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<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: whatif? ]</small>

Whatif,
As much as i didn't want to be involved in visitation in the beginning, but in order to work towards saving my marriage, I accepted the OC. t was very difficult in the beginning, but after getting into a routine after about 4 months, it became easier.

I almost got to the point of when V was cancelled, I was disappointed. But all that really doesn't matter anymore at this point. We are separated now, and H can not figure out what he wants in his life.

Tina

Tina,

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: whatif? ]</small>

Whatif
I hope you didn't get the wrong message from me. I think visitation was working for us. It was OW that was working against us. He was just not ready to sever his ties with her. And she was making him feel guilty that the OC needed a full time father. I was beginning to form a bond with the OC. We just needed more time to try and make it work.
After 27 years of marriage, I was ready to try anything that might help in recovery.

Tina

whatif,
You make a good point for 'newbies' to seriously consider.

However, I don't see how no contact is being "pushed". The posters who have contact have not been as active lately, but I think the forum allows both viewpoints.

I'm truly glad visition is working for some. Is your XOP reasonable to work with? What a blessing that would be.

I hope visitation can work because that's probably what we'll be doing. My ex has OW and baby living with him "since she has no job, no family,...didn't have anywhere to go and I can't put the baby out on the streets." Baby is now 4 months old (Born 6-15-02) He has Down Syndrome. For some reason, my ex says that he hasn't been able to get the results of the paternity test. Doesn't make sense to me in this length of time. He signed a Medical Release of Information this week for me to get the results. We'll see. Anyhow, my ex brought the little fellow over to visit about one month ago. I got to hold him, feed him, and rock him. Ex did diaper duty! Such an innocent little sweetheart!! He truely deserves to be loved for who he is, not the circumstances of his birth. At the same time, I really don't want to deal with the OW. If there is a "no contact" in place between OW and Ex, who does that leave to set up visits? Ex is supposed to be moving out of apartment this week since OW now gets Social Security for the baby's "handicap". We'll see. I am concerned about becoming responsible for a child who may have a life long dependency. I'm glad to see the issue coming back in these postings about integrating the OC into one's life.

God bless all of you who can deal with OC in your life!!!! Don't you just see that Affair in your face?? How much can one person deal with, yes it's sad for the OC is was'nt there fault that two adults acted so selffishly, I feel that's for them to deal with. Sorry new here but just can't see me with OC don't think I even want husband anymore, let alone something that brought him pleasure and destoyed me why would I want anything to do with it??????/ I can't even look in the baby isisle in a store without getting sick to my stomache!!!!!! what marriage is worth all that embrassement!!!!!!!1. I do feel not everthing is meant forever. How long can we just candycoat these affair's resulting in OC??????
Jill

Contact CAN and does work when all parties (WS, BS and the OP) can work it out peacefully, or at least civilly.

So far, my situation is definite proof of that.

Refresher for “newbies”:
H had an A that resulted in a beautiful little girl; her cyber nickname is Lil Bit. She is now almost 16 months.
H and I filed to establish paternity and legitimate the baby BEFORE her birth. This angered the exOW, more because I was now involved than it was that H wanted to have contact.
After the DNA proved Lil Bit to be H’s child, we began getting her every other weekend. Then H began watching Lil Bit so that exOW would have a babysitter while she worked and H could bond with his D. I worked during this time frame, so I did not have as big a role as I have now. (All during these first few months, I am also learning more about exOW and her volatile past, causing me to worry about how fit this woman is to care for children.)
After a couple of weeks of the Babysitter situation, H was fed up with exOW leaving Lil Bit filthy every day. (She would have feces crusted within her privates, etc. and exOW refused to bathe her because she claimed Lil Bit was “allergic to water”) He called DCS and thus started a horrible court saga and exOW took Lil Bit and placed her in “private daycare.”
Finally the court judged that Lil Bit “had been at risk of abuse and neglect at the time of the petition” but that she no longer was at risk. Joint Custody was established and H was granted 51% of the time with Lil Bit.

Our Parenting time begins every Wednesday night and ends every Sunday morning.
12 wks ago, exOW lost her “babysitter” and now we are once again the “DayCare Provider” Monday-Wednesday while exOW works. So that has increased our time with Lil Bit.

We deal with exOW every Sunday morning, every Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday mornings and afternoons, then again on Wednesday evenings.

