I happened to read your post on another forum located here on MB.

I admire your courage. I'm in somewhat, the same delima only difference is, we have no children,
we were not marriage as long as you and your wife my H and I live 900 miles from each other.

My H has several A this last one resulted with OC
I went through a lot of emotions and I still do from time to time.

My H is no longer with OW the A, died of natural cause. I had no contact with H during the whole time of the A. This is something H decided. H does this when ever he has A, H has no contact with me at all. I guess because I do a lot of LBING.

I Purchase the SAA, my H initiated contact with me back in july of 2002. I didn't have the book in my possession at the time. I did alot of LB no angry outburst. I did a lot of critizing,judgeing which is a LB.

I've since been reading the book SAA. I saw my flaws and I'm correcting them. My H and I live 900 mile from each other I'll marriage was so short lived we are getting to know each other again.

My problem is if I call H. and he doesn't return my call when I want him to. I go up in my head.
At first my H was initiating contact, then I started. The problem with that was I was doing all the calling.

I had to stop the calling H started initiating contact again. I found myself back in limbo again with me intiating contact. When my H doesn't return my calls I think the worse.

My H feels since we were separated, at the time when he had all his A it was Ok to do so.
H loves this OC with all his heart maybe I'm being imature, I feel he loves this child more than me.

I feel insecure when H talks about the OC. I feel hurt and go through all the feelings associated with pain. I don't beleive in my heart this child is H. Ow knew my H for only 3-4 wks when she came here to meet H. I beleive they meant on the internet or 900 phone call.

There stories don't add up how they meant. I know my H had a problem with meetimg women on the net or phoneline. This is one of the reasons why I don't beleive this OC is his. Another reason H lied about DNA Test I found out in my investigation a test wasn't done H sign the birth affidavit so no test was done.

My H beleive this OC is his child, I accept it but don't beleive. I asked H to show me proof when he comes in town, H said he's not going to do that I left the subject alone.

I love my H, very well want to work on my marriage.
I find myself bringing up the past, I know I have to stop doing that another thing is trust.

OW is now married to someone else after her and H. A ended. H doesn't know that I know ow is pregnant. OW goes back and forth with, this could be her H baby or my H baby.

My H doesn't know,that I know this. I have brought the conversation up. I asked H suppose OW come up Pregnant and say it's yours, H says she has to get a DNA Test. I have trust issue with this whole situation.

I asked H why he hadn't divorce me, H claim maybe he was hopeing for reconciliation. H tells me he loves me, and have a special love for me. H also say H loves OW for being the mother of his child.

Ouch that hurts, also I love my H. I want to work on our marriage. H tells me we have to get to know each other all over again, right now he has to get his self together.

I'm learning not to LB, not to go up in my head
when I don't hear from him we talk at least 4-5 times a wk.

Any suggestions all opinions are welcome

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PRAYER CHANGES THINGS
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MALC,

Well, there are a lot of reasons that you should consider quitting and moving on---but you don't want to do that, so...

1. Continue to work on the Lovebusters. They'll kill any chance you have for reconciliation.

2. Try to discuss a plan with your husband that will allow him to get himself "together", as well as allowing the two of you to get to know each other again. You might be best with a few weekends together, where you can be on your best behavior. If that's positive...

3. Make a plan for moving back in together. At this point, I think you'll want the involvement of a professional counselor (I always recommend the Harley's at 888-639-1639), if not sooner. You don't want to force this, but you need to have it in place as part of the recovery plan.

Does your husband know what the Policy of Joint Agreement is (and do you)? If he can agree to using this rule, along with absolute honesty---the two of you have a decent shot. You'll use these tools to discuss things like the OC and the OW, and make plans together to deal with this on a united front. But it's going to take some pretty dramatic changes from your past marriage---constant lovebusting on your part and serial affairs on his are a pretty big hurdle to overcome.

Hi K
Thanks for responding. I'm not reading to throw in the towel just yet, I know other think I should maybe because my marriage is short lived as some may say or no children I want to really see the effects of these principals.

I just find it so odd that it seems to me my marriage doesn't matter because of these factors. I notice people will tell me to move on. I read other post of people going through the same, only marriage is longer and with children they don't give them the same suggestion . Thats just my opinion.

I do notice things can be going along fine. I do a major LB I've see the patterns in the last several years. This last LB was my fault we were doing so well until H told me something I disagreed with. I told H I didn't want to talk to him ever again. Now he's upset with me. H said we came this far and I just wanted to stop communicating all together. H said that angered him. I listened.

I would like to talk to DR harley. I don't want to call him, just for him to tell me I need to move on, because I have no children and my marriage was short lived. I be very upset after spending $185 just to talk to him to hear that.

