Obratti, I second catnip's words . You speak so eloquently of what I often feel.

I feel as if I am being criticized for not welcoming a child whose existence pains my very soul. Sure, the child is innocent, and no doubt a joy to the mother. But, not to me. The existence of such a child represents horror to me, incredible selfishness on my H and OW's part, destruction, and a mountain of pain.

I know you did not know at first your MM was married, and I commend you for taking such a high road with his lies. In my case, my H never hid that from OW- she knew from start he was married and had no intention of leaving me. It didn't matter to her-she wanted him, and didn't care who she hurt.

I wonder why BS get so much wrath from some OP-- as you say, why insist we take the "high road" and move on with this child involved in our life--it hurts so much, why must moving on mean including OC? Why can't the OW see that as well, that perhaps moving on for OW and WS is moving on apart, with no intermingling of families and so forth. Why cannot that be a sane decision for some, just as incorporating an OC into some families works for others?

We all do what we can. None of us is the same. I agree with you. We choose the paths that work best for who is involved, but not for all. THat is the sad tale of an affair with a child conceived. If it was so wonderful to do, with no pain or destruction, everyone would be doing it. It isn't wonderful, and that is why it is wrong.

Hi everyone

First I need to say like I thought, this would go over some heads. like the wind in the night.
I was the poster who initated this conversation
To Gem & ZE

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think the orginal poster of the subject of God's position on OC meant to offend any mother of an OC. I think the point they were trying to make is that the act in which the child was concieved was not planned nor blessed by God himself. The ACT was simply a sin. Not the child itself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

People have a tendecy to read into something that benefits them and only them.Keep up the good work we need people on this board like you GEMINI,ZEB
OBRATTI,UNHAPPYWIFE, TWIISTY CATNIP .

To OBRATTI

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the children, it&#8217;s just my opinion, but I think that some of you get so caught up in what is said that you miss the real cause/direction of the anger. When it comes to the OC, I don&#8217;t believe the children themselves are the target; I think it&#8217;s what they represent. I know I&#8217;ve said this before, but it bears saying again. These OC, mine included, are the living, breathing incarnation of something that caused such overwhelming, debilitating pain. They themselves had no hand in the affair, but they were the end result. As pure and innocent as they may be, HOW they came to be is never forgotten and will always cause some measure of pain as a result. They say that man&#8217;s immortality is attained through his children. Well, there ya go. The betrayal/affair has been immortalized by the birth of the child. For me, my child&#8217;s birth is something I treasure. For the BS, it is a black mark on her marriage that cannot be erased; the climax to a bad dream. Granted, we have both made the best of a bad situation, and actually get along very well, but no matter, how cordial, respectful and kind we are to each other, my child and I will always represent a part of her life that was turned upside down by a very selfish act (the affair). The pain of that memory will diminish with time, but you have to allow time to do its job.
As for the children, it&#8217;s just my opinion, but I think that some of you get so caught up in what is said that you miss the real cause/direction of the anger. When it comes to the OC, I don&#8217;t believe the children themselves are the target; I think it&#8217;s what they represent. I know I&#8217;ve said this before, but it bears saying again. These OC, mine included, are the living, breathing incarnation of something that caused such overwhelming, debilitating pain. They themselves had no hand in the affair, but they were the end result. As pure and innocent as they may be, HOW they came to be is never forgotten and will always cause some measure of pain as a result. They say that man&#8217;s immortality is attained through his children. Well, there ya go. The betrayal/affair has been immortalized by the birth of the child. For me, my child&#8217;s birth is something I treasure. For the BS, it is a black mark on her marriage that cannot be erased; the climax to a bad dream. Granted, we have both made the best of a bad situation, and actually get along very well, but no matter, how cordial, respectful and kind we are to each other, my child and I will always represent a part of her life that was turned upside down by a very selfish act (the affair). The pain of that memory will diminish with time, but you have to allow time to do its job </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

These words was so well spoken. You really summed it up for us BS here. I pray the rest here will be touched by these words and really look at this and eternalized these words. Everything is a process even forgiviness.

TO UnHappy wife
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all do what we can. None of us is the same. I agree with you. We choose the paths that work best for who is involved, but not for all. THat is the sad tale of an affair with a child conceived. If it was so wonderful to do, with no pain or destruction, everyone would be doing it. It isn't wonderful, and that is why it is wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I couldn't have said it better, and in choosing a path people need to ask a very important question
is what I'm doing will benefit me or will this benefit us all.

