catnip, you asked:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. We are not (Marriage Building). This is why having their own site is important for them and for us. We are not getting our issues discussed without them thwarting us with their bad manners.

I have sensitive issues to discuss and I do not feel free to do so with them here because I know from experience what will happen. I know most BS's here feel the same way. This is not beneficial for either side and the reason why so many have left.

You are highly respected here, K. Have you a solution?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I have any absolute solutions??? Of course not. But I do have several suggestions.

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a marriage building site. To cut down on a lot of the conflicts here, it would behoove everyone to stick to marriage building. If there's one thing that I've noticed during my 50 years of participation here (OK, maybe it's less... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) is that the "venting" posts have increased. Everywhere---not just in this area. Ask yourself if venting really ever helps. In general, I see it as a hinderance to recovery---it gets you riled up, and it gets others riled up. Being angry isn't good---it's a health risk to you, it can be a health risk to others (if you're really angry...). I understand that there are times when you're going to be angry and upset and need the comeraderie and advice of others who have BTDT---but don't make it a way of life.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you do see a venting post and you don't sympathize---then don't post on it. The only time you ought to be antagonistic is with someone who is clearly posting outside the guidelines of the site---and even then, please use some common sense. I get very annoyed with the "drive by" postings that tell someone (usually the men) that their wife is horrible, dump her and move on. It's like telling someone on a building ledge to jump. But I don't respond to all of those---I'd ask everyone here to learn some patience.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stick to marriage building. I think I've said this before, but don't come here as a rigid supporter of "the innocent OC", or "no contact ever", and try to push an education agenda. A big Harley no-no is "attempting to educate your spouse"---it rarely ever builds love, and on this highly emotional board, it's likely to win any friends if you attempt to educate others with heavy-handed methods. It's called a disrespectful judgement, which brings me to...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be respectful. What I've seen here at times is an amazing lack of respect---and it comes from all sides. There's no one set of people here with bad manners---we all exhibit them at times. Learning to respect is another critical part of healing from this trauma. Name calling, stereotyping, badmouthing---how does this help anyone?</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try to be empathetic. How does it feel to be in someone else's shoes?? I see a lot of BS's over in General Questions stating that they could "never" have cheated---their morals (vows) wouldn't let them. I worry (and Steve would concur) that those people are very often the ones who end up as WS's themselves. Catnip---I think of your situation. How a predatory woman has almost completely destroyed the life you have. And even with my empathy, I imagine that I'm only feeling 1% of your pain. If you all would learn to try this before you post---regardless of what side of the fence you are on---this place would be safer.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I personally don't think that splintering off this section into two is a good thing. I'm still not sure that the original splitting of the board into these several topics always works (although I understand the reasons, and back in the good old days we had a lot less traffic). I don't have the feeling that a lot of betrayed spouses have run from these boards (although you ladies probably know better). We have had problems in the past with abusive posters that did need to be banned. But right now, the abuse is coming from within. This isn't a politics board---we have a lot of hurting people with real feelings. It's not OK to pretend that they aren't hurt when malicious and mean-spirited things are posted. We've all got to grow up a little bit and get beyond these stereotypes---and start making our marriages better. And the MB way to that is by rebuilding romantic love---which we don't get to hear enough about over here.
I hope this helps...

K~~ You're wonderful.

My children's birth mom was/is a heroin addict.

I used to "hate" her for the damage she inflicted upon my children by her selfishness ... "using" while pregnant.

What the hell was she thinking? Why didn't she use contraception? Why didn't she go into a treatment center for pregnant addicts? Why did she completely avoid all prenatal care, and simply present herself in full-on labor to the county emergency room? WHY? WHY? WHY?

I could easily say "I would NEVER have done this and such ... HOW COULD SHE?"

Well .... perhaps if I had been raised the way she was ... in and out of foster homes ... suffering abuse ... and who knows what else.... I might have made similar "wrong" choices. Perhaps not, but, who knows?

My point is, I have come to make a mental and spiritual peace with her. I offer her up in my prayers. I thank her for not aborting my children (in my mind I speak to her, I've never met her).

I wonder how SHE would be treated by all you fine MB ladies if she ever ventured to post here and told her story????

