<small>[ January 07, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: queen147 ]</small>

queen,

my heart goes out to you--hug.

I don't have advice and while my H has an OC by XOW, I have not been in your situation. I WOULD be a bundle of nerves! My GOODNESS... the situations on this board could test saints.

I had an abortion as a teen and as an adult I regret that I did not have and give the child up for adoption. I think adoption would be best for most of these OC. But mothers rarely do that... certainly not if it is her only chance at having a child, but who knows if this woman is telling the truth.

My prayers. May angel wings surround you and God's will be done. I hope your H dedicates himself to your marriage.
J
in recovery 4 years and glad I stayed

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: queen147 ]</small>

Hugs--my heart goes out to you. As a Christian and a feminist I believe in a woman's right to choose, but emphasize the word CHOICE. That's when the Christian kicks in--I believe ALL these beautiful children are loved by God no matter HOW they were conceived. My H's OC is a beautiful, wonderful, sweet boy. I have contact w/him but my H refuses to see him (as yet, I am praying that this will change). I would urge you to urge your H to STOP the abortion if this is something that the OW really doesn't want to do. A coerced abortion is a terrible, terrible thing and I think it will haunt not only the OW (who may now never have another child as your wrote), but also the father of this innocent child, your H and also you as a party to the coercion even if your role is very passive right now. You have an opportunity to save an innnocent life--sure your H will have to pay CS, but he will also gain a child and you can't put a price on that. It's only money and I do think wanting a child killed just so you don't have to pay money for his/her support does illustrate the saying "money is the root of all evil." Urge your H to do the right thing--I KNOW your M and your love for each other will be stronger in the long run. A coerced abortion like this could ruin your efforts to rebuild. Also, IMHO, adoption is NOT the best answer to the problem presented by the OC--either kill it before it's born or send it away--either way it allows the child's father to hide from and deny his responsibilities for his actions--I do believe the Christian teachings that in order to atone and repent we must truely FACE our sins and work on them--not just cover up or run away or let other people (such as BWs of WHs) enable us to be cowards and cads--this is Hawthorne's point in "The Scarlet Letter". Some of the most wonderful mothers I know are unwed whereas some of the worst I have seen or read abt come from so called "respectable" middleclass marriages. I don't think having had the misfortune to get involved with a MM disqualifies an OW from being an excellent, loving mother. Good luck with all of this, I have been through it myself and know how painful it all is, but it does get better!!

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: queen147 ]</small>

This is just terrible! I see your point abt not being able to persuade your H. We can only hope that HE isn't persuading the OW but that she has made up her own mind abt termination--there really is nothing anyone can do if the mother doesn't want to continue the pregnancy--and at least you will know that you TRIED. As for NC, I really have to disagree w/Dr. H on this one, but I also know that every family situation is different. As long as the child is really loved and accepted for who he or she is, then having contact w/BOTH bio parents, as well as loving stepparents, is obviously the best thing for the child. Contact WOULD be cruel if the child was made to feel unloved, unwelcome, hated either by WH or BW--losing a child puts a hole in a person's heart IMHO--although it's probably true that men are better at ignoring and forgetting about a son or daughter. I think Ms w/OCs would be MUCH HEALTHIER if everyone regarded the OC as they would a child from a M that is no longer intact--lots and lots of families share custody, have visitation etc etc--I think it is unspeakably cruel for a MM to turn his back on his OC IMHO.
Hugs to you--I'm glad to hear you are in counseling--and at least you know that you tried to save this child

Dear Queen,

I am sorry that you are so torn by what is happening with your H and the xOW. This is not really the time to overload you with advice because you are in such an emotional state.

I just wanted to tell you that you have nothing to feel guilty about. Your H and the exOW are the two main parties involved and the decision on abortion should be primarily the woman's because it is her body.

If there is no abortion and the child is born, there are many of us on this board who are following the Harley principles and believe in them. If you want to rebuild your marriage, I believe the first priority must be for the H and W to concentrate on their marriage.

There are many who successfully have contact with the OCs, but even more on this board who have tried and it did not work out. All parties are not always capable of being adult and being as caring about the child as they should.

Sometimes that is due to the feelings of betrayal and anger that surround the affair. But a good portion of the time, it is because the exOW insists on creating problems in the marriage for whatever her reasons.

