K

As a man, you are the only one qualified to answer this question and I admit, it is something that has bothered me for a long time.

Do men have a romantic notion over having a son as opposed to having a daughter?

I am going to admit something I am absolutely not proud of and it is difficult for me to do so. But, when I found out the OW had a girl, I was so relieved. I actually prayed that the OC would be a girl because I was afraid of Bipolar's reaction if she had produced a son.

Boys have always been held in higher esteem and desirability in my world, even though I knew I was often superior to those crusty nosed little weasels (haha...no offense) I went to school with. But I recall vividly an incident where a man in our parish was devastated his wife had delivered a girl instead of a boy, relegating this little girl to obscurity and irrelevance, and the message was clear...girl are not as worthy or as prized as boys were.

Do some men, even today, feel this way...even secretly? I am not trying to start something or cruising for statements of outrage from my sisters, but I know that when I found out the OC ws a girl, I sighed a huge sigh of relief. I don't feel or believe boys are more valuable/desirable than girls, but I know some men do.

So, what's you observations and feelings on this?

Thanks

Catnip =^^=

Catnip,

I realize you are actually asking more than just do men have a gender preference. That is why you are asking K. If you asking if it makes difference if OC is a male or female to a man, I cannot answer that. BUT, if you are asking the more general question, I will be happy to chime in if you wish.

JL

Catnip,

Of course you know the answer to this is going to vary all over the map---I'm sure that there's some tribe of Amazon's who have the little boys serving the girls, and I'm sure that you're aware of the prejudice against women in China, to the point of aborting female fetuses.

Some men certainly have a more "romantic" notion of having a boy. I think the first issue is that lots of men don't "get" women---and they can be uncomfortable with their daughters as well as clueless with their wives. My wife was praying that the OC would end up to be a girl---that way I wouldn't picture the OM every time I saw the child. But you know that wasn't the case---I'm fortunate to not have the OM burned into my mind (I only met him briefly once, before I knew about the affair).

Have you seen Fields of Dreams? The classic father/son bonding movie. That's why a Dad want's a son---to go out and play catch with. They get the stuff with balls (no giggling...). However, if you remember the movie, Costner didn't have a son---he had a daughter.

For me, I love them all. Sometimes I don't get them---but they're all terrific. And my 8 year old daughter likes to go out for a catch just as much as my oldest.

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Catnip,

I realize you are actually asking more than just do men have a gender preference. That is why you are asking K. If you asking if it makes difference if OC is a male or female to a man, I cannot answer that. BUT, if you are asking the more general question, I will be happy to chime in if you wish.

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, JL, I would love your insight. It is something that has always made me crazy and never understood. That being said, I truly did want a man's perspective on this subject, primarily I know that about a year ago, there was discussion here where several women were admitting that they were glad their OC was a girl because they dreaded the "pull" a boy might have on the WS, especially if he didn't already have one. Also, there is someone on the board who's husband is demanding contact with his OC son and I was wondering if it would be different if the child would have been a girl.

Please chime in and give me your thoughts...I am very eager to hear all POV.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>

For me, I love them all. Sometimes I don't get them---but they're all terrific. And my 8 year old daughter likes to go out for a catch just as much as my oldest.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's because you are so evolved, K. And mature. I am guessing here, but I am presuming that most of the male WS's possess neither quality and instead harbor those romantic notions...with that far away look in their eyes and say "my Son", like it is a miniature version of themselves.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply...

God, your wife is a lucky woman.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I am going to chime in since I know ya'll dont mind.

I was curious about this question my self and asked om.

He said NO He was thrilled he had a daughter with me, and it wouldnt have mattered one way or the other, he would love a son or daughter.. But he admits he loves having daddy's little girl and He is amazing with her. I think he loves showing off his little girl, but I think he would equally love showing off a little boy. I think gender does not matter to most.

I dont think it matter's. I think it depends on the man and how he feels about his child he created.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION

Catnip,
If you don't mine me giving a piece of information. Well, my H always wanted a daughter not a son. He had the name picked out before I met him. OC is a boy and he has never seen him.

