"That exemplifies to most betrayed spouses here the attitude of the OW who, in their view, ruined their lives. Women who knowingly go after married men simply don't care about anyone. If their wives don't like it -- they can leave."

This just cracks me up!! My exOM persued me like you wouldn't believe. He is now divorced, and keeps his distance from me because he doesn't want to be the one to cause my M to end. He says he divorced his wife because I "woke him up" to what being with a woman should be like. I didn't persuade him in any manner to do this. Completely on his own...

Is it hard to take a good look in the mirror, and easier just to blame the harlot OW, who ruined your happy little life? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

YES I totally understand what you're saying.

You should know this .... having empathy hurts!

Having empathy opens you up to caring ... and caring hurts. None of us can do this totally ... all the time.

I was thinking you start with being empathetic in the here and now. Check your thoughts. If you find yourself dismissing someone else, just pause for a second and "feel for them" .... do this especially if it is difficult for you to like or agree with that person. The point is not to like or agree with them ... but to "see them" as human.

You know, in wartime, soldiers would de-humanize their enemy in order to be able to tolerate killing them ... the "Japs" the "[censored]" .... and other labeling. Then, the soldiers would return home ... and have trouble adjusting to families, and loving, because they were de-humanizing killing machines.

In a very very small way ... we all do this at times. It sucks. It sucks for us ... because it de-humanizes US as it dehumanizes our "enememy".

I recently posted a slew of insults on 2Long's thread ... about "RatMeat" 2Long's wife's MM. I knew what I was doing ... helping him vent .. but it was dehumanizing RatMeat so 2Long could let off steam there instead on on hiw wife!

MY intention is not to break you down into a teary woman unable to function due to remorse ... but to guide you to restore what is good and pure about you.

What have you lost CMiranda if you care about others?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS I was going to correct the error of spelling enemy .... but I decided to leave it as is because it's funny <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

BUT ....

Being teary and full of remorse is one of the steps toward becoming a recovered YOU .

I spent one afternoon on my knees in my closet crying to God to forgive me for the terrible things I had done in my life, in my marriage, for ignoring people I should have cared for. For my pridefullness. For my apathy.

It was cleansing .... but totally exhausting ... and not something we can tolerate on a daily basis.

I think it is a necessary step to forgiving ourselves. Don't be scared.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I see things that MM did, because of me, that hurt her. I see it now because as I look back, she was home with 2 small children while all this was going on. I see it because I am raising a baby, there are many many times when I am stressed, that I think back on those days and wonder if it was like this for her, alone without him because I was with him or because he was distracted from his home life. When I feel this way, I normally change my thought process to thinking (please no one jump on me) why should I carry the burden of MM choices? This is where I turn my back on my guilt because it feels like I'm being his doormat once again.

I always felt like the wounded on in my R with him. I also felt that way with my H when he drank. Maybe I'm sticking myself in the victim role and don't know how to stop.

Can you understand what I am trying to explain?

I can start with empathy if I know how to use it.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one will ever jump on you for honesty like this, CM. I see this as quite a break through simply because there are no defenses and just plain old honesty about how you felt then, had blinders on and how painful it is to look at the realities of it all.

It is completely understandable why you would take on that kind of protective view with regards to the BS...if you do not acknowledge her, or take any responsibility for her pain, it absolutely relieves you from any guilt or obligation. As long as this responsibility is relegated to MM, you are spared. It takes a lot of courage to admit this, CM and this kind of honesty and openess is the stuff recovery is made of.

I know it isn't easy for you to look at this because it compunds your pain which is already so acute. You are facing the journey and you know it will be rugged at first and the first year is the hardest and a year sounds like such a long time. I understand your fears but you are not alone in this, you really, really are not.

We change our thought processes to protect ourselves from things we can't yet face. And that does work for a time. But, with grwoth and maturity and and open ehart, this changes, too. For a while you may feel profound guilt and this may be why it is easier to look at her as a sonofabytch, which is totally understandable as well. The fact that your affair was such a long one has probably retarded your recovery because of lingering feelings for MM and it sin't easy to leave that behind especially when you have borne a constant reminder that you love so deeply.

Is it obvious, physically, to you or to others that this child resembles your MM? Or does he take more after you, which would make it easier for you to delay discovery?

CM, I know I have been absolutely horrible to you with good reason, but horrible nonetheless. It is imperitive to jolt you out of your denial in order for you to heal. I am not some self-appointed guardian at the gate...well, maybe I am, but the things you read here during times of high emotion are being used to excuse you from moving forward. I know that it is more comfortable to say because of the way BS's feel about things during hot debates that it confirms your resolve to put off discvovery as long as possible out of fear. While this sounds justifiable, be sure this is not an excuse.

Believe it or not, CM, I am truly, truly on your side and I know you mean well and your attitude is one of survival and defense and fear. What youa re about to do is absolutely frightening, and absolutely necessary. But, with a lot of prayer and the right attitude, you and your husband will survive this and thrive. He would never leave a woman like you. You are just too interesting and passionate.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by findingmywayback:
[QB
Is it hard to take a good look in the mirror, and easier just to blame the harlot OW, who ruined your happy little life? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hell, yes. Of course, it is. But most of us are realistic enough to realize that their spouses did the pursuing, and acknowledge the fact that the OW was more than willing to enter into the affair, not caring of the consequences or the harm to others. The woman in almost all relationships is in charge of whether or not there will be sex and whether or not there will be an affair. So in that respect, the OW is held liable because she is the one who determines whether or not she is going to give in to the flattery of the MM and allow the pursuit to come to fruition. It brings us back to that "sisterhood" thing again.

Without the consent of the OW, the MM would have nowhere to go with it, but perhaps, home.

Catnip =^^=

Yes, they might go home, but they will be on the prowl again the next day. If a man wants to cheat, he will find a way. The ones who can't find someone, end up with prostitutes, or going to strippers.

Proverbs 6:26

"For a harlot (prostitute) may be hired for a loaf of bread, But an adulteress stalks a man's very life."

Finding,

you are right, they may very well get back on the prowl the next day ... but maybe, just maybe one of those women will stop, look him in the eye and call him out. Tell him he needs to get home and figure out what the hell's missing in his marriage. Or better yet, refer him to MB so he can get some guidance. Maybe if he's slapped with that rejection enough he might think about it.

Worst case senario he does end up with a prostitute. But she won't fall in love with him or have his baby with intentions on "winning" him away from his family.

Bottom line is ... if a man's gonna cheat he's gonna cheat. But each and every woman is responsible for whom she allows in her body, bed and heart. I think that was the point that was trying to be made.

I've always heard the saying. "Change starts with me."

I guess all BS's wish there were more women out there that could chant that mantra when our husbands were "persuing" or "soliciting" them.

disclaimer ... this post refers to WS (males) that persue OP (female). I am quite aware there are a million and one renditions of an affair. Please be kind to not post those other million.

p.s. I also wanted to add I know about the "dangers" of prostitutes with AIDS and other diseases. That truely is worse than having a child concieved as a result of an affair.

Thank God the stigma of prostitues are that they are somehow "unsafe" and many men steer clear. While many men don't.

ok, i'm rambling.
Z.

finding:

you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it hard to take a good look in the mirror, and easier just to blame the harlot OW, who ruined your happy little life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm just refering to my OW here and not relating her to you or any other that might read this. I figure this is o.k. since you told the story of how your MM persued you.

You know what I'm angry about? I'm angry that my OW didn't play by the rules they (he and she) set up in the beginning. Just sex, no love, no comittment, just sex.

Not only did she not play by the rules and admittedly try to get pregnant. She then fingered my H as the father and denied anyone else could possibly be the bio-dad. Guess what ... she was a damn liar. There was another possibility and it was her BF.

So honey, let me tell you I for one have my eyes wide open to the "harlot" in my life. She is the reason we lived in turmoil for 1.5 years. Had she been up front and said she wasn't sure who the sperm donator was, it all could have been ended quick, fast and in a hurry!

Instead having to finger the blame on someone .. it sure would be refreshing if more people took responsibility for their actions. You can't blame someone if they own up to the wrongs they've done. My Husband has. Have you? (not to be meant in a mean spirit ... just a question.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Instead having to finger the blame on someone .. it sure would be refreshing if more people took responsibility for their actions. You can't blame someone if they own up to the wrongs they've done. My Husband has. Have you? (not to be meant in a mean spirit ... just a question.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you on this. It can be very hard to admit you have wronged someone. I have admitted my wrongs. I am curious, was there a good chance your H was the father, and that is why she thought it was him? Did she really just blatantly lie about it? Also, how did you discover your H's A and the pregnancy? I'm just curious, I don't really know your story that well, just that the child turned out not to be his.

CM,

I have to say I never imagined myself posting to you. The truth is, you scare me somewhat because of the fireworks that always seem to surround your posts.

I just wanted to say that I think your willingness to begin to examine your feelings in all of this is such a breath of fresh air and really gives me hope for you and for your recovery.

Listen to Pepper, she's got great advice! More importantly, listen to your heart. Follow what you know to be right and daily work anew on your recovery. Once you've been able to be completely honest with your husband, only then will you be able to be "complete" with him because for as long as you have to keep hiding your secret from him, you are hiding a part of yourself that he can never have. The real beauty in your relationship will be revealed once you have been able to reveal ALL of yourself.

I am on the other side of this dilemma...my H is the WS, father of a five year old that I only recently found out about. While our recovery is going extremely well and I feel more loved than ever before, I still have fears of not knowing my husband completely. I patiently wait for him to learn to trust me and my love for him so that he can finally (after almost 20 years!) give himself completely to me and not hide behind his secrets and lies.

Good luck to you, CMiranda. Trust that ALL of us only want the best for you AND your marriage!

It's about 4:30 in the morning and I can't sleep...
It occurred to me that a lot of marriages don't last as long as your affair did, CM. I can almost see why this is so incredible difficult for you to get past. Just the fact that it did last for so long does imply the involvement was more than most here simply for the sheer fact of longevity. The thing that bothers me is how could you get away with it for so long? Was your husband so tuned out that he didn't see the signs? Is that part of the problem? His inability to be close to you or involved with you? Did you feel unattched or isolated from him?

Just curious.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Catnip!

This is somewhat along the lines of what I've been thinking too.

Imagine never having been in an adult truely committed relationship where one felt loved and safe.( CM has had a long term affair --->being someone's sidedish .... and a marriage strained beyond the imagination by alcoholism and a terrible secret of genetic proportions)

Then imagine a bunch of strange cyber folks (us) telling her to own up the truth to her H ... with whom she has never been totally and honestly intimate .

This is some scary and difficult [censored] we're asking MC to do.

If she pulls this off (on her timetable) it will be a humungous act of courage!

But ... if she stays status quo ... she never experiences true intimacy. What a loss! I think MC is a terriffic human being who has so much to offer .... and I pray for her to trust herself everyday. I pray her walls of protection are not insurmountable ... and she gain the courage and strength to challenge herself.

The truth will set you free ... but it is no easy walk without painful consequences.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Catnip,

It sure did hurt me to write that post, maybe out of my pride or maybe out my guilt, I don't know, all I know is that it hurt but it felt good to say how I really felt as I thought it was that kind of post that would make people here hate me.
I have been holding up my mask, only letting a few people get close to me.
I do believe that you want my situation to turn around for the best. I have no trouble believing you. Somehow you and I have developed a love/hate relationship. One minute I want roll around in a ball as 2 cats fighting do, and the next, I want to rub noses with you. We seem to stir eachother up somehow. Maybe because we are more alike than not in personality.
I really identified with GIT (formerly wib) post about how her H didn't leave her physically, but somehow emotionally he dropped out. That is my fear because that seems to be a pattern my H has. That is probably my biggest fear of all. I fear he will stay because he is comfortable, we are financially better off than ever before, life is somehow comfortable and he has very weak family ties to his extended family. But not for love. I know this is all a big risk, it could go either way, but apathy and indifference are so much worse than being divorced I feel.
I know I'm not jumping to tell him, but I truly am working to change. I am working to improve my relationship with him. Maybe I am being unfair in that I want to make things better before I turn and make them worse again, but I do feel the need to have something good again rather than add more destruction on top of what his drinking and my A did it our M. He also has not wanted to get real honest in addressing our issues, says he wants to take things slowly. I do believe he really means, sweep it all under the carpet and pretend we never had a bad day in our M. I don't know, I'm taking it one day at a time for now.
Thank you for your supportive post to me. I know it is not easy to understand me. Mo5 was right in that for today, you all are all I've got since you are the only ones I can turn to right now, other than to OM. He can be tempting to me because he already knows my story and he is willing to listein. I don't want to turn back to him and I'm happy to know that I can still post here. I also do not want to go to gloryb and post. Maybe in their starting over section, but even then, they don't seem the same as the people here. I can't get what I need there. I truly hope I'm not ruining this board for others.

