I don't feel it is my place to ask this on the other board so I was hoping you would answer this for me. Obviously I'm not talking about you specifically, but OW in general. And I know all OW are different just like all BS are different. I don't want this thread to get into a flame war I'm just curious about these questions
Why is it when a MM cheats on his wife the OW feels it is OK because his needs are not being met at home... blah blah blah (you fill in the blanks.)
But when the MM cheats on the OW he is a slimeball.
Why do OW feel their relationship with MM is so much more sacred than his relationship with his wife ?
Why do they never say , well he must be cheating on me because I didn't meet his needs either ?

jtigger

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

Hi Jtigger
Oooo, good questions! Interesting topic for discussion and doesn't seem inflammatory, IMO... I've got some thoughts, but since your thread is addressed to Joshmom, I'll hold my breath and see how she answers...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>I don't feel it is my place to ask this on the other board so I was hoping you would answer this for me. Obviously I'm not talking about you specifically, but OW in general. And I know all OW are different just like all BS are different. I don't want this thread to get into a flame war I'm just curious about these questions
Why is it when a MM cheats on his wife the OW feels it is OK because his needs are not being met at home... blah blah blah (you fill in the blanks.)
But when the MM cheats on the OW he is a slimeball.
Why do OW feel their relationship with MM is so much more sacred than his relationship with his wife ?
Why do they never say , well he must be cheating on me because I didn't meet his needs either ?

jtigger</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> yanno... I'm not sure! Personally, I think that cheating on his W was NOT OK (hindsight is 20/20?) I have always felt that if you want to see someone else you get divorced first. Of course when I was involved, that went out the window. I don't think that I actually sat and thought about that aspect of it at all, because he was with me so much it was easy to forget he was married (and before anyone flames - this was over almost 6 years ago). I think (key word there that this is only what I think - not what I know) that the OW tends to do that - forget about the W, put herself first, and how dare he cheat on HER? I told xMM that he'd have to race me for the phone if I caught him cheating again - but not on me, his W - because she'd been through enough with his crap. I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but hopefully it helped a little? And as a side note, BTDT - I love your quote - I copied it for my mother's anniversary post/thingie in the newspaper. But I "got it" from you here. Thanks.

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>

As an other woman, I never thought it was ok that MM was cheating on his W. When it first started I was very curious as to what HIS problem was that he felt the need to cheat. I never thought it was because his needs weren't being met. I always felt if he wanted to break his vows there must be something wrong with him- not her. Even if a marriage is breaking up, usually it is the result of both parties. I contemplated other reasons, like he just didn't really want to settle down and realized after the fact, maybe he was a sex addict, maybe it served his ego to have his cake and eat it too, etc.

That being said, I think as OW we still hope deep down inside that he is seeing us because he was really into us as an individual and had strong feelings he couldn't overcome, that there was some emotional connection. Usually because we end up falling for this guy. But if he cheats with other women or does it as a pattern, it means that he is just using women for the sex or an ego boost and that means we were used, too. If feelings developed during the EMA, that hurts.

I also think that cheating and lieing with multiple partners takes it to a different level.

Everyone makes mistakes. There are a million reasons for EMAs that don't justify them, but make them understandable as human weakness and fallibility. Maybe he falls in love with someone else and doesn't know how to handle it or can't decide who he really wants to be with. Maybe he is just in a midlife crisis. Maybe the marriage really is ending and it's just complicated by children and financial issues so that it continues when it shouldn't. The list goes on and on. But if a man is married and then sleeps around with numerous women, he is a slimeball. There is no understanding or compassion IMO for that. Same as if he was single and sleeping around and lieing about it.

JMHO

Joshmom & Lostone,
Thank you both for responding. I hear what you are both saying but I still don't understand.
But thats OK. I think I tend to over analyze things and the answers you both give are too simple for my brain to grab hold to. I think I want it to be more complicated than it is.
To me, as a BS, it doesn't matter if he cheats once or a hundred times. The damage is done. I don't understand the concept of once may be OK but more than that is wrong.
BTDT, I really want to hear your input.

jtigger

Well well...

Okay, here are my thoughts, nothing makes cheating right under any circumstance, and when the WS keeps on cheating and OPs end up getting their feelings hurt in the process, well I don't see how come that is a big surprise to the OP? Especially if the OP knew the WS was someone's spouse to begin with...

