I posted this question on my regular board and have gotten mixed reviews. Interested in hearing other opinions, esp the BWs.

FMM's family is upset that he has chosen to undergo steilization. They think I might have overly influenced his decision. Now keep in mind his family and I get along great. However, they feel if we marry and later D that he will still be young enough to have other children. He is choosing to do this. I am not making him, but I have told him I will not M him unless he does it. I know, a catch 22. I doubt he will have an EMR on me, but if so I at least want to prevent an OC from being conceived. He is comfortable w/ the surgery as he already has 2 kids.

I will add the following because the fact that I had a tubal in 93 seemed to alter people's oponins

Yes trust is an issue for us, always will be. However, as I said I truly believe MM will not cheat on me - call me naive.

However, maybe my reading at MB has spooked me, but there are many women there posting who also never anticipated the fact that their mate may cheat and now they are forced to deal w/ the aftermath of OC and CS.

MM and I have been very open w/ each other lately - esp since the discovery of my conversations w/ MM #2 came out. That was something I never intended to pursue, yet I did. I now regret it immensly. People make mistakes. MM and I have talked a lot since his D about our M expectations. He wanted to get married immediatly. I wanted to wait. Neither of us wants to ever go through a divorce once we are married. This will be our second marriage and last - we hope.

MM asked me what the one thing would be that would make me want to D him. I stated an OC. Keep in mind I had my 15-year-old at a very early age, my youngest is nine. I had to struggle to put myself through college etc. 31 and we are just buying our first house a few months ago. MM already has 2 kids - 1 boy, 1 girl. We already pay CS. As his youngest is not even 2 we have atleast 16-20 more years of CS to pay as well as all the incidentals etc.

Don't get me wrong I in no way resent the fact that he has to support his kids. I would have it no other way and actually set up the CS for his now XW. After all I get CS. And we both work hard. It is just now we see an end in sight. Why take a chance to jeopardize that?

Him having the procedure will at least ensure that we will never have to pay out CS for an OC or have to deal w/ an OW in regards to mutual off spring. As I stated I truly do not believe he will cheat. And if he did I would hope he would at least have the decency to wear a condom and protect me from STDS. But,if he did cheat w/out a condom and was not sterilized pregnancy could be the result in addition to STD.

I am not making him do this.

He is a great father and feels badly that he is not able to be there for his son on a daily basis. He says even if we were to break up the week after the procedure he would not regret it as he really does not want to father anymore children.

As far as the comment about my temptation for MM #2 is concerned it has faded. Trust me this is a shock to me. One noght last week MM came home and told me about the fact that MM #2 came to his work area and was boasting to another friend of his and carrying on about the fact that he "won". His boss. I just lost all respect for MM #2 right then and there. Have had ample opportunity to talk to him but no desire. I deleted several emails unopened and have changed our phone number. It really hurt me that MM was treated that way. It just really touched me that here is this man that I love and that loves me going to work each night to provide for us and he has to put up with that. And knowing it was my fault makes it even worse.

Is there anyone that understands my reasons? My daughter. the light of my life, is the result of a pregnancy on the first encounter. It happens. I just will not risk marrying someone that may get someone else P in the future. Once our kids are of age I want us to be able to enjoy out lives and our money - not having to battle w/ anyone else over an OC.

I stated on another thread about how his son's mother acted like a crazy when she was served the papers - in front of their son. MM actually had a tear or two fall later. He said he didn't want son confused etc about what was going on. Then to come home and have a message on the machine from son asking "Daddy why are you trying to throw mama in jail?" Ugh!!! He called his son the next day and tried to explain what was going on in age appropriate terms and in an unbiassed manner. Yet, I am still angry at her for even involving a child in adult business.

Am I wrong? Thoughts, opinions, and similiar experiences appreciated. tew

<small>[ January 29, 2003, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: tewjtm ]</small>

Hi tew,
I think that probably the reason that nobody has answered this post is that the life you are leading with MM is sort of everybody's worst nightmare - I mean really it is. I have read enough of your postings to know that you probably didn't mean it to hurt or offend - and just about everything you have said so far has been polite and kind. So I am pretty confident that you didn't mean anything negative, and it is a topic of some interest to me right now - sterilization, that is.

Actually this struck a bit of a nerve in me. I am not sure if you know much about my story, but my former husband had an oc during our marriage, and we recently divorced (how's that for making a long story short! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I am now dating a very wonderful guy - first relationship since the divorce, and although it should be a rebound sort of thing, it certainly does not feel like one. I think that I may want to marry this guy some day. He is warm and funny and kind and considerate. We have many common interests (he is an attorney - go figure) and I enjoy spending time with him more than I have ever enjoyed anybody else's company. I obviously have a lot of trust issues to work out before getting married again - and since I have 2 1/2 years of law school left to complete, that certainly gives me plenty of time to see if this sinks or swims. But I am also thinking that I don't know if I want to ever marry somebody with the ability to reproduce. I have had my tubes tied too (four children of my own - all boys - in some countries, I would be a goddess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) And my boyfriend has two daughters from a previous marriage. I don't think either of us will want more children, seeing as how we have a brady bunch between the two of us, although in more romantic moments we have toyed with the idea of getting my tubal reversed, I don't think between my career and his we ever will. But he still has the ability to...uh....make babies, and I can't fathom the idea of ever being exposed to a situation in which an oc could occur. How sick is it that I am considering telling him - if ever he pops the question 3 years from now - sure, I will marry you but please have a vasectomy first. I think about that all the time. It is by far my biggest fear about marriage - hell, it is my biggest fear about becoming serious with somebody, even if you take marriage out of the picture. I don't know exactly what point I am making here except to say that the oc situation had a profound impact on my view of life, and in some ways that turned out to be for the better, but in other ways, I don't know if I'll ever be normal again.

that's all.
-cd

cd,
Hi tew,
I think that probably the reason that nobody has answered this post is that the life you are leading with MM is sort of everybody's worst nightmare - I mean really it is. I have read enough of your postings to know that you probably didn't mean it to hurt or offend - and just about everything you have said so far has been polite and kind. So I am pretty confident that you didn't mean anything negative, and it is a topic of some interest to me right now - sterilization, that is.

Thanks. I am glad someone realizes my intentions. I have been comung here for a while now (had other screen name before). I use this site to gain insight, esp from the WS as I naturally want to have a good a relationship as possible w/ FMM.

Actually this struck a bit of a nerve in me. I am not sure if you know much about my story, but my former husband had an oc during our marriage, and we recently divorced (how's that for making a long story short! ) I am now dating a very wonderful guy - first relationship since the divorce, and although it should be a rebound sort of thing, it certainly does not feel like one. I think that I may want to marry this guy some day. He is warm and funny and kind and considerate. We have many common interests (he is an attorney - go figure) and I enjoy spending time with him more than I have ever enjoyed anybody else's company. I obviously have a lot of trust issues to work out before getting married again - and since I have 2 1/2 years of law school left to complete, that certainly gives me plenty of time to see if this sinks or swims. But I am also thinking that I don't know if I want to ever marry somebody with the ability to reproduce. I have had my tubes tied too (four children of my own - all boys - in some countries, I would be a goddess ) And my boyfriend has two daughters from a previous marriage. I don't think either of us will want more children, seeing as how we have a brady bunch between the two of us, although in more romantic moments we have toyed with the idea of getting my tubal reversed, I don't think between my career and his we ever will. But he still has the ability to...uh....make babies, and I can't fathom the idea of ever being exposed to a situation in which an oc could occur. How sick is it that I am considering telling him - if ever he pops the question 3 years from now - sure, I will marry you but please have a vasectomy first. I think about that all the time. It is by far my biggest fear about marriage - hell, it is my biggest fear about becoming serious with somebody, even if you take marriage out of the picture. I don't know exactly what point I am making here except to say that the oc situation had a profound impact on my view of life, and in some ways that turned out to be for the better, but in other ways, I don't know if I'll ever be normal again.

I am glad that you have found someone to share in your life that you are so compatible with. You are also living my dream. I too aspire to be an atty. How old are your boys? I decided to wait until I get my D out on her own to attend. I was accepted at Mercer - never could afford it though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I admire your strength in being able to balance it all.

I can understand the issues of trust I think that will remain a constant w/ FMM and me. I posted this here because on my regular board everyone was amazed that I would consider this option - his sterilization. Most were not in favor. Even though I do not believe he will cheat on me, I know it happens. After all I am sure many of the BS here dealing w/ OC can attest to that. I have even noticed a handful of stories where the MM had more than 1 OC - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

After all the years of struggle to raise my kids I see a light at the end of the tunnel. I believe I could be a practicing atty before i am 41. If I marry him I don't want the issue of an OC to ever surface.

Besides, I have 3 and he has 2 (1 boy, 1 girl). This is enough. On my board everyone kept insisting I was "making" him do this as a control and trust issue. They ignored my comment that he states he wants to do this too. He says he already has 2 kids he can not be w/ everyday and it pains him.

We had the appt this week. Counseled w/ the doc etc. After all the negative comments on the other forum I asked him to at least wait 1 additional month to be sure. Proceedure is on the schedule in early March. If he doesn't go through w/ the surgery I will not marry him. However, I told him I changed my mind and would M him eithet way. This will alleviate any pressure I hope.

Have you broached the idea wih him at all? Will you marry him if he will not have the surgery?

Again I think it is great that you share your wisdom with others on this board. By the way did you catch my thread about the interesting note on CS on Pregnancy/Child? If not, check it out. tew

Hello,

I do think about this from time to time because my H wanted to get fix before the A happened and I was reluctanted because I wanted another baby. Then I got pregnant and he was upset and wanted to get fix, but I was at risk to miscarry. Then a month later he had an A and now a possible of OC. I keep thinking if only he got fix first then we would not be in this mess. Of course, then we would not have our son. I do wish sometimes that he did get fix esepcially the month before the A he was assistant about getting fix. I think if he would have called and made the arranagements then I would have agreed to it. He did get fix a little to late though. I finally called and made an appointment for him.

Dawn

tewjtm,

I didn't really know what to say to you. But, in light of cd's post I sort of felt compelled to respond. First, I am a male and I am NOT in your situations. But, your first post sort of made me laugh. Even your last did to.

It said to me" I don't want to pressure him, but if he wants to marry me he will VOLUNTARILY GET STERILIZED or no me." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Now you have backed off and said you would marry him anyway.

Now if he felt that this was something he wanted to do for himself before getting into a new serious relationship, then why are you needing to make ultimatums to him. If it is not really something he felt strongly about, then I think this needs to be explored abit.

It seems to me if I came on this site and said: "I feel for this woman, I have enough kids and I expect her to get her tubes tied (sounds much more polite than get sterilized doesn't it?) before we marry." I would get my head handed to me. Why?

Because I would be demanding that this woman do something to her body that she didn't want to do. And we all know that a woman's body is a "temple." right?

The response would be even stronger if I was setting as a condition of our relationship that she abort a child.

Frankly, from where I sit I would be just as appalled. I guess my point is that someone wanting the husband to be to be sterilized for fear of something he might or might not do in the future that might or might not lead to a pregnancy in the future seems rather incredible.

I can see a discussion if the woman doesn't want anymore children and is fertile because they ARE going to have sexual relations. But, to make this a condition of marriage because HE might in the future cheat and that might lead to an OC seems to push my envelop a long way.

I more likely scenario is that you and he might divorce and he might meet a woman with whom he wanted more children. I realize that that scenario doesn't help you, but as a male it is a possibility.

I guess my point is that "requiring someone get sterilized as a condition of marriage" bothers me. It sort of reminds me of China(one child only) and other countries where individual freedom and responsibility are not valued. I don't know how to explain this, but this notion bothers me at a deep level. I wonder if you H to be won't feel some resentment, even if he never has or had any intentions of fathering another child.

On a practical side, I suppose it makes sense. But, if you read around here, you will realize OC or not and affair really does hurt people deeply and surely can end a marriage. So are you really protected???

