In Queenie's thread you mentioned the wheels turning for CS from your OM. It MAY go smoothly if he just decides to pay for his D, but at least in my state if he had a lawyer and wanted to fight CS he would win because you are raising your D in an intact M. We have had many cases like this and the biological father is never ordered to pay unless the nonbiological father (you, the legal father) decided to D his WW after all--at that point then the courts rule that the bio father does have to pay CS. Just a head's up if your xOM decides to fight CS--he would win in many states. Also, by having him pay aren't you in a sense inviting continued contact? Since you want full custody w/NC and no visitation you would be jepardizing that w/CS from the bio dad--if he pays CS the courts will also insist on his rights to have visitation w/his D--but you are in a fully legal position to keep him out of your lives completely IF you DON'T seek CS. What does your attorney say about all of this?

Pops,

Mobe is correct about most states assuming you as the LEGAL father. Are you on the birth certificate?

Most states also give you a two year time limit to question paternity. After those two years, if you do nothing, then you are forever held liable as the legal father, no matter what.

In some cases, after the two year time limit is up and if you were to divorce, the courts would look at it as you had parented the child within the marriage and could still and most likely will hold you liable, even tho you have proof showing you are not the bio dad. There are several men going through this right now. Paying hefty cs for children they learned after years of thinking they were the father, really weren't.

If cs is what you need to go after, then do so real soon before your time limit is up.

I wish the best for you and your family.

Melissa

m & m,,,,, hey i like those. thank you for your concern. no i am not on the birth certificate. we live in ca. and it is one of those states where i have 2 yrs to deny paternaty. i have already done so through the courts. fh has also already filed for cs with the d.a.. they have contacted both parties and he tried to pull the "but she's married line". after she told them a second time of peanuts conception they contacted him and have already assigned him cs based on minimum wage. he is holding out for the dna test. he is quite aware the baby is his unless he feels she lied to him about my vasectomy which in fact the d.a. also knows of. also his wife doesn't want him to pay a dime until the results are in. this makes me happy and is where the revenge part comes in. when all the arrears get added on it will surely next to kill the cheap [censored].

i have many reasons for wanting him to take on his financial responsibility. revenge is not my only motive. there is my age in life, peanut needs all she can get in the event of my untimely departure from this earth, in which case my own 7 kids will need all they can get from my estate, he is of another nationality and this may help her somewhere down the road of life, and if i were to take grace under this 2 yr time limit law i would feel as if i had stolen or kidnapped her. that's not me i need to face things straight on no matter how unpleasant they are. don't candy coat it just tell me the facts. then i get to decide how I'LL handle the problem for ME. if he drops the ball on his visitation and never comes around i will be here to pick her up and love her as i am doing now. i paid my cs for 18 yrs with my oldest son and although there were some difficult times with his mother we (him and i) ended up very close and it was well worth the hassle.

i hope that i can face his visitation with dignity should he choose that road. i am also hoping he chooses the other road of pay and n/c working for the best interest of grace. but without the chumminess that some posters here seem to have with each other. (mo5 i understand that there are hard times even in your situation and i mean no disrespect here and i admire how you write of the way all act towards each other around your d). for me om, if he takes on visitation responsibility he will never be invited to my house for birthdays, b-b-qs or anything else. my oldest son never had that priviledge with me and his mother and with our share of inconvienences and schedule juggling all turned out fine. she was just a girlfriend i had before meeting fh. there was alot of tension in that relationship and i can't imagine how much there would be in this one with all of us here for peanuts 1st b-day later this month. he would end up buried under the trampoline for sure.

Mobe-
I won't question what you have seen. But I just wanted to add what I have seen in your state in situations where a woman has a child and husband is not bio-father. Amazing that it happens so much.

I've seen several situations where husband agrees to be dad. In that case bio-dad has little say unless he puts up a big court fight. Even then, I've seen courts say no because husband wants to be dad and they said that would be "best interest of the child".

I've also seen husband want to be dad but deny paternity and as a couple (intact family), he and wife go after bio-dad for cs (like pops and fh). They do risk bio-dad being in their child's life, including visitation or even joint custody. Bio-dad may pay cs and have visitation. But if bio-dad is not interested or sees no contact as a better option, I have seen several occasions where bio-dad is ordered to pay cs and has NO court appointed contact.

