Hi,

I am stepping out of semi-retirement to ask a question that I wanted to ask months ago but didn't do.

Does the word "mistake" make you want to pull your hair out, scream obscenities, toss your cookies? It does me. The next time I hear some politician on TV confessing to an affair that the media has uncovered and he says "I made a mistake." I think I will kick in my television set.

Why do we no longer call things what they are in our culture? An affair isn't a mistake. A mistake is forgetting to turn your alarm clock on before you go to bed. It is most emphaticially not lying down in a bed with a strange alarm clock on a strange nightstand with a strange OP in a strange house. It is a sin, pure, ugly, evil, self-serving and hideously, horribly sulfur-reaking filthy and cruel. It is cruel to the faithful spouse, to the children of the marriage, to the people who raised you and tried to instill values in you, to the child you might create and even though the affair partner is a willing participant, even to the affair partner. I don't know why the people who created this site, being born again Christians, don't call this thing what it really is. Probably because, if the goal is saving your marriage, calling it what it is doesn't improve the chances. Maybe what we are all missing is that recovery is (usually) a spiritual journey as much as it is about learning about unmet needs and how not to be love-busting all over the person you promised to love forever.

[edited out something very unkind that I don't think about some of the OPs on this board that I respect.]

Can you tell we are getting ready to go on another visit to see Precious? Yes, yes, I really do care for her, no I am not a bad influence on her, no I don't tell her that her mother (nor her father) is going to hell--I don't believe it and to pretend that I even know what her mother's eternal future holds would be a hideous sin of pride on my part. If God can forgive me my sins, he can forgive anyone. [I just don't want people to think I am some sort of deranged danger to this child--physically, emotionally nor spiritually.]

I guess I am just railing against the unfairness of it all and angry that Mr. J's recovery is stalled and no amount of meeting his ENs is ever going to get him to be able to forgive himself. Only an active plan of claiming God's forgiveness will do that and he ain't going along for the ride. Meanwhile I get left with a shell of a husband who will waste the rest of his life hating himself for "being a worm." I want back an equal partner in this marriage--a man who is capable of giving as much as he is of taking. I want back the man I married even if he would be older and wiser. I want to stop having to try and fix him. I fixed myself, I have tried fixing him and I am getting weary, very, very weary. I am also not going anywhere. If I lived through his affair, I will not leave this marriage over this. I will just adjust my expectations, go into withdrawal and figure out a way to carve out a decent life given the circumstances I am in.

MJ

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

MJ, I think the word is used because even though a poor choice, in the aftermath it is seen as a mistake by WS. A mistake is a wrong turn also. WS takes the wrong turn in an A.

As far as your Mr. MJ is concerned...I think he's still depressed. An overhaul in a physicians office may well be the way to pull him out.

My H was depressed over everything for a long time. How he almost killed me (part of my spirit will never return), how oc will "come after him someday"...how our S was affected mentally...how his parents and siblings, he being the oldest, no longer looked up to him or admired him.

As I forgave and we began the slow process of reconciliation, he began to emerge from the sadness. His family was delighted w/our recovery as was mine. Our S began to smile again. H began to sleep the whole night through.

The difference in us is H accepts God. He turned away for so long. He actually blamed God for ow getting pregnant, saying, "How could God do all of this?"

Now after all of this time he knows HE did all this w/Ow! Together they did the passionate dance of Satan.

HE GETS IT NOW!!! Now H knows God didn't do it, H/Ow did. Whew...long time coming....

Hope your trip doesn't trigger to many ill feelings because you have enough to deal with.

One question. Does your H think this twice a year thing is ok? It may be more painful for all of you when Precious gets older and cries when all of you leave.

You settle down now. You're amazing, MJ!
love
Debi

MJ,

I can't really offer any advice, only hugs and prayers your way.

I hope the visit turns out nicely and that things settle for you.

(((((((((((((((MJ)))))))))))))))))))))))

How are you doing with your boys? I've wondered how y'all were doing....