"Everyone makes mistakes" .... "Everyone deserves to be happy" .... "I didn't mean to hurt anyone else, I was just following my feelings"...."It (drug abuse and pregnancies) just happened"...."I was unhappy, and I was looking for a way out of my unhappiness".... ALL THINGS my childrens' birth mother may say to explain her actions .... all true.

My anger toward her has evaporated, and we are just dealing with life on life's terms.

My world view says: WOMEN ARE SPECIAL. Our bodies have been granted the miracle of creating a new life. Let us use our gifts wisely .... I was never granted the gift of pregnancy .... but I have been gifted through this other woman's body. How can I hate her??? She represents my paradox .... my challenge .... I am her sister .... and I pray she feels love and seeks love in safer ways the rest of her life.

Pepper

K,
Most of us came here knowing this was a marriage building site.

Your advice to men in your situation is always well worded and to the point.

Having said that I have to tell you what Steve Harley wrote back to me from an e-mail I had sent him on visitation as a woman BS. He felt it was best for marriages in this situation to leave it alone, and I concur. As now does my H.

BEFORE that advise we tried visitation and it was too hard for all of us. We decided together to let it go for the sake of our sanity and marriage. I always told my H to do what he wanted because I will never take a moment of resentment from him if he felt he was missing out. His reply was how could he ever resent the woman he married and loved? That worked so hard to make a go of things even when the chips were so down they were crumbs on the floor.

That is from a woman BS.

From your stand point, you never have to deal w/OM in any way. You and your W/D are a family united again with no outside interference from OM.
That is the peace you get from leaving the former lover out of your marriage as it's the peace I get from leaving my H's former lover out of ours. Regardless of the OC.

That is how you and I built our marriages.

Now there are women here who have accepted oc and can help others here who are in that situation. I don't interfere with them saying how well or not it works.

It's the flaming remarks like "How can you love a man who turns his back on his child?", or "You know your H should have worn a condom" as a reply to a complaint that I may have posted about ow/oc that set my as* on fire.

There are many more things that have been said.

Just as you do not care for drop in posters to men who tell them to get rid of their wives, we women BS do not want to hear the OW version! By now most of have heard enough! Plus they ALL SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD! They have said the same things ow in our situation has said or written to me and it just sets me off!

Complaining here to other BS/w/oc used to be the safe place to vent to avoid LB's....When we DO complain, we're usually harrassed to help us see ow side and frankly I'm sick of it.

It does not help newcomers.

It may indeed scare them away.

Now if they came here as Ohbratti1, and BTDT, to name a few, and "don't" say things to get us (women BS) skyrocketing angry because we said something they take personally we can all get along.

Ohbratti and BTDT "get it". They both understand marriage building is for the recovery of a marriage and advise according to that.

Ohbratti was so very kind to answer me from her side of things a few times. Each time I printed and read and re-read them. No flame. No blaming.

Please do not single out Catnip as the cause either. She has said what many of us feel and e-mail to each other off the boards. Sure she gets riled up and ends up apologizing when she's gone too far.
Please look back to before ow began to post. The oldies and newbies alike were free to cry and rant and rave about the oc without a woman who has one, coming aboard to tell us were wrong, to constantly tell us we're selfish women, to ask us why we took our H's back, and to tell us they may be secretly having visitation.

Does that build marriage or create havoc? It usually reduces us women BS into sophmoric battles that go on for days.

As long as they keep it up, I'm sure a few old girls are gonna take em up on the issues they shove down our throats. Simply put, K, we don't want to read it!

I'm not angry at you K. I just want you to know while we were busy building our marriages a few newcomers took the buildings down with their words.

I love having this place to come to and would hate to see it end over all that has gone on lately.

I guess we should learn to love the sinner and hate the sin. I can only do that when there is humility in the sinner. I am not perfect like God.

As far as saying I would never betray my spouse because my vows mean too much to me, I guess according to you and Steve I better watch out eh?

Nah....I don't have to. I won't do it!
I honestly don't know how you arrived at that conclusion......

Love
Debi

K,

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint here. I agree 100%. I find it fascinating that you have lived with ultimately the same experience many have here and yet, your perspective is different on the entire situation. It is refreshing and inspiring to me, as a WS.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>K,
Most of us came here knowing this was a marriage building site.