I've also seen situations as in angelia's ow's case, where mother is married but husband opts not to be dad. They are separated (not intact) and mother (or state) goes after bio-dad.

I am in a situation where my husband was in affair and he is bio-dad. We convinced OW's husband to deny paternity so we could pursue rights. I thought we'd pay cs and get visitation, but we got full custody.

Not questioning what you have seen. Just wanted to add that there are other sits. And as I said, I have seen pops' exact situation (in CA) work (in FL) too.

Pops-
Many times I really relate to your thoughts and ideas because I feel like our situations are similar. We are both raising someone else's biological child, with no real contact from OP- right now. I too have some feelings for child. I want what is best.

I know that you and fh are taking the risk of having contact by going to court. I am so scared of that, but I am watching what happens on your side of the coin. Our reasoning would be different, but going to court at all is just such a risk. My husband wants to go back to court to terminate the mother's rights, under abandonment. I just see that as stirring a pot that is very quiet right now. I want to let it lie and keep my fingers crossed hoping she stays away. But I agree that my way is a risk too. It's still up in the air at our house. Thanks for keeping us informed. Aimee

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong>he (OP) would end up buried under the trampoline for sure.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I can understand this feeling... I'm sure I would feel the same way.

Hang in there, I hope everything turns out well and for what's best for your family.

<small>[ December 09, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong>m & m,,,,, hey i like those. thank you for your concern. no i am not on the birth certificate. we live in ca. and it is one of those states where i have 2 yrs to deny paternaty. i have already done so through the courts. fh has also already filed for cs with the d.a.. they have contacted both parties and he tried to pull the "but she's married line". after she told them a second time of peanuts conception they contacted him and have already assigned him cs based on minimum wage. he is holding out for the dna test. he is quite aware the baby is his unless he feels she lied to him about my vasectomy which in fact the d.a. also knows of. also his wife doesn't want him to pay a dime until the results are in. this makes me happy and is where the revenge part comes in. when all the arrears get added on it will surely next to kill the cheap [censored].
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does the OM have any children with his wife? If so, are you concerned about what such high arrearage would do to his family, not just him?

An interseting Article About Paternity Fraud, it mentions some states that have a time line:

Melissa

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Men wage battle on 'paternity fraud'
Tue Dec 3, 7:23 AM ET
Martin Kasindorf USA TODAY

An acid sense of betrayal has been gnawing at Damon Adams since a DNA test showed that he is not the father of a 10-year-old girl born during his former marriage.

''Something changes in your heart,'' says Adams, 51, a dentist in Traverse City, Mich. ''When she walks through the door, you're seeing the product of an affair.''

But Michigan courts have spurned the DNA results Adams offered in his motions to stop paying $23,000 a year in child support. Now, Adams is lobbying the state Legislature for relief and joining other men in a national movement against what they call ''paternity fraud.''

In almost a dozen states, men have won the right to use conclusive genetic tests to end their financial obligations to children they didn't father. But women's groups and many public officials responsible for enforcing child support are battling the movement, which they say imperils children.

Most states design their family laws to protect what they call ''the interests of the child.'' That means siding with the child's financial and emotional needs and against supposed fathers who want to avoid paying for tricycles and braces.

Taxpayers also have a big stake in child support collections, which have grown to$18 billion annually and cover 20 million
children. If men who are paying child support no longer have to and authorities can't find the real fathers, welfare agencies will get the bill for family assistance.

Many men who feel deceived by a woman are in no mood to accept a legal system that doesn't recognize DNA science in such cases. ''It's like they are saying, 'Let your wife cheat on you, have children by other men, divorce you, and now you have to pay for it all,' '' says Air Force Master Sgt. Raymond Jackson, 43. California judges won't consider tests he says prove that the three children of his former 10-year marriage were fathered by other men.

Fraud, mistakes

There are signs of substantial fraud or mistakes in identifying fathers in child support disputes. The American Association of Blood Banks says the 300,626 paternity tests it conducted on men in 2000 ruled out nearly 30% as the father.

The legal doctrines raising barriers to DNA testing on paternity questions are formidable. In 30 states, married men face a 500-year-old legal presumption that any child born during a marriage is the husband's. The concept, based in English law, is aimed at preventing children from being branded illegitimate. Nebraska's Supreme Court ruled last week that an ex-husband who is not a child's father cannot sue the mother to recover child support payments.