Those who are truly happy with contact, from my experience on MB (and I have been around for quite awhile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) are very few in comparison with those who are happy without contact. But there is no argument from either of those with or without contact that payment of child support is essential.

You will have time to think these things through if the exOW does not have an abortion. If she does, please stop being so hard on yourself -- it truly is not within your control.

I am asking God's blessings for all of you today that the right decisions are being made and that you will all be able to find peace at the end of this ordeal.

love,
heavenly

mobe,
in an IDEAL mature Godly world, your ideas of how OC families would work are great, but THEN none of us would be in this position in the first place. OC situations don't work well because the people involved are upset, acting out, immature, etc. etc. and I don't think that's a good environment for a child.

Prayers for recovery and God's will in Queen's family,
J

Hi Mobe....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mobe:
[QB]As a Christian and a feminist I believe in a woman's right to choose,

=^^= I'm not trying to be a smart [censored] but isn't putting Christian and feminist together as a self declaration kind of an oxymoron?

It's only money and I do think wanting a child killed just so you don't have to pay money for his/her support does illustrate the saying "money is the root of all evil."

=^^= I have never ever heard one woman on this site say that she wished or wanted the child killed. But, when you say "it's only money" me thinks you have an ample supply, or certainly more than most of us, and do not understand the incredible burden we are saddled with at the hands of a corrupt court system.

Also, IMHO, adoption is NOT the best answer to the problem presented by the OC--either kill it before it's born or send it away--either way it allows the child's father to hide from and deny his responsibilities for his actions--I do believe the Christian teachings that in order to atone and repent we must truely FACE our sins and work on them--not just cover up or run away or let other people (such as BWs of WHs) enable us to be cowards and cads--

=^^= Incredible. We are all certainly bearing the brunt of our actions ...all of us. There has been atonement and repentance like nothing I ahve ever seen before. There are huge amounts of money going to OC, so tell me, how are we as Betrayeds and Waywards covering up and running away from our obligations? Because we want fairness so we can survive ourselves and take care of our own? Does that make us evil and un-Christian? And, if I read you right, and I am not sure here, but are you saying that it is better the child dies than to be given up for adoption? Adoption is one of the most wonderful and unselfish gifts soemone can give to her child. Why do you think something as noble as adoption is terrible and that playing God and making a decision you have no right to make, i.e. the murder of an innocent child, is OK and condoned?

Some of the most wonderful mothers I know are unwed whereas some of the worst I have seen or read abt come from so called "respectable" middleclass marriages.

=^^= I am trying to contain myself and not blurt out how incredbily ignorant that statement is and just a soundbite from the 60's peace movement of pseudo-enlightenment, but I won't. Even if I did. I don't know where you get your logistics but they are completely without merit. There are a good single mothers but that lifestyle in itself cheats the child from having a father in its life. Why do you diminish "respectable middle class marriages" and say that single parenthood is better from what you have seen and "read" about? Are you just mouthing what you think is popular retoric or do you truly believe this?

I don't think having had the misfortune to get involved with a MM disqualifies an OW from being an excellent, loving mother.

=^^= I don't either, but that really isn't the issue here. We are all just trying to find some peace in our own lives and rebuild our marriages using the Harley principles. The OW's over on GB call us a little "cult" and say we are "trolls" and that's OK, it's kind of funny, actually. But mostly, we stand by our convictions that the marriage must come first and any and all children, even from the marriage, come second to the marriage for it is the foundation from which to build the future and the bedrock of security for our children.

As a former flower child, I abandoned the idealism of that era and traded it in for a libertarian logic. I just couldn't stand the contradicitons anymore...
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Wow--I guess we really see things differently Cat!! My adoption comment was in reply to a poster who opined that the best solution if an OC ISN'T aborted is for the OW to put her OC up for adoption--I just think a blanket assumption that because a single mother abandoned for whatever reason by the child's father would be doing the child a favor by putting it up for adoption is ridiculous and cruel--that there are just as many wonderful single moms out there as wonderful moms in intact marriages and bad moms in both circumstances as well. I have been a single mom and have only recently (5 years ago) remarried and I have done a great job sans paterfamilias JMHO