Our “silver lining” in the exOW storm is that we have much more time with Lil Bit than she does. She has said that she does not want Lil Bit but only wants to cause problems for H and me. IF she were able to cause the problems that she would like to, I am sure that contact would be difficult for me as well. But, because H and I are determined to rebuild our marriage, she is unable to do, as much damage as she has in the past and I believe that she is finally figuring out that her tricks won’t work.

What I am trying to say is that EVERY situation is different and not all people can handle contact. I was adamantly against contact in the beginning. I wanted nothing to do with this woman or the child that never should have been. It actually took me finding out about exOW’s past that caused me to change my mind.

When the OP is unreasonable, vindictive and hell-bent on destroying the marriage, I believe that the WS and BS are absolutely right for not having contact.

There are examples of both sides of this subject here on this board and both are given great support here. Neither side is to be “pushed,” only understood and supported. And I feel that it is done rather well.

HUGS and Prayers to all!

<small>[ October 27, 2002, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Stacia_Lee ]</small>

I am one that is doing well with no contact which happens to be my husband's choice as is mine. I don't believe I ever tried to push it down anyone's throat.

I agree with Stacia that what works for one situation doesn't work in another and in our case, visitation and contact would not and could not EVER be an option. Sad, but true. I'm happy to report that a marriage can heal and survive with or without contact. The main point being that both partners have to have a Joint policy of agreement and be in tune with each other's feelings.

It can work either way...contact or not...but every marriage, every affair (or one night, two night or three night stands) are different...everyone's OW/OM/OP are different...and some of them are downright psychos...who want to subject their betrayed spouse and innocent children of the home to some of their shenigans....theres a whole plethora of scenarios and we all live them out here on this board.

If you have contact...WONDERFUL...GOD BLESS YOU...if you don't, that's great too...it's what works best for you, your marriage and your situation.

Hugs and prayers to y'all...
Twiisty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whatif?:
<strong>There are soo many posters here who push and push and push for people to have no contact that I have to say sometimes contact can save a marriage and make you a saint in the eyes of your spouse your chilren and your step child. If you can be tough and use the law to your advantage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, as I have witnessed on this forum time after time after time, successful visitation is rarer than OW's cooperation and compassion. If I "push" for NO CONTACT, it is only because I believe the number one victim in this horror besides OC is the Betrayed Spouse and the marriage is and should be #1.

Halos are fine for saints, but be careful it doesn't slip down around your throat and choke you. There is only one thing less attractive than a needy and desperate wife, and that is one wearing a hair shirt.

Visitation is successful when all parties are mature, contrite, compassionate and lovingly focused on what is best for all involved. It doesn't work if there is a bitter OW with an axe to grind who is creating more sadness, more pain and more despair with evil games and using the OC as a pawn to manipulate or punish the WS who left the situation and returned to the Spouse. Too many OW's get off on punishing the WS and delight in causing the Betrayed further heartache. I don't know why this is, I only know this is a reality and unforutnately, the norm.

I am certaily happy for you that visitation works for you and that your husband appreciates the enormous sacrifice you make for him and for his child. You have been one of the lucky ones who have been able to overcome the obstacles and were able to come to a common understanding with the XOW. Good luck to you. I hope this situation of yours remains open and workable. Just remember that the possibility of this happening begins with an OW who wants only the best for her child and has no interest in punishing anyone and is willing to accept Betrayeds involvement without being jealous and threatened.

Catnip =^^=

Catnip,

This describes our dilema to a T. We have lil mama every other weekend. We actually should have her from Friday night until Monday mornings, but decided to take a gradual approach to spending that chunk of time with her.
My H recently told xow that we would be returning lil mama to daycare (which is a provision in the visitation order, we CAN return her to daycare on Monday mornings when we've been out of town). However, he was met w/ opposition.
We would be messing up her routine????
The xow's actions in our case have proven time and time again to be childish. It's like she thinks we can't see through the thinly-veiled excuse of doing what's best for baby. Every step we've taken to get closer to the baby (without the xow's involvement) has been met w/ drama.
She is the most unrepentent, insensitive woman I've ever seen and could care less about everyone's feelings.

Well,
here's my point, the above problem has been forwarded to my H's lawyer to handle. We will not now, or ever, sit back and provide xow w/ entertainment as a result of her drama. Our lawyer has 'firmly suggested' that our proprosed compromise would be far more beneficial than going before the judge yet again, and somehow, I think she'll agree.
GET AND KEEP A LAWYER IF YOU PLAN CONTACT!!!! IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO HAVE THE LAW ON YOUR SIDE AND AVOID DUMB-AZZ DRAMA.