TO MO5
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it odd that there are so many perfect people with out sin on this board. Must be hard to be so Godly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

There is nothing hard about tapping into our spiritual Godly self. People make it hard for themselves, This is not about being perfect this is about doing whats right without the intent to harm another there is nothing hard about that. When we become so self absorb in our own selfishness and not considering other people thats what makes it hard. (WINNERS DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO) (LOSERS DO WHAT THEY WANT) EVEN IF IT'S CRUSHING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

For those who insist on having it there way and putting words in my mouth here it is again read it until you enternalize it. Look at the spirit of it which the act occured THE ACT ITSELF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
People tend to believe when to people come together and have sex this is a spirit of love especially when a child is conceived.
It depends on the spirit of the act it self either it's out of deception or it's out of love.

If it's an adultery act the spirit is out of deception. If it a loving act were no one is being deceptive or hurt is out of love. I know this will go over some heads but I don't expect everyone to grasp this.

So in other words, if you are having an A with married people the act itself is very deceptive act, so this will bring about the sprit of deception, everything we do has a spirit behind it one good one bad.

One is of God, one is of the devil, so if you are being deceptive you pass this deceptive spirit on to your child while it's being conceived in your womb.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

If you don't get it this time, keep reading until you get right like my teacher use to tell me.

Forgiveness is a beautiful thing and there is a process one must go through to get to that point.

Please allow people the opportunity to go through there process good bad or indifferences.

Allow the process to take place after all when you love someone, and trust them and they BETRAY you.

You find it in your power one day to forgive and you will get to the point.

When there is a child concieved from that BETRAYAL,you are constantly remined of the BETRAYAL.

No matter how hard you forgive, this will be an ever constant reminder. THIS will change your life FOREVER.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>Somehow we got off Tina and onto my bad manners on her thread.

If anyone else has any issues about my choice of words or position, please submit your complaints here.

I appreciate your input.

Catnip =^^=</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey you! Causing quite a stir on the boards now, are ya?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Well, I wouldn't say I have issues with your position, just maybe your choice of one word that triggers hurt feelings. I try not to take it personal because I understand your position. I do. It's hard not to take it personal because I have a grown up OC that I still wish I could protect and keep underneath my wings instead of giving him his own wings. Intellectually, I know you weren't talking about me, but I do have that guilt and projection thing going on as MALC described... Every stinking problem in OC's life I feel is my fault and it has been so difficult for me to let OC truly grow up. I keep trying to take care and protect my OC from the world who will ultimately perceive OC as a [censored] if/when they know the truth. Will they say it to OCs face? Doubt it. Will they think it? No doubt.

We all must admit, certain words trigger emotions and hurt feelings in all of us who read and post on MB, and maybe they trigger our emotions because there is truth to the statements? The one label that truly cannot be denied is the illegitimate ([censored]) OC label... The child born out of wedlock. Sadly, that is the one label that doesn't really describe a behavior but a condition... a name that is meant to be nothing but derrogatory.

I'm rambling, but just maybe try to imagine if one of our dear children grows up and ends up making the awful choice of infidelity--and in turn parents an illegitimate child. Would we be so quick to call our grandchild "[censored]?" Even if it is true? To me, the word [censored] sounds as bad as [censored] and is meant to cut just as deep. And it does... In context, out of context, in the dictionary, out loud, on paper, regardless...

But it's like KS said in one of her posts and I just loved it, she said, it's not what we're called but what we answer to, something like that... I pray that OCs never feel an urge to answer to that label. I pray that all the OCs out there would grow up and answer to the adoption of the Heavenly Father at some point in their sad, confused lives. I pray that although they are not a gift to the BS, that they would be a gift to the world by living productive, meaningful lives. I also pray that they would grow spiritually strong enough to break the curse of infidelity upon their lives and create a legacy that they can be proud of for future generations.

I also have to say that the OC is not necessarily what changes the marriage forever, it's the infidelity--with or without an OC. Children grow up and leave. CS doesn't last forever, CS does eventually come to an end. However, scattered all over MB are stories of many, many marriages (without OCs) that are forever scarred by the betrayal and the lies and affairs.

It seems to me that more marriages with OCs recover rather than those without OCs--strange fact, but true! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

OC adds another element to the recovery process--contact, or no contact--but even on the Recovery Board marriages are still struggling with triggers, overcoming resentment, how to restore romance, how to handle encounters with OPs, etc...