Hugs and prayers,
Twiisty

your right mary jane,
It wasnt a mistake[I have been guilty of saying that] It was a very bad choice, but a choice none the less, we acted out of our selfish reasons and gave no thought to what our acts would cause and now he and I know our actions have effected many and will for years to come. Most of all it will affect our daughter. He and I both pray every day we make the right choices for daughter... we are in the process now of trying to make some adjustments to make things better for us all,
hope we get it right this time. Trial and error is all we have, none of us are used to this and I would guess all four people involved have a different idea of what is the best way.
I would imagine just 4 times a year would be difficult and trying for every one involved, since the rest of the year you lead a seperate life. However being so far apart I am sure gives you some relief from worry about the affair and such.
have a safe trip and enjoy your time with precious

Thanks Ladies, I really do need support right now.

Gem, no kidding he is depressed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He has been depressed for years now. Now, so am I. I struggled back from the revelation of his affair and child in the face of my infertility and now I am depressed again. I saw my doctor in December and got put on a new anti-d. It is not working. He changed it last week and this one s*ks also. I cry all the time.

We are so close to bancruptcy it isn't funny. We used to have piles of thousands of dollars left over at the end of every month. We couldn't spend it fast enough. After D-day he went 18 months w/o working. Now he is starting his own consulting business and he is working hard but it may be too much too late. We have run through the retirements funds (nearly). Maybe we have turned the financial corner. We are in a positive cash flow this month and the next two months for the first time in almost 3 years.

I also know the day my mood snapped. It was in November as the kids were telling me one more story of abuse that they suffered.

Twiisty, thanks for asking about the kids. They are generally doing great. We have learning disabilities and they have a horrible history to overcome but they are warm, loving and eager to please. They are bright and adapting well to their new life. After I put them to bed last night our older son called me back to the room because our younger son was crying himself to sleep. First time that has happened--unexplained crying. He has cried if he has gotten in trouble and sent to bed early or something. I picked the little guy up and cuddled him. He wouldn't tell me in front of his brother what was wrong so I took him in our room. He told me he was sad that his birth mother died, that he didn't miss his birth father who was mean to them all but that he missed his old apartment, his old toys (according to the police report there weren't any toys in the house) and that soon he wouldn't be a Russian boy and wouldn't be able to go back and find his old house or if he could find it, he wouldn't be able to talk to anyone because he had forgotten all his Russian. I called Mr. J up to our room, got bigger brother out of bed and we all held each other for awhile while the kids had a good cry.

I am lucky their "stuff" comes out. I feel blessed that they trust me enough to let me see the vulnerable side of themselves. I am also being crushed by the burden/blessing of hearing their stories. I suppose I need some counseling myself.

Gem, I don't know about the visits. Neither of us know if we are causing more harm than good or what. I never pictured a time when we would be so broke and unable to visit Precious. We just assumed that we would go 4x a year, we would add our boys into the visits and when she got to be about 6 or so, she would start to come to visit us as well. We thought we could do some sort of "favorite niece" or step-daughter kind of thing and that there would be more benefit for her than pain. I have watched my niece grow up w/out a father. He walked away when she was 6 months old, moved hundreds of miles away and never looked back. She has always felt the loss of him, even when she was less than three years old she used to cry about not having a daddy. I thought we were doing the right thing. Now I have no idea.

I also never knew of our boys history nor that their mother's infidelity and the fact that their younger sister (adopted by a family memember in Russia) was possibly only a half sister conceived of their mother's affair. The infidelity was, apparently, the cause of the violence, rampant alcoholism (litres and litres of vodka a day), the homicide attempts that they witnessed and the physical and emotional abuse they suffered at the hands of all three of the adults in their lives. We are so nervous about telling them about Precious and revealing this huge fracture in our marriage. We only want them to feel safe and to never doubt that we will both always be there for them, together.

Also, Mr. J is going away on business. This has only happened twice since D-day but before that he traveled 50% of the time. It allowed what had been a local A to continue long-distance even after we had moved thousands of miles away from exOW. Travel will probably always be a trigger for me.

Did anyone see Simpsons last night? Of all things to get me going--a stupid kid cartoon! Apu has an affair with some woman who delivers slurpees to the store. Lovely! I felt like stabbing my eyes out. Ears too.

Mo5, I was harsh about OPs and I am sorry. I didn't mean you. I didn't mean our own Tigger4jdt, JoshMom, Carmen Miranda, anyone I "know" personally. Heck my mother and one of my sisters have been OWen. I don't even mean our exOW. I just meant the abstract concept of "home-wreckers." Thank you for not blasting me out of the water. You're right; the distance does allow me to be able to live with the affair. If she (exOW) lived locally, we would have moved by now to protect our marriage.

