This time I'm gonna ask a question that the answer will not be "give it more time"!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

At marriage counseling yesterday the pastor asked me if I thought H was repentent. I thought and truthfully answered I didn't know.

Let me give you what I think the list is of what he's done.....
*He asked me to forgive him
*He told me he's sorry and he's an idiot (hmmmm)
*He told me he ended affair with xow long before I found out (he had come out of his fog or whatever)
*He is willing to do marriage counseling
*He promises he's learned and never again
*He wants to change the way we communicate, etc - willing to learn new things

So, why did I answer the pastor I don't know....I'm not sure. Part of me thinks he's doing all this stuff just because he doesn't want to lose what's comfortable. Part of me thinks that he lied for so many years, why believe him now, and part of me thinks it's his attitude. He does not hold me when I cry - the ultimate conflict avoider - he doesn't know what to do with me. He tells me "I've said I'm sorry a thousand times" (he hasn't hit the 1,000 mark but maybe around 888 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

So, anyway, the pastor said, if he's doing these things what would it take for you to believe he's repented.

I'm supposed to report back next week with my answer.

I don't even know where to start? i'm not sure I know what it would take. Is it a thing? a thought? an emotion? an attitude? I just am not sure.

Maybe he gave me that assignment because it is impossible and maybe not. I don't know and would like your thoughts.

Angelia,
My counselor early in recovery asked me the same thing. I, too, honestly said, "I don't know if my h is repentant". At that point (before the problems that led to the divorce had started) he had apologized, begged forgiveness, etc. I don't know what I was looking for exactly, but I wanted something more dramatic, more openly and conclusively demonstrative of his deep desire to be with only me. A few ideas came to mind, from which I made my list of things to take to the counselor. Here are some taht I remember putting on my list:

1. If he would build, say, a great pyramid in my honor. Or, failing that, perhaps a masterpeice of art along the lines of the sistene chapel ceiling...just something that would involve either intense physical labor or extraordinary mental dedication.

2. I read somewhere that certain Native American tribes would show grief by cutting off a finger when a love one died. I was not necessarily demanding that h cut off a phallange as essential and useful as an index finger. I would have settled for a pinky, or even possibly a big toe. (Considering the body part of h's that *I* wanted to cut off when I found out about the affair, I think I was within my boundaries with this one.)

3. If he would perform a miracle of some kind, such as raising somebody from the dead, or walking on water. Or turning the ramen noodles we were stuck eating (due to the outrageous child support payments) into chocolate Hershey bars - now THAT would have impressed the living [censored] out of me.

4. If he arranged for me to have one night of crazy passionate sex JUST ONCE with Paul McCartney to make things even. (Ok, it really would not have made things even, but I do love Paul McCartney, so I had to throw that in).

Anyway, that is all of my list that I remember. My counselor read it with raised eyebrow, and informed me in a dry and slightly condescending tone:
1. Sarcasm does not a faster healing make, and
2. Paul McCartney was happily married and would never end up with a woman my age.

I feel that this little therapy technique was not very useful in the long run. The big issue here was really NOT the sarcasm part - he was probably right about that. Did not help me heal faster, although it sure did make the long, slooowww process of healing a little more enjoyable. No, I think it failed for another reason entirely: It is a plain and undisputed fact that Paul McCartney DID IN FACT end up with a girl my age (or close to it).

I am considering bringing a malpractice suit against my former therapist. Everytime I see that darn Heather Mills on TV, I think to myself, "There but for the lack of imagination of one stupid therapist goes I..."

Angelia, truth is I don't know what would have shown me that my h was repentant. I sort of think that maybe he never really was. It sounds to me, though, that your h is really trying to show you he is sorry.

Can you tell I am officially on spring break now?
-cd

CD, you are incredibly funny. Had I been your therapist, I frankly would have enjoyed your sense of humor. Or at least pointed out that what you required of husband to feel as if he was sorry was almost out of reach-- and perhaps something your husband could never achieve.ANd I have done counseling as a therapist before. Your therapist had no sense of humor!

On the other hand, to answer Angelia's question,I think what you are asking for is really seeing if your husband gets the pain he has caused for you. Sorry just doesn't cut it. Your husband has said your sorry about 898 times more than mine, and it doesn't seem as if that is doing it for you.

Steve Harley would say that your husband needs to really compose his thoughts as to why he did the affair,what were his weaknesses that permitted it to happen, how he intends to protect those weaknesses so that it never happens again, and Yes, tell you what he thinks the A and OC did to you.ANd then you get a chance to fill in any gaps where he isn't getting it.ANd then he repeats it back to you.

It helped my H and I doing that, to some extent. Maybe you should try it. Or get counseling from STeve.

Unhappy wife.+

CD, I opt for number 4 except I'd like the following.....

Michael Jordan - although he has his own share of affairs to deal with
Robert Redford - I'd pay him the million
Denzel Washington - is he married?
Joe Millionaire - maybe with a hair cut - hey, he's got $500,000 so no ramen noodles there
Paul Newman - I think his wife might mind though
LL Cool J - I don't know if he's married but he does that sexy tongue thing and has a great six pack!

Oh, that repentance posting went down hill FAST!!!!

See, I don't know if there is an answer.....maybe that's the point - to just accept those answers and try to move on.

Spring break <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .....You enjoy yourself - you deserve it!

Can I add the following to my wish list?

Harrison Ford
Kevin Spacey
Johnny Rzeznik (Lead singer of the Goo Goo Dolls)
Billy Idol (yeah...he's old, but good for a laugh)

But all kidding aside...I agree with what Unhappy Wife posted....

What led to it, how to prevent it and acknowledging the pain that he caused me from it.

That helps alot. And what he plans to do to prevent it in the future....

That went a long way with me.

Hugs,
Twiisty
Sorry I couldn't get back to you on IM...phone started ringing off the hook and then I had a 3 year old interupt me for the night....*sigh*

Ok, I did not know we could make lists. I want all of the above on mine, plus Mel Gibson.

My sister and I were talking one evening about what we would say to a famous person, if ever we had chance to meet somebody we liked, and could say just one thing to them. I said I would say (to Paul)"Hi Mr. McCartney...my friend over there (pointing to anybody in the crowd) bet me fifty dollars that I couldn't get you to kiss me...can you either help me out or lend me fifty bucks?" I thought that was fairly clever until my brother chimed in on what he would say to Meg Ryan.

He said, "I would go up to her and simply say 'Something very clever'. That way, I could tell all my friends, 'I ran into Meg Ryan one day' and they would say, 'Really, what did you say to her?' and I could say, 'Oh, just something very clever."

I think his line beats mine for cleverness, but I still think I have got the better chance of being smooched.

-cd

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I forgot to add Russell Crowe...
But I must behave myself, I mean, after all, I'm in the business of saving my marriage and not listing my "dream" list of hotties....*sigh*.....

Your brother did have something clever to say....that's a good one.

Hugs to y'all.......
Twiisty

In my life actions speak louder than words, as I have heard all those excuses before from my husband, and would have laughed hearing them again.
But now I truly see he means them as his actions show that he does. I see effort and work on his part, I never ever saw before in 18 years.

MO5: that's where my problem lies.....my H, and I mean this with all my heart and am not lying, with the exception of hiding his cell phone from me, acted the same way physically, sexually, emotionally, financially, etc with me the entire time he had the affair, while she was pregnant and after he stopped seeing her.

He has always been affectionate, romantic, giving, loving, home on time (yes, there were some times but not many that he wasn't home right after work but he was never gone hours), so that's why this makes no sense to me.

That's why although he says he's sorry his actions aren't much different. Does that make sense?

Oh, and Twiisty....Russel Crow - only if he looks like he did when he was in Proof of Life or Gladiator...I don't like his long hair.... hehe!

It makes complete sense to me.

Your h's actions (as romantic and wonderful as they are) are no different than when he had the affair. Actions speak louder than words. You are looking for that action that says to you, 'a-ha! he's never done this before. he must be sincere. things are different now and I don't have to worry anymore.'

Angelia,

I am with you on this one. If we had no clue to the affair then how do we trust our own instincts? How do we keep ourselves safe in the future? This was one of the hardest aspects for me. From reading these boards it seems about 50% of the BS have suspicions and go looking for proof. The other 50% of us stumble across it or the lucky ones have their repentent WSs come to them and 'fess up.

As for the list of things:

I wanted H to have his private parts removed and reattached with velcro. That way when he was away from me, I would keep them safely at home. When he was home, he could reattach them and meed my EN of SF (that's plain ole sex for those of us not so circumspect as the Harleys).

I head one woman say that if he H ever again told her he wanted "space" he could catch the next shuttle. I don't know, it sure cracked me up. CD, sorry your counselor had so little humor. I think it is a wonderful tool to have in the kit and I think gallows humor is quite appropriate and stress relieving.

My funny story: Once when I couldn't sleep (about 8 weeks past D-day) Mr. J was quite angry that I was out of bed all night. He asked where I was, I said I was on the lesbian chat boards looking for his replacement. He actually had the nerve to complain about this to our counselor. She proceeded to tell him that I had been telling him over and over again how his ongoing contact with OW was tearing me apart and he obviously wasn't getting the message. She said I had done some high-falutin psychological technique of imposing pain to gain empathy from him and he could expect more behavior like that if he didn't change his ways. After Mr. J left, she high-fived me. She said I had chosen the perfect response--a need he could not possibly ever meet as he came equipped with the wrong set of genitals. No, I am not lesbian and I doubt that she was either. She took my anger in stride, as something to be expected given the awful circumstances. She also didn't encourage me to continue down that path. I felt a little powerful for a moment. I got a little of mine back--probably the only time I did or even really wanted to in our recovery process. I am glad she hadn't tried to shame me.

Really, truly I don't have anyone on my list of fantasy famous men. Is there something wrong with me? Don't worry, there aren't any women on the list either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MJ

MJ