If the OP didn't know the WS was married, then I can see how they would say "what a slimeball." But if the OP knows the WS is married, and they decide to be involved with the WS anyway, they are just as guilty of what they are accusing the WS of. I could be wrong, because we all like to believe we are basically good people. However, my philosophy is that if you tell a lie then that kind of automatically makes you a liar. If you steal, that makes you a thief. Can a person tell a lie and not be considered a liar? I guess we could find all kinds of ways to justify our actions, but they won't really hold water.

I'm not saying that sin dooms a person forever, and that's not even for me to judge. I'm just saying that bad choices to have affairs set certain consequences in motion, and lives are destroyed in the process...

I don't think it should be a big surprise to an OP when a WS continues cheating with several other people. There is such a thing as a serial cheater or a sex addict.

I think that the "needs" of a person with a sex addiction can never be met by anyone because that kind of need is impossible to satisfy.

I'm not an expert, complex situations bring out the best and worst of us, no one is immune to temptation, we just have to keep doing our best to affair-proof our marriages and never get complacent. The danger of complacency is becoming unaware of any danger. We have to be prayerful over our marriages and keep our marriages sacred by depositing into our spouses love banks what no outsiders could ever contribute. That's why most WS's come back home. Most of the time, they come back home. There's no place like home.

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Jtigger- I think I see your point, if someone cheats and lies at all they are a slimeball- period. I used to always think that way. Then when the affair began I no longer believed it was that black and white. I guess that is what I was trying to explain.

The nature and circumstances of the affair do matter, don't they? Isn't that important in whether or not the BS can find understanding and forgiveness to save the marriage? The same for the OW- if there is some explanation or reason that the OW can find understanding in as to why the MM is cheating on the wife, it allows for her to look past the sin of it and still find love or desire in their heart for this man, despite his flaws.

Still, if he cheats again or with numerous partners it tells a more obvious tale- that it is not something remotely understandable or forgiveable, but driven purely by the need for self gratification. It becomes not an act of a confused, troubled, lost or weak man, but clearly of a man who is manipulating others out of selfishness just to fulfill his sexual needs. Breaking marriage vows for those reasons makes me feel the person is lacking in conscience somehow, and truly only has the ability to love himself, not the BS or the OW. How do you fix that? You can't give someone a conscience or change their true nature. It's a horrible awakening to find out the person you loved has a heart like that. For either party.

This has been a painful learning experience for me, too. Not the least of which is trying to understand my own ability to participate in the affair.

I also don't understand how he looked her in the eye everyday knowing what he did, I guess that speaks fo itself. So in that respect I understand that betrayal is betrayal from the BS viewpoint. Maybe that's it! It's like the OW knows about his relationship with the wife and accepts it, so it's more like an open relationship from their end. When he cheats on the OW, she feels the betrayal the wife felt- because he lied to her and did it behind her back without her knowledge or approval.

This is what made me realize how awful what he did to the wife was. And it was only selfishness on my end that allowed me to participate in it. I wanted what I wanted, even though it was wrong. Wrong for my life, too, I might add.

***because he lied to her and did it behind her back without her knowledge or approval.***

But this is EXACTLY my point. The OW thought it was fine that he was doing it to his wife. She ( the OW) took an active role in the deception.
Why is it not OK when he does the same to her ?
Why are most OW so arrogant that they feel they are above being betrayed ?

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

I don't think it's arrogance, just that the OW was foolishly hoping for a different outcome. I think they hope that either the MM will leave the marriage for them, or that at least what he shares with the OW holds some kind of meaning to him that he wouldn't just cheat with anyone for the sake of getting laid.

It really isn't ok for him to cheat with the wife. I don't think many OW feel that way. I think a lot of OW are bothered by his actions. Which is why most of them are told by MM that the marriage is unhappy or their needs aren't being met. Not just to justify it in their own minds- but to redeem themselves in the eyes of the OW. Most MM try to convince the OW that this is a unique occurance- that he was overwhelmingly drawn to her or really is in love. I guess the OW is sometimes blinded by her feelings and desire for the MM and still hopes he won't do it again- to her or the wife. Because even putting her own feelings about it aside, there is no excuse he can offer to justify his actions for cheating repeatedly.

interesting - here's another...

