when 2 people truly love each other but they just can't seem to get it together, when do you reach that point where enough is ENOUGH!!!!??? please read the bottom tag to get a picture of what i meant when i said, "can't seem to get it together..... what would you do in my shoes? and why? thanks, peace tim

tuff,
The board is usually slow on weekends (unfortunately this is a 3day too).

There are several guys on the board who are successfully raising the OC as their own. "K" has the most excellent advice. I think the best results are when there's no contact w/XOP.

In many states the husband is considered the legal father unless DNA is done by age of 2. Decide if you can make a go of your marriage before the legal limits re: the OC (so you aren't paying ch-support unnecessarily for OC). Two years is still time to work on your marriage.

Is Wife living with you now or with OM?? Read the Harley principles for good marriage. No one can know what your limits are, but there is hope even for those marriages dealing with OC!

Hope you get more replies asap!
J
in recovery 4 years and happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It sounds like it's time for you to start thinking about cutting your losses. It's difficult enough having a wife that goes around sleeping with other men, but when she gets pregnant by one of them and decides that you need to help raise the fetus, you really need to reevaluate the nature of your relationship. Don't let her walk all over you; has there been ANY indication that she won't do this again? No. My opinion is leave her to her own devices and move on.

G

Hi

MB is about saving Marriages not destroying what's left. There are other resourceful people here to give you input.

I'm in the same boat that you are in only my H did this to me, we are now communicating. Please get with people here, that will add to who you are and not take away the little you have left.

I say please don't give up it's not always true once a cheater always a cheater. There are people here that are working through there issue with the help of MB.

Gad-dang, Gordo...are you the anti-christ or something? Are you aware of the site you are posting on? THIS IS MARRIAGE BUILDERS...not marriage destructo.

Watch what you say, Gordo...there are delicate newbies here in extraordinary pain, seeking guidance to restore their marriages. Until you understand the program and the principles, butt out.

Tuff:

There are lots of people here in your situation that should be coming along shortly. Like Jenny said, weekends are very slow and I know when you seem to need someone the most, no one is here.

Maybe you could elaborate a little more on your situation and tell us aobut your marriage and the level of commitment you and your wife have had until all this happened. Is she still seeing or involved with OM? If so, just about the only thing that can be done is to begin/implement a strong Plan A. Please read everything you can about the Plans, Policies and Principles here on this site and don't do anything rash. Take your time to get through the trauma of discovery and keep posting here. You can recover, you will eventually heal and your marriage can be restored if this is what you want and if this is what your wife wants. There are some wonderful people here with lots of recovery and experience who will be along soon to talk to you.

God bless, Tuff...

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ October 13, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

tuff,,,,,, i have one question. do you have any c's from your current m? it sounds like your w has not made the decision to recommit herself to your m. you have some very hard choices to make and to do that you need to gain all the information possible to do this. read all you can here as there is some great stuff to help you. you should also take some time in making that choice as you need to look deep inside yourself to see whether you can even move on with your m. you will have to find forgiveness for your w. (my major draw back as i have always been very hard when it comes to issues of morality. but i am trying) you will also have to find out whether you can except someone else's child into your home and deal with possible visitation from om should your w choose to try and rebuild your m. there is one thing that stood out that was different then my situation in your post. that your w had been in a very long term a while my w had a fairly short one of 3-4 months. from others here it seems that the longer the a the harder it is for the ws to come out of the praverbial fog. so this may take some time for your w also.

i don't post all that often but lurk regularly so i will watch to see how you are doing and reply if i feel i can help in any way. good luck, pops

wow way more response than i thought,

thank you all.

Jenny and Cat, ww is living w/me ...kinda... she has been here on the "guise" of helping me sell the house. she has been to see him(250 mls away) about 4 times in the last 6 months. at least a week each time. she has a cell phone and speaks to him nightly for an average of an hour to an hour and a half. she at least has the "courtesy" to talk away from me with closed door. we have been married 11 years and together for 13 years. we are both Christians, and at one time she was deep in the faith. we sleep in the same bed naked and cuddle nightly. she tells me she loves me daily and i her in return. we make love approximately 3 times per week(assuming she is not w/him that week). she filed for divorce which will finalize on Jan. 13th if she allows it to go through. i hurt her with an addiction to pornography prior to her 2nd affair. i have since gone to a 12 step group and so far i am 6 months "clean" AND it had happened very infrequently since i started the group in oct./01. we have no children.

her story is, " i wish i would have known before i started emotionally pulling away from you what kind of man you would've turned out like, i never would've done this. i never wanted to hurt you. i fealt unloved and cheated(pornography). the om was there for me and made me feel #1 in his life. i want to come back, but he has an electric (sexual) pull on me that i can't seem to escape when i am near him. and to make matters worse, i feel like you could never get past the child and the adultry. will you take me back if i tell him goodbye?"

thats a kick in the [censored] huh?

peace
tim

Check this site for the Emotional Needs questionnaire and also the Love Buster Questionnaire. Before you even think of divorce, you really should try everything you can to save your marriage, don't you think? An Other Child (OC) is not the end of the world... nor the end of the marriage...