MJ

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

MJ you have your hands so full right now.

I am sorry to hear of your sons' source of unhappiness. They and you are blessed to have one another again. It had to have happened for a reason. I remember how sad you were to have lost them....and now you have them back.

Sort of when we lost our marriages....well almost lost them.

Do you remember how we all were praying for each other?

God answers all prayer, maybe not what we specifically ask, but HE answers them.

Causes you to both wonder, and be so thankful at the same time huh?

I was crying non stop in the beginning of my taking anti depressants....took a full 2 weeks and then some. I actually think the pills were why I cried so much at first.

I pray you have the right ones now. I hope that the epidemic depression that has hit your family like a common cold will improve by spring if not before then.

As far as Precious...I hope the time is tranquil. May God guide your words to the boys. I hope they don't think if they do something wrong you'll leave them and visit a few times a year. You know?
It's all too much. What to say...what to do.

Your plate is full, MJ, to say the least.

Mr.Mj's trip would be a concern for me also if it were how the A lasted for so long. It stands to reason some things are just gonna set you off.

I'll pray now, for all of your peace....

And quit watching the Simpsons....try the food network...no triggers there....
love
Debi

MJ: hello! How old are your boys and I'm assuming their from Russia? That is way too cool. I adopted by daughter who is now 12 from Romania. She was 14 months old when I adopted her. She is the cutest "american" kid now (she just became a citizen last year)...She also has some learning disabilities and hand tremors caused they think from malnourishment and general neglect. But, she's all mine and I love that kid!

My prayers are with you on your children.

I read your post and my immediate prompting was to tell you that we Christians are meant to be above and not beneath, the head and not the tail.

I will pray for God to continue to call your husband for salvation. The bible says that someone plants the seed, someone else waters it and then it's cultivated. You plant the seeds my love.

My husband is not saved either and I hate that but I give him to God in prayer (yes, sometimes I run back to the alter to take it back because I don't think God is working fast enough) but that's what we're to do. Pray for his salvation and trust God.

Prayers for you too...God wants to heal the brokenhearted, remove the burdens and yokes that satan gives us and to give back to us what the locusts have eaten. Wow, and HE can do all of that. Just continue to pray, worship (praises go up, blessings come down) and love.

Sorry for the preachiness - I think I needed some of that myself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Love,

Angelia

I am not offended mj why would I be, I know my choices were bad, OH TO DO THEM OVER! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I love my child and would never choose to not have her, but I would make different choices about alot of things.
as an ow and a MW and mother of an OC as every one here says, I have pain and feel pain every day because of the choices I made. But thats just it, I accept them as they were my choices.

mj

just curious I dont know if you live in a large community, but are there other children in your area who have been adopted from russia and iis there some sort of commnity you could involve your selves in to keep up with the childrens heritage and questions so they dont feel they are losing something.

MJ,

I was not offended by your original post! I can understand your feelings, and you are entitled to them! You have been through a lot, and this will always be in your lives! Just like we have Abbi in our lives! Twiisty was saying to me today that she envy's us, as we don't have to deal w/the xOM, and I agree, that it is easier in that sense for us! We do have the daily reminder, but Abbi is such a loving and trusting little girl that it far out weighs her "beginnings"!! At this point, all I can offer you is hugs and prayers for the upcoming visit and for all the emotional turmoil that is in your home at this time! Those boys are so lucky to have such loving parents! With your strength, they can make it through this rough period!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Mary Janes & family}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Love,

Tigger

MJ., I totally agree with your issue. Whenever I hear my H or OW say it was a mistake, I want and have screamed. To me, a one night stand is a mistake-or at best, a case of poor judgment . But an affair that goes on for years, as I know yours and my H's did, is not a mistake. It is a pure, selfish act by the involved people.

Whenever my H says the OC was a mistake, I know he didn't want another child, and certainly not with OW.But I think both were foolish not to take precautions. I blame the OW., more, however, since H had only ever been with me, I was very careful about birth control, and the OW told him she couldn't get pregnant and didn't want to use condoms. Stupid and possibly manipulative.

And I wish I did live far away from OW and OC. My H cannot imagine doing that for sake of OC-and I say I cannot stay here for sake of our marriage and my kids'lives. Now who matters most?