So all I'm trying to say is that if you erased OC from the picture, infidelity is NOT an easy thing to recover from. You would still have to have determination, tenacity, drive and focus on your recovery plan. You would still have to strive to walk in forgiveness every day. You would still need to do the work to eliminate the behaviors and attitudes that created the environment for an affair to begin with. You would still have to make a concentrated effort to fill your spouse's top emotional needs and eliminate love busters. You would still have to start taking your spouse's feelings into consideration with every decision... and on and on...

You would still have to decide whether you will recover from infidelity--with or without an OC.

I read your point of veiw, intresting, but not sure the point your trying to make, I made a mistake OM made a mistake, I am a ws, I have been a bs, we all make mistakes.
I asked my god to forgive me, I am at peace with my self. Cant change life and mistakes we have made just move forward. I dont think or believe my child is destined to be doomed because he or she was conceived with a married man, nor does he believe that because he was with a married woman.

Yes I believe that oc can be a trigger and are at times for some people, But that cant be changed, so are we supposed to sit around and cry and wallow in self pitty ? Or move on in our lives and make the best of it. Provide a loving stable home for our children . I am not going to have to teach my daughter any thing differnt than I teach the other children. I cant speak for your ow, or any one else just my life and my situation.
I made a mistake, he made a mistake and we have learned and are learning how to make the best of it.
I didnt deceive him to get pregnant, He knew and wanted me to get pregnant. How ever I was a fool to believe I couldnt get pregnant, because he assured me he could not have children because he had a vasectomy and he was almost 25 years older.

I also know if I had not fallen for him I would not have had this baby. But I ant change that and I dont see a reason to beat my self up over it.

He and I have a goal now. To raise our daughter together as best we can and make sure she is well loved.
By the way I dont mind being called names and such, but I dont see why children should be talked about in this manner, no point.
I hope one day you find peace as well.
god bless.

You guys just go ahead and whine to each other, I am back to life again

Mo5 wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You guys just go ahead and whine to each other, I am back to life again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree about the majority of people "whining" to each other. I usually don't take issue with you on things Mo5, but please don't belittle other people's pain. You created the OC, you couldn't possibly understand nor do we expect you to, just as we didn't create an OC and we couldn't understand where you are coming from.

I have seen that you take everything personally when it comes to how others feel about THEIR oc...not yours. You don't have an OC from your Husband, you created yours. That's fine. I'm really glad you have a situation, although at times you feel that it's a pain (and I do so apprecitate your sharing that about MM and his BS) I applaud you for doing what you are doing that is best for your family. LIke you always state as I do, it's your situation, it's what you have to do.

I, for one, have moved on with my life. I do have my trigger days as I'm sure you do. I know you know what it is like to be a betrayed also. I hate labels, but we have them. It's like what KS and BTDT said, it's not what you are called it's what you respond to.

Just because some of the betrayed are still at a place in their life that they are "whining" as you so eloquently put it, doesn't mean that they are not going on with their lives. We all heal at different rates...some of our H's affairs lasted a long time. Some of ours were just a one night stand, some of ours were quickies here and there.

I always appreciate what you post, I agreed with some, and disagreed with other things that you posted, but this is what this great board is all about. I love children.(Obviously I do otherwise I wouldn't be in the position to be Mother of five number 2!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> !!!)

I have come to the conclusion about all of us on this board.....

1. We will never completely understand where the other side is coming from, but we try.

2. We are all at different levels of recovery, feelings, hurt and process it in different ways.

3. If we don't like a particular poster, or posters, then we can skip to the next post or skip the thread altogether...some of us do that already.

4. Yes, we are here to heal our marriages. I happen to read the other boards also. I see just as much whining there as I do here and about more trivial things then Child support and contact or no contact when it comes to an OC.

I also see on the other boards in this forum the bitterness towards an OP. I also see the WS's in other boards defending their actions. I read some of those posts over there and think to myself, "geeze...get a grip...try having an OC for size..." and you know what? I just belittled their real, legitimate pain....and I have to catch myself and I try to empathize with them and see if I felt that way...apart from the added BONUS of having an OC.

There are no easy answers...there are no easy solutions...but of all on this particular forum, I see you and Stacia as the most positive forms of contact there is...and both of you have shared some real struggles and heartaches along the way. But what you are doing for your child and Stacia's lil bit is worth it for those children's sakes. What my Husband and I have decided has also been worth it for our children and also OC's sake also. There never is a one size fits all.

I like you. I don't always agree at times with what you post, and there are times that I do. I would love to hear more posts of your struggles as well as triumphs in your quest for including all in your life. It's a tall order at times...but you seem equipped to do it.

This board can be balanced. It can offer all sides, positive and negative. It can help people/lurkers make informed decisions about their lives if need be.

But PLEASE...(not you M05, I am talking to ALL the board here now) let us get through our processess...it takes time...and some of us have more of that luxury of time than others. I don't see this as whining. I see this as one step in many in moving on with our lives.

I wish y'all peace and a dry day today if y'all aren't in the line of these storms that we are having...

Hugs and prayers,
Twiisty <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
<strong>just maybe your choice of one word that triggers hurt feelings.

Would we be so quick to call our grandchild "[censored]?" Even if it is true? To me, the word [censored] sounds as bad as [censored] and is meant to cut just as deep. And it does... In context, out of context, in the dictionary, out loud, on paper, regardless...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTDT

When you put it like that, it makes me ashamed. I am really, really sorry. This is from someone who's mantra is "never apologize, never explain". I would never want to hurt you.

You're right. My beloved grandson is a [censored] and my husband and I have discussed the fact that he is illegitimate, but it does not diminish him. It is common knowledge in our family that my grandson is probably one of the nicest and kindest people on this planet. Everyone is drawn to him for his sweetness and senstivity...he is just one really wonderful person and if someone called him a [censored] to his face, I would literally mop up the floor with them. But, that is if they did something to him directly to hurt him.

When I call the XOW's child a [censored] spawn, I am insulting her and I do not really mean the child, because I carry secret tender feelings for her even though her existence is the most painful thing I have ever endured. It is something I would like to say to XOW...out of earshot to the child. I would never want to hurt the child, but I would like to make the XOW cringe and hang her head in shame. But, fat chance. She doesn't care. She set this whole thing up to get a fat check every month, is terrified we will go for joint custody, tried to attach our house, tried to have my husband put in jail and have his license revoked, hires extremely aggressive attorneys and slaps me with fraudulent restraining orders.

When I use that disgraceful term, I am usually in a rage and am venting my frustration and pain. It is not nice, it is probably wrong, but this is the one place I thought I could spew my nastiness and be understood and that no one else would get hurt...and that I wouldn't be dumping this bitterness onto my hsuband who suffers more than he can bear, or I.

It's a cat's cradle and a tenuous one at best.

To you, BTDT, and to Ohbratti, I want you both to know how much I respect you and care deeply about you both and I don't ever want to hurt either of you and I am so sorry if my fervor during one of my crazed rants have hurt your feelings. I don't REALLY feel that way...just at the very moment I say it when I am so wracked with pain I can hardly see straight. Then it passes, I then read my words that I have written and cringe myself at something that sounds so incredibly unkind, crass and hateful and so unlike the way I really feel. But, I have nowhere else to go with this feeling when it comes over me. It is an ugly paradox.

I know I have used really harsh and ugly words to win an argument, to purge myself of pain for the moment, to offend renegade OW's who intrude here from GloryB and to just be mean becaue I know it hurts. I just hate it when people like you and Ohbratti getting caught in my cross fire.

I promise right here and now, I will never use that term again here on these boards unless we get someone like Bonnie B declaring all out war. Then I reserve the right to fight as good as we get.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twiisty:
[QB]but please don't belittle other people's pain. You created the OC, you couldn't possibly understand nor do we expect you to, just as we didn't create an OC and we couldn't understand where you are coming from.
I have seen that you take everything personally when it comes to how others feel about THEIR oc...not yours.

I also see on the other boards in this forum the bitterness towards an OP. I also see the WS's in other boards defending their actions. I read some of those posts over there and think to myself, "geeze...get a grip...try having an OC for size..." and you know what? I just belittled their real, legitimate pain....and I have to catch myself and I try to empathize with them and see if I felt that way...apart from the added BONUS of having an OC.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so wise, Twiisty. It is so true. Every section of this MB site has the same pain and issues...with our site having this 'extra' twist to it. The other MB members from other section comes here and say "eeeewwww"...and are relieved that they don't have this situation to contend with. Most rarely or never come here because they are afraid of this nightmare possibillity visiting them...like it is contageous or something. It is the worst possible thing that can happen to a marraige, more than the affair itself.

It bothers me a lot when some of the people here on this site make mocking comments like MOF did but compain all day long about our insensitive comments and always, always, always identify with our postings as if it is all about her. When it isn't.