The law is more flexible for men who admit to fathering a child out of wedlock but then change their minds or who are named by the mother. But they have only brief opportunities to deny paternity. Florida allows a year after a child support order, California two years after a birth.

Many unwed fathers paying child support have never admitted paternity. A 1996 federal welfare law requires a woman to name a father -- no questions asked -- when she applies for public assistance. A court summons can be mailed to the man's last known address. Many men don't get the notice. The result: The paychecks of 527,224 men in California, for example, are being docked under ''default'' judgments of paternity that can't be contested after six months.

Men who urge use of DNA cite a precedent: DNA's increasing impact in murder and rape cases.

''Think of it. I can get out of jail for murder based on DNA evidence, but I can't get out of child support payments,'' says Bert Riddick, 42, a computing teacher in Carson, Calif. Riddick is paying $1,400 a month for a teenage girl born out of wedlock
whom he has never met. Strapped, he and his wife are living with in-laws. Their three children, ages 3 to 11, cram into one room. He lost his driver's license for missing support payments and rides a bus 75 minutes to work.

Gradually, legislators are reshaping paternity law. Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Iowa, Ohio and Virginia now permit ex-husbands and out-of-wedlock fathers to end child support through DNA. Maryland has made the same change via court decisions.

Colorado, Illinois and Louisiana grant relief only to ex-husbands, allowing them to offer genetic proof. Texas allows ex-husbands four years from a birth to disprove paternity and gives unwed fathers unlimited time. A sweeping bill that would authorize married and unmarried fathers to offer DNA evidence is working its way through the New Jersey State Assembly.

Carnell Smith, 41, an engineer in Decatur, Ga., who was getting nowhere in challenging a support decree, started a group called U.S. Citizens Against Paternity Fraud that lobbied for the law Georgia Gov. Roy Barnes signed in May. The slogan on the Web site of Smith's group (www.paternityfraud.com): ''If the genes don't fit, you must acquit.'' Smith is back in court and says, ''I fully intend to be one of the first people to be released.''

Pending in Vermont is the toughest bill of all. It would make a mother's knowingly false allegation of fatherhood a felony that could put her behind bars for up to two years and fine her up to $5,000. ''A woman almost always knows who the father is, and if she puts down the wrong person knowingly and it's costing him money, it's just plain fraud,'' says state Rep. Leo Valliere, a republican, the bill's sponsor.

Men's rights groups aren't advancing everywhere. California Gov. Gray Davis (news - web sites) vetoed a bill in September that was opposed by women's organizations. It would have given men two years after discovering they weren't the father to produce the DNA evidence to prove it. Florida paternity fraud bills died this year. A package of bills passed the Michigan House 102-0 but is stalled in the Senate.

'Dump the child'

Some analysts say laws need revising but DNA shouldn't be decisive. ''Some people want to dump the child and say biology is all that matters, not relationships,'' says Jack Sampson, a law professor at the University of Texas-Austin. Carol Sanger, a family law professor at Columbia University in New York, says the law should be more generous to men who may not even know a child than to dads who have been living with the kids they didn't father.

"Families are more complicated than who's biologically related to whom,'' says Valerie Ackerman, staff director for the National Center for Youth Law in Oakland. ''If there has been a relationship between a father and child, the man can't just abdicate the responsibility that he's taken on.''

Supporters of current law say the interests of the child should trump a man's concern for his wallet. ''The other guy is somewhere over the hill and long gone,'' says Jenny Skoble, an attorney at the Harriet Buhai Center for Family Law in Los Angeles. ''If it comes down to whether the only (available) father is going to be on the hook to pay money or this kid is going to be in the situation of having no father, I'd say we have to put the child first.''

Men who want relief say it's a matter of equity. ''DNA equals truth,'' says Patrick McCarthy, 41, a Hillsborough, N.J., package courier. After paying for 13 years to support a girl he denies fathering, McCarthy co-founded New Jersey Citizens Against Paternity Fraud. The group has put up nine billboards supporting the pending bill in New Jersey. The ads depict a pregnant woman and ask, ''Is it yours? If not, you still have to pay!''

''Obviously, there's more to fatherhood than genes,'' McCarthy acknowledges. ''However, to pay support on a non-biological offspring should be an individual choice, not ordered by the courts.'' Adams says he's willing to directly aid the child he had thought was his but doesn't want to give his ex-wife any more cash.

