uhhhhh...what was the question here again??

I have learned to value and respect ALL opinions and sides, doesn't mean that I agree or am not taken back from some people's viewpoints. The bottom line is we're all trying to fix something thats broken or in sad need of repair...I doubt any of us are here for the fun of it. There are certain posters that I have learned ...well they're just gonna p*ss me off..therefore I don't go there.

Catnip...I admire your candor, I have always been one that is unable to express what it is I really feel. As my Dad would say " you're full of p*ss and vinegar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

on a side note ...I'm enjoying the demise of my XOW among her coworkers..seems all the games have caught up with her.

have a good week ...

I don't say much about my feelings for my OC because sometimes what I say can be miscontrued.

Tomorrow is my OC's third birthday. She is two weeks older than my and Mr."T"'s first child together, "Mini-me".

I do believe that children are gifts from God...the bible even says it. OC may be a gift to my ex-ow, but oc is not a gift to me. In fact, at times I wish I had the return receipt so I can give the whole situation back to God.

But she's OW's gift and her step-father's gift. She's a gift to her family and her mother's friends who love her.

In my situation, OC was conceived in flat out five to fifteen minutes of sex. No feelings on my H's part. I know this because he was honest about he and ex-ow's relationship before we were married. she was sex...plain and simple. We have worked on this issue in counseling and I still have problems with my H for what he did and for using a woman for a piece of [censored]. Sadly, OC means nothing to my H. Sadly, she means nothing to me. I don't wish her harm, I wish her well and I pray for her and I write in her journal for her for "someday" so that she will understand the circumstances of her conception and the truth behind why we are not involved in her life.

Sadly, I have no rights or say in this child's life...only my H and her Mother do. Sadly the courts decide to alter my life and my children's lives (and there were children before OC and OW knew it) and I have no say in it. What saved our [censored] was we filed first in court..."shows the court our interest"...

I feel horrible for OC...she was conceived in lust on my H's part and possibly unrequitted love on her mother's part. I'm glad OW married and moved on and praying that OC's step-father will adopt...she deserves to belong to BOTH of them.

Mr."T" had no say on his 50% of HIS genetic child. He wanted adoption. He does not believe in abortion. He learned a costly and valuable lesson in stepping outside of his marriage. Actions have consequences and he told our MC in idividual counseling that he cannot bear to see the pain he put me through. He said that was worse than contributing to the conception of the OC.

When he signed sole care and custody over to ex-ow, she looked at him incredulous (she tried to force him to be "daddy"...there is truth to the saying, "anyone can be a father, but it takes a special person to be a daddy") she said to him, "so I'm taking care of this kid myself."
Mr."T" replied in the presence of his atty. "Yes...you are...I've told you over and over that I wanted adoption for the child. This child is punishment to me for stepping out of my marriage." She looked sad, signed the papers and left.

There are no winners in this...everybody is a loser. I cringe because my children had to go without electricity and a phone for a few days because of a huge CS obligation which wasn't fair to begin with. Even with what we settled out of court for, it's still waaaay too much. We even get short on food. If I weren't deaf, and I shoot myself for not finishing college, I would no doubt be out there working my [censored] off to take care of my own. I am not deaf enough for disability, but deaf enough for employers to discriminate and you can never prove it...so I leave that for another thread...(and this isn't a poor me post either!)

I don't hate OC. I hate the circumstances in which she was brought into this world. I was mad at God for 6 months and refused to talk to Him for allowing this in my life. Not the child, the situation. I am still angry with my husband for pissing away 17 years of trust and intimacy for three quickies done while on a side job. Even the circumstances of OC's conception really reeks. Who wants to be proud that you were conceived in a car lot because your father was horny and your mother had no self-respect that she chose to screw your bio-dad in a car lot?

According to Dr. Harly, my "H"'s three night stand was kind of like a black-book affair. They are the type like business men who travel and have just sex with people because they aren't home to have it with their wives. There is no emotional attachment, just sex and the need to have it. We are working in counseling for Mr."T" to be able to recognize that need and call me when it arrives. He cannot be trusted by me anymore in the sex department, although the MC is convinced that he learned his lesson.