I think there is a danger in contact with the oc that noone has mentioned yet. When my h and I had regular visitation with my h's oc, aside from the occasional rough patch, I really did ok with it and grew to care very much for the oc. My children began to love her as well. However, my h couldn't take it. The guilt he had overwhelmed him and changed him completely. He became abusive towards me, and i really believe that it stemmed from hating himself. I think he turned his self-loathing onto me, and it destroyed our marriage. And maybe he had longing for the other woman that he did not want to admit - I'm not sure that that is the case after four years of no-contact, but I can't rule it out, either. Now we are divorced, and he doesn't bother to see oc at all. It would be as if she did not exist, if it were not for the fact that my oldest son, who is staying with my parents while I complete law school, attends the same school as his half-sister and sees her in the hallways. This is hard on him, b/c she does not seem to recognize him (she is only in kindergarten and her time with us was probably too limited to make a lasting impression). Son can't understand why the little sister doesn't say hi or acknowlege him. I meanwhile, miss having her in my life - I grew somewhat attached, and now of course have absolutely no legal ties to her, or claim to her, other than being the mother of her half-siblings. My five year old son, who is just two days older than the oc, found a picture of her in my desk drawer one evening, and said wistfully, "Hey Mom, remember when this girl used to be my little sister?" He about broke my heart. It is all very very sad. I would caution those who are contemplating contact to think about the possible affects that it may have on the WS as well as the BS.

-cdcollins

What an interesting topic.And CD, so nice to hear from you. Can you email me some time? I lost your email address when I was having computer virus problems.

Now for my opinion.

I agree with so much of what is said. For me, I don't feel like changing my life to save my M . That includes contact with OC. I see what if says that trying visitation that works brings forward more love from H and kids. I have plenty of love from my kids, and I don't feel I have to do this to get love from H. I feel having no contact is the way I need from my H to try and rebuild love towards him. He has lost much of that from me, and visitation takes even more.

What OW and H fail to see, is , because of their mistake,and my H admits OC was a huge mistake, they ask the BS and the BS's children to change their entire lives for OC. I think that is unfair and unreasonable.After all, I did nothing wrong. Now, in the best possible worlds, the OC would have access to father.But this is a very weird arrangement for all. I don't think it is healthy for anyone to incorporate two families who had nothing to do with each other except that a man and woman betrayed a family, had a secret life they now want to be made whole together. Without consent of BS. It doesn't always work this way.Further, I think acting as if this is easy, or capable of being done by all, is of course absurd. THe reason having sex with a MM who has a family and bearing his child is so difficult is because it is wrong and not condoned by society. Some how accepting this all smacks of somehow making it o.k to me. It is not, and the pain it has caused me will never make it o.k.

I was watching a MOrey POvich show today with couples and infidelity discussed. THere were children there who were teenagers who would not accept their fathers infidelity.Who hated the father for what he did to mother. NOt all children of WS family accept OC.

I don't think the needs of OC to have a parent should not supersede the needs of the kids of BS who had a life and a family that never involved a child separate from other family. For me, it is just not fair, not right, not o.k. and doesn't feel good to me. I would rather divorce H than deal with this.ANd may do just that.

In a perfect world, one would be able to handle "visitation" and all would benefit. WE do not have visitation because my H, the father of the OC, chose not to have contact with HIS child from HIS Affair. I offered to adopt her, or arrange to get her, with me being the go between. The OW didn't want to deal with me and he did not want to "visit" with their child. So he has not seen his dau who is now 8 years old. Our children do not know they have a sister. One day they will. His expressed feelings were she would not benefit from seeing him 2 weeks in summer, 2 weekends a month, and then the difficult logistics of getting her from NC to Ky first, then TX later. So unless her mother has a man in her life, this little girl has no "father" figure. But, this is the choice her parents made not me. I would have adopted her, or the mother could have given her up for adoption with someone else. She chose to raise her dau with no active father and apparently no step-father.
These were decisions made before I came to this forum, but I personally advocate what ever works for those involved. HOwever as we have seen, the OW usually tries to use her child to break up the marriage. Visitation rarely, truly benefits anyone and is a painful reminder for the BS in the begining stages of putting a marriage back together.
Just my thoughts.