Dawn

Catnip,

You have asked a very hard question really. First a bit of background. I have three children: two boys and a girl. My W and I never wanted to know their gender until the moment of birth. It was like a great Christmas gift, and neither of us really cared.

But, what I wanted to say is a bit more subtle. I think there is still a bit of the "old world" or even "third world" that remains here. What do I mean? Well, if one has a family and does mostly manual labor at subsistance levels, then a male child is a very useful child to have. When he is older he can do hard manual labor, and he is an insurance policy when the parents get older. Won't die in childbirth, and overall has fewer health issues.

If a man has built a company, the idea of having the sons join the company and eventually taking over is compelling. Why? Because a company is this man's creation, much as a woman creates a child. A boy is going to have to work all of his life, whereas woman actually have a choice and that choice isn't preordained. So it is more likely that a son will want to take over the company from Dad. Yet, a daughter can take over a business IN THIS COUNTRY and run it, it isn't so in many other parts of the world.

Finally, there is an interesting issue of identification. My father is long deceased and my mother is up in years, yet I know more about and understand my father in ways my mother has never ever be able to. Why? Well, my father did dangerous work, and from a very early age I was trained (as the oldest and a male) about finances, work, taking care of my mother when he was gone. When my father's health failed, I was the one that was going to have to advise my mother about finances, not my sisters. I knew what my father's work had cost him, in longevity, and stress, because I was destined to work all my life as he did.

Now my sister's are much more empathetic to my mother. They are mothers, and yes even grandmothers. There are things about my mother's life I really cannot understand and childbirth is only one thing.

Where am I going? I think the image you have of men preferring to have boys to carry on the family name is true, but not as strong as you think. It has it's utilitarian purpose. I think women might favor girls a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yet it is true in my family that I clash with the boys much more than I do with my daughter and my W is pretty much the opposite.

In my world, unless my children are given the same drive to do what I am doing, there is nothing for me to pass on to them. Interestingly, my daughter is the one with the scientific interests not my sons. She is also a very good athlete as are my sons. But, it an odd way she appreciates what I do and do for the family more than my sons and even my W.

Have I got you confused? I hope so because what I am really saying is that I don't think many men really have a preference. Frankly, the idea of having all of them the same gender would bother me more.

But, there is one thing that I suspect you may be right about with regard to your H's OC. We tend to know what it will take for our own gender to survive and succeed, and thus might well feel the need to train them and teach them more. A woman with a girl, and a man with a boy. So perhaps your H would have been more torn if the OC was a boy with no male influence in his life.

I cannot really say.

I realize this is even more complex and I also realize that the gender roles are changing so even the basic stereotypes are failing. Yet, I think the preferences you worry about were always more utilitarian than emotionally based and I suspect accounts for my lack of interest in which gender my children were. I suspect that is also true for most men. A little girl can sure put a smile on Daddy's face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will stop now. Hopefully, this will incite more discussion. I hope you realize that you are hearing from an "old fossil" who was raised in the 40's and 50's but throughly enjoy those 60's and 70's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JL

Thank you MOF and Dawn...I really appreciate your comments and so glad to know that your little girls are not dismissed, but are cherished and appreciated.

And, JL, I knew I could count on you to fully explain to me what I basically intellectually knew but have difficulty resolving this on a "feeling" level. I just wanted to take the pulse of how men feel about this issue "these days" as opposed to when I grew up in the fifties and sixties....even seventies.

Women have made significant strides in the last thirty years and many are leaders in commerce and politics more than ever before and I suppose, making them more "valuable" in the eyes of society in general. I hated saying 'valuable' because I have always thought women valuable and it gives the impression that women feel devalued and that they felt devalued as children.

And, sometimes they were. But I do understand what you are saying in the context of evolution and the basic requirements for survival and the roles each gender plays in it.

I realized that I had not finished my thought and abandoned my post because I was having difficulty expressing myself what I meant so I came back to edit. Thanks again.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Hi, Catnip, hope you don't mind my two cents but your question moved me to reply.

When my child (conceived by my xMM but being raised by my H & I) turned out to be a boy I realized that God did that on purpose to make it easier for my husband to bond with him. I don't mean to say that my H would not have loved a girl, but I think its been a little easier for him to accept knowing that he has a like-minded little "bud." Infact, before my son was born, H hung 2 of his vintage surboards in son's nursery. Now that sonny is 8 months old, H takes him out on Saturday mornings to check the waves together.

