling them that the child of the affair is more important than the feelings of the married couple.

I am not making any judgements on who should or should not be here. But common sense says that if you are not following the MB principles, you simply don't belong on this board. Why would anyone want to prevent people who are seriously in pain and devastated from this situation from finding help?