Also, in this particular type of affair, it has nothing to do with me or the condition of our marriage. Our marriage was not in trouble. I was completely blindsided by this. The only time I thought our marriage was in trouble is when he started emotionally distancing himself because he thought he knew I would leave his butt for what he did to me. It was guilt over the whole thing.

I blame Mr."T" ultimately because he knew he was married and he decided that a quickie for the moment was the way to go. He was selfish. I blame OW for no having enough self-respect that she took whatever crumbs from Mr."T" and didn't care enough about herself to say she wasn't going to take that crap and find someone who would love her and treat her like a queen. She told my BIL that she always had unprotected sex with Mr."T" in the hopes that she could have his child and ultimately him. Well...I can't help but wonder if she was secretly trying to punish Mr."T" for marrying me instead of her.

She is, was and will always be a nothing to him. and that's the saddest thing of all. I often wonder why I'm with a jerk like that. But I know "THE" Mr. "T" and I don't expect y'all to understand. Thank God he isn't a serial cheater.

I'm so sorry to be posting this long post, but tomorrow is another trigger day for me. There is a host of things I want to say about all this but words elude me at this moment.

Not all affairs are alike. Not all OW's are alike. Not all oc's are alike. My oc is a gift from God to our ex-ow and rightfully so as my children are a gift to me. My Ex-ow told me that "me and my children meant shyte to her"...that shows she really doesn't value my marriage, and my children. Why should I value hers? But I don't play that way. I hurt for OC. I cannot save her and I don't try. I leave that to God. I hope time can reconcile my mixed feelings at time.

This is just my feelings. I don't talk about much, but am so glad I have this forum to be able to think it out. I don't ask for anyone to agree with me. I'm working out my feelings. I know what i feel for my kids. I know what I feel for baby bean who was a legitimate surprise for us. But I am in a long term loving relationship with my spouse when baby bean surprised us. I was not having a one night stand with my husband and just "happened" to have gotten pregnant.

I'm not making sense...I'll quit now...I suppose had Mr."T" had a 7 or more year relationship and had feelings with OC I would have had to make some difficult decisions. But my situation is different as are the many lives and situations played out on this board.

Like I said before, God help us all and I mean ALL of us. I am re-reading David Stoop's book, "forgiving the unforgiveable" I feel I need to counterbalance the resentment I'm feeling.

I dont' want to go on feeling rotten. I want peace inside myself. I also want revenge. I leave that to God. It isn't easy my friends, but I will prevail as all of us will, right?

Hugs and prayers to y'all....
Twiisty

Hello,
How is this thread helping anyone to recover their marriage?

Dawn

You'd be surprised how this thread could be helping some people, Dawn. Twiisty posted and exccellent piece just now sharing with us her point of view, her feelings and her hopes and dreams.

Dawn, there are often hard issues tht need to be discussed. No one expects everyone to gain the same insight from the same conversation. A message that eludes one can be tantamount to recovery for another...even if it makes some uncomfortable. Personally, I found Twiisty's last post inspiring and wonderful.

