hi all,

i thank you for all your support. i hope i was one tenth as supportive to at least one of you as you all were to me.

i saw the baby on the sonigram(sp?). i melted. i loved it(weird huh considering it's 95% probability of not being mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). but nevertheless, i realized right then and there that i Could and certainly WOULD love this baby as my own if the situation turned out that way. i consequently had an epiphany. i will not allow myself to get attached to a baby that i will "maybe" raise, and maybe not raise. that sent the wheels turning in my lil pea brain. what i came up with is.......

i spent an hour and a half logically pointing out the situation to her. i asked her questions, slowly proceding towards my ultimatum. questions like:

when i asked you yesterday in church, "am i gonna lose you?", and you said "no, no, NO!" and then hugged me, does he ask the same question? and if so, what is your response to his query?

she said, "yes he does, and my response was, "I'm not sure" in the begining of the A and now it is "i am not ready to lose you yet".

I asked, "does that mean you know you will come to me eventually?"

she replied, "in the back of my head i know that to be the truth, but i am still confused. and i still feel like i'm not ready to give him up yet"

I asked, "it seems like you are not confused, just selfish. you seem to know what is going to happen, which counts out confusion. your actions point to the fact that it just feels too good right now to stop, and maybe you are "milking" the deadline for all its worth. I have told you how much you hurt me through this, and that everytime you talk to him or see him it wreaks havoc with my senses. you say you don't mean to hurt me, but the cold facts are that you are hurting me, and to the core. do you believe and understand this ideology?

she became deathly silent.

i persisted.

she patronisingly responded, "Yes ok, yes, but i am not hurting you on purpose, and never had that intention from the start!!!"

i explained that she knew it would hurt me before she did it, and that she certainly knows it in the more recent past. i have told her many times and have even gone to the point of detailing why i have the excrutiating pain, and what she specificly does to cause it. yet she still persists in seeing him.

i asked her if he is getting "fed up"?

she said he gave her a must decide date of Nov. 2. that is his birthday.

feeling like this may be a never ending saga, and knowing the baby is not something i want to love now and then not have later, and knowing that everytime she talks to him on the phone or sees him physically it kills me internally to the point of wretching uncontrolably and bleeding from my mouth and nether regions, and knowing that she had a pattern of adultry before this time, and knowing that i was doing all the reconciliation work and she was participating when and where she pleased, i decided on a drastic measure after getting out of the conversation to think it through.

i knew that she and he had plans of seeing each other this weekend. i explained to her that i was not here to attack her or to berate her in any way. i am here to help her and us become a famaily again. logically, there is no other conclusion for my presence. i told her that it is time for her to act. no more talk. if this marriage is important enough to HER(not just me) then she will not see him again. she will come to me with HER plan of reconciliation. if i find out she has seen him, i will not be here for her, or offer my hand of reconciliation to her again. i am through waiting patiently. i will not have a wife that is blatantly hurtful and ungodly. if it is important enough for her to "sacrifice" the relationship with him, and she has a true desire to get us back to a loving husband wife relationship, then i will more than happilly join her in that venture. if any other result happens, i must realise that our reconciliation can and would never work if i am the only enthusiastic partner.

no real questions, just venting. helps me to pass the time of my last "waiting period".

Hebrews 13:4 "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and the sexually immoral.
Proverbs 6:32-35 "But a man who commits adultry lacks judgement; whoever does so destroys himself. Blows and disgrace are his lot, and his shame will NEVER be wiped away; for jealousy arouses a husbands fury, and he will show no mercy when he takes revenge. He will not accept any compensation; he will refuse the bribe, however great it is.

Patty, never forget this, the one you underlined in my Bible:
Php. 1:6 "being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus."

peace
tim

tuff,
My heart goes out to you. I've always felt I could love the OC; I kind of envy those who get to raise OC without the XOP.

However, you describe a very tough situation in your wife's attitude and bad behavior (actions speak louder than words). I don't have any advice; you're already doing tremendously.

Prayers,
J

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

Whats up HBBY,

You are strong, and keep up the faith... Hopefully your W, comes around and totally lets go of the OM. Wish you the best...

AmLo

Hubby,

You need to stop questioning your wife on the issue of the affair. The bottom line is that she still has deep feelings for this guy---and those are not going to instantly disappear.