Now, looking at it from the xMM's point of view, I thought that my having a boy might tug at his heartstrings a bit more and that he would want to be a part of his son's life. (In fact, on one of our last outings xMM was teaching me baseball grips to teach our son someday.) But he has made no attempt to contact us since the baby was born. Logically, I know its probably better that way, but I often wonder how he can turn himself off from his own flesh and blood - especially knowing he's a boy.

Catnip,

One thing you said really bothered me and I don't want to start a raging debate, but I think women have always been "valued". I think a lot of rhetoric has been thrownaround about by various movements suggesting they are/were not. It reminds me of our current teaching of history that the civil war was about slavery. It was not started because of slavery and slavery was used aminly as an emotional recruiting tool. That is not to say that ending slavery was not a good thing to do, but what is now taught is not accurate.

I think this is true about women. Men have always valued women, they have died in wars for them, duals for them, and committed suicide over them. I know it is popular and look back and interpret through our modern eyes how people felt hundreds or thousands of years ago, but let's be clear on one fact. Women were valued and protected or there would be no human race.

In fact what most people don't recall is that until about the 1920's or later men outlived women, so there was a surplus of men. Not a good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> My point, as with the idea that men and yes even women would prefer male babies, the data shows that clearly that isn't the case and if it were then women would be "valued" even more because they would be rarer.

I think there in lies the rub. What men or women prefer or thought they preferred was out of their control unless they selectively killed the babies after they were born. This rarely if ever happened. Further, while there are some people that are very glad they have all boys I know as many that are happy that they have all girls.

I just think on the whole even if there is a stated preference, the reality is that once the baby is born you love those little rascals. THey really aren't defenseless you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Quite frankly given that the most common phrase uttered by males is: "Your WHAT??" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I don't think the concept of preference is all that strong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Catnip,
I thought I'd chime in myself..I hope you don't mind.
I can't say for sure but I do know that om did some odd things when I had the baby. He posted It's a Boy signs all over our office and sent out an email the entire company saying the same along with height and weight and name.
He also said in an angry moment that he was thankful his oldest child is a boy, so he wouldn't feel as hurt and angry at me for stealing his son. (ouch..) He later apologized for saying that but I think deep down, he meant it.
I imagine he would have said the same thing if he were a her.. The gender of a child seems to stir certain expectations of how your relationship with form over the years. Whether it be playing t-ball, teaching the how to's of changing oil or walking them down the aisle.
OM has said a few times when we've done things together with child, that he struggles with loosing his child. Being known as "OM" by first name. I think he would feel that way even if he were a girl.

my h OC is a boy and he is now 6, there was cantact with my H & OC for about 3 months when OC was 4, We have 3 daughters and MY husband is the type that likes to hug and cuddle the girls, he is not the type that feels he can do this with a boy, therefore the fact that the OC is a son has made this easier on me and him,if it had been a girl there would havebeen more of a need to see and know the OC on his part, also I always remeber the old saying, frgive me if its not quite right but it goes something like this " A son,s a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter all of her life! " everyone knows that it's Daddy's little girl and mommy's little boy always, my sister in law is the perfect example she has 3 sons and a daughter and the daughter is all daddy's for sure!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Catnip,

One thing you said really bothered me and I don't want to start a raging debate, but I think women have always been "valued". I think a lot of rhetoric has been thrownaround about by various movements suggesting they are/were not. JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not to worry, JL...I have never been one of the sheep to grovel at the altar of political correctness in any form, having been a small "L" libertarian for years. As a history buff myself, I concur with your assessment of the gender roles played throughout the decades. I know what you are saying is accurate. But, that wasn't really my angst du jour as much as it is just the 'feeling' that men are more puffed up about fathering a boy in 'some' instances.

I am recalling what it was like for me personally growing up. Within my family, I held court and Grandfathers and Dad thought I was damn adorable. And smart, clever and wise. So, I was lucky. But when I got to school, it was the boys who were most often favored by the nuns and teachers in the fifties and sixties.