Catnip =^^=

Malc: What the devil meant for evil, God will turn it around and use it for good. We dont' have to understand; all we have to do is accept. The Bible clearly tells us that HIS ways are not our ways and HIS thoughts are not our thoughts so we have to be careful. This isn't a justification for anything but realizing you can repent today and your sins are forgiven and that's what God wants. The sinner can repent and you are left with your bitterness which will also not make it into the kingdom; the Bible says, Put all wrath and bitterness away, etc, etc. True, HE hates the sin but HE will rise ANYONE above their circumstances if they trust and believe in HIM.. Now that doesn't mean that you won't pay for your actions because you will but HE shows mercy to the truly repentful. Don't despise the child because despite what you are saying, there's an underlying implication that you do feel a child is a constant reminder that he cheated. Well, if you say you trust GOD, deal with it! GOD doesn't make mistakes and HIS purpose is not always revealed to us! As a ps, 2parent families do not always mean the children will be wonderful. I tell this to people all the time, these children from the respectable, 2-parent, well to do, families are drinking, drugging,sexing just as much as any other kids! The issue is not how many people are in the house but the character of the people in that house that will HELP DETERMINE where a child might go in life! I'm a firm believer that you can turn lemons into lemonade! And when we're really Christians, that's what we're about! Empower somebody, encourage somebody, enlighten somebody, let somebody know hope is not dead and they don't have to accept anything life throws their way! I grew up in the Cleaver household, so to speak, and I've had my problems; life wasn't easier, I just knew how to deal with it better!
Twiisty: I apologize in advance and say as respectfully as I know how, I think nothing of any deadbeat parent, regardless of the situation! I cannot for the life of me see how anybody can turn their back on their own child. I think your husband is going to suffer one day, I think he's going to know what it feels to be alone and dejected and the thought that there is another person out in the world with your genes, bringing forth your grandchildren one day and you can so haplessly say that they are some kind of punishment is just baloney! Everything bad that happens to us is NOT OF THE DEVIL! Sometimes we make our own hardships! And we should be woman or man enough to say, I did this thing and I'm going to deal with it and yes its hard, its hurtful but I did it and I'm a stand-up kind of man or woman who doesn't walk away from my mistakes simply because its easier!

Luscious wrote and I quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Twiisty: I apologize in advance and say as respectfully as I know how, I think nothing of any deadbeat parent, regardless of the situation! I cannot for the life of me see how anybody can turn their back on their own child. I think your husband is going to suffer one day, I think he's going to know what it feels to be alone and dejected and the thought that there is another person out in the world with your genes, bringing forth your grandchildren one day and you can so haplessly say that they are some kind of punishment is just baloney! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I must respectfully disagree with you. My husband is not a deadbeat parent. He pays his child support and on time. Even to the detriment of our family at home. I know because I sign the checks.

He considers himself a sperm donor...nothing more, nothing less and with the many infertile couples out there getting their sperm from sperm banks, and single women too, raising children on their own with the help of sperm banks, I don't see many sperm donors pining away for their genetic contributions out there. The one difference we have is that WE PAY FOR THE PRIVELEDGE OF OUR SPERM DONATION. and I'm not shouting...just bolding it for emphasis.

I respect your right to your views but you don't know me and my situation, but as I've quoted this quote my high school teacher always said, "I may not agree to what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." that is your opinion and your beliefs...mine are different and I appreciate your honesty and candor and the fact that you did try to say it as respectfully as you know how. I don't have to defend my H or myself, but my H is not a deadbeat dad...my ex-husband is...he's been trying to get out of paying his financial obligation for 8 years now. Now I can give you more examples of deadbeat dads, but this isn't what my posts were about. I just stated my side of things....

Again, thank you for sharing and I wish you peace.

Twiisty

Luscious also wrote and I quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And we should be woman or man enough to say, I did this thing and I'm going to deal with it and yes its hard, its hurtful but I did it and I'm a stand-up kind of man or woman who doesn't walk away from my mistakes simply because its easier! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely...and my husband did stand up and dealt with it and pays his financial obligation. He didn't walk away. He pays and dearly...in more ways than one. He chose his first family, the one he wishes he never strayed from in the first place. But I don't owe you any explanations. I know what the deal is with us. Have a great day and I hope the storms didn't affect you in the area you live in...we have about 33 dead in the South here due to the tornados last night...

Peace,
Twiisty

Twisty, I thank you for much of what you said.

I have another thought-- why do many think that contact with the OC by the bio father is always going to be so wonderful and helpful? What if the children of the bio dad rejects that child because of the hurt the affair and the birth of the OC caused it?What if some in the family resent the payment of CS to this child? What if anger on the part of some of the family of the WS cause resentment toward OC or the least the OW/OM? What if the OW/OM teaches the OC to resent the spouse of the WS because he/ she is less than accepting of OC or somehow interfering with the OP's contact with WS? HOw is that going to help the OC?