When you tell her that she's not confused, only selfish---that's a major lovebuster. You're not listening to her, and you're using a disrespectful judgement to make a point. This isn't your job. You should be in counseling with Steve (if you're not)---that's his job. And frankly, the terrific way that Steve does that is to have your wife reach the same conclusion on her own, with gentle leading. Because until your wife reaches this conclusion, any attempts to educate her, guilt her, reason with her---they're all lovebusters in her eyes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i told her that it is time for her to act. no more talk. if this marriage is important enough to HER(not just me) then she will not see him again. she will come to me with HER plan of reconciliation. if i find out she has seen him, i will not be here for her, or offer my hand of reconciliation to her again. i am through waiting patiently. i will not have a wife that is blatantly hurtful and ungodly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Selfish demands, disrespectful judgements... they won't get you anywhere. If you truly want your marriage, they've got to stop. This affair is on the clock now---it's extremely unlikely that she's going to bring this child to term in a waffling situation. She's going to decide one way or the other---you want to eliminate ANY lovebusters during this time (even if she chooses to leave---because there's a strong likelihood that she'll be back). When my wife was pregnant---the OM pressured her, threatened her, etc. I hung back and didn't---I told her that I loved her, and that we could work through this, and at NO time did I ever give her a deadline. It wasn't necessary.

You're doing a decent job, Hubby. But I don't want to see decent. I want to see you do an outstanding job---because if you want this marriage, it's what you're going to need. If you're not counseling with Steve, do so. He'll certainly help you with your plan (and your behaviors). And if your wife gets involved, he'll be a great resource to "educate" her, which is something that you can't afford.

God bless.

hbby,,,,,, sorry i stopped posting to you but i read my posts and they seemed more a rehashing of my past then helpful so i decided to stop.

this may be a different position then then dr harley may advocate but i feel that you are setting boundries that need to be clearly outlined. this is where i feel i went wrong with fh. i just kept on wavering on the whatever you want i will always be here for you fence. and to this day i still stuggle with myself for allowing her to run over me. it is a major hurdle for me now in our rebuilding process. i believe that had i set the boundries early in fh's ea she may not have fallen into the pa. i may have lost her also. i could be wrong and that is just second guessing but i know i would have been happier with myself had i set some form of boundry.

i agree that you should probably quit questioning her on her feelings for om. i would think that if she is still planning visits with him and ohone conversations with him that should tell you of her true feelings for him. if not try looking into her eyes when she first hears his voice on the phone and then again when you talk to her. see if the same feeling are transmitted each time. believe me you will see where her heart is.

i wish i would have found this site earlier in my w's a. oh well good luck, pops

thanks all

a marriage is a 2 way street and i, like pops wish i hadn't created an environment that made it "easier" for my wife to cheat. my pornography was haneous, disrespectful to her very womanhood, and a sin issue that i had lugged around for WAY too long. i feel even worse considering my/our faith places me at the head of the marriage, and I am supposed to be the spiritual leader of said marriage. i had a long history(20 years) of abusing this medium. i know i am a sex addict.
the knowledge that my marriage was on the rocks was by far the biggest motivating factor in my process of admitting, and subsequently getting help for my sin/addiction.

my wife, on the other hand, was sexually abused as a young child and then physically abused until the age of 17. this has created a scar in her that continues to open and fester because she has not healed it properly with counseling and Biblical/spiritual help. the books i have unearthed(in my constant yearning to heal OUR,"not mine or her", marriage) have spoken to me and allowed me to understand some of her mysterious, at times, and downright rebelious behavior at other times. they unanimously state that if left untreated, the acting out behavior caused by the root problem will continue to manifest itself in unwanted and uncontrolable ways. these behaviors are not only destructive and unwanted by the sufferer and the folks around him/her, they also become more frequent and more destructive. ascending to the point where the sufferer is truly out of control with them and will consequently destroy relationships and there own integrity and sence of themselves if left untreated to the end.

these 2 paragraphs may help you understand where our marriage is, and my ideas for repair.

k, you are a highly respected member of this board and have the MB principles down to the letter. I will never attempt to debate these 2 areas with you, as i understand the fruitlessness of that path before i head down it. i will however, explain my actions and hopefully shed light on my attempt to reconcile without losing or compromising my integrity(which is already slim due to the porn).

you open your advice with "You need to stop questioning your wife on the issue of the affair".

i disagree. i am a firm believer of not ignoring the fact that "the emperor is not wearing any clothes". if it is an obvious truth, i will not ignore it. i will not allow gross misconduct and breaching of God's word #1 and our precious marrital vows #2 to go unchecked and swept under the rug to "ease her pain".