Trouble could be minimized if all children were DNA-tested at birth or at the time of divorce, says Geraldine Jensen, president of the Association for Children for Enforcement of Support. She says maternity wards should distribute pamphlets telling men, ''Get tested now if you have any questions, because doing it later will disrupt this child's life.''

aimee2,,,, just to set the record straight it is i NOT fh who wanted her to persue cs. she would have been content to have me accept her and grace back into my life lock, stock and barrel nad never see mom again. i told her i could not live with that lie. so she filed with the d.a. for cs. also the d.a. does not assign visitation. they will make the om aware of his rights and it will be his responsibility to take fh to court if he plans on persueing visits. his time and money. i have a good friend who will represent me and fh for very little if need be. one of the perks of teaching his son a good swing in my 21 years of coaching little league.

i am not positive of the details of your situation but will try and look up your past history in the next day or 2. there have been several posters here that i have been able to draw some corilations to with my own situation but there are so many (sad) here with so many different situations that my head spins trying to keep up with them all.

nc4us,,,, yess om is m and has 2c's plus an o;der step d. no i don't find myself concerned with the effects of his denial or procrastination (whichever) on his family. was he concerned about the well fair of my family when he contiued to persue fh even when i let him know i was trying to save my marriage? NO. did he care if my c's ended up in a broken home if i hadn't been able to coup? NO. does he care what hardships fh is going through trying to support his d? NO. does he care what finacial strain the birth and care of his d has put on my family when fh could not work for 1-1/2 tears? NO. has he come forward with one dime or made any effort to show concern or care for his d? NO. he is a grown man (again the term is used lightly) of 36 years. he is fully aware that HE is the bio-dad. yet nothing. for all i know he may be, and i fully believe this, finding ways to hide as much of his income as possible. and for all i know he may even be planning on running. he had told fh during their a that he wanted to return to his homeland quadamala. he told fh that if he ever left his w he would take his s and go home and leave his w with his down syndrome d. he may be planning to run with his s and peanut now. who knows?

his w is one that may end up here and i have thought i have seen her at times but there is always something different that says it is not her. he has cheated on him many times and she knows it. he told fh that when she found out she suggested that he take custody of grace from fh. her thought pattern was you are paying anyway so let's take a baby from her mother.

so do i feel sorry for him and his family? yes, that they have live with a h and father who has put them in a positon to possibly lose everything. all for the chance to get his willy wet. but i am concerned more about MY family. his family is his concern. i am concerned about so many other families here that need help in various ways that i am capible of helping with ( twisty's plunbing for example) and families here who so desperately need to be taken hold of and hugged and encouraged to hold on cause things will work out. those are my concerns. one more thing, remember i am careing for a member of his family everyday.

i hope this doesn't make you think i am mad because i am far from it. these are just the facts as i see them. i like to consider myself much more direct these days and i like that part of the new me.

thanks for asking and feel free to post back if you like, rick

Hi EVERYONE
I would suggest everyone to check out stop paternity fraud.com Very informitive and for all those who had one DNA test done. There is a suggestion, to get more than one test. There have been cases, were the test results have been altered, check out sites and get facts.

No no, coming from you, I can certainly see your point. It is wierd because even though you are the family with the OC demanding money from the XMOM, I find myself thinking "Go for it! He is such a jerk, make him pay!" But by the same token, if my xOW had been caught saying the same things about my H, I would have thought she was a selfish b*tch and probably tried to break her nose and bust her lip again. It's like, I can empathize with you, because I know the hurt, anger, and betrayal you felt/feel. But at the same time, if I got wind the xOW had said anything like she didn't care what it did to my family because H didn't care what expenses she incurred during child birth and such, and that he was a grown man and fully aware he was the bio-dad, I would be ready to beat her down again. Somehow it seems different though because you are a BS as well.

nc4us,,,,, i am not sure i followed your post reply but let me explain. please understand that these comments are from me the H of his exow (my w).

xmom knew i was worried fh was falling into an a
with him

he knew that we were in counseling to try and repair our marriage

he encouraged her to keep the baby when i was asking her to abort with lines like "i'm so proud of you" and "all you have to do is ask me for money and i'll give it to you"

this was just a male ego thing for him trying to add another notch on hislove handle

now the d!(khead needs to be responsible for his actions. period. but all he is worried about is not this child but instead his wallet.

like i said he's a full grown idiot. he prepays for a hotel room so he can take a woman with 6 kids of her own to and he is to cheap or just plain to macho to place a .50 cent condom on the nightstand. fact is it was probably the macho thing of "i don't use those".

now i am simply giving him the oppurtunity to step up and prove one way or the other what kind, no i mean, IF he is the man he thinks he is.