It is true the OC is not responsible for all of this-- but his/her parents are, and she/he will reap the effects of all this. Much of all this pain, even if unfair to OC, could have been avoided if the child had been put up for adoption.

In my home, there were many years that I was not ready to have children.Wasn't sure I wanted any. Because of that, I took the necessary precautions to prevent pregnancy, because my H and I decided together we both had to be ready to have a child, or not have one at all. Had a child come despite our precautions, I would seriously have considered abortion.

But with affairs, the couple involved don't seem to have equal footing on deciding what to do should pregnancy occur. I doubt seriously that many of the affairs that happen consider pregnancy occurring-- in most cases, but not all, it is an accident. In most relationships that involve truly committed and caring partners, the decision about what to do about unplanned pregnancies is a mutual one.

But I don't see that in many of these scenarios. I see the pregnant woman deciding to have the child and keep the child because she wants the child. For many reasons. The biofather often wishes abortion would happen, or if not, adoption.Let's face it--for the cases of a single OW having a child, adoption would be far better for the child, because he/she wouldn't have to wonder or deal with the situation of its conception or birth, or have a better econimic situation. But the women in these situations control all the cards.

I don't see how this is always helpful for the child. I was watching one of those divorce court shows, with a wife who had had affairs and children from them. She couldn't afford these children. The judge said-- you shouldn't have kids if you cannot afford them, regardless of the situation.

Now, isn't this true of some of these cases as well? Is this fair to all involved, when adoption could have been better for the child in so many of these cases?

Before I leave for a short while, wanted to add to this conversation. I have supported Catnip's views off and on, I believe she has the right express herself, and a lot of her thoughts are right on. She has helped a lot of people here. If you don't know her story, you read it before you your tails in a knot about what she says. Her H and the OW have put her throught a lot

As far as deadbeat Dads, my H has not contact with OC, but pays child support every month. He chose not to see his child by the OW, not me, HIS CHOICE without any influence from me. She is 9 now and may want to meet him, when/if she initiates it we will see. He told me the child was her mother's not his, he just made a HUGE mistake getting involved with the OW.He felt that being involved with her would short change our 5 Children and our marriage then and he didn't want to jeopardise out marriage anymore than he had.
He felt the OW got Pg on purpose to make him go with her, she gambled and lost and her child pays the price of having a father, but not a daddy.
There are days even after 9 years I, note I feel bad for the child, but I didn't create her. I did offer to adopt her, but her mother, the OW, would not agree. So she is raising her child her way and those are the choices SHE made.

The man has choices and the OW has choices. He did not have a choice concerning the pregnancy, but she chose to have the child and keep it.
I talked to once, after I learned of the OC, and asked what she wanted from him for child. She told me she wanted what my children had, a loving involved father. I told her that would never happen because of 1. the logistics and 2. he did not want to be involved with her child. involvement with her child meant involvement with her which he did not want.

So, she made her bed, her house of cards and she lives in it. We all make choices. ONe can say he knew a pregnancy was possible, but men believe when the woman says she is "on the pill" and think things are safe. They don't seem to understand that the pill can fail. But, doesn't the woman have the responsibility to say, wait use a condom because tonight the pill may not work because I am on antibiotics? Or, was she really on the pill? Just wondering.

Well have to go. Try and keep it positive and productive. Catnip has good things to share, but she sure uses those claws when she feels attacked. Me, I just fold up my tent and go away for a while.

Have a wonderful day all
TG

In an ideal world......

Everyone would just listen to me and do as I say...'cause I'm ALWAYS right!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Texas Girl!

If you fold up your tent and leave, there will be a hole in the circle around the camp fire. I didn't know you leave occaasionally because I have said something that has irked you...sheesh, I am sorry. One thing I really hate to do is scare away a Betrayed!!!