you continue; "When you tell her that she's not confused, only selfish---that's a major lovebuster. You're not listening to her, and you're using a disrespectful judgement to make a point. This isn't your job"

i prefaced that statement with many leading questions that make it obvious beyond a shadow of a doubt that selfishness is one of her biggest motivations. if thats not enough, she admitted to me that she is being selfish but doesn't know how to stop. confusion, which is the excuse she used, is simply an obvious copout to give her more time to make her mind up and enjoy more of him and me in the mean time. i'm not insinuating that she has no (strong)feelings for him or me, i am forcing her to stop hurting either of us,herself, and lastly, our marriage, by having no contact with us both until her decision is made.
in regards to the word disrespect you used, i am livid over that use. i am bringing the disrespect to an end by recognizing, and stating the facts. no more dancing around issues to make it easier for her to continue this haneous,unresponsible and downright evil behavior. i am forcing HER to take responsibility, and stop DISRESPECTING herself, our marriage, her faith/GOD, and me. this seems to me to be one of the most respectful things i could do. unorthodox, painful and confrontational, but most respectful none the less.
in regards to "this isn't your job". i am the husband, i feel this is the unique qualification i need to make such requests and judgements. the 2 will become one. in that respect, i am judging myself.

your text reads, "Selfish demands, disrespectful judgements... they won't get you anywhere. If you truly want your marriage, they've got to stop."

you are right, they will stop very abruptly when she decides. i told her if she decides to give herself to reconciliation, i will leave demands and judgements of her behavior behind and bring the light of healing, love and truth to bear. i truly "want"(really thirst for) our marriage. there is obviously no other logical reason for me to be here. currently, there is no marriage. marriage is a commitment between 2 people, not 3. when it is back to 2 people, we have a marriage. what we have now is an aboration or a perversion if you will. i will not accept this, and neither do i deserve this. nor does any other human being.
funny thing is, if you posed the exact same statement to her, it would be most appropriate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . i am showing that i "want" the marriage by my actions, she has led us to this undesired place.

you continue, "You're doing a decent job, Hubby"

thank you K. all the harsh words i have used to rebut your post does not take any respect away from you. i truly thank you. i stated earlier in my post that i have no other logical reason to be here except to help. the same is true for you K. i thank you for your invaluable help.

in conclusion, you can and probably will bring light upon my many errors in judgement regarding this decision and my manner of carrying it out. there is one truth you cannot refute though.

the Bible says, Psalms 41:12 "In my integrity you uphold me and set me in your presence forever."
Pr 10:9 "The man of integrity walks securely"
Psalms 37:5-6 "Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him and he will do this: He will make your righteousness shine like the dawn, the justice of your cause like the noonday sun."

i have left it all up to her and forced her to stop hurting all involved. if she goes to him i will bow out and know that our marriage would have crumbled had we tried to reconcile with her not being 100% commited.

if she comes to me then i will unequivacally know how much our marriage and therefore how much "I" mean to her and it will be a very STRONG foundation for what promises to be a wonderfully blessed and much needed rebuilding process we will enthusiasticly(for the most part) undertake.

every man is different. i fealt my integrity was eroding rapidly. it was happening because i was allowing my wife to behave in this detestible manner, knowing i had the means to stop her from degrading our marriage further and i wasn't using the tool God had given me as the spiritual leader of our marriage. i could no longer sacrifice my integrity and our marrital integrity by allowing her to continue to do what God says is wrong and detestible.

peace
tim
1 Cor. 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

i hope everyone including my precious BABYDOLL know that i have done all this out of true love for her and most importantly, GOD.
i long for the days when we can again walk hand in hand on the beach with your hair flowing down and smiles as big as bananas.

hubby,

I'm not going to argue that you're not "right" or "just". I'm just going to point out the fact that you may not be married---and no amount of righteousness or justice will heal that. Marriage does not always function on a righteous or justice plane---it often needs forgiveness, compassion, and understanding. And most of all, spouses are most easily compelled to "do the right thing" when they are in romantic love with their spouse.

What I want you to do, for now, is focus on your behaviors, and see whether they build or tear down the potential for romantic love with your wife. The fact of the matter is that right now---your wife may have much more romantic love for the OM than she does for you. That's a hard pill to swallow---but remember, that romantic love is a behavioral response to how someone treats you, and romantic love can be rebuilt again. Your goal is to save the marriage---it would clearly be the path that God would wish you to take. Nothing I suggest is a compromise in biblical principles---your walk is what you must work on, and you cannot force your wife to go along.

If you maintain your cool, learn new behaviors to rebuild romantic love (and to not destroy it with these lovebusters)---you are doing the best you can for your marriage. I understand that this is very difficult (I went through this myself...), but you have a very short timeframe here. It's likely that your wife will decide within the next three months or so. You do not want to be preaching to her (especially OT), because you'll easily be able to find appropriate passages to subject her to stoning, death, and eternal damnation too (and she knows it). You need to set a good example, and offer her your hand (your support)---but she will need to be the one to grasp it.

