What a shame! But yes, I'm really thinking hard about this. I don't think my husband ever came out of the fog, just changed tactics and changed women.

I am catching him on so many things right now. And I've heard people from his school and his job all saying the same thing, that I left him several months ago because I don't like the kids and that I won't give him sex and that I nag him constantly (hard to do if I'm not around I'd think) and that he flirts with anyone and has relationships with some. I have some facts and a lot of people (his friends) saying that I should toss him out on his ear.

I don't know that even that will get his attention since I think he expects it. In prior to us relationships he was always dumped so he thinks it will always happen. He already has low self-confidence, but he makes things worse by giving up and giving into flirting and who knows how much more.

Anyway, I am seriously thinking about this. Got two problems though. 1- Not sure that it will slap him into reality, but something's gotta give. 2- Another problem is that I really do not want to hurt the children. They have been through enough, and I know that they would be worse off with him and whatever girl he ends up staying with and he'd never let "his kids" stay with me. Not really sure what to do, but I am playing through the scenarios.

aimee,

It sounds like you're right that you're the current girl-who-dumped-him in his pattern...

My question is, is there anything you could do or say to him that might convince him its time to seek help for his destructive pattern?? Do you have any good counselors whom you could ask??

If not, at least give him one last warning (as in... if you cannot recognize this pattern and get help, for my own sanity I must...)

I'm so very sorry for you and for the kids. What a horrible position to be in!! ...with your wellplaced heartfelt thoughts for the kids--Dear God. I don't suppose you've legally adopted them? No legal rights?

Thank you for making me appreciate my H's willingness to seek help for his own destructiveness... I see similarities: the low self-esteem included. Have you tried a plan A yet? (Sorry I don't remember)

Prayer and angel wings,
J

Oh Amiee... I am so sorry you have found yourself in this position..

I do understand your feelings about this whole thing.
When we went through the "Wannabe" saga a few months ago, I was afraid I would be looking at another Plan B too... (the first one I didn't know that is what I was doing at the time)

The straw that broke the proverbial camel's back in our situation actually was me having that meltdown in front of him... I don't recommend it though... When he realized that this was causing me enough turmoil to cause me to lose it that much (and pass out to boot) he finally came around...

My H's fog was a little different than most... he felt he needed to be able to talk with anyone he wanted to, not realizing(until the meltdown) what it was actually doing to me.
A lot like your H... but without the "you are gonna leave anyway" mindset.

Hugs and Prayers for you Amiee...
Praying that you find what is best for YOU.

I hear you on your dilemma, but gosh, aren't there any grandparents who can step up to the plate while your husband figures out what he's going to do with his two kids???

I know it's a tough decision to desert the kids when their own parents are doing exactly that. It just seems like nothing else will shake your H into reality or help him deal with the consequences of his thoughtlessness?

If you stay, then you sort of enable him to keep going and mistreating you, lying, misrepresenting you to the world after all you have done to keep the marriage afloat??

Yes, we teach others how to treat us and your H has not been taught how to appreciate you in a way that you need to keep your end of the bargain up and caring for his children. He doesn't realize how badly his words are tearing his life down to the ground!

I think his extreme guilt (I could be wrong), but guilt might be making him feel like you have every right to hate what he has done to you--position he has put you in, so he goes around telling people that you hate the kids and you are going to leave. It's probably his biggest fear and instead of taking responsibility and turning inward to the marriage, he might feel like he can't ever fix it.

Little does he know, you loved him enough to make this commitment. He's very immature and you are SO mature... I don't know if you can stand for this--what he is doing--and preserve your due respect from him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Then there is your family. I can imagine that a part of you doesn't want them to be right, but so what. Plan B is supposed to be temporary to give the WS a jolt of what life is really like without you. I mean seriously? What the heck would he do if you just up'd and walked out today? WHAT? Does he even have a clue? Would any of the people HE has been whining to come to his rescue? DOUBT IT!

OTOH, if you reached out to your family, I'm quite sure they would help you with anything you need. You probably would have to be careful with how and what you told them tho because they might get upset if you took your H back. Maybe that is what you could research--how to tell them in such a way that would make them respect your decisions also...

Plan B is designed to put you in a better position to negotiate what you want from your WS and your relationship. No more flirting with OW. Period. No more affairs. No more lies. Individual Counseling and couple's counseling. Whatever you want. Plan B is not designed to make it easy on the WS, so you must be firm. Maybe leave and don't tell him where you have gone so he can't sweettalk you into agreeing to something you don't want.