Catnip =^^=

Twiisty

Your words are eloguent and concise and you need no help from anyone...I couldn't have said it better.

Catnip =^^+

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think the orginal poster of the subject of God's position on OC meant to offend any mother of an OC. I think the point they were trying to make is that the act in which the child was concieved was not planned nor blessed by God himself. The ACT was simply a sin. Not the child itself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Zebrababy. Although I am not the original poster, it's exactly what was meant.
We can argue this over and over again with the same result.
Ow not being able to distinguish the difference between the act and the child.
Act= sin.
Child= Blessings from God.

Given a free will, humans do make mistakes. One of the biggest is a man or woman, who is married, thinking for one minute God sanctions the way their oc came to be. No one here said oc's weren't angels to God. I believe it was said they'd be blessed. Some people only read what they want and then condem the words they dislike.

Twiisty, my H did and said many of the things Mr.T said and did after the fact of oc.
My H also made his own decision after a few months and many lawyer appointments. Ow fought to keep H in her life, not oc's life, as she denied through her lawyer any visits at our home, even after we had one!
After a few months we decided our life was crumbling by Ow's constant upheavals and plain nasty letters and phone calls.

We acquiesced. Our lives began to heal w/o the turmoil.

Two years later he has no regrets. H financially supports oc. Ow hasn't moved on and still does things to make her presence known. Little by little it no longer aggrivates us. We finally have come to a level of peace and acceptance.

MALC, thankyou. Your grandchildren said some wise words. God doesn't bring pain to HIS followers.

Nor bitterness. Nor resentment.
He simply at some point grants us peace.
Like the Serenity Prayer" changing things we can, accepting things we can not change and the wisdom to know the difference.

love
Debi

No!!Catnip, you have never caused me to leave. It is the others who come to wreak havoc. I lurk for a while, regroup and make a statement.
I know that you like I have been thru the "mill". Yours was worse than mine. However, at the time, I didn't know how bad it could be. I read the others' stories and wish I could hold them like I do my children when they are sad and make the demons go away, but we all know we can't do that, even or our children.
I have never been "run off" by you Catnip. I meant that unlike you who will turn around and show your claws when attacked (and we all have seen that happen) I will walk away. But you have never threatened me. I always enjoy your posts. I find them something to learn from, or thought provoking at the very learst
That's why I come here, because I know this place I let go my frustration concerning the OW/OC situation and my H's stupidity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
If men were only as smart as they thought they were......
Tg

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Texasgirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twiisty:
<strong>)
She is, was and will always be a nothing to him. and that's the saddest thing of all. I often wonder why I'm with a jerk like that. But I know "THE" Mr. "T" and I don't expect y'all to understand. Thank God he isn't a serial cheater.

Twiisty</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is something we who have been betreyed have asked ourselves at one point or another. But I find that this is for me the beauty of MB...people do understand and here I do not have to justify my choice.

Thank you Twiisty...your post helped me this afternoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>No!!Catnip, you have never caused me to leave.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHEEEWWW! What a relief. Thanks, TG.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
[QB]Cat's-meow-nip ... I wuv ya widdle puddy tat .... I do I do ..... but sometimes you scratch, and hisssss, and bite!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But, that'a what makes you a kitty .... and I love little kitties. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Puuurrrrr, Puuuurrrr, Puuuurrrr......

What's up with the Lurk Mode? Dotcha know there are legions here starving and thirsting for your wisdom?

You have been missed.

Catnip =^^=

PS Where have the Tiggers been? Tigger4jd and JTigger?