And that's OK...I am old school anyway. I am resentful of the women who have ruined it for me over the past three decades. It has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. I can feel myself gearing up for a tangent about how I miss the deference, the car doors opened for me, my cigarette lit, my chair pulled out, how I miss the obvious respect not to cuss in front of me, the consideration of giving up his seat on the crowded bus for me when I was pregnant and my ankles were swollen like I was a Clydesdale.

Those days are long gone, JL, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

But, back to my point...it really has nothing to do with women's rights or anything as complex as our journey of shifting roles through the eras. I just wanted to know if men secretly harbor a desire or feel more of a pull for a son. I wondered about my relief when I found out OC was a girl and I wondered about the conversation here a year ago when several admitted here they were glad their OC was a girl. It might be just something WE think or feel and WE might be the ones projecting this onto our husbands.

It's fun talking with you, JL...you are an endless font of interesting information and logic. I always learn so much. Your delivery never offends and I watch you take great pains to be cordial and polite. I appreciate you taking so much time with all of us. You and K are both are so generous.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB]
I can't say for sure but I do know that om did some odd things when I had the baby. He posted It's a Boy signs all over our office and sent out an email the entire company saying the same along with height and weight and name.

See? This is the mindset I was trying to describe. Thank you, CMiranda for offering this bit of a glimpse into male behavor/thinking. It isn't overt enough to really put your finger on it but its there, I think...or can be, or has been. We've all seen it before at one time or another. (My God, what did you do when you heard he did all this?)

The gender of a child seems to stir certain expectations of how your relationship with form over the years. Whether it be playing t-ball, teaching the how to's of changing oil or walking them down the aisle.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, CM...you're right.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by neverforget:
[QB]" A son,s a son till he takes a wife, a daughter's a daughter all of her life!QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NF

Yup, that's the saying...you did get it right and you know, there is certainly more than a grain of truth in it, too.

My own Mother chanted that to me over and over for years...probably in an attempt to make sure I wouldn't move out of state. Haha

Thanks for your insight, NF...men do sometimes have a tougher time showing a little boy the same affection they show the girls, probably because they are afraid too many hugs will make them sissies or something equally as ridiculous.

Catnip =^^=

Catnip,

I don't think men don't hug boys as much as girls because they worry they will be sissies. Although, there is an element of that I will get to later.

I think it has more to do with training. I know in my case I don't want my children calling adults by their first names, unless specifically asked to do so. I don't want my children to grow up be excessively familiar with people they just meet.

Why? When they get into the world such familiarity can get them into big trouble and they won't know it happened until they get passed over for a promotion or not recommended for a job.

Women can get away with hugging one another alot, but in our society men can not. Even more interesting as women continue to advance at the coorprorate levels they have become more formal, and a lot less huggy, touchy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In deed, these days men cannot afford to be in the habit if hugging children much less adults. They will be brought up on molestation charges. It is to the point in the schools around here where the male teachers are reluctant to even treat minor wounds or lift a child up, because of the lawsuites and accusations.

MESSAGE: More today than ever men shouldn't get in the habit of showing physical effection. Where is that learned? At home. Sad but true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I consciously decided that I would not hug my boys or even my Daughter much because they needed to know how to behave. That doesn't mean I won't hold them if there is a real problem, but it is strictly hands off. I think in today's environment it is dangerous to teach a male that physical contact with another person especially children is proper.

Isn't that sick? I think so, but to do otherwise is pretty foolish. Too many sexual harassement suits and other things.

Which brings me to the traditional aspects of men not doing this with boys, and really it is just a variation of the modern theme. My father wanted me to be able to function and handle the "real" world. It was a world where very rarely were compliments stated, but critisism was common. You had better be able to function without someone helping you deal with this. Sort of like the saying when I grew up. "You weren't in trouble when the coach was yelling at you, you were in trouble when he quit yelling at you."

The point was simply that if you needed hugging and comfort as women seemed to need then you weren't going to make it in "a man's" world. Interestingly, as women have entered the workplace and it definitely isn't a "man's world" anymore, the need to remain in the hands off, almost homophobic state, has actually increased not decreased.