Let me pick on a couple examples:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am forcing HER to take responsibility, and stop DISRESPECTING herself, our marriage, her faith/GOD, and me. this seems to me to be one of the most respectful things i could do. unorthodox, painful and confrontational, but most respectful none the less.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't force anyone to do anything. Can you imagine how poorly this tact works with teenagers, for example? This confrontational approach is completely orthodox---you're confronting because you're in pain and you want it to stop. It's what most people confronting an affair do. But it's not effective, when you see how many of these marriages end up in divorce. I would prefer you to be compassionate, be an effective listener, and be empathetic---while learning and exhibiting new behaviors an a profound, Godly sense of confidence in a restored marriage.

Your wife knows that you're in pain. But she's in more right now---and all of her own doing. She's not doing this intentionally, and the farther down she goes, the worse it will be for her. But it's going to be her decision to stop it---you will never be able to force her to stop, and you will likely push her farther away from you (and God) if you try.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i will not accept this, and neither do i deserve this. nor does any other human being.
funny thing is, if you posed the exact same statement to her, it would be most appropriate </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she were here asking for advice, I would certainly guide her in the direction you're looking for. But she's not---you are. You are completely right---no one deserves this nightmare. But you have to deal with it, and it is a great opportunity for personal and spiritual growth, as well as an opportunity for you to recover your marriage. I want to see you make the most of this. If you are in too much "pain" to deal with this with her---then you should kindly request a separation from her (with no contact), until she decides.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was allowing my wife to behave in this detestible manner, knowing i had the means to stop her from degrading our marriage further and i wasn't using the tool God had given me as the spiritual leader of our marriage. i could no longer sacrifice my integrity and our marrital integrity by allowing her to continue to do what God says is wrong and detestible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're not responsible for your wife's behavior here---don't feel that you are. Although you may have brought problems to your marriage---this is her issue. I still see the issue is that you're not using the "tool" that God has given you---you're trying to force your wife to behave. As a spiritual leader, you must lead by example. You don't lead by force. Jesus never lead by force. He showed compassion, mercy, and love to the sinner---to demonstrate their worthfullness in God's eyes. Try to do the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him and he will do this: He will make your righteousness shine like the dawn, the justice of your cause like the noonday sun."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a beautiful passage from Psalms. Think about Jesus's interactions with sinners, and commit yourself to this path. He will make your righteousness shine like dawn, the justice of your cause like the noonday sun. You don't want your righteousness to thunder down, and your justice to be a bolt of lightning.

And for heaven's sake, please call and get an appointment with Steve (888-639-1639). I thank God for putting me in touch with him---he really can help save your marriage and your sanity.

k,

i enjoy a good debate at times and my friend, you are have top notch skills.

i think we agree on most of our ideas of marriage and for that matter life. but, there are(i believe) some fundamental differences that i'd like to address here.

1. my quote, " I am forcing HER to take responsibility, and stop DISRESPECTING herself, our marriage, her faith/GOD, and me."

your response, "You can't force anyone to do anything."

i both agree and disagree with your quote. i errantly stated that i am "forcing" her to take responsibility, stop disrespecting herself, and her GOD. you are right, i cannot force her to do these things.

i am however "forcing" her to respect our marriage by offering her a choice. respect the marriage or i will end it. very simple but effective.

i am "forcing" her to respect me by offering the same choice. respect me or i will leave your sphere of influence. again, simple yet effective.

2. my quote, "I was allowing my wife to behave in this detestible manner...."

your response, "You're not responsible for your wife's behavior here"

notice, i use the verb allow and you use responsible. these are 2 very different trains of thought. i agree with you, i am not responsible for her behavior, but i did allow it to continue, knowing it was very wrong and that i could and should do what God would have me do about it.

continued from previous due to computer problems.

3. your quote, "As a spiritual leader, you must lead by example. You don't lead by force. Jesus never lead by force."

i agree, force is not right, i used the wrong words to explain my train of thought. i am offering her a choice, as Jesus did in the Gospels. freewill.

4. your quote, "Jesus never lead by force. He showed compassion, mercy, and love to the sinner---to demonstrate their worthfullness in God's eyes."

you are right on all accounts, and if you stopped reading there, you must have a very flowery one sided view of Jesus' teachings.