Ok, I think I&#8217;m up to speed on this, but I really don&#8217;t get it. The one thing that continues to jump out at me is the undertone that the BS/WS should buck-up and &#8220;do right&#8221; by the innocent child. In an ideal world, that would be absolutely wonderful. However, the world is not perfect and neither are the people who live in it. We all have limits to our endurance; we all have our &#8220;breaking point&#8221;. If I went through my pregnancy knowing that MM and BS wanted nothing to do with my child, it would stand to reason that those feelings would continue AFTER my child was born. To me, it&#8217;s not about how it should be, or how I want it to be; it&#8217;s not about shaming someone else into doing what I think is right. To me, it&#8217;s about knowing what the reality is and moving forward. I have control over ME and no one else. I do not have the right to tell someone else how they should feel or how they should cope with their pain. I don&#8217;t understand why a person would have expectations of someone that they know will not fulfill them. It&#8217;s like setting yourself up for failure. Continuous failure breeds bitterness and dejection. I just can&#8217;t see doing that to myself or my baby.

I do agree that our words can be very hurtful. Sometimes they are meant to hurt. Oftentimes it&#8217;s the only weapon we have. We wield them as a way to invoke anger instead of despair. The drawback to using such hurtful words is that they tend to hit beyond the mark, causing collateral damage. I read Tina&#8217;s thread and, personally, was not offended by Catnip&#8217;s words. I understand where they came from. Tina&#8217;s situation was one that ignited outrage. Had it been me, and a friend of mine was caught in a painful situation, I probably would have swore up a storm and called the offending person every foul name I could think of. I can think of a few colorful expletives that would have shot out without restraint. As for the children, it&#8217;s just my opinion, but I think that some of you get so caught up in what is said that you miss the real cause/direction of the anger. When it comes to the OC, I don&#8217;t believe the children themselves are the target; I think it&#8217;s what they represent. I know I&#8217;ve said this before, but it bears saying again. These OC, mine included, are the living, breathing incarnation of something that caused such overwhelming, debilitating pain. They themselves had no hand in the affair, but they were the end result. As pure and innocent as they may be, HOW they came to be is never forgotten and will always cause some measure of pain as a result. They say that man&#8217;s immortality is attained through his children. Well, there ya go. The betrayal/affair has been immortalized by the birth of the child. For me, my child&#8217;s birth is something I treasure. For the BS, it is a black mark on her marriage that cannot be erased; the climax to a bad dream. Granted, we have both made the best of a bad situation, and actually get along very well, but no matter, how cordial, respectful and kind we are to each other, my child and I will always represent a part of her life that was turned upside down by a very selfish act (the affair). The pain of that memory will diminish with time, but you have to allow time to do its job.

Your words bring me to tears. Not something that is easily done.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Ohbratti, for your graciousness to recognize that words in anger spoken here are not meant for you or anyone else that comes here, personally or generally, and only pertain to our own particular situation or commiserating with a sister in need. Thank God for women like you who refuse to take things personally and see the big picture without petty self righteousness and needless, chronic defensiveness. What an incredible breath of fresh air not to have to explain or defend our position in return. What an incredible breath of fresh air to be granted the freedom of expression without censure and penalty. What an incredible breath of fresh air to have someone who's been on the other side to completely and totally understand the Betrayed without rancor.

This acknowledgement isn't that you agree with me, stick up for me or my right to speak as I do or for anyone else in particular, but that you 'get it' and have always got it and as a result are one of us and belong here. You have successfully explained in detail what we have been unable to convey all along. Common sense reigns supreme. No wonder I love and respect you.

Bravo

Catnip =^^=

Bravo Twiisty

Bravo Obratti1

Bravo Gem

Hey Gem, thanks for posting it in black and white

act = sin
child = blessing from God

Also, CM --- did you read in my post where I said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that God allows these children to be born for a reason. Whether that be to wake a WS or OP up and find their way back to right, or be an inspiration to someone or some concept in the distant future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we both agree completely that All children are blessings. Your child is your blessing.

It is NOT however a blessing to your MM's wife.

Can you agree with me there?

I'm curious CM, how do you feel about the example of act=sin child=blessing? Do you agree that regardless of how much love was shared between you and MM, that the act of infidelity and coveting another's spouse was in fact a sin?

Just picking your brain ... not picking a fight.

Z. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />