We are now entering another hard stage in our messed up lives (which i do know I am the one who put us in this situation, that just seems to keep snowballing new problems) I have been contacted by the DA that I have a court date in March for the childsupport hearing. now as most of you know i never wanted to file in the first place, i felt it would have been best to keep om out of our lives completely so that we could repair our marriage. but pops gave me know choice if i wanted to stay in the marriage that this was what needed to be done, he wanted om to be responsible. now is my dilemma. pops is very angry when it comes to om, understandable, but, because we will have to deal with him, i would like it to be as civil as possible for graces sake. now pops thinks that i am protecting om not grace. i need to talk to someone that has been or is in this situation, is it wrong of me to go to the hearing by myself, now remember we are suppose to be seperated. so wouldnt it seem kind of weird if pops showed up, it would kind of send the message that we were still married...this isnt coming out right, i dont know how to explain. how do i go about this situation. pops says everything should go through him. i just cant see the two of them being civil and working things out for grace. i dont want the kind of relationship pops had with his ex and their son. it was awful, many court dates, many police calls, many tears from the son, alot of hurt. is it wrong of me to want to work things out with om so that grace wont be tugged in a battle.
please help me, i know not many of you care about the ow problems, which is me to most of you. but i really could use some helpful input
thank you .. full house

I just wanted to add, I know the relationship pops had with his sons mother is different than mine with om. his was a girlfriend who got pregnant before our marriage and mine of course was an affair. but all the time we were together and all the years in our marriage as his son grew up i never interfered with his dealings with his ex. sure i had my oppinions, but he dealt with her

I don't have experience where you are right now but I think you should present yourself as a unifed team, even if you are supposed to be seperated. Your choice of staying with pops has to be the number #1 priority when it comes to making him feel comfortable about any dealings with the OM. Hope someone in your shoes can help you out better.
Patty

FH,

I wish that I had some awsome advice for you, but I have no idea what you should do in this situation! I can see it from both perspectives, and see how each one has it's good sides and bad sides!

On the one hand, as you pointed out, you and Pops are supposed to be seperated, and if Pops shows up w/you and Grace, it may send the wrong signals to the courts and xOM!(in regards to the CS hearing that is)

On the other hand, I can see how Pops wants to show xOM your united front, and that you two are together, and xOM better not try to interfere again!

Like I said, I wish that I had some great advice for you, but I can only offer my continued support and prayers! Oh, one other thing, I know that you feel as if you should be considered the OW here, but you aren't, you are considered the WW, as I am and Butterfly Emerging is as well! You are working to restore and repair your M, not tear your's or someone elses down! You are looking for advice to make your M stronger, so, please, don't consider yourself the OW. I know that I don't feel that way, and, even though it took me a while, I do feel very accepted here!

Just my $.02. I wish that it was more, but all I can offer from my perspective.

Love,

Tigger

full house,

Policy of Joint Agreement for this. You need to reach an enthusiastic agreement on this. Pops didn't use this rule when he demanded that you go after child support, and you're both suffering (and losing love) over it.

Go back and revisit the plan. I normally suggest that the BS be the go-between in these cases (it's the "Normal" Harley policy, but if that's the case, Pops had got to be on boy-scout behavior. If he's trashing the OM, and making Grace miserable, the end result is going to be your loss of love for him and the destruction of your marriage. You two need to discuss this honestly and get on the same page, and then do a good job in execution.

FH,
I was kind of thinking about this myself. You see I am thinking about filing for CS to protect our childern and say we are seperate. However, when or if we get the CS order for OC I would like to be there. However, if we are suppose to be seperate then would the court think. Maybe, you can see if the judge ask that you are trying to work things out. And one of the conditions if it the marriage is going to work is that pops is the go between OM and you. That is not a lie.

You don't believe that pops can be civil to OM? I mean I got the feel that pops thinks he can. One more question did you guys file for a faux seperation? If so it shows that pops and you are living at different addresses?

Dawn

Fullhouse,
I was just wondering if you are working or not? And if not did they question where your income is coming from when you filed for child support?

Dawn

Fullhouse,
Pops did ask for this cs. You must, no matter what courts say, do this together for to do it any other way would be devastating to pops and a plus for om as pops sees things.

As far as pops asking for cs w/o policy of joint agreement...

Well as I remember you were doing little to comfort him and let him know "he" was the man you loved and wanted. You consistantly did things that curled his toes and made him think you were still w/om.

Forgive me fullhouse. Respectfully I hope you appear in court together no matter what. Who cares if you are seperated? Om doesn't care! Pops does.

LISTEN to the man...Pops...he deserves it..
love
Debi

Dear Full House

I've been on hiatus and away from the boards for a couple weeks, but I was lurking this morning and read your thread and wanted to respond.

First of all, you are absolutely accepted here because you want to save your marriage and work the MB principles. Never think we don't care about you or accept you because we do.

Secondly, Bipolar Bear and I had a faux divorce to save the equity in our house from being extorted from us by support and collections. When we go to court in NY, we will go together and I will be there with him as his best friend. We will explain that this seperation ended our marriage but not our history or our friendship or our love for each other. You can still present a united front.

Lastly, I am deeply concerned about the Pop's need for retribution at the expense of your recovery together and lack of POJA. I hope the two of you will call Steve Harley and work through this with him so you don't lose any love for each other. K is right, Full House...on every level.

Catnip =^^=

Fullhouse,

Just some questions to think about. No need to answer them here if you don't want. Maybe this might help you guys figure this out.

Was Pop viloent with his ex-girlfriend regarding his son? I am not sure why the police was involved in the exchanges. But is that why you are afraid of him to be the go between?

If he was civil towards his ex-girlfriend and tried his best even if his ex-girlfriend was not civil, then I don't understand why you think that he won't be civil toward ex-MM?

If he is looking out for Grace's best interest he is not going to be viloent toward him.

I remember reading that Pops saw ex-MM awhile back and he did not go up to him beat him up.

Anyway, I think you guys need a plan action on our to handle the situation ahead of time. Maybe, you guys need to sit down and talk this out it might help ease your mind. I mean give him sceneros that makes you afraid and see what he says he will do if ex-MM does something that pisses him off.

I sense that you are in a lot of pain. I was just wondering if you have someone to talk to about this? I do remember saying you guys can't effort a MC or an IC. So, I hope that you a minstry or someone close that is helping you through this.

Dawn

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</small>

maybe i can clear up some of the questions asked here. please be assured that by no means am i trying to make this a her vs. me thread.

as far as i am concerned i can't just act like this thing never happened. the product (and though i hate to admit she made grace without me, grace is the sweetest and cutest little peanut going, hands down) (sorry to all other proud parents , grandparents, etc). grace is real, the a was real, the dad is a working guy, so let him help provide for his d. again i am of the type person that doesn't like danceing around the elephant in the living room. let's meet this thing head. if we make it we make it. if we don't at least we did things open and honestly. i can show grace the same love whether om is involved or not. it doesn't change who she is or who i am and i know my heart.

as far as the violent stuff. i have not been the fighting type since early h.s. days. i have no desire to punch anyone in the nose. i did some pretty bad things at a young age and swore against that kind of thing early in my life. when our d's ex bf became very confrontational and was looking to start a fight i could have easily faught with him. but instaed i had the sheriff remove him from my property and stayed calm. when i confronted om it would have been very easy to beat him with the bat our son had in the car but what memories would that have left our son with.

my ex gf was different as it was her and her family that were threatening violence so instead of falling into that game i would request the sheriff to escort me during pick-ups and drop-offs. it was her that would hide him from me. i don't plan on hiding grace so he will miss his scheduled time with her. by the same note i don't plan on inviting him to any of her b-day parties at our house either. (sorry mo5 it's just not me).

weare not legally separated. i was going to divorce her, faux style. reason? because with her working and me having primary custody of our kids she would have to pay me small amout of cs. this would lower her net income, causing a greater difference in her and om's income meaning his cs would go up. and i wanted to make sure none of my income was considered when the numbers were crunched. anyway it didn't happen because i could see how much the thought of being divorced was hurting fh.

the cs hearing wil most likely be just her and om with the judge. his wife and myself may accompany them there but will most likely not be allowed in the room when they sit down with the judge or whoever. and as catnip said a seperation doesn't erase our whole history.

fh nouse is working but for a different district.

as far as me being the go between. i will not be antagonistic in any way. i will be strictly business. he will be addressed by his real name not my opinionated name of him. and conversations will be kept strictly about the facts.

and i do feel fh is more concerned with his reactions then my own. she has never in our 28 year relationship seen me become physically violent, verbally confrontational or try and provke a fist fight with anyone, ever. an example is that when i told her i wanted to call him and discuss things she said she didn't like the idea because she thought he would hang up on me.

we are not able to afford counseling at this time. we were going early on through my health insurance but i had to cancel the policy due to tight finances.

this is my question on poja. how does it work when you always seem to be on opposite sides of the fence. when she was 1st falling into her affair and we started mc it was her who quit. when i asked her not to allow herself to live the same life her mother did, it was her that went on to have the a. when we discussed adoption she choose to keep grace. Please don't jump all over me but having grace in the house has most definately lengthened our recovery. fh house decided. when i asked her not to breast feed, it was her choice to go ahead with it. so i have to ask how the poja works. is it that i just keep on bending over until what? i finally break?

these are my words and if fh doesn't agree she can let you know.

sorry for this being so long. hope it clears up some of the questions

Pops,
I think I understand now. Fullhouse is not worried about you becoming vilonet but ex-MM becoming viloent. And she just thinks that ex-MM does not want nothing to do with you. Well, how about his wife? I mean talking to her instead.

Oh yeah, the court thinks that you guys are seperated? Why is that? And by seperated do you mean they think that you are not living together in the same house? Just trying to get information that might help me in my situation.

Dawn

dawn,,,,, fh does not want me to talk to either ex mm or his w. she says that nothing good can come of it. this has bothered me from the start. i wanted to talk to om before they had pa but she said no. i think to this day it would have helped.

more laterm pops

Pops and FH,

Well, when you hear both sides of the story, it truly clears a lot of the confusion, but sometimes adds to it as well!

I believe that the POJA talk came up from FH's first post, on how she is feeling forced to seek CS. But, when you read your post, it only seems fair, as she has/had chosen to do things that you had asked her not to(not flaming you FH, just picking apart this situation). With the POJA, you should both agree to a course of action, and it seems as if that hasn't happened for either one of you from the beginning!

I do agree w/Pops, that you should seek CS in this situation, and I also don't think that Pops should be kept from speaking with the xMM or his W. FH, your statements that "nothing good will come of it" is what causes Pops to feel you are protecting xMM and not supporting Pops! That's how I would, and have viewed it in my own experience! If xMM hangs up, or gets vulgar, then that's what's going to happen, but you need to both be working together on this!

FH, just the fact that you are going to go to the CS hearing is a big step in that direction, but you have to work w/Pops, and listen to requests, and consider them! Not just shoot it down cause you don't like what you hear!

I know, we don't have ALL the info in your situation, but I believe that we have enough to see that you both need to work TOGETHER, and not against eachother, just cause you don't like what "might" happen! You may have made your bed, but who says that you can't change the sheets?!? You have a major opportunity here to show Pops how much you truly still love him and want your M to work! What I see may not be major fence sitting, but it is close to it, in that you are trying to appease two parties here, when it should be just the one!

Our situation has been so much easier, as xOM never even knew about the pregnancy, and so we decided to not even let him know, and therefore he is completely out of our lives! That is how BOTH Sailorman and I wanted it! But, I had left the decision on whether to keep Abbi or not up to him! Afterall, it would be more of a reminder to him than it would to me of what I did! Being a mother, you can love ANY child, but it takes someone special to be able to love the OC in this situation! It wasn't an easy decision, and it took me a very long time to get over the feelings of guilt every time I'd look at Abbi! I think what has really helped is that Sailorman is SO attentive to her, just like our other 2 children! He shows the same love for all 3, and that's what's helped me heal!

Anyway, Pops, as to your question of POJA, no, I don't think that you should keep bending till you break! You have done so much already, but you do need to try to work with FH on getting to the point where you both agree, just as she needs to do some bending too! It's supposed to be something that helps you work TOGETHER, not against eachother.

I am glad to see that you are both still working on your M, and that you both care enough to want it to work!

JMHO

Love,

Tigger

PS I hope that I didn't step on any or too many toes here, just trying to help if I can.

Pops,

I completely disagree with seeking child support and inviting the OM into your family (as Grace's biological father). But you know what? Who cares! What's important is that you and fh sit down and work this via the Policy of Joint Agreement, so that you have a mutually enthusiastic agreement in place. If not 'enthusiastic', the minimum you should be seeking is to not actively kill each other's love.

And in regards to the breast feeding, that was wrong too. Any time a spouse does something to hurt the other spouse---be in intentional or unintentional---it's a losing proposition for the marriage.

So, the two of you should sit down and make this work for you. Personally---I think your plan and attitude is fine, given the situation. But once again, it's not what I think that counts. It's what you and fullhouse feel that's of major importance.

Good luck, and God bless you. (My daughter is a "Grace" too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Hi FH,

I thought I would chime in here, because it appears that you may not recall or perhaps never knew of another reason Pops wanted CS. It was his age. It was to help protect Grace and your other children if he became disabled or Heave Forbid passed on. He will be in his late 60's when Grace hits 18.

It also doesn't sound as if your financial condition is all that great and you two do have other children to raise and educate.

Pops and I talked about these matters when he first came here and wanted to discuss the CS issues. Most of us, and certainly K, thought it would be best if there were no CS and just you two. I will admit I felt it best if Grace were put up for adoption. But what I feel is of no consequence as it should be. BUT the swing thing in MY thinking and perhaps Pops was the age issue and the financial stabilty of your WHOLE family as well as Grace's when she gets into her teens and he is in his 60's. It is a real issue and if you don't seek CS now, you may not get the help you may need much later.

So in your discussion about CS please factor in, that you situation is a little different because of Pops age. It is not ideal to have bio father involved in a rebuilding marriage, but sometimes that is the best one can do with the circumstances.

I do hope you two can reach an agreement that you both can live with happily.

God Bless,

JL

Pops, fullhouse,

I read your thread and just wanted to tell you as hard as it is, You too are making it, we all have bad days. I have mixed emotions on contact, I have found that om's wife is not emotionally able to handle things and wreaks havic and drama in our lives constantly. So much so that my husband and my self have decided maybe it would be better if they were not around. OM agrees with this as his wife and step daughter are a constant problem and we dont want our daughter exposed to such craziness.

There is a part of me that says, the idiot came out in the open, and became part of her life so I cant just let him walk away from her, because what are we doing to our little angel. But then again, she has a mommy and a daddy right here who love her unconditionally and we dont have the drama going on in our lives that they do. OK so for us no contact will be a blessing, but am I hurting my daughter by only thinking of my self. I do know I odnt want her to learn from this family, they are a little over the line when it comes to disfunctional.

What to do.. I am not sure, om and my husband are working closely together now, it is going well, om and I are not speaking, at least I am not responding, if he pages me, I give to my husband and he calls, kinda throws him a bit, but he stopped paging. He did not pay child support this month, I told him to keep his money and leave me a lone while I heal from surgery. I dont want drama in my life right now and they have tons of it.

My daughter is 2 , she will soon forget about him, But is it fair to her, I dont know, not sure Om has displayed all the old things I new were there before, I still think you should think about contact and what it would do to grace, if I new the emotional stress of dealing with a woman so crazy, I would have never ever let him have contact, I think I based things on the fact that I had been this mans friend for so many years that he and I could make this work, but When he would come to me and make an arrangement , he apparently would never tell his wife the truth and then he would have to break promises to me or his wife, and it all came crashing down on him, I dont have those problems, because I tell my husband whats going on and therefore eliminate the need to remember secrets or lies and there fore eliminate stress.

when the phone rings, angel ask if it is om, He says he doesnt want her to see him or hear his voice, he will just trust me to take care of her for him,
only problem with all this, is ever other week, these people change their mind, because I wouldnt do with out daughter christmas, so his wife wouldnt have to return early, she pitched a fit and demanded he take us to court, so that way they could have her every other weekend, even if she was sick, wouldnt matter, you see it wasnt about angel, it was about her feelings for me,
I said ok, lets go to court, only reason I had not was because he begged me not to.
I filled out all the paper work, told him this was the first weekend, he may have her over night, and he said, but I am going out of town? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> then when he read the papaer work, he panicked and asked if we could make another arrangement.. my husband says put up or shut up, we are tired. now this week, he has decided court would be a bad idea so maybe he should walk away,
what he doesnt realise is he had it made before, I for one bent over backwards to accomadate them,


sorry to bore every one, but you see all the drama caused by people who dont know what the heck they want, I pray you think long and hard before you invite all that into graces life, I for one wish I did not do that to my sweet baby.
I tried so hard to be friendly and accomadating to his and his wifes schedule , their money, and their grown children. However, it is not a success. I still believe it can be done, But I sure dont have a clue how this one will play out, I will continue to do what I think is best for my daughter, I say my daughter.. because I am the one constant in her life that will not change my mind, I am her mom and will always be, and have no regrets, I would give all the money I have my home, my life, for my children and she is no different, dont even have to think about it.. thats the real difference in love and pretending to be a parent.. something om and his wife would never ever be able to have for her.. but that my husband and my self do have.