MOF, you are entitled to make you comments like you did and I for one will not scold you for your POV, I am just pointing out that you do the same thing you accuse everyone else of doing...being insensitive. I could say something like "you are so incredibly self absorbed to identify and claim every negative thing we say about OW's or OC's and immediately relate to it and take offense to it as though we mean you." But I won't. We all know this is true of you, and that's OK. You can continue to do this because of your need to justify or whatever provokes you to come here making your declarations. But this site was originally designed for Betrayed Spouses not Ow's, so I think you should at least stop campaigning for yourself ad nauseum. We all know you position. You don't need to immeditely jump to your own defense when something relating to our OW's or our OC's tweaks you and you make it your own. Your 'scolding' might intimidate newbies in need from saying what they want and feel out of fear that you will be there to make excuses and to mock them. You don't need to be the crusading OW for all our OW's in our lives or on the board, setting us 'right' with your put downs when you don't like what someone has said. That's not playing fair, MOF.

Your 'scolding' might intimidate newbies in need from saying what they want and feel out of fear that you will be there to make excuses and to mock them. You don't need to be the crusading OW for all our OW's in our lives or on the board, setting us 'right' with your put downs when you don't like what someone has said. That's not playing fair, MOF.

I am not a crusading other woman, just a mom, wife[ws] and I happen to have a child from an affair. I am not crusading for them, I think they can all take care of them selves. I think your right I should be careful what I say, we all have triggers, But so should all the bs's as well.
Funny how it is ok to offend someone who has a oc, but not ok to offend the wife or husband who produced the other child. Doesnt any one find that odd.

and to make a statement that a bad spirit entered my child when she was conceived, please, I am supposed to sit and smile and say oh, i bet thats why she through a fit yesterday!? Give me a break.


Your right twisty and I am sorry to offend you or any one, but hearing such things about oc is for me offensive as well.

I am working hard on my marriage and yes, I have an oc and yes I have a parent relationship with om, and yes we all work together and no it still has some problems that could be worked out. I also speak with and work with oms wife to make this a better situation for all.

But newbies should know as well, and that includes ws's abd bs's not all ow, are maniacs, who dont care for their children and drag them to court every chance they get for more money. I let him decide how much he wants to pay and he decided he wanted her in his life, not me. , , or keep child away or for that matter prevent them from moving on in their life, I have forced no one to do any thing, and I am really not intrested if you like it or not catnip.
so you may go back in peace I will leave this alone, You can debate all day.
I am off to pick out paint for the new house, and do some work.

Hmmmmm.... so much to read since yesterday on this thread.....

Thankyou Zebrababy for realizing what the heck I was trying to write! I knew someone understood the difference of oc/sin/act.

Twiisty the "ole pregnancy" hormones are kicking up with your down to earth replies. I identify with all you have typed on this thread. Along with Unhappywife and Catnip and....

OB1! We go back a long way. Your insight on the issues at hand are a breath of fresh air. I feel if all ow would have the grace that you have, we would be able to help one another. You have risen above all of the pain in your life to be a wonderful and compassionate woman. BTW, happy belated birthday to your little angel Jonas. He has one wise Mom and is sooooo lucky.

BTDT, you too have become a woman whose opinions I value. I was cautious at first. You have proved over and over again what God can do to change a persons life.
You are right about "fixing why the betrayal took place", sometimes though, w/oc and ow who won't peacefully go away, you get stuck in the pain (unbearable at times) of another woman giving birth to your husbands child. I truly have realized the "why" although I don't understand it.

Perhaps the one reason marriages w/oc heal better is that "wakeup call from God" I was talking about.

My husband will not travel that sinful road again.
We have come so far together in these past two years. I thank God we stayed together as does he.
Hey, our 29th is upcoming in March!

We apply all of the Harleys principals daily now.
Without God and those principals we would have been so lost.

At the 2 year mark, which is tomorrow (13th), I can't believe how far we've come!

All I'd like to say is God bless everyone here. May HE continue to open more hearts and eyes to follow HIS ways.

Last note to all ow/w/oc's..."[censored]" is definately meant to hurt ow. I said it to ow in the past and it always got a huge response from her. Only after being provoked. After her one call to me that she told me whenever I was with my H to remember H was all over her...and H loved it! UGH!!! Took a while for THAT to go away!

So, sorry if it offended you. Was only meant to help poor Tina is all.
love
Debi

To all, one more thing---

I am so tired of hearing about how some of us whine our way through life. Did it ever occur to those who complain that this site is specifically designed for expressing oneself so that in our real lives it doesn't negatively impact our lives?

I hate the word whining. It implies that what anyone says is not worthy, is negative, is childish.

I don't agree. And I don't think anyone is whining here. I think we all need to share how we feel, whatever it is, and be accepted by others.That doesn't mean you agree with what anyone says, but that you just agree to give anyone their space to say what they want. Connoting what people say as whining implies criticism and sounds as if we think whiners are not progressing in their healing. I would rather hang out with alleged "whiners" than be with people who stuff their feelings and enter into affairs to "heal " their junk, my own H included.