I am following the MB principles too as I try and rebuild my M following my H's brief affair which resulted in the birth of his son this past August BUT as a "child lover" I STRONGLY disagree w/Dr. H's advice abt dealing w/an OC--it's selfish and wrong IMHO for adults to reject an innocent child who is the father's flesh and blood for the sake of marital "harmony"--this isn't harmony in my opinion but hypocrisy and complicity and allowing the WH to escape the consequences of his actions. He was acting like a spineless, ballless jelly fish when he had the EMA. He didn't use a condom. He was EQUALLY at fault in creating an unwanted pregnancy and now the best thing for his growth and maturity is simply to sweep his child under the carpet, turn his back and try and weasel out of CS? Sorry, I think this is a very damaging path both for the WH who is STILL BEING RESCUED FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS BY AN ENABLING W and for the M itself which will now be based on cruelty to an innocent child, repression of the truth abt what has happened w/in the M etc. That's why I think Dr. H is WAY, WAY OFF BASE in his cruel advice to shun the OC. Unfortunately my WH DOES want to deny, be a coward etc. etc. Well I have REFUSED to help him be a cad, coward, and weasel. Sorry--you are a father to this beautiful little son you went out and created. No, he was wholly unplanned and unwanted but GUESS WHAT he exists and now his needs are more important than all of the selfish grownups whining abt their own problems. My H just doesn't see it this way but I am hoping w/counseling he will see that I can't stay married to a man who would turn his back on his own child, it just sickens me and pains me much more deeply than his brief meaningless affair ever could--it's so much more cruel, sinister and selfish.

oh yes, if the primary reason to shun an OC is to create a M that is a "bedrock of security" then we are all simply married to the WRONG MEN. Let's face it--our Hs are fuc*ed up in some way or another--they are NOT the ideal, wonderful Hs that we would like and they NEVER WILL BE. They have cheated on us, potentially exposed us to S.T.D.s--even AIDS--and have gotten another woman pregnant. And lets be honest, for many of these Hs this ISN'T their first EMA--they perhaps have a compulsion or an illness--they are to be pitied and forgiven, but it is ridiculous to think that our Ms could be a "bedrock of security" considering the actions of our Hs--sorry, we have to accept the fact that we are married to very troubled men and we can NEVER really be "secure" with them. So to shun a beautiful child and blight its life and be cruel to it for the sake of making one's M a "bedrock" seems very misguided IMHO.

can't sleep tonight so i thought i would add my 2 cents. i think that all ws's should be thrown out in the street. now having said that why don't i throw fh out? because bottom line is i love her and i want just as much for my c's to grow up in a one family enviornment. what is the responsibility of her om? pay his cs and stay go back and rebuild his marriage. don't tear this INNOCENT child between 2 families with different cultural backgrounds for the sake of his male ego or since i am paying i want something for my money. i our situation grace will have a loving family with 7 other brothers and sisters to love her. she will know of her background but will find out information as is age appropriate. if om stays away i would not consider him a coward but probably a more honorable man for making an unselfish decision for once in his miserable life.

on abortion. i wanted fh to abort her child. am i a child hater? hardly not. i have 7 c's and think grace is the cutest tater tot i've seen. she is just starting to walk and toddles around the house with both hands up for balance. cracks me up. i believe in a womans right to choose and that is why grace is here. putting the christain belief into the mix children die every day for what we mortals call useless reason and such a waste of life. if a woman goes through with an abortion and you are the christain you profess to be then you have to believe as in all those other wasted little lives that God had His purpose in mind when He took that tender child under His arm. computer acting funny so i'll stop as i am sure to ruffle some feathers. sorry these are just MY humble opinion.

Pops--I am assuming your thoughts were somewhat directed towards me? I have been stating strong opinions in a blanket way but I do believe each situation is unique--your xOM staying out of your D's life DOES sound better for her overall--I was thinking abt OCs who don't HAVE a father in their lives. To repeat, I am a pro-CHOICE Christian--I would NEVER presume that all pregnacies shouls always continue--some women/couples are just not able to let a pregnancy continue. But if a woman feels she DOES want to continue than MMs should do the right thing financially and morally.

I am really surprised your xOM has to pay CS. In my state YOU woiuld be the legal father and would also be responsible for your D's support w/in your intact M.

m,,,,,, i have denied being grace's father and fh has filed for cs with the county. om has been notified and has not denied paternity. if he chooses to deny his roll they will then order dna tests and he will eventually be responsible for that cost also. preliminary papers have been served in which he has already been assigned $250 per month cs. this amount was based on his income being minimum wage ($1000 a month). they will serve him and fh papers and both will have to produce financial statements. his income is about $2500 per month so his cs will be adjusted. personally i like the delay as he has not given fh a dime as of yet. this from a guy that has told her several times that just let me know and i'll be glad to help out financialy. that means his arrears are growing daily. i am looking forward to seeing his face when the courts lay it on him. my appoligizies to all who have to pay outragous cs but for me they can't make the $ amount high enough. trust me this is not about the almighty dollar. it's about making a man responsible for his actions knowing i was trying to save my marriage. another term is revenge and so be it.

m,,,,, i don't fault anyone for their opinions. we may differ and that's ok. i was just making you aware of another side of the cion.

Hi pops. How's peanut?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mobe:
<strong>I STRONGLY disagree w/Dr. H's advice abt dealing w/an OC--it's selfish and wrong IMHO for adults to reject an innocent child who is the father's flesh and blood for the sake of marital "harmony"--this isn't harmony in my opinion but hypocrisy and complicity and allowing the WH to escape the consequences of his actions.

=^^= IMO, if the WH is paying humungous amounts in CS, he is definitely NOT shirking his responsibilities and he has definiely NOT escaped the consequences but is living them daily...

simply to sweep his child under the carpet, turn his back and try and weasel out of CS?

=^^= Is he weaseling out of CS???

Sorry, I think this is a very damaging path both for the WH who is STILL BEING RESCUED FROM THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS BY AN ENABLING W

=^^= How is the BS/W rescuing or enabling the WH? By taking him back?

and for the M itself which will now be based on cruelty to an innocent child

=^^= How is No Contact "cruel" to an innocent child if the WH cannot have contact because of the XOW resistance or the distance of many states or the BS/W's inability to handle contact or the other children within the family not wishing contact. Would not the child be better off without contact and to be surrounded by the OW's family and friends and possibly staying out of the picture so the OW can find a suitable partner that would love and raise OC as his own?

That's why I think Dr. H is WAY, WAY OFF BASE in his cruel advice to shun the OC.

=^^= IMO, it is hardly "cruel" but simply an effective method for couples to rebuild their marriages and recover from the infidelity. It is sound advice, but not the only solution, and it certianly doesn't mean the OC should not receive CS.

Unfortunately my WH DOES want to deny, be a coward etc. etc. Well I have REFUSED to help him be a cad, coward, and weasel. Sorry--you are a father to this beautiful little son you went out and created. No, he was wholly unplanned and unwanted but GUESS WHAT he exists and now his needs are more important than all of the selfish grownups whining abt their own problems.

=^^= You are extraordinary, Mobe...I applaud your evolvement. However, the "selfish" grown ups whining about their own problems are still paying the CS to make sure the OC's needs are met.

My H just doesn't see it this way but I am hoping w/counseling he will see that I can't stay married to a man who would turn his back on his own child, it just sickens me and pains me much more deeply than his brief meaningless affair ever could--it's so much more cruel, sinister and selfish.

=^^= I understand your passion for the innocent OC and I hope your husband will step up to the plate since he has your support to have nothing short of joint custody and complete invovlement. Good for you. I hope this works out for you.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mobe:
<strong>oh yes, if the primary reason to shun an OC is to create a M that is a "bedrock of security" then we are all simply married to the WRONG MEN.

=^^= Then, they are ALL wrong men. According to statistics, 80% of MM cheat. What is up with that? Is in inborn from ancient times when the population was small? I also heard that Marriage was created to put a leash on roaming men and to make monogamy the flavor of the millenia, to protect the family as a whole. I will never understand any of this...I am still in shock after four years.

Let's face it--our Hs are fuc*ed up in some way or another--they are NOT the ideal, wonderful Hs that we would like and they NEVER WILL BE.

=^^= Oh, hey. Don't we know that here.

They have cheated on us, potentially exposed us to S.T.D.s--even AIDS--and have gotten another woman pregnant.

=^^= You know, come to think of it, I have never ever been in a relationship where I haven't been cheated on. Either you are right about men or I have made horrible, horrible choices all my life.

And lets be honest, for many of these Hs this ISN'T their first EMA

=^^= Whoa-ho...it better be in my case or I truly did waste two decades of my life. Since this happened four years ago, I have been highly suspicious of the previous 18 years, going back in my mind's eye, trying to remember anything remotely questionable.