You have come to the right place to find answers about what might have gone wrong in your marriage that led up to the affair and really get to the root of the problems and fix them. It does take two. It sounds like your W is remorseful, but also kind of sounds like she is trying to make sure she doesn't end up alone... (?)

Educate yourself! This site is a great place to start! Check the Q&A section--there is loads of excellent advice there and keep posting! Your marriage is not over, especially if you still love your wife!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hbby/tuff_decision,

In answer to your question,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when 2 people truly love each other but they just can't seem to get it together, when do you reach that point where enough is ENOUGH!!!!??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My answer would be NEVER.

Your story sounds a lot like mine. I, too, felt as your wife does about her lover. I never thought I could break the connection. Then, when I got pregnant I thought for sure my husband would never be able to get past it all.

But he did. And he absolutely adores our son. And I went to no contact with OM, which is critical if true recovery is ever going to happen.
It takes a while for the "fog" to lift but once it does and your wife can see you and appreciate you for who you are, you'll find you are in a whole different ballgame. Love deposits can be made and emotional needs can be addressed and met.

I'd say there is definitly hope. From one who now stands on the other side of that muddy puddle...

Wishing you well,
Noplacelikehome

noplacelikehome

awwwwww.... that is the peace washing over me that you have unleashed by your words that can only come from someone who has literally been there. no i "think" this or i "would" do that. you are EXACTLY the person i want to squeeze information out of like a toothpaste tube that is almost empty but you just KNOW you can get more from.

if you have msn im or yahoo im i know... not think.... that you will help me tremendously with your telling of your experiance. i pray that you have the will and the strength to reach out and provide the gift of wisdom and knowledge that only people like you and i can know.

feel free, (in fact i beg of you) to contact me at lipripper69@hotmail.com (its a fishing metaphor)

peace to all... i say again peace, a priceless comodity in our situations

tim

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!, DANGER!

IM between MB members can be dangerous for that is how many an A have started in the first place.

While I don't think that NoPlaceLikeHome is susceptible to an EA, I beleive that you, hbby/tuff_decision, ARE because you are still suffering your WW's A and are very vulnerable to falling into one of your own. It doesn't matter that you are a practicing Christian, EVERYBODY is in danger of getting into one. EA's do not have to be reciprocal, they can also be one sided too.

Please think about what I said.

h/t_d:

What do YOU want 2 do? If you love your W, you should count your blessings that she wants 2 come back 2 YOU.

You have a lot of work 2 do 2 make this happen. Heck, you have a lot of work 2 do even if you don't get back with your W. So, hunker down and do the rebuilding!!!

Get with a counselor as soon as possible, and get your W 2 go with you if she will. But go anyway if she won't.

Don't just blow the M apart because of what's happened. Regardless of what she's "done" 2 your M, your W is a human being just as deserving of a rewarding relationship with you as you are with her. People make mistakes. Some of them are rather horrible (this one isn't by comparison 2 some on the news!). So, I ask again, Do you love your W? If you do, then there's your solution. LOVE HER.

all my best,

h/t_d,

I would like to make some suggestions. First, you should talk to your W about what she feels the role of the OM in your OC's life will be. You need to understand that accepting the little child in your life should be done for you, not as a sacrifice for your W. She is very likely not going to be as appreciative of your sacrifice as you think and this will lead to resentment in your marriage.

You need to ask yourself some very very hard questions and also ask your W these same questions. She doesn't want to take a risk by losing OM and losing you, but if you are to stay she must make some sort of commitment.

Believe me if she thinks you are a good man now, so will other women. Given that you don't have children you really do need to consider, that your Porn addiction didn't lead her to this, this is her rationalization for what she did. It is good that you have let that go and working on ending it, but her choices were no better than yours and have led to serious repercussions: a child born. No 12 step program can fix this, just adults taking responsibility for what they did.

Several men on this cite have overcome this situation, most had children with their W's. Noplacelikehome's H is somewhat unique here. In reading her posts, I am not sure that she realizes how unique her situation is.

Please keep reading here, there are more here who have been where you are with regard to their W being pregnant by the OM. It is truely a horrendous situation making the A all the worse.

So do the reading people here have suggested. Take your time as suggested, and realize that to date your W hasn't really wanted you back. She is still talking with OM, see OM, and relying on OM. There needs to be some evidence that she is serious about you being the one she wants to be married to. The cake eating must stop in my mind.