Plan B doesn't mean you don't love his kids. It means that you are trying to preserve what little love you have left for your H!! He is lovebusting your love bank to an all-time low! Plan B is to get away from the scene so you CAN keep loving him & the kids!!! You would be moving to Plan B because you love the kids and they deserve to have a father who truly cares about his family more than pretending and creating some weird reality so he can deal with his guilt for potentially ruining so many lives.

Unfortunately he needs to keep the kids so he can feel what life with his children would be like totally without you. I think if you have faith in God, you can do this without feeling selfish or uncaring. Plan B IS because you care so much! You can't afford to have your love bank depleted. That would be a complete disaster!

<small>[ December 16, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Yesterday after church, my husband said well we're gonna eat lunch and then straighten up the house. I fixed lunch and gave it to the children. I fixed him a plate but it sat there because he was at the computer desk and on the internet. When it was nap time, I asked him to please get off and have some time with me. He continued. I asked again. I told him that this was our opportunity to be alone together and please give us that. He likes toy trains and he was looking at sites of them. He just wouldn't get off. I sat with him, I left the room, I did laundry, I got so frustrated. After two and a half hours, the kids got up. I let out a big sigh and he yells What? Why are you so mad all the time? Why do you accuse me of things all the time? What do you want? Well, I can't handle the yelling. I started to cry and that just makes it worse. He said Oh just forget it all you do is push me away I should just go. I got mad thinking about how many times he has been telling people that I have left, and I said so go then. And he says Come on kids, mommy doesn't want us, she thinks we're just around for her money anyway. I became infuriated.

I closed the room to where the kids were and said oh no, they are not the problem. He said no they're not the problem, you are. He pushed me aside and saw the girl crying and he says look you've hit my daughter with the door. I hadn't, she was upset because of the spat. I said no, I'm doing the best I can for these children and you should be too. He says oh really? these are my children, you're the one who thinks they'd be better with someone else, you're the one who thinks they come between us, you're the one who says they've ruined your life, I am their father and for me there are only two guarantees and that is them. At that point, I was sobbing pretty bad. I just said don't bring the kids into this. He went outside for a bit. Then came back and put the kids in their room and tried to talk to me. I was getting ready for evening church. He is really good about that, trying to fix the argument. He used to apologize and try to hold me whether it was his fault or mine. Not now. It was almost like he wanted to start arguing again.

He said what is your bottomline problem with me? I still hadn't told him that I knew all the things he's been saying and doing. And I said I want to see love from you and to know that you are committed to me and these kids. And he said oh you've got it wrong, it should be me and the kids showing commitment to you. I said no, I'm not worried about them, theirs is true love for both of us. They are fully committed to me and I am committed to them, I just want to see your commitment to us. Again, he tells me that these are his kids, they are blood, and that I am the outsider. (After what I've been through, it's that statement that hurts so badly.)

The phone rang. He told the person on the phone that the kids were driving me crazy and he was going to take them away while I went to church by myself and give me a break for awhile. That made me so mad that I threw a shoe at him. Not real productive, but it felt good. He got off the phone and started getting the kids ready to go. But when asked he told them that we were getting ready to go to church. And we did. At church we took the kids in and then he went back to the car and started to leave. But I stood at the church door waiting. He came back and we stood outside the whole time arguing quietly. He said something about harassing phone calls and I said oh you mean me calling that "wrong number". And he said yeah she called me and said that you'd better stop calling her. I don't believe that. Then he told me how I was vindictive and how I could make one phone call and keep his kids away, how I was acting crazy by accusing him all the time, and how I was pushing him away. I just said I'm not that way, I love you, and I'm trying to have a good peaceful realationship with you, I just want to know that you are committed too. He said well, there's no one else. I said I understand how you are very friendly and want someone to be fun with and who looks up to you, that it's very easy for you to make these (female) friends, but it's just not good for our relationship. It just went back and forth until church was over and we picked up the kids. We got nowhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My plan A has been pretty stinky. I feel like he provokes me too. I'm hurting and just don't know what to do. I feel that this pattern is going to kill our relationship, but I don't want that. I also don't want to hurt these children. They have been through so very much. (The mother still has rights, even though she has made no attempt at contacting us, so me adopting is not possible.)