Why is MM now a jerk...only since he decided he wants to end A and work things out with his wife?

how abiut this scenrio. ws is on his best behavior and only showing their best side to op. at the same time they are most likely portraying a marriage partner that is cold and calous to their own feelings. op starts to believe that divorce is emmanent and allows (unrealizingly) their feelings to grow. then bam!!! next thing you know they are emotionally attached. when the newness of the affair wears off, ws starts to show their real colors and op becomes hurt and upset.

Butterfly wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> interesting - here's another...

Why is MM now a jerk...only since he decided he wants to end A and work things out with his wife? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Naaaaaaaaaahhh, they are only jerks if they create an unwanted OC with OW and then decide to go No Contact.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Either way, this has proved to be an interesting thread.

Twiisty
(Married to a jerk and loving every minute)

I too am married to a 'jerk'...happily married and still in love..what a fool I am...

"I don't want this thread to get into a flame war I'm just curious about these questions"- JTigger

I don't think the comments by Twisty were what JTigger had in mind. Bitterness towards someone that is only trying to help and sort out her own confusion as well is uncalled for. I was simply trying to give an honest reply to JTigger's request to understand what was going on in the head of an OW. In doing so, it helped me to work through what I was feeling too.

I personally don't think wanting to work things out with their wife makes a MM a jerk. But doing so in a way that leaves the OW and OC's lives devastated with no consideration by the MM or the BW for the devastation HE helped cause, is pretty selfish and coldhearted in my opinion. Especially if he continues to cheat! How could he not be considered a jerk? There is more than a financial obligation to bringing a child in the world. There is a moral obligation too, if he is to truly start to live his life right. NC doesn't allow for this, although it is less painful for the BS. They are innocent and it sucks that they have to suffer this at all, but once the deed is done, especially when a child is created there is no turning back.

I think if everyone were truly deciding to do the right thing after DDay there would be more compassion all around. How is it that the BW can love and forgive the WS, and yet have so little understanding and compassion for the OW? She did no worse than the WS, in fact most times it was not even a personal betrayal, whereas with the WS it was.

To be honest, I knew he was a jerk in some ways to be cheating at all, but I wasn't looking at him as a potential, long term, serious partner. I would never marry him even if he divorced because of the fact that he is a cheater. I don't understand how anyone could stay married in such a situation. That's just my personal opinion.

In truth, I admire those who can be so forgiving as to make their marriage work, I just don't understand how these same people can be so unforgiving to the OW? Maybe someone can help me understand that.....

<small>[ February 23, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Lostone29 ]</small>

***How is it that the BW can love and forgive the WS, and yet have so little understanding and compassion for the OW? ***

In my case it is because my H asked for forgiveness. The OW's only comment was she was sorry breast cancer didn't kill me.
I don't know one BS that has had the OW ask for forgiveness or even take any responsibility for the pain she helped create.
Asking for forgiveness is the first step in receiving forgiveness.

jtigger

***How is it that the BW can love and forgive the WS, and yet have so little understanding and compassion for the OW? ***

I also think that, in the case of an OC... the OW holds all the cards. She chooses whether or not to abort...whether or not to give up for adoption...whether or not to keep OC. The WH and OW both did the wrong thing...but OW gets all the choices as to how it will end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">***How is it that the BW can love and forgive the WS, and yet have so little understanding and compassion for the OW? ***

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And how is it, that in some cases, OW knows the MM's are married and still dally in sex with them? Where's the sisterhood and love and compassion and respect for marriage boundaries that the OW can wait until the MM is truly divorced before becoming involved?

I don't have compassion and understanding for my H's ex-ow who told me on the phone that me and my children don't mean Sh*t to her. But that's just MY situation.

Oh, and when I said what I did, I wasn't intending to be sarcastic, etc. There are many scenarios on this board...and I've seen and heard almost "all"....we don't owe anything other than financial support for a child we didn't want (that's my husband and me) OW wanted the child, she can raise the child herself with our financial support. That's our personal conviction and opinion, and I respect yours, even though I beg to differ on certain points.

What's so great about living where we do, is that we can have different opinions and still have the right to disagree.