Frankly, you should read about Plan A and Plan B. It seems as if you are plan A'ing, but it may come to a point where you go to plan B. Do your homework, ask lots of questions, and pray that you finally get the insight needed to make this very difficult decision.

God Bless,

JL

Dear Tuff,

I am sorry to have to welcome another betrayed spouse to this site. I think you have gotten some good advice so far (except from good ole Gordo).

Here is a link to my story (MJ's story) or at least part of my story. I am here on this board because my H had an affair that led to a child but I am also on another point of the child/infidelity triangle. I am a child conceived of an affair.

I am not trying to trivialize the pain of an unfaithful spouse and a child born of an affair. I have been where you are now (well with the obvious exceptions). With this post and link I just want to point out that, if a man is willing to accept and love this child, that the relationship that develops can be very special.

I am sorry for all you are going through.

I wish you God's peace and the wholeness we can only know through Him,
MJ

<small>[ October 15, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

hbby/tuff_decision,

I am glad you were able to gather some strength and hope from my reply. If you haven't already, feel free to read some of my posts. Its all there in black and white - beginning with my fog, through the withdrawal, and now to the rebirth of my marriage.

While I agree with TooMuchCoffeeMan that it would be dangerous for us to e-mail outside of this forum, I will give my husband your e-mail address and ask him to share his side of things with you. While I've encouraged him to join in here, I think he might feel a little more comfortable with a one-on-one situation. In the meantime, I will be happy to keep responding to your posts. If God can use my story to help or encourage someone else, then I'm an open book.

(By the way, thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan, for being on the lookout.)

JustLearning had a good point in that I might not fully appreciate the uniqueness of my situation. But I can say that with every day it becomes more clear and I am filled with more gratitude than the day before. If God can bring my marriage back from the dead, then I believe He can yours. And if God can put love in my husband's heart for our child, although not biologically his, then I believe He can do the same for you. And if God's transforming power can renew my mind and break the yoke of bondage I had with OM, then I believe He do the same for your wife.

Remember, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

Noplacelikehome

thank you all,

my first reaction to coffee's and just learning's posts was to get defensive and become combative because i came here "believing" this was a safe place to air my very hurt and confused feelings. i digess. i must not have been descriptive enough in my posts to explain the truth and pain that is in my heart and mind regarding this tragic situation.

#1. although it says junior member on my profile, be assured that i have read all of plans a & b, all Q&A that apply to my situation, articles posted pertaining to adultry, and as many posts as i can absorb within the limited time i have to be on the computer due to work and other comitments.

#2. i would certainly not be here if i did not love my wife to the bottom of my soul and heart which is now writhing in pain of rejection and hurt from the thought that it has all been a big "lie" that we have lived in the past 13 yrs. during the past 6 months since d-day, i have been told so many hurtful, spiteful and down right evil things from the woman i fealt love, security, passion, and hope for. i have read about the "fog" of adultry and attribute many of the lies and spiteful quips to this fog, but i am concerned about her "true" feelings. all the things she has told me in the past 6 months are certainly not lies or fogged in comments.

#3. my decision that i must make in the near future is based on these 1st 2 points and many other things in our life that i don't have time to mention in 1 post. i feel i must decipher what was lie and truth, and when will lies stop and truth begin from her. i need to take all the time i need to make this decision due to the fact that it will decide most of the paths my/our lives will lead down. i am the type of person who looks at decisions of this magnitude as permanent. once i have decided, i will not waiver and i will do everything in my power to carry it out.

#4. i have read his/her needs, the snare(lois rabey), righteous sinners(ron julian)and am in the midst of after the affair(janis abrahms spring). the books and articles/Q&A on this site, have helped. i am now looking for "living" examples of my situation. people who have "been to hell and BACK" and are willing to give testimony and advice that is priceless, literaly priceless, to a man faced with the decision i have unwillingly been forced to make. i was told by my grandpa, "son, you can do it the hard way OR you can listen to the guy who has already done it the hard way and can show you the yellow brick road to wisdom you need to make life's decisions. men who are respected and looked up to tend to do the latter with consistancy. God is a gentleman boy, follow his lead and you will be the man you and many others respect, but more than all this, the man God respects. you cannot earn anything more precious on this earth than the respect of God. now, you can believe this old man OR you can do it the hard way." i will never forget that moment in the garden with grandpa. i will also respect his wisdom enough to follow it "consistantly".

knowing these 4 points, this is why i was so excited to see noplacelikehome's post. i understand the reluctance to get "personal". i simply wanted to spare any of you a conversation that was specific in nature. i now realise that only i can know my true intentions towards her and based on that knowledge, understand and respect your warning coffee.

i will do all it takes now to not look back at this decision 5 years from now and say,"i should've this or i could've that."

peace to all
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be affraid.
John 16:33 I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

tim

tim:

You have a VERY wise grandpa there!