I hope something I said is of use to you.

JL

Just,
Did you fail to notice where I stated he has 2 kids and does not want to father anymore??? We have discussed this. Yes, affairs happem. However, I am sure I would be hurt regardless but at least this way we would not have to pay monies for another child. Look at some of the BS that post here. Many are suffering financial hardships due to this very issue.

Dawn,
Hindsight is always 20/20. Good luck to you and your H. tew

Dawn,

I am fully aware of what you said about him. But, I responded based on your post and CD. I do have a question and this also led to my posting. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not making him, but I have told him I will not M him unless he does it. I know, a catch 22. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, if he has all of the children he wants, and he has decided to be sterilized, then why are you making statements such as I just quoted? You realize that not marrying him UNLESS he did this WAS making him right? I think so as you said later that you removed that from the table. Sort of like a lawyer saying something inappropriate before the jury and the judge instructing the jury to disregard the comment. It doesn't happen.

But, my real point is why are you inquiring, if this is something HE wants to do? Are you asking in essence is it right for a girl friend to DEMAND that her BF get sterilized? If so the answer is NO. Are you asking is it alright for a W to DEMAND that an H get sterilized? The answer is NO.

Are you asking if it is alright for both of you to be sterile? THe answer is YES. Is it anyone elses business? My answer would be NO.

I didn't respond at first because I didn't see the purpose of your questions. I do see the purpose of CD's thoughts hence my response to both of you.

I am still confused by your post. Sorry.

JL

Tew,
I hope you decide to go through with law school someday. It is very rigorous, but also very rewarding. I just turned 30, and my boys are 10, 5, 3, and 2. I should have probably waited until a more stable time in my life to start school, but I threw caution to the wind and left behind practically everything I own to run down this dream. It is the scariest thing I have ever done, but also the most exhilerating.

As to the subject at hand: We have discussed marriage as a "way in the distant future" idea, much like a lot of new lovers do. There is little doubt in my mind that he wants to marry me someday, and most of the time I am so carried away by the thrill of romance that I would probably jump at the idea and marry him tomorrow. But I can't get married again until after law school, due to the fact that it would totally blow my student financial aid, and also due to the fact that I really have a lot of demons to tangle with before I make a serious committment to anybody. Also, if I get married again, I want to have acheived at least enough that I am self-sufficient and can support myself and my children by myself - a carry over from the days of starving due to the child support nightmare.

Would I marry him if he didn't get sterilized? I don't know. The kicker is that I can't imagine ever bringing up the subject. It almost seems as if it would insult his committment to me to say, "please get fixed so that if you ever DO fool around, you won't make the dumba$$ mistake my ex made." On the other hand, I don't know that I will ever be able to expose myself to that situation again. I know what you mean about the catch-22, because that is how I feel overall. I want to trust - I want to enjoy the heart-pounding knees-knocking passion of a truly deep and spiritual love, but I am so scarred from my past experiences that I don't know if I will ever want to be more than a long-term girlfriend to anybody. I know that I am very very early in this game, and that the ink on my divorce is barely dry, but it is hard not to think about what the future might bring, and to try to determine how I will play the cards I am dealt along the way. But I am sorely tempted to stay in this holding pattern forever.

Additionally, my boyfriend (feels funny to say "boyfriend/girlfriend when I am 30 and he is 34!) is also divorced and has been very candid and honest about his past infidelity during his marriage. Someone that I feel is very wise and intelligent told me that the honesty from him is what I should focus on - that the fact that he cheated before does not necessarily mean that he will cheat on me. That he may have (and certainly seems to have) learned from past errors, and that sometimes when a guy finds his soulmate, that can blind the wandering eye. I don't know. In a perfect world, we will have both learned the hard way what it takes to make a relationship work, and will reap the benefits of those hard-won lessons with each other.

I guess for now I will just proceed with caution. I don't know what else to do. I am so afraid that I will never be able to trust again - and that is the true subject of this thread, isn't it? The ability or lack thereof to trust another human being with all of your heart.
-cd