Pops

If you put him under the trampoline, grass will grow too much and I dont know about you, but I hate moving that darn thing to mow grass.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was reading in the dr.s office and there was an article on divorce and ways people handle it and its effects on children, But The general consensus was for the couples to be friendly, share games the kids have and show the children you are going to get along and that they dont have to feel they need to pick, that they can have both parents any time they want. That is all OM and I try to do, but I will tell you it isnt easy and not all parties agree all the time.But my husband and my self believe we have to look at it this way in order for all the children to not have stress over this and be happy.

<small>[ December 10, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

mo5,,,, so nice of you to drop in. again i didn't mean any disrespect in referring to the way you have worked things out. you are all to be commended. i just simply was saying that peanut will have to have 2 b-days, xmas's, etc. we will not all sit around on july 4 and watch fireworks. they would probably go off about 1 in the afternoon. i went thru visitation with my older son and we switched off those days each year. there were however times that we all had to be present such as his football games, award ceremonies, graduation, etc. we were as you all civil and took care not to step on toes. except for exgf. she had big feet to match her mouth.

peanut has our last name and om has already brought that up to fh. she promptly told him to stick it in his ear. no way was her name changing. there is no name on the birth certificate and with his time and money he can persue that if he chooses.

as far as mowing the grass around the tramp ours is ground level. no frame. walk across the yard and right onto the tramp. i would however have to remove the cover and dig the hole a little deeper.

if your h feels as i do i have no idea how he will be able to work side by side with your exom. i could never do that. in fact fh's exom was sitting in his bus when i went to pick our s up at h.s. after his soccer game. it didn't bother me much at the time but it sure worked on me thru the night. i didn't say a word to him and when he saw me he left. but i was up all night asking myself why didn't i go over and tell what i think of him. i quess i have to chalk it up to better judgement.

i can only hope and imagine that most ws's feel as you do. not trying to make excuses for you but if i remember you a was spurned by a long list of lb's by your h including a's on his part. i have often thought that maybe it would have been easier for me had i fallen victim to some of the oppurtunities that have come along in my life. sort of well hell i quess she just evened the score. i have also wondered if that is why your h has been able to deal with your waywardness in the manor in which he has. i will appoligize now if i have mixed your circumstances with someone else and just accused him of something he is innocent of.

good to here from you again,, pops

mo5,,,, so nice of you to drop in. again i didn't mean any disrespect in referring to the way you have worked things out. you are all to be commended. i just simply was saying that peanut will have to have 2 b-days, xmas's, etc. we will not all sit around on july 4 and watch fireworks. they would probably go off about 1 in the afternoon. i went thru visitation with my older son and we switched off those days each year. there were however times that we all had to be present such as his football games, award ceremonies, graduation, etc. we were as you all civil and took care not to step on toes. except for exgf. she had big feet to match her mouth.

peanut has our last name and om has already brought that up to fh. she promptly told him to stick it in his ear. no way was her name changing. there is no name on the birth certificate and with his time and money he can persue that if he chooses.

as far as mowing the grass around the tramp ours is ground level. no frame. walk across the yard and right onto the tramp. i would however have to remove the cover and dig the hole a little deeper.

if your h feels as i do i have no idea how he will be able to work side by side with your exom. i could never do that. in fact fh's exom was sitting in his bus when i went to pick our s up at h.s. after his soccer game. it didn't bother me much at the time but it sure worked on me thru the night. i didn't say a word to him and when he saw me he left. but i was up all night asking myself why didn't i go over and tell what i think of him. i quess i have to chalk it up to better judgement.

i can only hope and imagine that most ws's feel as you do. not trying to make excuses for you but if i remember you a was spurned by a long list of lb's by your h including a's on his part. i have often thought that maybe it would have been easier for me had i fallen victim to some of the oppurtunities that have come along in my life. sort of well hell i quess she just evened the score. i have also wondered if that is why your h has been able to deal with your waywardness in the manor in which he has. i will appoligize now if i have mixed your circumstances with someone else and just accused him of something he is innocent of.

good to here from you again,, pops

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]But the wife is mad she has to come back by 8 or 9 that evening. she wants to just keep her till late christmas morning so she doesnt have to leave early.
Now I understand her wanting to stay with her daughter, thats cool, But My daughter deserves to wake up, in her home with her siblings to see that santa has come.