This will be hard, but it's all about YOUR survival FIRST AND FOREMOST. Your M may ALSO survive, but even if it does not, YOU will be a better H for the learning you do.

All my best,

h/t_d,

The key to this is going to be your decision to decide to rebuild or not. If you decide not, then you know what to do, although very unpleasant. If it is rebuild, then you must address your W's reluctance to really work on this yet and remove OM from her life. Sure does sound simple doesn't it? But I know that you know it is not.

I am glad that you have done the reading. You have a foundation along with your Grandpa's advice to make the best decision you can make in a very very poor situation.

So take your time, gather your facts, deal with your feelings, and see if your W really is serious, I suspect you will KNOW what the right decision is when the time comes. I have mentioned before, but I will mention it to you. It have been my observation, that all big decisions eventually become no decisions at all. I could go either way, but to go one way would be in the face of all of the data presented to me. The hardest thing to do is be firm with yourself and your beliefs but not be hardheaded.

So have some patience and quietly gather your resources and information. I think you will know in your heart and mind which is the right way to go.

I am hoping that K and a few others will post to you. I suspect he is on travel or working hard. He is an amazing man as you will learn when he posts.

Hang in there and...
God Bless,

JL

hbby,

Well, I'm glad that you're up on the reading, are familiar with the website, and have some background in the MB methodology. You seem pretty determined to recover your marriage---so I'll play devil's advocate in a second. But my first piece of advice is this:

Get into counseling with Steve Harley today---888-639-1639 for appointments

The bottom line is that you need a plan, and you don't have a lot of time to put it in place. You've gotten a lot of advice to "if the WW is willing to completely commit to the marriage... go for it". That's good advice, but it's very rarely the case that an affair actually ends that way. What is more likely to happen is that the WW will have mixed feelings, be suffering through withdrawal, and won't "Love" you at this point in time. If you're serious about recovering your marriage through this, you need the training and skills on how to deal with this in a productive fashion in order to build love. That's where Steve comes in.

OK, the caveats that I see in your situation are this:

You don't have any children with your wife. If you do not divorce her, you will be financially responsible for this child---and child support is a big chunk of your pay, should you get divorced (figure 20% of gross). You haven't had children yet, and that concerns me. Did you want kids? Do you have an idea of the work that being a parent entails? In my case, my wife was pregnant (through affair) with child #3---the question that I had to ask was "could I love this child???". That's not an easy question to answer, but at least I had the background of being a father to two kids already, and I knew that fatherhood was something that I enjoyed---it wasn't an unknown. It probably is for you---and this isn't something to be taken lightly. In fact, Dr. Harley (not necessarily Steve) would probably talk to your wife as well as you, and if there were indications that the affair was still strong---he might recommend that she go off with the OM and you divorce her. This is simply because of the fact that you have no children together (however, you have a pretty long marriage history, which is worth something).

So, those are my warnings. If you're willing to work through them, I'm going to repeat myself and tell you to immediately get into counseling with Steve (I did it for a year). He was terrific for me in this situation, and most people on the site who have counseled with him (and others) think that he's 10 times the counselor most of the others are.

If you choose not to, it'll be a mistake (IMO). However, the MB things you should address personally are the complete elimination of lovebusters. In addition, you should become thoroughly immersed in the concept of Radical Honesty (without LB's) and the Policy of Joint Agreement. These are the two tools that your wife and you need to use to reconcile. You need to be very honest with each other (even if it hurts---and frankly, I'd be shocked if it doesn't). You have to come up with solutions to your situation that you both "enthusiastically agree" upon---which is nearly impossible, given the circumstances. The good news is that if you can make progress and learn these skills now, you'll be in excellent shape down the road regarding your marriage.

I can give you bunches of "rules" like the fact that your WW should "want" to reconcile, that the OM should not be involved, etc... But your situation will be unique. What you need to really focus on is the rule of honesty and the POJA and work with your wife to coming up with a plan to deal with this. As the spouse who seems to be more enthusiastic about reconciling, it's going to be your job to lead the effort---you have to express confidence in the decision to reconcile the marriage, while not being disrespectful to your wife during withdrawal (very hard---my wife cried about how the one she loved (OM) wouldn't be able to be at the birth...) or lovebusting.

Call Steve---it will be well worth the effort and expense. 888-639-1639.

k and others

thanks again

k. appointment already set for Monday morning, but thanks for that advice.

i don't know honestly if i can love the other child. i do know i love his/her momma though. we have not had kids due to her/mine infertility problems. she lost alotta weight recently due to weight loss surgery and that has made her become fertile again.

i think divorcing her is "the easy way out", and i don't wanna look back and say.... i took the easy way, but i shoulda done this or that. after the shoulda done's are all exhausted and reconciliation is not in the cards, i will carry out the divoce with the same zeal as i have spent trying to find an answer that is "right" for us in this situation.

peace
tim