I hear a lot of good things about DR Harley I would like to talk to him, to get better insight but not to hear I need to divorce. I hope you understand. I have purchased SAA and found how I was doing LB big time, now I'm doing something different but it does make you appear like a doormat

I felt that way talking to H today. I didn't get angry even when H didn't want to continue the conversation. I just left it alone. when H wants to talk he'll call again. I was told I need to go into Plan B? Only just started plan A What do you suggest. Once again thank you. If you can read my other post I'm pissed... To Catnip thank you so much.

Dear MALC,

If you would like to try to talk to Dr. Harely without paying the fee, you might try getting on his radio show. Follow this link:
information on calling in to radio show

I think why you get the advice here that you do (about considering ending your marriage) is not that people don't like you, not that we devalue your marriage but for some of the following reasons:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your lack of children with this man could mean your complete freedom from him. People with children have to remain in some form of contact (even through a 3rd party). You could be completely free of this man who has treated you so badly.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H has had numerous affairs. He seems to be at the least, a sex addict and what used to be called a real cad.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There doesn't seem to be a time in your marriage when it was ever really good and strong</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H treats you badly and there doesn't seem to be a lot of good treatment to balance out the bad. Sometimes people tolerate bad treatment if there have been years of good treatment, if this bad treatment is different from what normally happens in the marriage, if the wayward spouse shows a great deal of remorse.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H seems to have no remorse. He doesn't think what he did is wrong so what hope is there of him ever "getting it" and understanding how hurtful his behavior has been? If he doesn't ever truly understand what chance is there that he is going to change that behavior?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None of this is really about you and what people here think about you. It is about what we think of your H. I am sorry that you feel that people here don't value your marriage. I hope that isn't the case. I know that the Harley's recommend divorce when there has been no children of the marriage and one partner has had an affair and a child with another.
I was in your situation. We had no children. I didn't feel my marriage had less value because we were infertile. I stayed in my marriage despite a very long-term affair because:</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt that up to that point I had truly enjoyed sharing my life with him</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he had helped me through some enormously difficult family and personal crises</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He had an enormous pride in who I was and what I had accomplised; he was my #1 fan</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We had 18 years together. I don't know how and why, but the length of the marriage did play into my decision to stay or leave--not because I felt old and unable to attract anyone else but because we were so intertwined. His family was my family. My family was his.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We were in the middle of adopting three children from Russia who were going to spend the rest of their lives in an orphanage and be put on the street at age 16 if we did not complete the adoption. There were five lives hanging in the balance--three of them completely innocent. Yup, at least in part I stayed for the kids.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't go back and pretend that I know what I would have done if we hadn't been in the middle of the adoption. I don't have a crystal ball but I think that I would have left. The pain was too great, too searing and it nearly killed me (literally, spent time in the hospital to prevent suicide). Leaving and starting a new life would have been easier.
There are other people on this board who do not have children of the marriage--Stacia and Catnip are two I can think of, but I would think that the marriage would have to be pretty extraordinarily worthwhile to want to try and save a marriage so badly damaged. Or maybe it is the BS strong aversion to divorce on religious grounds.

I truly hope for peace and happiness for you. I hope you find what is best for you. None of us knows that but you. However, be careful. We don't always act in our own best interest. We sometimes stay when we should go. You are the only one who can make that decision. If you chose to try and rebuild this marriage please get busy putting your Plan A in place. Please be certain that he is as dedicated to a repaired marriage (and future fidelity) as you are.

Peace,
MJ

<small>[ November 04, 2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

Hi MALC,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to talk to DR harley. I don't want to call him, just for him to tell me I need to move on, because I have no children and my marriage was short lived. I be very upset after spending $185 just to talk to him to hear that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would encourage you to call for an appointment---but you'll be talking with either Dr. Harley's son (Steve) or daughter (Jennifer Chalmers). These two won't tell you to pitch the marriage, they will help you with the implementation of Plan A and (if necessary) Plan B, at the appropriate time. I don't think that calling Bill Harley on his show will give you the amount of time and insight that your issues deserve (and I've called Bill a couple times). Steve or Jenn is the better (albeit more expensive) route.

As MaryJanes has outlined, you've still got several issues to deal with in regard to your husband. But getting into marriage counseling with the Harley's will address what YOUR marital 'liabilities' are, and you'll work on a plan to address those. It's very clear that you still want your marriage, and Steve or Jenn will help you put together a plan in place that will give you the best chance of success.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you choose to try and rebuild this marriage please get busy putting your Plan A in place. Please be certain that he is as dedicated to a repaired marriage (and future fidelity) as you are.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was a quote from MaryJanes. While it'd be terrific to have your husband on board for recovery, you don't need it. You need to execute your plan to save this marriage. Steve and Jenn are experts on helping you down this path---eventually, you will either end up successfully reconciling, or you'll decide yourself to pursue a separation (or divorce). They will work for you in the best interests of you and your marriage---I'd really encourage that you give them a try.