So there. I said it. And I am whining as I say it.

Twiisty: I must have misunderstood your post- I thought you said your husband gave up his rights but you are right on target and your words make a lot of sense. I hope one day I am able to have your peace. I guess that's why my posts come off the way they do- I so totally understand bitterness and rage and trying to conquer that. I'm at the point now where I just live- I dont' care anymore about the drama in my life which makes me frustrated when I see people who are stressing over things they can't change. I think you are a breath of fresh air here and I hope that you remain clear-headed and your situation is worked out. If you believe and don't doubt, it will be.
P.S. Sorry for sounding like I just left Bible class but I know that even in our weakest hour,we have to live what we claim in its entirety. And I still have a long way to go!

Catnip is on the right track as usual! You were there "for" Tina, which is the purpose of this Forum is it not? I'm sorry, but if people want to be in denial about the truth, the truth is a child born outside of a marriage union is a "[censored]". It is in the dictionary. Why is that everyone is so concerned about the OC and not the children of the marriage union? Those children are just as innocent and deserve their rightful place and place of respect in the family. Unfortunately, the sins of the MM and the OW are bestowed upon the OC. No, it is not their fault, but they will have to live down the stigma of their birth because of their "parent's decisions". That is why I am the advocate of truly unselfishness in this situation - - which would be to give the child up for adoption and let it have a "normal" life with 2 parents that are in a marital union and can give it the stable life that every child deserves. Is it fair? No, but then life isn't fair. I think when 2 selfish people think of their own "needs" and "fleshly desires", then unfortunately there are consequences to those actions. Why do we live in a society where people want to pussyfoot around the idea of suffering consequences for actions? I have to suffer every day the consequences of my husband's actions (having a child out of wedlock with another woman) whether I am with him or not. I had no choice in the matter; my daughter had no choice in the matter. He did and his OW did. They both knew that he was married and didn't care about the consequences. So now we are suppossed to roll out the red carpet for these illegitimate children even though they are a constant reminder of the pain and the infidelity? Some people are apparently masochists - - otherwise how can you say that you don't think about it? I (for the sake of my marriage) swallowed really deep and opened my heart up to the OC. Where did it get me? It got my daughter and I attached to him and then - guess what? The OW decided we were too close for comfort and she didn't like that so, she pulls her little puppet strings and tells my H that "she doesn't really like us getting close" and then him, being the wonderful stand-up man that he is - said "whatever you say". See, you try to do the right thing and then you suffer even for that. Well, I'm sorry, nothing Catnip said was out of line - it was simply very bluntly stated - and it is the truth. Tina has suffered enough at the hands of this "selfish man" enough - and then he has the audacity to want to announce to the world his illegitimate children - well, if he was so proud - why aren't they legitimate children? If someone is truly remorseful about what they've done, then yes, I can see trying to work things out; but in this situation, when a man just (again) wants his own needs met at the cost of everyone else, that is truly despicable. God have mercy on his soul. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Well, as I live and breathe!!! Daycare! Where have you been? What's going on? Sounds like things haven't changed too much. How about an update on your situation?

I've wondered what ever became of you. I don't think I have talked to you for over a year. What's going on?

Catnip =^^=

Good evening people
This topic started because some folks had a problem with Catnip's choice of words calling her insentive and so forth.

Well guess what to those who felt she was being insentive, only because you tried on the shoe and it fit very well acording to the dictionary meaning below.

Just keeping this real. I found out the problem here is the truth hurts, like a thorn in your side. Some people here don't want to hear the truth, well how can you heal yourself if you run from self. The truth will set you free.

[censored] (2)

bas·[censored] [ bástrd ]
noun (plural bas·[censored])

1. a taboo term for a disagreeable or obnoxious person ( slang taboo )


2. a taboo term for somebody born to unmarried parents ( archaic or taboo )


3. a taboo term for something that is extremely difficult, trying, or unpleasant ( slang taboo )


adjective

1. a taboo term meaning born to unmarried parents ( archaic taboo )

whore

[B]whore [ hawr ]
noun (plural whores)

1. an offensive term for a prostitute


2. an offensive term for somebody regarded as being sexually indiscriminate


3. an offensive term for somebody who is regarded as willingly setting aside principles or personal integrity in order to obtain something, usually for selfish motives ( insult )


. an offensive term meaning to work as a prostitute


2. an offensive term meaning to be a regular customer of prostitutes

So there for as some may have so eleoguently put it. My OM was the 2nd man I have slept with so I'm not a whore. well guess what the dictionary says you are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. an offensive term for somebody who is regarded as willingly setting aside principles or personal integrity in order to obtain something, usually for selfish motives ( insult )</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I didn't say it the dictionary did.
Yall have a good night.
If you want to look up the meaning check out Encarta dictionary.

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

To Catnip
As you so eloguently speak it,out of your anger or whatever the case may be. Continue to be your true devine self and spread your wings. Yes you started the topic, I started the controversy to bring out the true feelings here. I'm glad you did this, it allowed me to reach inside of me and get honest with me. Never again will I cover up another's dishonesty. The truth shall set us all free.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It bothers me a lot when some of the people here on this site make mocking comments like MOF did but compain all day long about our insensitive comments and always, always, always identify with our postings as if it is all about her. When it isn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You know why she does it, because unconsciousely it really is about her. It's her self accusing spirit that makes her feel the need to defend her action when the post isn't even about her it's called GUILT she's identifying with what's said even if it's not to her. No matter how you slice it or dice it the truth will set you free.

I don't even think she conscious of it. We have a concious and we have a subconscious the things that's in our subconscious we are not aware of or we want to forget.

But your spirit won't allow you too forget. It will tug and pull and let you know it's there. Someone can say something and it will awaken that subconscious. That why she jumps in with feet first and leave the rest behind her, not even aware of here motives.

If she's really at peace with her situation the truth needs no support. She wouldn't have to defend her position. Whatever is said would roll off her like water on a ducks back.

Some of these people get me, not being honest about there true feelings and the situation they find themselves. At least we are honest about our pain.

Some folks creating all this havoc in people lives and walk around like everything is honkey dorey when it's not.YeaH like some would say well BS created the climate well my H created the climate too, but I didn't step out that just an excuse to cosign there deceptive behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sub·con·scious [ sub kónshss ]
adjective

existing unknown in the mind: present in your mind without you being aware of it


noun

unconscious part of the mind: mental activity not directly perceived by your consciousness, from which memories, feelings, or thoughts can influence your behavior without you realizing it</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 13, 2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

Oh catnip, I know you are there for hurting BS's! A personal apology is not owed to me, however it was very gracious of you and totally unexpected. We all have triggers to deal with at some point or another. I don't think anybody is whining, just sharing our innermost thoughts. I'm sure most of us don't ever go around openly discussing these things with people in our daily conversations! (For one thing, it's nobody's business!!!) We might as well get things off our chests here--anonymously! How "safe" is that???

I totally understand that calling the OC [censored] is mainly to lash out toward the xOW. I do get that... I'm not trying to influence what anyone can or cannot feel comfortable saying here either. Not at all... Feel free! catnip, you specifically asked if your word choice struck any chords so I merely provided some feedback. The facts are what they are, but the facts don't dictate our worth in God's eyes, no matter what sin we have committed. His mercy endures forever.

I don't believe God initiates or inflicts pain, but He helps us get through it. Parents' sins are visited on our kids. It's just the way life works. Can't get around it. All we can do is be grateful for the provision God has made for our forgiveness and peace.

Please remember that people change and xOW change and prayer changes things and people! We just have to keep the faith and keep moving forward affecting those positive changes. And you never know if OC is the one God uses to bring positive change to OW's life!?

catnip, you know what you need to work on, heck, we all know what areas we need work, but even when we do figure out what needs to change, we can't change ourselves! All we can do is surrender ourselves to God and let Him finish what HE started in all of us. Apart from Him, we can do nothing!!!

And... I totally agree with what Daycare Disaster said regarding Tina71's WS's inappropriate request to have the OC's listed on his father's obituary...

But sadly, his request is not out of character for a WS making life decisions while still in the fog... Hang in there, Tina. I'm glad his family respects you.

You know why she does it, because unconsciousely it really is about her. It's her self accusing spirit that makes her feel the need to defend her action when the post isn't even about her it's called GUILT she's identifying with what's said even if it's not to her. No matter how you slice it or dice it the truth will set you free.

must be it.

I was wondering why I couldnt sleep last night, must be all that guilt i am suffering from.

Your right, when you call others children a [censored] child because of how they came into this world, it does make me angry and yes I take offense to it.And yes I guess children could suffer later in life because of people like you who are ok with speaking of someones child. reguardless of how they came into this world. But you know what I also take offense to a group of people who advocate running away from a child they created and saying it is not their fault after all the women should have used protection.

I take offense to every single person assuming that a woman got pregnant to trap their precious married husband. And that their poor husband is so guilty he can hardly live with himself. where the heck was all that guilt all those years he was playing, funny how they only get guilt when they get caught.

I take offense that you assume every mother of an other child is a bad mother. I doubt it true, I also dont believe all these women are pining away for a man who supposedly ran like a coward as soon as they messed up. why would they want them back. I think you give them to much credit and I think you obsess way to much about a woman who probably is just as tired of you and your husband.

I think you think that keeping your husband from that child hurts that woman, my guess is if your that bitter and incapable of loving a child, that woman thanks god every day you are not in her childs life. Because that is a blessing.

and for those of you whos husband was unsure of visits, my guess is if you threw a big enough fit, he made you think he would never lay eyes on the child, but in reality he is seeing him/her every chance he gets and telling the other woman a story just like he is telling you. I know my om did.
sorry but we have seen it over and over again.
tina's situation is a great example of this.
but we are in agreement, he doesnt love those children enough to come in the open with them, and I believe he will regret leaving his family down the road.
I also dont believe all these women go around trying to get more and more money, while I am sure some do ,not all do, I certainly dont, I am sure there must be others.

As far as the spirit of my daughter goes, she is the sweetest most adorable baby who is loved by all, My husband loves her, I love her, om loves her and yes even his wife loves her. Does she wish she didnt have to deal with it yes, I am sure she wished it never happened.

DO I wish I never had her. NO I love every little inch of her. DOES other man wish he had not had her. NO he is so proud of her, You should see his office at work. pictures every where, if we go to lunch, he takes her and lets her meet his co workers and friends. we are not ashamed of her, we lover her.
My children love her, his children love her.
We dont fight over child support or visitation, we talk about her several times a week, my husband and he do not argue or fight.

we took a bad situation and made it better. why feel guilty over it. we do have a problem with his wifes daughter, but she is 40 and old enough to know better, so he took care of that and she is not allowed around my daughter, so thats done to. Om LETS ME MAKE ALL MAJOR DECISONS WITH my daughter, he does what I ask when I ask, why the heck should I feel bad about that.

so thats the truth and your right I do feel free.

feel free to delete this or my name I no longer participate in a site that promotes such garbage and abuse of such people, although very one sided. catnip, I do believe you are the most bitter one of all, words of wisdom, please, you are just the only one who has the guts to say what they think .. only problem is, you dont let any one else have an opinion if it differs from yours.

I will go back to my husband and friends as support, I will continue to raise my child with om. I must say we are doing a damn good job.

so malc go back to preaching about all your little spirits, MY spirit, has to go shopping.
You may respond if you wish, But I knew there was a reason I had not come to the site lately.
and for those of you are offended, by my words, remember this, this was a site for women to come here and fix marriages and for those with oc in theire lives, I have a marriage that needs fixing, I am a ws, a bs, and mother of an oc as you call them. I am supposed to be careful of my words, because they may offend, yet all the bs's on this site, can throw garbage around as long as it suits them. I am offneded when you speak of children.
I know there are several of you who have children from different situations, some have grandchildren, I can think of two, It is so good to know you are ok with someone calling your sweet baby, or grandchild a [censored] and be ok with it. Is that how you address him at the dinner tablE, MUST BE GREAT LOVE FLOWING IN YOUR HOUSE.

good bye, now I have removed my self from this site. Catnip pat your self on the back, you have finally accomplished on of your goals, I just dont have time for this, I do pray you people can somehow move past all the garbage and actually make your life worth while, it an eat you up be careful

MALC,
I don't think anyone disagreed with or debated the fact that those words are in the dictionary. Just like no one debated that the words bitter or hostile are in the dictionary. Just because they are there does not make them less hurtful. Just as you pointed out by the definitions, those words are "taboo" and "offensive". Just as no BS likes to be called "bitter" or "hateful". There are some of us that have "been there" and I have tried on those shoes and I didn't like the fit at all. That's why for my life, I choose not to continue to dwell on the negative aspects of it. I guess it is a little easier to get through for me because we have no contact. CS comes out of Hubby's pay through military allotment so it is not a constant reminder for me/us. Also, I guess I feel better knowing that the money is not going to OW but to OC. OW doesn't need the money so she has a bank account set up for OC and the CS payment go directly into that account. It is my understanding that OC will not have access to that money until she goes to college. When I originally asked Catnip if she was still in counseling I didn't mean for it to be a full blown debate. I know there are triggers and I have my bad days as well, but for the most part let go and let God.