Your advice to men in your situation is always well worded and to the point.

Having said that I have to tell you what Steve Harley wrote back to me from an e-mail I had sent him on visitation as a woman BS. He felt it was best for marriages in this situation to leave it alone, and I concur. As now does my H.

BEFORE that advise we tried visitation and it was too hard for all of us. We decided together to let it go for the sake of our sanity and marriage. I always told my H to do what he wanted because I will never take a moment of resentment from him if he felt he was missing out. His reply was how could he ever resent the woman he married and loved? That worked so hard to make a go of things even when the chips were so down they were crumbs on the floor.

That is from a woman BS.

From your stand point, you never have to deal w/OM in any way. You and your W/D are a family united again with no outside interference from OM.
That is the peace you get from leaving the former lover out of your marriage as it's the peace I get from leaving my H's former lover out of ours. Regardless of the OC.

That is how you and I built our marriages.

Now there are women here who have accepted oc and can help others here who are in that situation. I don't interfere with them saying how well or not it works.

It's the flaming remarks like "How can you love a man who turns his back on his child?", or "You know your H should have worn a condom" as a reply to a complaint that I may have posted about ow/oc that set my as* on fire.

There are many more things that have been said.

Just as you do not care for drop in posters to men who tell them to get rid of their wives, we women BS do not want to hear the OW version! By now most of have heard enough! Plus they ALL SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD! They have said the same things ow in our situation has said or written to me and it just sets me off!

Complaining here to other BS/w/oc used to be the safe place to vent to avoid LB's....When we DO complain, we're usually harrassed to help us see ow side and frankly I'm sick of it.

It does not help newcomers.

It may indeed scare them away.

Now if they came here as Ohbratti1, and BTDT, to name a few, and "don't" say things to get us (women BS) skyrocketing angry because we said something they take personally we can all get along.

Ohbratti and BTDT "get it". They both understand marriage building is for the recovery of a marriage and advise according to that.

Ohbratti was so very kind to answer me from her side of things a few times. Each time I printed and read and re-read them. No flame. No blaming.

Please do not single out Catnip as the cause either. She has said what many of us feel and e-mail to each other off the boards. Sure she gets riled up and ends up apologizing when she's gone too far.
Please look back to before ow began to post. The oldies and newbies alike were free to cry and rant and rave about the oc without a woman who has one, coming aboard to tell us were wrong, to constantly tell us we're selfish women, to ask us why we took our H's back, and to tell us they may be secretly having visitation.

Does that build marriage or create havoc? It usually reduces us women BS into sophmoric battles that go on for days.

As long as they keep it up, I'm sure a few old girls are gonna take em up on the issues they shove down our throats. Simply put, K, we don't want to read it!

I'm not angry at you K. I just want you to know while we were busy building our marriages a few newcomers took the buildings down with their words.

I love having this place to come to and would hate to see it end over all that has gone on lately.

I guess we should learn to love the sinner and hate the sin. I can only do that when there is humility in the sinner. I am not perfect like God.

As far as saying I would never betray my spouse because my vows mean too much to me, I guess according to you and Steve I better watch out eh?

Nah....I don't have to. I won't do it!
I honestly don't know how you arrived at that conclusion......

Love
Debi</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk about sounding like a broken record. This is perfect example right here. Repeating the same old thing over and over. If "we" don't agree with you then "we" just don't get it. Whatever. You and some of the other "oldies" have been here for years venting and complaining with free reign. You biggest complaint is you can't use this board as a rant forum anymore. I dont think you get it. That is coming from me, the WS.
So, now we established you have your opinion and I have mine. That isn't a crime on a public forum btw.

CM

gem
I dont think K was singling any one out least of all catnip, i think he just meant we all have to try and spend more time working on marriages and not debating who's right or wrong.

I spent alot of years saying I would never do such a thing, and was frankly disgusted by someone who would.. turns out I was more human than I thought...
I think after so much hurt and betrayel, your self esteem becomes so low, you dont know what you would do till that happens.. I certainly did not.

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

This is not a public forum!

If you read(?) Note from Administrator above it is cleary stated.