He did promise compassion, mercy and love to the sinner.......... that repents and follows Him and His commands. He was very upfront and matter of fact with His teachings. If you follow Him, you will have all those verbs above that you quoted, if not, you would get a host of others that are not quite as pleasant as those. Jesus never sugarcoated his message to the people as not to step on their fragile psyche's or "force" them into making a decision. He gave his message clearly(well not so clear in the parables at times) and unappologetically to everyone equally. Jesus would never compromise His message(the truth) in avoidance of confrontation. quite the opposite(ask the Pharisee's and Sadduce's). Jesus explained the choice he was "forcing"(because by not making a choice you are choosing in Jesus' mind) people to make, and then explained the 2 consequences of these choices in graphic and brutal detail. He allowed the people making the choice to see the entire picture before they had to choose. He then went on to command those who decided to follow him in all the ways he would have them behave.

last point. i promise.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

you opened with, "I'm not going to argue that you're not "right" or "just". I'm just going to point out the fact that you may not be married---and no amount of righteousness or justice will heal that. Marriage does not always function on a righteous or justice plane...."

in my opinion, the biggest fundamental rift between your view and mine is this......

k= save marriage at all cost

tim= walk with Jesus in righteousness and justice, and if the marriage is saved as a by-product of that walk, all the better. if not, it was not worth saving in the beginning.

Ephesians 5:22-23 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as (most important part to make my point) Christ is the head of the church,"

Jesus is compassionate to the church, but never once did he lower his own morality based on the psyche or frame of mind of the church. Once the church has commited to him, he will not allow them to go to other gods. Jesus is a true gentleman, he offers his hand and if you don't want to follow him, he won't force you, but that will not slow him down, you will simply be left behind based on your own choice. but, he does sit in judgement of the church, and expects it to be submissive of his will. he expects the church to love him with all their heart, mind and spirit, forsaking all others for him. Christ explains how to handle one who is a fellow christian yet sins against you in Matthew 18:15-17 and Paul describes roughly the same format in 1 Corinthians 5:11. Don't be deceived, Christ did not come to bring peace, but to pit loved ones against loved ones as one chooses to follow him and the other chooses not to.(paraphrasing Matt 10:34-36)

i cannot change the way i was before today, nor can i help Patty change her past. i can make a conscious effort to follow the will of God and let the chips fall where they may, and i will to the best of my ability.

my worth on this earth is not based on a marriage or anything else of this earth. it is totally based on my relationship with Christ, and i will act accordingly.

peace
tim

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hbby/tuff_decision:
[QB]no more dancing around issues to make it easier for her to continue this haneous,unresponsible and downright evil behavior. i am forcing HER to take responsibility, and stop DISRESPECTING herself, our marriage, her faith/GOD, and me. this seems to me to be one of the most respectful things i could do. unorthodox, painful and confrontational, but most respectful none the less.
in regards to "this isn't your job". i am the husband, i feel this is the unique qualification i need to make such requests and judgements. the 2 will become one. in that respect, i am judging myself.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Tim, I see you certainly have your rigid ideas intact and you are adamant about how all this is going to go down. However, Tim, I truly believe that this mindset will do nothing except create rebellion in your wife.

The longer you stick around and study the Harley principles and hopefully take K's advice and get couseling through Harley, the better are your chances of reconcilliation. This will happen on God's terms not yours. No matter how you interpret the Scriptures, Tim, things are going to play out according to God's will, not yours. You will have to open yourself up to accepting other ways of hadling this situation and your wife.

Personally, I believe God and Divine Intervention brings peiople like us to this site and that God is using Harley as a tool for us to find our way back into our marriages. You cannot browbeat your wife into submission or insist she does this or that. If you do, you will fail miserably. Human nature dictates we all resist oppression in any form. If you are tailoring the Scriptures to win arguments with your wife, she will sour against all of this and run the other way.

You know, Tim, I'd go with the experts here. The one person on this site who has had a miraculous and lasting recovery and dispenses the wisest information available is K. The BEST thing you could do for yourself and for your marriage is to stop whatever you are doing and go into K's history and read all his posts. This will be an invaluable treasure trove of priceless information and understanding. It will help you be better informed how to proceed successfully, and you will have to dismantle your preconceived notions in your thinking process.

I know you are very young and very passionate and are desperate to fix this situation. Like many here, you will soon realize you are basically powerless and have to relinquish the reins to God, who is all powerful. God has given you "tools" to use to do what you must and can do, and leave the rest to Him.

Good luck and God bless.

Catnip =^^=

Tim

I think you are missing the point here. One is that K is for saving a marriage at all costs. He is not. Further, neither is Dr. Harley. Go into the q&A section of his letters and read up on the subject of children by the OP. He recommends that if there is a child by an OP, that unless there are other children, the BS divorce and let the WS and OP raise this child. Please read this.