"Now, in the best possible worlds, the OC would have access to father.But this is a very weird arrangement for all. I don't think it is healthy for anyone to incorporate two families who had nothing to do with each other except that a man and woman betrayed a family, had a secret life they now want to be made whole together. Without consent of BS. It doesn't always work this way.Further, I think acting as if this is easy, or capable of being done by all, is of course absurd. THe reason having sex with a MM who has a family and bearing his child is so difficult is because it is wrong and not condoned by society. Some how accepting this all smacks of somehow making it o.k to me. It is not, and the pain it has caused me will never make it o.k.
"

Ouch,
you hit a sore spot with this comment.
This is also what we're facing. The xow and her family have this "we're all one big happy family' smile on their faces and this is why we continue to get the pushback from being included in her life without xow's involvement. It's like they expect us to be a part of their family for the sake of lil mama. No, I don't think so. Our interest is soley in the baby, not anything else they're doing or saying.
Marriage, while difficult at time, brings with it the benefit of families coming together. Not body-fluid swapping, which is the sum of what was transacted between my H and xow. WHen will htey get it?
My take on it is this, we will do what is possible to make lil mama feel validated. We draw the line at family gatherings, small talk etc. We have a very narrow focal point of what's going to benefit the baby and what benefits the xow and her familiy's sense of pride and dignity. I mean think about it? WHat better way to sweep your junk under the rug? It totally benefits her and her family if we play nice and comply and blend into their lives. But it looks a little something like consequence if her daughter ONLY has access to my H and son and me. They'd suggested i bring my son over to play....????
I think they mean well, but we've bitten off enough tough meat to chew on for right now. Visitation, while fun, is still hard enough. We're not about to blend into one big happy family to make xow and her mom and dad feel warm and fuzzy.

I have to agree with the majority of the posters in that I think that visitation is for some families and not for others.

For ours, it is not an option. First of all, OW is still hopelessly obsessed with my H. 5 years after their physical affair, she is still "in love" with him. She wants contact with HIM and could probably care less really if her daughter has a father, she wouldn't have slept with a married man if she really wanted a father for her child. I always have felt that the woman is the most responsible for deciding whether to be a mother, and nothing will change that decision. She CHOSE to have a child with no father.

Secondly, we have a family that we must nurture and care for. We have a 3 month old daughter and she is first and foremost in mine and DH's life. He is the best dad. OW would do everything she could to wreak havoc on us if she had the chance. It is our responsibility not to give her that chance.

Lastly, OC in our case is 5 years old, we didn't know about her, find out she was his etc until she was 2 years old. Hard for H to bond then. Also, at OC's age, if we just decided to TRY visitation and it didn't work, she would likely wonder 'Why didn't my daddy like me? What did I do wrong?', etc. As it is OW has likely brainwashed her to think like her, which will mean she hates ME and blames ME for her not being able to be with H. This isn't healthy for child at all. It would be different if she was to have the OC's best interest at heart, but she is more concerned in being obsessed with H.

I think that everyone must do what they must do to keep their marriage intact first. In our case, their is a wonderful marriage totally worth saving. This was way before our daughter, she has only strengthened our marriage and our committment to eachother.

It is very sad for OC. Even H comments now that he wonders how she is, but still doesn't see her as a daughter. He said he doesn't want contact, since he knows how OW is. I have never been against contact, but it wasn't my choice. I know it would have been difficult, but I always questioned H to make sure he was sure.

Happy_girl

married 7 1/2 years
OC born in 1997, PA happened during difficult time in marriage, I was withholding sex, she was offering, you can guess the rest...
Our beautiful daughter born July 2002

and what if the ws is the w who chooses to keep her oc? her bs h has to seperate the child from the a and om. our children have all come to accept grace as their sister. om will be paying cs (d.a. has contacted him). now what happens to their feelings when om steps in for visitation? he says he wants things now. something for his buck i quess. truth is there is nothing for him to have except every other weekend and summer visits. what do they think as they grow older and put the heart ache together with their sister? and what happens (God forbid) should something happen to fh? does om take custody of grace and our kids never or hardly ever see her again? this is such a cluster $@&% situation that i want to pull my hair out. yes i am lucky enough to still have hair at my stage in life.

grace does change the way we live our day to day life. i find myself impatient often going to the store and running erands with fh as we can't kust go. you have to get someone to watch grace or haul all the baby crap with you. then pack her in and un pack when your there. what a pain in the butt. i was so glad to be rid of that stuff. also how fair is it to our older c's when fh needs them to stay home and watch the peanut for her. they want to hang with their friends and they are babysitting. bummer. don't get me wrong i would never hurt that little peanut but life can be very complicated. rick