K is right - as usual.

Although I read the boards almost every day, I don't often post - - primarily because my marriage failed, and I don't know how helpful my advice in marriage-building could be to anyone. It's like the engineer who built the titanic trying to tell somebody how to keep their boat afloat, ya know?

My other problem is that I am so much happier now in my new life that my perspective has changed. Sometimes when I read about BS's in pain caused by the WS's actions, or the actions of the OW, I have to hold myself back from typing, "Why don't you just leave the bum?" But then when I am back in control (or when my hands go numb - whichever comes first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I remember that every marriage is not like mine was - and although I had very good reasons for leaving (physical and emotional abuse) others here have excellent reasons for staying. And I think about how stupid and egocentric I would sound to make such a blanket statement to somebody who is obviously struggling to make a painful situation better.

But I am reminded of a time when I didn't have so much self-control. Back when I first started posting here, I inadvertantly upset some other members with my heavy-handed self-righteous statements. Fortunately for me, Heavenlybody1 took me aside and explained that although I had a right to my opinions, I really needed to learn to express them in a less abrasive and more respectful way because even though my intent was not to hurt anybody, I was in fact doing just that. And then I read a post by K, who said that he often typed long replies but ended up not sending them because they were inappropriate. Since then, I have tried to post only when I think I really have something helpful to say, or when I feel like I can actually add something worthwhile to the conversation, and I have reviewed my posts before hitting the "add reply" button.

Basically, I think if everybody pays attention to what they are writing and just asks themselves the questions, "Is what I wrote going to hurt somebody else?" or "Is there some way I can say exactly the same thing in a respectful manner" before replying it would help the situation greatly. The best posts here are the ones that carefully examine the situation and make replies without making personal attacks. Ohbratti1's reflections as a mother of an oc is a large part of how I came to (more or less <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) find forgiveness for the ow. She always presents her thoughts in a very respectful and mature manner, and much of what she has said has stuck with me for weeks and months after reading - and even when I don't agree with her, I have had to pause and consider her viewpoint. Isn't that what we want - for others to consider what we say? Isn't that better than having someone dismiss our thoughts in anger?

I think that some of the "new" ow posters have some really wonderful things to say - but it is getting lost and overlooked because of the presentation. And I know for a fact what generous, caring BS are here - but the anger and defensiveness is obscuring their true personalities. What a shame. I know people can learn so much here. I know I have. Talk about what works, have the venting sessions (I personally think that venting can be very helpful)- just keep it respectful to others and keep the personal jabs and the hurtful generalizations out of it.

Besides, I probably will get married again someday (but not tomorrow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) and I have to keep learning from you all so I don't make the same mistakes twice.

The fact is, in such a place, ranting and raving can be marriage building. I rant and rave here on days I want to rant and rave at loved ones. It protects them from my wrath-- and keeps me sane. I think that is o.k for this board.

Attacking someone's position is not acceptable. I think that is different than asking questions of someone's situation. All of us are different, all of us have things we can accept and not.

I have said I would not have an A. Ever. I am quite sure I will not. I certainly have not done it yet, and could have. I don't say that to sound superior to others-I just know myself quite well.

This site can be open to all. but we will not all agree. I must say I resent it when some respond to my posts with less than respectful comments.But it doesn't keep me away. It just makes me realize that those are the people I won't correspond with or post to anymore. They are not about helping me, instead are about hurting me. Not what I am interested in.

I also think we each have positions about contact, OC, etc. No one can make any decisions about these situations but the involved individuals. No one's situation is the same-one OC does not look like the others. We each are trying to do the best we can.

JMHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KalGrl:
<strong>This is not a public forum!

If you read(?) Note from Administrator above it is cleary stated.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ooops, got me. I know that. Bad choice of words. I'll rephrase that. (By public I mean, publically accessible, free of charge, etc). This isn't the place to be looking for everyone to be singing the same song every day. If that is what you want, a private therapist where the general public can't join you and your opinions , may be more suitable for those who want all to join their complaint and blame sessions and sing only their theme songs. Clearer for you now?

CM

CM,
It is also not a place for people to hurl derogatory statements and barbed insults. My mother once told me, "If people keep telling you that you are being offensive, take a good hard look at yourself because if they are saying it, chances are it is true."
Sheez. This stuff (and not just the stuff from CM) on a thread asking for respectfulness....it is enough to boggle one's mind.
-cdcollins

Btw, did you all notice that there are several newbies here who are barely getting any response at all. How about leaving the controversy die down and provide some support to those in need. I don't feel all that qualified to instill hope and courage in those fighting for their marriages right now, but I know some of you are the best there are out there for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cdcollins:
<strong>CM,
It is also not a place for people to hurl derogatory statements and barbed insults. My mother once told me, "If people keep telling you that you are being offensive, take a good hard look at yourself because if they are saying it, chances are it is true."
Sheez. This stuff (and not just the stuff from CM) on a thread asking for respectfulness....it is enough to boggle one's mind.
-cdcollins</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sick of being pointed out. I'm sick of being disrespected when I voice my support of another poster. (example-malc post) I'm sick of coming here after weeks of not coming around, to see derogatory insults toward certain people. I'm sick of it CD, so please, with all due respect, go and focus your posts on someone else, a BS perhaps.

Okay, so some bs's here have been told they are offensive. Yet, they continue on with their disrespectfullness. Do you honestly think I'm going to edit my words when they don't? Lets be real. Do you think that its okay for the bs's to use triggering statments or words toward us ow/ws's? Oh, my goodness, if we respond without editing the @rap out of our post then we must be offensive. I'm tired of the one sided argument. That is what this is. One sided arguement. It doesn't work in litigation does it CD? No, as flat as a pancake is, there are always two sides. If they lack the capacity to understand the basics regarding respect, I'm not about to teach them.
Did you happen to read my reply to K? I agree wholeheartedly with him. Funny, one of the most troubled bs's replied yet again with a problem with his suggestion. Imagine that?!
Trying yet another attempt at blaming and complaining that the site just isn't the same old complaint center it used to be and it must be our fault. When I speak from my experience as a ws, I'm told what the hell do I know? HusbandX doesn't feel that way. When I speak from my experience as an ex-OW, I'm told, what the heck do I know about affairs. It is ridiculous and actually humorous.
They dont want to tip toe around us? Okay. Get used to it. You get what you give. You dish out disrespect, plan on some in return. That is life.

CM

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Dear K

I just got in...twelve hours later and saw your post. I wish I could have responded earlier before the spirit of the thread was crushed.

Now, do you see what I mean?

Catnip =^^=

catnip,

I do---but again, the noise is from both sides, not just one.

And I do hope you know I wasn't picking on you---I was just responding to the question.

gem,

I'm not arguing against not being mad or upset with the comments that you've posted---again, those types of comments show an amazing lack of empathy.

You mentioned this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The oldies and newbies alike were free to cry and rant and rave about the oc...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember those days. I personally felt that they were highly unproductive, and that several newcomers and other women dealing with OC's were getting "stuck" because of the focus on ranting and raving. Now I will grant you that I'm not in the situation of having to deal with an OP constantly---but even if I was, this wouldn't be the way I handle it. There's no doubt that (most) guys have a better ability to compartmentalize their lives then (most) women. Again, I would personally suggest that you set up a yahoo board (or do this via email lists) if all you want to do is trash OW's. I don't think it belongs here (and I know that's not just what you're advocating---so please don't feel like I'm beating up on you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

And gem, about this comment---

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far as saying I would never betray my spouse because my vows mean too much to me, I guess according to you and Steve I better watch out eh?

Nah....I don't have to. I won't do it!
I honestly don't know how you arrived at that conclusion...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In general, I would agree with you. You know that I'm very committed to my marriage and vows; and logically, I couldn't fathom having an affair after being on the receiving end of one. But there are usually two contributing issues to having an affair: the first is not protecting yourself adequately (in essence, not avoiding those situations where it could be possible). The second is unmet needs in a marriage. Although I have very high moral integrity, I also haven't had sex with my wife for several years now---the best way to ensure that I don't get caught in an affair is by absolutely avoiding any situation where it could become possible. I type this to you from a steel box deep underground... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You get the point. I'm completely comfortable with people who have strong morals AND a good plan to avoid affairs. I'm less confident with those who have the morals but put themselves in temptation's way.