disclamier;;;;;;

this is only about me and the people in my life, no one else. I am not saying bs's are crazy, I have been one many times, I am saying the woman I have to deal with as om's wife has flipped her wig and she is not healthy for my daughter.

mo5,,,, i have often wondered how things were going with your family. sorry to here that turmoil has crept into your lives.

from what you discribe it sounds like your exom w and sd were involved because they wanted something in return for their money. i have to say that this (mho) never works.

i believe that for visitation to work in these situations it takes 4 extodinary people who can all honestly look after the best interest of the child. all circumstances are different but i feel in our case fh needs to take the approach that exom needs to take some responsibility for his actions (cs) and at the same prove that he is truly interested in grace's well being and not add turmoil to her life by tearing her between 2 families. grace will be raised in a loving home with a mom and dad that love her.

the problem in my mind with c's from a's and both parents and their spouses involved is not when the child is young but rather when they grow older. it's easy when they are small as they are still innocent of the evils of the world. when they are older and can understand all the emotions that get caught with a's. no matter how lovingly they were raised there will be some resentments somewhere. i am speaking from my experiences with my oldest son. he was not concieved from an a but had resentments because i was not there 100% of the time for him in HIS thinking. it took some time but things have smoothed out quite well now but i can still see some anxiety when it comes to holidays and special occassions. and his mother and me have both put our differences far behind.

i know i don't know all the exact details of your relationship with your om but have always thought your 2 families were to close. i think that for visitation to be successfull it has to be conducted with a relaxed business type attitude.
pleasent but not to chummy.

if your om decided not to be involved anymore then your d will be fine. she is still young enough that in a matter of 2-4 months she will forget him. i would bet that no matter how it has been explained to her she sees him as more of an uncle or close family friend anyway. in her mind your h and you are mom and dad. you are the ones that are there day and night for her. when she cries out in the night and when she looks around while playing in your living room and realizes she is alone and calls for you. mom and dad are the ones that come running from the kitchen. it's the little things that make the 2 of you who you are for her as it will be for grace and us.

hoping you find some peace in all this, pops

pops,
I thik om and I were and are too close, we know each other too well, and while we were able to compromise and agree on many things, his wife was not able to handle it, I think in part because he didnt always tell her the truth. it caught up to him.
I dont know if he will walk away, but his last statement to me, was he should walk away, but he and I could repair what we had all those years... That told me all I needed to know, he hasnt been here because of the baby, he has been here to keep me around. and I have fallen hook line and sinker.. his wife doesnt really want the baby in her life, she just did what she knew he expected of her, WE have such different veiws and he must know me well, because he made it sound as if his veiws on raising her were the same, however his wife and step daughter are different, they see it as a way to punish me, it isnt about love to them, she is just a pawn in a game. I know she will forget, but I had so hoped to keep the drama out of her life and make it a happy peaceful one, My husband and I will of course continue in the same role, he is her daddy after all, and loves her unconditionally. maybe we are giveing her that peace I want for her so much after all.

Things are pretty quiet, I am recovering from major surgery, cant drive , that will drive me bonkers. I miss hubby since he is out of town, and cringe that he spends 12 hours a day in the same room with om, He is handeling it well, but I am sure looking forward to om being through and comming back this way.
he has however been very sweet and more helpful than normal, that I like.

I think husband would welcome om signing his rights away, But part of him and me too think he should be responsible, but not at the expense of my daughter..

I know your doing what you need to do, I just hope it turns out peaceful for you.

Mom of Five, I am surprised and yet not to hear of your latest developments.

It doesn't surprise me, however, that your situation is not going well. I think it is very hard for all the involved parties to put aside their pain for the sake of one individual, the child. It just is too darn hard.

Many OW believe the BS will do harm to child, or at the least say something nasty about the OW. I knoe I despise the OW in my case, and never will feel different about her. She ruined much in my life, for her needs, as did my H.Why would I want to intermingle my family in any shape or form with hers?

I think for your daughter's sake, the less drama, the better. Your H and you are her parents, leave it at that. I think you are making the wise decision to let MM go his separate ways. It obviously is paining all of you.