He is not saying one should do this, but he recommends that the consider this. K is telling you that you are absolutely right about everything you say and feel. EXCEPT, that you will be as they say in the traffic schools, dead right.

You my friend are spending too much time on your W and her failures, Biblically and socially. What you need to decide is IF you get a chance to reconcile this marriage do you want to. It really is that simple.

What is God telling you in your heart? What are your boundaries? How will you know when you have had enough? Are you happy with your role in your marriage, and have you done enough to be proud of your efforts to save the marriage?

Giving your W ultimatums is foolhardy. She knows she stands to lose you. Quoting scripture to her is fool hardy, only when God talks to HER will her heart be turned.

Your job Tim, is simple. Decide when enough is enough, and when you reach that point leave. Simply leave. She will know why, she may or may not grieve the loss. But Tim work on your self.

There is a question that is often asked here: "Would you rather be right, or married?" You have the moral high ground, and you can lob rocks on your sinning W all you want, but I believe that Jesus had a few things to those that wanted to throw rocks.

My recommendation follows K's and Cat's recommendations. Work on your self. Do your best to let your W make her own decisions in her own time. You make your own decisions in your own time, and first and foremost is whether you want to continue to fight for this marriage.

Don't you like the term "fight" for the marriage? That is what you have been doing. Showing anger, making judgements, quoting scripture, talking about forgiveness, ... But, what "fight" really means is to "fight" yourself and your natural instincts to protect yourself and the minimize the pain. It means to fight your tendency to lash out, to deliver ultimatums, and let time and your own healing take place. Deciding if this is really what you want, based on the "facts" of your marriage and your deep seated beliefs, not on the pain.

This is a long post so I will spare you a joke I just love, that discusses the issues of "simple and easy". Really your path is "simple", but it sure isn't easy.

Give your W time Tim. Give yourself time and quietly decide where your limits are and when you get there go beyond them. Your faith will carry you. But, there will come a time when the decision will become obvious and you will be ready to make it because you will have done all you can to make it comfortable for your W to come back.

So please reread all that K has said to you, you really didn't understand it the first time. As for loving a debate, that is good if you are in a debating club, or perhaps in a court of law, or among like minded friends, but it is bad if you are seeking advice, and it is deadly to a marriage.

Just some thoughts, I hope something some one here has said will bring you a few moments of pease.

God Bless,

JL

wow,

i thank all of you for your wonderful replies. i appologize for the combative and even rude style i have displayed.

i will leave my ultimatum on the table. it is my boundry. i hope you all will at least respect my perogative to do so even though it flies directly in the face of the MB principles. i understand why you are all so strongly opposed.

if i lose my marriage to my wife, i will be heartbroken, but it will not be the end of the world for me. i have a good future promissed with her or without.

i know most of your opinions vividly. i have talked to pastors, good friends and a counseler.
i respect all involved.

i know you are all here to help and have no other motive because there is no $ involved. by posting my ultimatum on this site, i realize that it is akin to flying in on delta airlines to an amtrack convention and then explaining the benefits of plane travel versus train travel to the audiance. the audiance would certainly have many prepared reasons why not to fly, and they would all be valid and logical. the point is, the plane flyer has good reasons to fly, yet there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of him convincing the amtrack conventioners of any of them. he would sound combative and maybe even rude for even attempting to show his logic.

i fully understand the risk of my actions. i have prayed daily for my wife and her om to come to grips with the mistake they are both making.

i use scripture to explain things i do in my daily life. i hope you all don't think i was preaching to you by doing this. i have tried to allow God's Word to guide me and scripture is a natural by-product. my intent is to offer folks a point of view that i believe in,not to sound "holier than thou", and due to your comments, i have decided to work on my "delivery".

i find it rather odd that the Christians who have posted in opposition of my viewpoint didn't use scripture to reinforce their ideas, knowing that that probably will make their ideas instantly credible to me based on my scripture usage.

to me, it all comes down to integrity at all cost versus the compromisation of said integrity for the future good. this is an integrity issue for me.... maybe not for someone else, but for me it is. i hope and pray to be on the "reconciliation" board one day with my wife and i trying to find the best ways for us to reconcile our once battered (by us both) marriage. and if not, i will be hurting for a long time, but i will be able to look into my saviors eyes and know my integrity is intact, and continue on the path he would have me walk.

in regards to this issue, a pastor told me, "He never said it would be easy to follow Him, He does promise the ultimate reward to those who sacrifice the things of this earth when they conflict with the things of the Spirit. You have come to one of many crossroads in life that you will be faced with. one road may seem impossible and make no sense to you now, but He would have you go down it. if you go down the path that He says to go, no matter how tough it looks, it will ultimately be the easiest because you will be walking with Him and IN HIM!"

peace
tim

hbby,

I find it interesting that you see debate and rejection of your ideas even when there is none. You need to sharpen up your listening skills and here your reading skills.

We are not against you setting your boundaries, what K and others are saying is that there are different ways to do this, some more successful than others. As for not quoting scripture to you, why would anyone do that since you have read it already and seem fully capable of quoting all the scripture you need.

My friend you don't need quotes, you need patience in this most difficult of time. With this patience and your deep beliefs should come enough calm that you can see the way that is to be laid out before you. It will happen, you will know what the correct decisions for YOU is. Not necessarily the correct decision for your W. That is her path to take.

If you were to go read carefully this site, you will see the very essence of what you are talking about described in very pragmatic terms. After all you really don't want to be responsible for driving your W to making a decision that is against your beliefs and hers, but given her present condition you have the power to do that.

Pretty awesome isn't it? You can drive your W to further damage her life, all the while feeling you have the right to do it.

Hbby, please back off abit and really see what your scriptures are telling you, ALL of them, not just the selected ones that seem to buttress your arguements. This isn't a debating class where points are scored and arguements judged. THe judging will come in the by and by, the points don't matter.

This is real life, there is a child involved and many adults, you, your W, the OM, many relatives, and many people you will meet in the future. So calm down a bit, you have set your boundaries, she has heard them. Now the only real issue is will she believe that you can truely forgive her and accept her back? Will this be a place of pease or constant reminders of what she has done?

You haven't shown her that side yet. THat is what K is saying. You really ought to go read his story, and what he has endured.

So please don't go titling at windmills that don't exist. We are not against you, but you have heard from some people here with far more experience than you, and yes many of them are indeed Christians. More importantly they have successfully found a way to survive this situation.

Style counts as well as content Hbby. So please consider this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is a brief run down on K's story. K's story

<small>[ October 28, 2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Okay Hubby, you want scripture, here's some scripture:

Genesis 32;24-28

So Jacob was left alone and a man (an angel) with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."

But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

The man asked him, "What is your name?"

"Jacob," he answered.

Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

===============================================

So you see hubby, what the word is trying to tell you is that there is no TESTIMONY without TEST. God sent that angel to Jacob in his darkest hour to test him. But Jacob held on because he knew God had a blessing for him. He knew he couldn't give up until he received his blessing.

Blessings aren't passed out to the weak at heart or spirit. They are given to the faithful who lift his name in praise. They are given to those who do not dare foresake him. They are given to those who fight for his will.

I too was in your shoes with a wishy washy husband who didn't know his a$$ from a hole in the wall. He even had an emotional affair with a best family friend of ours after d-day of OW/OC.

Oh so many nights I wanted to give up. So many nights I wanted to walk out. So many nights I wanted to die. But I kept praying, I kept my faith. I stopped worrying about what he was going to do and when he was going to do it. I worried about myself and making me the best person I could be so that when God touched my husband's heart, I would be ready to receive him in the manner a wife should.

I knew my blessing would come and you must know yours will too. Put your wife in God's hands. he will touch her heart and bring her back into his fold. He always retrieves his stray sheep.

Hang onto your marriage. But hang on with faith. Prepare yourself to be the most loving, forgiving, supportive husband for when she "comes home."

She will see the change in you and make you all the more "attractive." She'll want the peace in her heart that she sees in yours.

I know you love you wife, it is obvious. But is so clear to everyone here that your blunt style will push your wife away. What she need most right now is to run into your arms. Be there with open arms when she's ready.

Z.

thank you all

this will be the last post i post on this topic, and most probably, these boards in general. i know exactly where you all are coming from after the many posts, and the massive amount of reading this sites literature. i think anymore "rehashing" of this issue will be beating a dead horse.

please know i mean know disrespect and i know you don't either. i am not a child JL and your posts are condesending in nature in places, but i do understand their point and appreciate your point of view and your wisdom. thank you Zebra for the scripture. your delivery may need a little "tweeking" like mine...lol(at myself).

your quote, "Okay Hubby, you want scripture, here's some scripture:" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

to use my former metaphore, i know exactly what the audiance at the amtrack convention thinks, and i hope they understand or at least respect my perogative to fly. that said, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

bottom line is, she knows what she is doing with him is wrong, even detestible. she openly admits it to me. she knows exactly to the letter where i stand on this and what needs to happen (on both our parts, not just her) in order for us to start a much needed reconciliation process. she is not a 2 year old who does things impulsively, not thinking of the consequences, caring only about the consequences when they inevitably arrive. she is a grown woman who knows in advance she can and will take responsibility for her actions.