My two cents, which again, don't mean much to many people.

Twiisty

Wow, I guess I never imagined any OW having the nerve to get mean or have an attitude with the BS. I could certianly understand bitterness by a BS in a case where the OW acts without any remorse and gets mean. Of course, there could also be communication problems that led the OW to believe the BS was on the attack and mean first off, even if it was because of lies told by the WS. If not, then I can't understand that kind of behavior.

I personally felt a lot of guilt during our affair. It wasn't that I didn't care about hurting another woman, it was just that I was being selfish and figured it would end before she ever found out or got hurt. In my case I never set out to break them up and he seemed to be the serial cheater type, so I was just foolishly giving in to my desire for the moment and not thinking of the possible consequences. I felt that he would probably cheat regardless. If not me, then with someone else. I did let it continue longer than I should have, and I did develop strong feelings for him. But I never once thought he would ever leave his marriage and never would have wanted that anyway. I spent most of the time trying to find a way to get over him and resist him. I did/do feel badly, and can't imagine a woman not feeling bad for the BS or remorse when they get hurt. After all, when it comes down to it, the OW knew he was married, as you all say, and we are certianly not innocent of wrongdoing.

It is the OW's choice to raise the child, you are right. But honestly put in that situation how many, as women, would have the strength to take the other options. After all, this child is yours and a part of you no matter how it came into being. And I might add, the MM knew he was taking a risk, too. Most men are aware that if they get a woman pregnant regardless of what they want the outcome to be she may not choose that. So they all go into it with the knowledge that they are risking this type of situation. That is why it makes me angry to hear things implying that because he wanted an abortion or adoption that he is now not responsible morally to play daddy. When he had sex with the woman he takes on that possible responsibility, in my opinion. Just like when I had sex I took on the responsibility of either having to abort, adopt, or do my part to raise the child in case it ever happened. I don't think the man should ever feel okay with walking away emotionally or be allowed to back out of his part in it. After all, it was unplanned by the woman too, but she still must take full responsibility. If you use that logic, why should he even be accountable to pay child support, then? Why one but not the other?

lostone29,

***Just like when I had sex I took on the responsibility of either having to abort, adopt, or do my part to raise the child in case it ever happened. ***

But thats the entire point. YOU had all those options. Don't you think a man should be allowed the same ?
Admittedly he can't have an abortion or force you to have one but don't you think he should also have the OPTION to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy ?
Why is it only women are allowed the option of deciding when they do or do not wish to be a parent ? If you hold to the saying it takes two to create a child then should not both have equal say about if they wish to be a parent to that child ?
And just for the record, if a man is forced into unwanted parenthood, I for one don't think he should be forced to pay child support.

<small>[ February 23, 2003, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

Because of all we had to endure and go through to fight my ex-husband for the CS that my two older children from a previous marriage deserve, the thought of NOT paying CS ever crossed our minds. We knew that we had to pay. That doesn't mean we have to like it, but it's the right and "moral" thing to do, just as my ex-husband who produced children with me in a legal marriage owes money for the children he "willingly" helped create.

When my husband had sex with the ex-ow, it wasn't for the full step of "willingly" creating a child. She admitted to getting pregnant on purpose to several mutual acquaintances. So yes, in my situation, I have a problem with it. There are never good enough answers or explanations for why my husband did what he did, only that creating a child wasn't one of them.

So, yes, we pay CS, even to the detriment of our family of the home. That is a consequence of my husband for breaking his marriage vows and creating an unwanted child for a cheap thrill of sex. He made his bed and he is paying for it. That does not, however, obligate us to include the child in our lives. Yes, the OW has choices and she chose to raise the child on her own.

My husband may not have used his head (the one with the brain in it) to wear a condom or use protection, but he can choose to walk away from the child's life and he did. Good, bad or ugly, that is the one choice he can reserve for himself and the ow and the courts make him pay dearly for it. I do ask for fairness in paying CS...not to the point that we have to declare bankruptcy and eat from Food banks and have our electricity cut off, all because "people have choices". The courts don't care and they don't legislate morality.

I'm just talking about my situation. As far as I'm concerned, my husband and ex-ow are BOTH 100% responsible and my, my children and the OC are the losers in this little game.

tragic and sad,

Twiisty