I would be concerned about the effects of your H's infidelity and his OC on your two sons, given their history.ARe you planning on continuing visiting precious with them in tow? Have you considered stopping visits?

Funny, almost everyone who has tried visits with OC often end up giving it up, for one reason or other. I tell my H this, and he thinks we are all winers on this board. He refuses to listen to the devastation these visits can have on all involved, including the OC.

what do you all think?

MJ,
You really hit a sore subject with me also. I am so tired of hearing that it was a mistake and very poor judgement by WS. I am not critizing any one else's situation but my own. My WS I think also has the problem of not being able to forgive himself, probably the main reason my marriage is ending, he feels that he is not going to be judged by OW because they together made the "mistake", where as he would always feel that he was being tried over and over for his mistake if he remained married. He just never gave it enough time to heal.

A 7 year A and 2 OC is not a mistake. It was not poor choices, it was purely selfish on both WS and OW. My main bitterness about my whole situation besides the obvious, was when 4 years ago OW called me out of the blue and told me I must be having a problem with my H and her relationship. They were only friends, and she definately had never been intimate with my H, nor was that OC#1 NOT my H's. Stupidly I believed her, why would she lie?

As my marriage winds down, I probably am the "poster child" for NC. I tried visitation, accepted both OC, wanted my marriage to work, and work towards a blended family. But WS and OW could not end the relationship, oh they tried, but in the end so much contact between the three of us was too much. I was the one always the third wheel. I hate that my marriage is ending, all the anti-depressants in the world are not filling this horrible emptiness. WS and OW are basically living together now, and it hurts. What a bad example he is setting for our children, and the children in the other household. Or maybe I am just bitter that this separation was not fair. He never spent time alone to figure out his life.

But then instead of being a bad mistake or poor choice, OW told me she was going to tell her children that "it was meant to be".

MJ, I hope your visit with precious goes well, I was always thought to be a danger to OC by the OW because I did not approve of how they came to be.

Mof5 had a great suggestion of locating a community for the boys to continue with their heritage.

I will keep you in my thoughts MJ.

Tina

MJ,

Your post has been very thought provoking for me.
You are right, it was not a mistake. As someone else already mentined, certainly not a long term affair that produced a child(ren).
We are destined to learn certain lessons in life and I believe that my experience was necessary and intentional, it was meant to be. All of the experiences in life have a purpose for each of us. That is what I believe. Sometimes we don't understand it at first but usually over time, the lesson and the growth we experienced because of it come into focus.

CM

p.s. Just in case there actually is a carmen miranda out there in the world, I'd like to say that I'm not she! My login name has a special meaning but it is not intended to be a given name. Hopefully that clears up any confusion for someone with the last name of miranda.

Dear Ladies,

Thanks I needed the support and need your prayers. I am struggling so hard with depression. The money matter and the fact that we are only a few months away from losing everything is really crushing me. I don't miss the hectic, jet-set life we had but I do want enough to pay off our huge debt and to live a quiet simple, life with our kids. We have run through over $300,000 in savings over the past three years. So, I don't want you all to think that we were completely irresponsible. When he lost his job we had no debt--not a penny besides our large mortgage. We lived high, we earned huge and we saved well and the stock market was going gangbusters. We just never thought Mr. J would be almost three years with no job, or a very small job. The home we have is huge and expensive. We were going to fill it with 4, 5 or 6 adopted children. I was going to only work 1/2 time while they were in school.

His working from home and starting his own business gives us a lot of benefits. Unlike when he was in sales for a corporation, he doesn't have to travel. He sells specialized computer chips from our home. He is here each morning and evening. He is home (and usually finishing up his work) when the boys get home from school. We gain a lot by this, but the money has been a pittance. Until this month--he went from a $1,500 a month commission check to $6,000 for each of the next three months. We are back in a positive cash flow. Last month I couldn't afford to order my prescription refills for my arthritis medications (very expensive). Maybe we are starting to feel God's blessings again.

I don't care if we lose the house--well, sell it before the bank takes it. I could happily live someplace much more simple. If our cars weren't turned upside in mortgages, I could gladly sell the stupid German sports cars and be happy with more normal cars. They just remind me of the disgusting high-flying life we led. We were careful to save but we certainly never good stewards of what God had given us.

Angelia, thanks for the reminder of what I need to be doing. Placing my concerns on the altar. I am such a control freak that I often try to take my problems back because God isn't working on my timeline.

CMiranda. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> I just always thought you were Carmen Miranda, as in the old film star, as in the Jimmy Buffett song, "They Don't Dance Like Carmen No More."

Gem, we belong to the Russian adoptive parents group and do social things with the group. They are mostly Russian story hours, Russian meals, trips to see the Bolshoi ballet, etc. They are meant to show the kids the good parts of their Russian heritage but they don't help keep Russian language alive. The issue is that most of the kids there were adopted as infants and don't speak Russian--never did. We have a Russian tutor in each week and the boys and I each take a Russian lesson. We have Russian TV and Russian movies in the house. The problem is that little guys like our youngest, have their new language over-write their first language. He has completely forgotten his in 11 months of being here. He can't even say the simplest things anymore. We are starting back at the beginning with him, just building a vocabulary. Our older boy remembers much more. Both of them are very conflicted---they don't want to be Russian or speak Russian. But they grieve the loss of their old lives.

Yes, I believe God meant this to be. I have no other possible explanation for the loss of the adoption and the near-miraculous completion of the adoption 20 months later.

Thanks again,
MJ

MJ,

No problem, I hesitantly admit that I have no idea who carmen miranda is...I'm not a big movie buff:)

My heart just breaks for your children because I remember how painful it is to change, even when that change is for the best. How blessed those boys are to have been adopted by such a loving family.

Take care,
CM

CM,

Ah! She was around in the '40s. She usually wore a basket of fruit on her head and a brightly colored dress with a bare midriff. She was Brazilian singer and dancer. She was quite a hottie in her day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I always pictured you with pineapples, oranges and bananas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Donna

MJ,
It's good to hear from you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm so glad the boys have you--you da MOM!

I agree with the others re: your hubby; he needs help, and it's not your fault, or even the A--probably the A is a by-products of his problems, and now the guilt compounds it. Can you get him to get help? Someone at my adoption agency recently lost a husband to suicide, father to two adopted girls; I would hate for that to happen to you and the boys.

So, are you guys taking the boys when you visit Precious? There are no easy answers, are there? It's not obvious what is right. I still think about our long-distant OC and wonder what the future holds...

I'd also like to hear how the boys react to knowing @OC, as I'm wondering how our kids, but esp. adopted child(ren) will do...

With a prayer,
J

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

Jenny,

We postponed the trip to visit Precious. Her mom (exOW) took it quite well. She has been amazingly accomodating and understanding of the challenges we face as we are forging a new family. I turly do not and probably never will understand this woman but I do know that she appears (like we are) trying to do her best in very difficult circumstances. She even considers the welfare of our children as equally as important as the welfare of her child.

The issue right now is that we are right on the financial edge and if things don't change we only have enough savings to get us through 10 more months at our current income shortfall. It is not that we earn so litte but it is that our previous life was so stratospheric that we have trouble staying afloat. Guess we didn't really need that lovely house on the hill and the German cars, did we? :-)

I will certainly post when we tell the boys about Precious and again after they have met her. Their fears about this home not being a permanent home, about being sent back to Russia, etc. have seemed to have calmed down since before the holidays. I think that they are now able to handle the knowledge of a "sister." They have dealt with so many things that have to be, from their point of view, so much more difficult.

I am sorry to hear of the situation with your adoption agency. We worked with three agencies to complete this adoption--two of them were involved in the recent US case of an adoptive mother killing their child--supposedly a child with RAD. I was so shocked--if they could misjudge this woman so badly, could they have misjudged me? Our social worker said what I believe to be the ultimate truth in all parenting--you can't really predict who is going to snap.

I don't think that either of us is in a real crisis but we both need some tuneup. The anti-d that my doctor prescribed caused me to fall asleep at the wheel twice last week--obviously I am no longer taking that one and am waiting for him to prescribe a new one. Mr. J's moods are up and down, he has his better days and he has his black pits. Generally, over the past year it has been an upward curve with fewer backslides and with them further apart. I think we are on the right trail.

Jenny, I think that one thing in favor of domestic adoption (which I know you wouldn't qualify for until you are once again, domestic) is that you have a much more complete record of the abuse/neglect suffered. I think if I had known what was coming I would have been better prepared. As it was, I was blown away by the level of abuse and its chronic nature. I had no idea this was coming and I had no idea that it was infidelity that led to the breakdown of their first home.

MJ