by the nature of your posts i think some of you think i have made a knee-jerk decision in this case. i assure you that not only is that never my "style" when i am faced with huge decisions, but this decision took unbelievable examination, prayer, and much advice from respected people in my life. if you go back and read my posts, you will read my decision making process take place before your eyes, and this may enlighten you as to the awareness factor i have of the rock bottom foundational level of this decision prior to making it.

the debate thing was said out of a playfullness of the "back and forth" nature of K and my opinions(there is no right or wrong here i hope you all know). it was never meant to imply i do not understand the bedrock serious consequences of the situation i am putting my wife, myself, our marriage, and the om in. it is a very simple decision for her that will probably be the "hardest" decisions she may ever make.

the fact that i don't have any control of what decision my wife makes forces me to give it to God. God will talk to her as Zebra says, and i pray he touches her heart.

she knows what the right decision is with God, and she also has the fleshly(selfish) side of her pulling the opposite way. this is a Spiritual battle only she can fight.

judgeing from her past performance with Spiritual battles, this could go either way. funny thing is, they were scheduled (already planned b4 ultimatum) to see each other last weekend and she decided not to go. seems she at least understands the levity of her next action, whether with him or me. that is what i prayed for. she was going to have to make this decision in time regardless of the om or my actions. my ultimatum seems to have ended her "vacilation period" and brought the real fact that her actions alone would decide her future and a host of others.

please do not think i disrespect the MB principles or the Harley's. i have looked at it from many angles, and decided not to take their advice "this time". i personally (just me) have come to the conclusion that the marriage and my integrity is at stake if i sit back and do nothing, knowing i can give her an ultimatum, while she continues her adultrous affair with my full knowledge. that is a fundamental decision that has no wrong or right answer and can only be decided at a very personal level.

my prayers go to all in these boards, and i will continue them in earnest.
peace
tim
love is a verb,
1 Corinthians 12:31-entire 13th chapter.
John 15:9-11

hbby..

I apologize in advance, but this is what I thought about after reading through your posts here. I really wanted this to come across with a lot of love even though it may not sound like it. I just thought there was some urgency.

Eph 5:25. Jesus gave up his life to make His bride holy and clean. He asks you to do the same thing. What have you done, what changes have you made how have you given up your life to make her clean and holy?

You have every right to D your W. So did Joseph w/ Mary. God told Hosea to marry Gomer and stay with her even though God knew hat she would do. Sticking with her isn’t without precedent.

Jesus knows what one way love is. He has given everyone until the time of there death to become repentant. Yet, He’s still there for everyone in their trials. You are supposed to be the head of the household. You are the Jesus in your M

How long were you doing/not doing the things that enabled your W to have the A? How long did she stick with you before she thought you would never change? How long did it take you to repent from the destructive things you were doing? How long do you think God would have waited for you to repent? How long…20 years right? The time you've given your W to stop her addiction to OM is what?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is a Spiritual battle only she can fight.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The enemy is attacking her, you are supposed to be fighting with her, you should be defending her against his attacks. Praying with her and for her. She's alone against the enemy. Like a pack of wolves tearing at her. And your saying she needs to fight this one alone? My heart goes out for her.

I believe God will ask you why you weren’t there to love her and protect her while He was working on her heart.

Take this for what ever you think it’s worth IMVHO).

S&C

hbby,,,,, i can understand your views on this matter. you use the term ultimatum. is this not simply your boundry. just another quick question, did you know of your wifes earliest a at the time it was going on? just curious. ias i said i can understand how you feel as i was ready to move on with my life and fh was only in her a four about 3 months. i had let go and was ready to start over. now i try to find those old felings again. i have always been the type to never look back. as you can see in my byline we have 6 kids together so there is much more then just my feelings to consider.

s and c,,,,,,,
i am the last person to try and debate biblical verse with as i am not that sharp on them. your reference to joseph and mary left out the fact that joseph was inded going to leave her until the angel came down and explained whose child she was caring.

hbby i wish you luck with your journey no matter which path your w chooses to follow. you are strong in your faith and this is a great advantage in life. i had slipped alittle in that area but this thread has started the wheels turning again. thank you all who have paticipated in it. pops

Wow Steadfast,

this blew me away:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The enemy is attacking her, you are supposed to be fighting with her, you should be defending her against his attacks. Praying with her and for her. She's alone against the enemy. Like a pack of wolves tearing at her. And your saying she needs to fight this one alone? My heart goes out for her.

I believe God will ask you why you weren&#8217;t there to love her and protect her while He was working on her heart.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't even know what to say. You moved me with those two paragraphs.

Thank you is all I can say.
Z.