It is very hard in reality. I have coached youth sports, been active with scouting, and with HS kids. And there are times when you just want to reach down and hug them, and comfort them, but you cannot do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The world really ought to be different but it is not.

Well, this post has gotten far afield from your initial question. Speaking of your initial question, there was a post by I think YellowRose. An interesting aspect of her H's issues is that his parents wanted a girl and he wasn't it, and so he was pretty much ignored by the family. I mention this not to counter your initial question, but to point out how devastating it is when a preconceived desire is allowed to overwhelm reality. No matter who is doing it. Not that you needed convincing, but it seems to work both ways.

I think that CM made an excellent point, our dreams for our children should and most often do start AFTER the child is born. The real problems when they do before the child is born.

Must go, somehow your comment trigger some thoughts as you can see. Sorry for taking up this thread with what amounts to social commentary, rather than something useful.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB]
I can't say for sure but I do know that om did some odd things when I had the baby. He posted It's a Boy signs all over our office and sent out an email the entire company saying the same along with height and weight and name.

See? This is the mindset I was trying to describe. Thank you, CMiranda for offering this bit of a glimpse into male behavor/thinking. It isn't overt enough to really put your finger on it but its there, I think...or can be, or has been. We've all seen it before at one time or another. (My God, what did you do when you heard he did all this?)

The gender of a child seems to stir certain expectations of how your relationship with form over the years. Whether it be playing t-ball, teaching the how to's of changing oil or walking them down the aisle.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, CM...you're right.

Catnip =^^=</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right, it wasn't overt enough for me to understand really, I questioned in my thoughts why he'd do that and never really understood his actions. He was excited in some out of the normal kind of way.
I found the email by mistake. He didn't realize I would be checking so soon, and he had gone into my mailbox and marked it for deletion, but hadn't removed it when I came along about a week later and found it addressed to the entire company. I never said anything about it. When I brought the baby in one day when he was about a month old, he was acting, bubbly, and he asked if he could watch him while I got pulled into a problem that had been going on. I took that as him needing to see him, so that he could let go. Rather than always wondering.
The last time we had lunch, son brought along alittle car to play with. I went chasing after him when he decided to explore, and when we got back xOM was holding the car with his head hung low, staring at it. I will never forget the look on his face.
I always thought he was being selfish, letting us go without a fight. I know I am wrong about that. He was selfless in so many ways toward everyone. Coming to this site has offered me a fresh perspective for which I am enternally grateful. For it is the thought of him being selfish, that drove me mad and toward full blown rage. Rage that was going to blow up one day.
That lunch was the first time it had occured to me that he wasn't some cold hearted male, devoid of feelings. I noticed him several times turning and looking at baby, just staring at him. I think what the others wrote in another thread, about the other parent giving up the child, like an adoption, to the H, without all the legalities, is really perfectly right. Having a heart grand enough to forsake themselves to give the child and the existing children, a chance at a traditional life.
I have seen a side of many of the BS's here lately, a side that shows how human we all are, a side that proves even the wounded can empathize, and those "on the other side" wonder about their choices just as I do. It shows me how we are all just human, making our way as best we can. There is no predetermined paths, we all are blazing our own trails in this life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Original post by Just Learning:<strong>MESSAGE: More today than ever men shouldn't get in the habit of showing physical effection. Where is that learned? At home. Sad but true. I consciously decided that I would not hug my boys or even my Daughter much because they needed to know how to behave. That doesn't mean I won't hold them if there is a real problem, but it is strictly hands off. I think in today's environment it is dangerous to teach a male that physical contact with another person especially children is proper.

Isn't that sick? I think so, but to do otherwise is pretty foolish. Too many sexual harassement suits and other things.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, unfortunately there is a tendency in this country to go overboard when these tragic situations occur.

I'm afraid what kind of emotional zombies our boys will become when they become men. Unable to show affection to their wives or children all because of the political correctness that was the flavor of the era when they grew up. If some women today fall head over heals over jerks that treat them like crap, I can just imagine how many more women then will turn to our sociopathic (and psychopathic) brothers for warmth and affection all because the 'normal' men are unable to do so because of their upbringing.

Sad? indeed.