CMiranda:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for sharing your viewpoint here. I agree 100%.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God bless you. But you failed the test---there was no need to respond (and rerespond) to posts that you took offense to. That was the point---it makes this thread a cute little lesson.

To all---there's a good quote out (I think in Susan Page's book)---would you rather be right or be married? I can guarantee you that being right doesn't build romantic love---I am nearly always right, and it hasn't helped my wife's warm and fuzzies for me. Try assuming that you're actually wrong before posting... maybe that'll help.

And I'll go first---I truly am sorry if I've offended anyone on this thread. It was completely unintentional.

K, You have not realized that I responded with intent. I waited for what I knew would happen. A bs came along first and shared her negative attitude toward your idea. Same negativity that pervails here. My plan was from the minute I read your post, was to wait for that to happen, then come along and share what I and most of the people who she condems, feel about it. I speak for many who are sick of how the BS's here react and complain but just creep back into silence because they feel bullied and worn out from it. I don't tire easily and have no problem coming along and speaking for all of us.
You made a point of saying that you don't have to deal with an OP at this stage of your recovery. That is a good point and I would like to point out that some of the most troubled, negative BS's here do not either. They brag about no contact for years.
I have no regrets for failing your test. I did it for a reason. Their resistence and lack of interest in working together.
Now, I'm done. My point has been made.

CM

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
[QB]catnip,

I do---but again, the noise is from both sides, not just one.

=^^= Of course the noise is from both sides, K, however the imbalance here is that the minority is as (if not more) vocal, louder and ruder than the majority. I just do not believe people who feel as they do have a place here...especially if they are not MB with Rules of Honesty (disclosing their affair and paternity to H) or constantly justifying their life and taking everything said here personally and responding in kind. It is very counterproductive and difficult when we get sucked up into their debates and the newbies and member are ignored instead of helped. Their presence hinders this.

And I do hope you know I wasn't picking on you---I was just responding to the question.

=^^= Oh, I know, K...I did not take it as such at all.

gem,

I'm not arguing against not being mad or upset with the comments that you've posted---again, those types of comments show an amazing lack of empathy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The oldies and newbies alike were free to cry and rant and rave about the oc...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember those days. I personally felt that they were highly unproductive, and that several newcomers and other women dealing with OC's were getting "stuck" because of the focus on ranting and raving.

=^^= I remember just being free to do so without retribution and scolding. I don't remember it to be chronic at all. I remember the inclusion of a lot of newbies in trouble and we all banding together to offer support and comraderie. I also remember there were no harsh judgments coming from interlopers.

There's no doubt that (most) guys have a better ability to compartmentalize their lives then (most) women.

True, although it is usually a man who in a jealous rage that does something criminal after discovery...

Again, I would personally suggest that you set up a yahoo board (or do this via email lists) if all you want to do is trash OW's.

K....K!!!!! Trashing OW's is NOT all we want to do. That is patently ridiculous. In fact I never came here with the intent or desire to "trash OW's" for God's sake. And neither did anyone else. I came here in my darkest hour looking for answers and help, trusting I would find others here who could guide me through the valley. I am really surprised at your last response on this...but, it is your POV, so I say OK.

I don't think it belongs here (and I know that's not just what you're advocating---so please don't feel like I'm beating up on you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

=^^- I don't. I agree, but unless we are speaking of our own situation or something that has recently happened to us pertaining only to us, why can we not discuss it without someone from the other side coming here and chastising us, belittling us and provoking us....and always, always making it their own issue when it has nothing to do with them. I mean the colossol ego and self absorption here is incredible...how can anyone's situation with their own OW and the opinions surrounding it be of any personal attack against any OW here? These people are constantly "identifying" with everything negative we say about our OWN situations because their self centeredness makes them think the world revolves around them and everything is about them...when it isn't. I believe why this site is becoming contentious and counter productive and I am the first one to admit I get sucked up into it but the injustice is blinding and it is our responsibility to challenge the absurdity for the lurking newbies.

The demand for equal time without accepting equal responsibility and the inability to admit when wrong is something I feel is intolerable.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 26, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>