Thank You MJ & K

I appreciate the honesty here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H has had numerous affairs. He seems to be at the least, a sex addict and what used to be called a real cad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to make a comment my H never cheated while he was in the home, that's the truth we were separated at the time. People will tell me at least he left the home, to do what he had to do
instead of being there with me and taking me through the drama.

I was having mixed feelings about this because I'm being told since we were separated it wasn't like he was actually cheating on me, he left the marriage. My fault was allowing him to sleep with me knowing he wasn't ready to come home I should have let him go then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your lack of children with this man could mean your complete freedom from him. People with children have to remain in some form of contact (even through a 3rd party). You could be completely free of this man who has treated you so badly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So you are telling me because I can't have children even if I decided to marry someone else he has the right to freedom also if we are having problems because we have no children meaning my marriage is valued less is that what your saying? If that's what your saying I disagree. That's my point your marriage is valued less without children I caught some feelings about that. I do respect your honesty even if I disagree.

I know my H is having finance problems and other problems that has nothng to do with me. H tells me he needs to address those things first before he can see the light on anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H treats you badly and there doesn't seem to be a lot of good treatment to balance out the bad. Sometimes people tolerate bad treatment if there have been years of good treatment, if this bad treatment is different from what normally happens in the marriage, if the wayward spouse shows a great deal of remorse </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not responsible for the choices my H makes but I'm responsible to what lead to them. When my H left me I chase him, spyed on him, I did a lot of medling in his life when I should have just let him go. This treatment was brought on by my action not saying, I deserve them because I didn't, no one deserve the treatment I got. I should have left him alone I allowed it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H seems to have no remorse. He doesn't think what he did is wrong so what hope is there of him ever "getting it" and understanding how hurtful his behavior has been? If he doesn't ever truly understand what chance is there that he is going to change that behavior?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H goes back and forth with this. H tells me he did some awful things to me he owes me for the rest of my life. Depending on H mood swing, meaning being in the fog going back and forth, how remorseful he feels. I'm not going to just say he's not remorseful because we know not what truly in his heart.

I'm not taking up for H, after reading SAA I had to be honest with self. Now being honest with self is not saying, I deserve these treatment hell no I don't. I'm only taking responsibolty for my part, is anything wrong with that? Several EN weren't meant on either part. I handle myself different from my H, I choose not to take the same route H took.Thank you so much MJ I really appreciate your help. Please continue helping me OK .

To K
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If you choose to try and rebuild this marriage please get busy putting your Plan A in place. Please be certain that he is as dedicated to a repaired marriage (and future fidelity) as you are

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was a quote from MaryJanes. While it'd be terrific to have your husband on board for recovery, you don't need it. You need to execute your plan to save this marriage. Steve and Jenn are experts on helping you down this path---eventually, you will either end up successfully reconciling, or you'll decide yourself to pursue a separation (or divorce). They will work for you in the best interests of you and your marriage---I'd really encourage that you give them a try</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes I want to save my marriage. I was once told I didn't need H to make the effort I could change me
I will get on top of talking to the Harley's
I notice you make an effort to get people to talk to the Harleys why is that may I ask.

I've read SAA is taking responsibilty in my part I played in the downfall of

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I notice you make an effort to get people to talk to the Harleys why is that may I ask.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's that $50 referral fee that Steve sends me... (just kidding! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Seriously, I spent about a year counseling with Steve through my wife's affair. It was the single best decision I made in that time period (and one of the best I've ever made). He's extraordinarily effective in helping you learn and implement a plan, and he'll help you feel good about what you're doing and encourage you on the execution. I saw a couple other "in person" counselors during that time, and they couldn't compare. Steve is that good. I've also had some sessions with Jenn (my wife has done more with Jenn), and I found her to be great as well.

If you believe in the MB approach and your situation is "serious", then the best advice I can give is to take your problem to the professionals. I've spent years here trying to 'repay' my debt to the Harley's by helping people around here---but for really serious problems, it's much better to go to the source for advice.

Thanks K
I agree with going to the sorce to solve a problem. I have to cough up the finance to do so.

I talk to H today I asked him was he committed to reconcile H said he wasn't committing to anything
right now. He may feel different in a month or to, but as of right now no. He has to get his self together emotionally first.

I'm just going to stop communication right now.
I feel myself not caring anymore maybe it's a faze I don't know but my feelings are whatever because this does get old. I ask was there someone else? He said no, he's ok being with his self. He doesn't need the headache, he said women are all about money what you can do for them. I'm just drained.

Once again thank you.

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>