CM

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>It's about 4:30 in the morning and I can't sleep...
It occurred to me that a lot of marriages don't last as long as your affair did, CM. I can almost see why this is so incredible difficult for you to get past. Just the fact that it did last for so long does imply the involvement was more than most here simply for the sheer fact of longevity. The thing that bothers me is how could you get away with it for so long? Was your husband so tuned out that he didn't see the signs? Is that part of the problem? His inability to be close to you or involved with you? Did you feel unattched or isolated from him?

Just curious.

Catnip =^^=</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk about empathy! You have brought up something that I was always wishing I could say here but was afraid how it would be received.

I feel as if I am going through a divorce of sorts. I can't really share my pain with anyone and whenever I've had to cry, I hold it until I get in the shower. Then I sit on the floor and cry to myself. Its really pathetic.

I am hell bent on getting through this somehow. Ending it was the hardest thing I've ever had to do yet in my life. It hurt to stay and it hurt to leave. I can honestly say that this site has helped me tremendously, for I've tried to walk away before and it never lasted. Never until now.

I would have to say that we got away with it for so long because we worked together and it made it convenient for us to spend time together. Work was always an excuse. Holidays, weekends, nights, all that kind of thing where we were eachothers alibi just in case and that is probably how we got away with it. But we did almost get caught more than once by trying to have a real relationship. Thats to say, our spouses weren't stupid or some fools by any means. We were just sneaky liars and got good at it.
I think in the beginning, all the signs were written in bold red ink. My H closed his eyes to it and probably felt responsible because he had been so awful to me. (his own words about not knowing how I put up with him). He probably didn't want to know. Then the obvious signs disipated and he probably thought it was over, whatever "it" was.
I absolutely did feel detached from him. That process started when he was drunk all the time. Then when he went into treatment, I decided not to file for D. We started counseling and I started to come around abit. That was around the time I met OM. As I started a friendship with him, I felt pulled in his direction. Eventually he would try and win my love and want my M to be unhappy by comparison to my relationship with him. He wanted to always know that he was first in my heart. I felt loved by him and so I turned away from my H. My H didn't pursue me really, he just went along with life as it existed. Although I was more withdrawn in my mind that I acted outwardly. Except one time I was feeling very distraught over the A, and I revealed to my H that I had thought about killing myself. He never asked me why. He just made sure I didn't feel that way at the moment, which I didn't. So that was end of discussion. It was a fleeting thought and I never really wanted to do it, but it crossed my mind. When OM and I broke up 3 years ago, I felt the same dispair. He was anquished over my pain and he seemed to really care about my well being. I thought he loved me more than my H ever could.
It was not until I was pregnant that I saw a side to my H I hadn't seen in years. Genuine love. I knew I had been wrong about him. But the circumstances were so screwed up, I couldn't tell him, so instead I decided to not tell OM, and stay with H, and well you all know the rest.
I'm trying to reconnect with H. I know I have alot of making up to do. I have to start some where and being connected seems like the best place to start.

CM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mariachimom:

Thank you Mariachimom for your kind words.

Cm,
I appreciate your honesty and pray for the strength and courage you need to do what you have to do in your timetable...

It is a step of courage to admit things and feel vulnerable...I will keep you in my prayers and we are here for you also.

Hugs and prayers....
Twiisty

CM,

Are things better now in your marriage? Do you feel more connected? Does your H? I presume that since he went to rehab or something that the drinking is no longer an issue? Is that correct?

CM, I meant what I said to you earlier. The people here do want to help and will if you will let them.

My next question is straight out of MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DO YOU HAVE A PLAN? If not you should get one, I would suggest that if haven't you might talk to one of the Harley's. They are very good about laying out a plan for this sort of thing.

I am sure they will want you to tell your H the truth, BUT it should be done after some preparation and in the right circumstances. That is what I mean about a plan.

In any event, I am glad things have settled down and people are talking to one another again instead of at one another.

God Bless CM,

JL

Have you ever witnessed a sunset so beautiful, it took your breath away? Or watched someone achieve something that seemed to be unattainable and felt the exhilaration when it finally all came together after a long hard struggle?

I am very moved and too overwhelmed right now to post about what we are witnessing...something pretty incredible and it deserves it's due. Right now is not the time for me to address this because it's way too important.

I'll write late tonight when I am alone without distractions.

catnip =^^=