--they perhaps have a compulsion or an illness--they are to be pitied and forgiven, but it is ridiculous to think that our Ms could be a "bedrock of security" considering the actions of our Hs--

=^^= I disagree. Their vows at the wedding ceremony was to provide a stable home for us and our children til death do us part. Whether or not they fail at this at times throughout the marriage doesn't mean the family unit as a whole is not their first and foremost priority and should be protected at all costs.

sorry, we have to accept the fact that we are married to very troubled men and we can NEVER really be "secure" with them. So to shun a beautiful child and blight its life and be cruel to it for the sake of making one's M a "bedrock" seems very misguided IMHO.

=^^= Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I truly respect your POV and we can agree that we do indeed disagree. Your points are interesting but in this life and in this world, nothing is perfect and we are all learning and growing and trying to find our own way. Every single perosn on this site adores and loves their children and other chidlren as well. I do not think you hold the monopoly on loving children, but you are a crusade for sacrificing all for a child that is not yours. That is your choice and good for you that you can overcome what your hsuband has done to harm your marriage. However, many of the women and men here along with their spouses have not "shunned" the OC...many have worked diligently to incorporate the OC into their lives but met with OW's opposition to their involvement. What say you on this quirky sedgway? When the OW makes it clear all she wants is the almighty dollar and refuses contact with OC, isn't it the prudent thing to walk away to protect the child from rancor and trauma? And for those who choose No Contact because the Betrayed simply cannot deal with the presence of the OC at this particular time in the recovery, should not the husband pateinetly acquiesce until the time comes that the marriage has grown in strength where contact might be possible? And what about the children of origin? Do they not count and their feelings on the matter count as well? It is too simplistic to brand=stamp the WS as "shunning" the OC when the ramifications of their actions have hurt so many innocent people, including that of the OC. As long as he is paying CS, the OC has not been abandoned and is being provided for....if the OW is so concerned about whether or not her child would ahve a father figure in her child's life, perhaps then she should have chosen her child's father more wisely and found someone unattached without a wife and children.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mobe:
[QB]your xOM staying out of your D's life DOES sound better for her overall--I was thinking abt OCs who don't HAVE a father in their lives.

=^^= I thought that single parenthood was OK...

To repeat, I am a pro-CHOICE Christian--I would NEVER presume that all pregnacies shouls always continue

=^^= How does that work? It must be an incredible juxtaposition to be in for sure...on one hand abortion is murder and absolutely against every single Christian doctrine and every shred of Scripture...and yet, "choice" allows any woman to play God and usurp God's Will at will and gives women permission to terminate the life of another. It defies logic completely. As a proponent of choice, I am curious how you get these two polar opposite POV to mesh in your core beliefs.

--some women/couples are just not able to let a pregnancy continue.

=^^= Adoption is the noble option. It allows a child to live and enjoy God's wonderment of life, more often than not, enjoys the blessings of a two parent family and has advantages of a cohesive family unit. The other way is the grave...

If a MM is not involved with the OC except for CS, then he is essentially giving the child up for adoption to the OW, while providing monetary support, thus fulfilling his obligation. This is his ONLY choice and should be allowed to exercise this choice. There is no "shunning"...he is allowing the child to live rancor free and extracting this child from a life of vitriol and trauma if the OW is bitter and combative, which is sadly often the case.

But if a woman feels she DOES want to continue than MMs should do the right thing financially and morally.

=^^= so she calls the shots and makes all the determinations, gets to make all the choices and the MM (and his wife and family) should conform his life to what she wants while never having any say in the matter? Why does she get to make all these decisions?

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ December 08, 2002, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

To Mobe
I have a question not being sarcastic or anything
your way of thinking just puzzels me.

Question you being so adament about your H seeing OC are you willing to risk the possibilities of another affair possibly with OW?

Another question, I know for a fact there are a few women here masquerading as being BS but in fact they are OW, My question to you is this so for you? not being smart just merely asking a question.

I've seen so many time BS being so humble and adament about contact with OC I watch BS get played out of position because they have blinders on and become so trusting of the situation.

The A manifest itself right under the nose of the BS again without them having a clue. Are you willing to risk this? If so it will be by your own doing, by not being cautious and not listening to people who has been through this before you with experience. Did you you read the scriptures about Abraham and Sara read Genisis chapter 16 I believe.

Good Luck Queen not trying to hijack your post
I pray all is well.