=^^= This is so incredibly reasonable of you...I don't understand her heartburn. She has to know that spending Christmas morning with her sibs and amidst the excitement of Christmas morning means everything to a child. It is such a magical time for children and your daughter needs to be home with you, your husband and the other kids. Juggling Christmas and holiday schedules and family events to everyone's satisfaction is tough.

and frankly I am very generous with visitation and his work schedule, I let them take her any day he is free and wants to do so, I dont call and ask, but if he ask I say sure.

=^^= I think I would point this out to her

But my husband and he will be working together in about three weeks, and in fact staying in the same house together for 5 weeks, [can not be good, makes me sick to think of it] Husband says he is ok with it, I tried to encourage him not to take the job.

=^^= Oh my God....

I will be having surgery soon and I know they will both help out as much as I need them to. I am not the kind of person who ask for help though, I will do for any one but dont like people to do for me. I probably wont take them up on much of that help.

=^^= I didn't know you were up for a surgery...I hope it is nothing serious. But please don't let pride stand in the way of offered help. Think of it as bread cast upon the water....just reaping what you have sown. If you have been out there helping others for years, let them give back to you some of what you have given.

when she goes to her fathers house, she has him, his wife and the dog, However because of there age they are not used to having kids around and dont have lots of stuff for small children.

=^^= Yawn...must be boring for her. I hope they take her out for rides and for walks. As she gets older, they can take her to Children's Theatre or someplace culturally enlightening. I do this with my five year old granddaughter because she can only take so much of watching her G.dad and me count the grey hair in his beard. (We don't even have a dog!)
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope your surgery is not serious and I wish you a wonderful and blessed Christmas season.

Catnip =^^=

pops

Your correct about my husband, and maybe thats why he is able to put things behind him, because he knows what he has put me through all these many years.
They will not work together , but just 5 weeks and then My h will travel out of town ever week to work, and om will work here in town where we live, so after the training is done, they will part ways, It is a better job than he has now, and the one he has now, is pretty good, so we will deal with it.
BAD thing is, NEW job, surgery , and moving to new house and remodeling all happen in the next three weeks.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [this is me losing my mind]]]

Catnip, I wont say any thing to her, she knows I am very generous with their schedule, she also knows I am very generous with things I send, I shouldnt have to tell her. She is just having a bad moment and sometimes it is a struggle to have to work with someone she hates[me] and I can understand that, I will only put her in line if she hurts my child or goes way over board, for now, it isnt my place, it is her husbands job as my daughters father to make her see what has to be done, he has informed her if we all go to court, we all lose including that baby. She had a birth day yesterday and all her kids forgot, infact I was the only one who sent something from my daughter... I am sure that was a slap in the face, I think it will just have to be ignored till it passes. She will come around I think she is having a difficult week and it is easy to send her anger to me. This too shall pass.

I would guess the fact that there are presents under my tree for their grandchildren and them from my daughter is a little weird, but hey it is all part of teaching our children love and acceptance.

Catnip I dont think it is boring there, I think they do a nice job entertaining her, and she might enjoy that quiet atmosphere here and there, My daughter associates his wife with shopping, haha, as soon as you say her name , thats what she says, shopping. so I guess they spend a lot of time doing that. My house is never quiet. Om is also really involved, He does all the baths , diaper changing,cooking and spends alot of time playing one on one, so it is good for her. They are pretty good about keeping things on the same schedule as I have. took them a while but they learned.
Om told me after a day and half with a two year old , they are both pretty tired , this has been quite an awakening for them both.

sugery is at a bad time, Not happy about it, I dont have time to take six weeks off, but will do what I need to do, got to stay around to take care of those babies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I will let them help some, I wont be allowed to drive and husband leaves out of town, the day I come home from the hospital, after being there 5 days. I am a little over whelmed, but will make it, I am going to have christmas done and house packed be fore surgery and then when I come home, I will come home to a new house, and figure the rest out later.
if you dont hear from me, I probably had a nervous breakdown.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />