I just found out that the XOW's latest MM commited suicide last week, probably due to many reasons bankruptcy,going thru a divorce with his wife and in my opinion probably also the OW's manipulative mind games. I feel an incredible amount of guilt for not calling his wife and discussing what I knew of his affair . Would this have changed the outcome? Maybe, maybe not...I'll never know...

he was also a co-worker, just not in the office...and yet she still sits there everyday , today even laughing and smiling as if nothing has happened...fyi..they were still involved.
This is now 3 men in the same company that this woman has messed around with( that I know of), and 3 families that she's affected. The company just seems to look the other way...how do some people sleep at night? Does it not matter that 2 peoples father is dead and 2 kids have lost their grandfather?

as sad and devistating it is for someone to take their own life. You cant blame those around the person that was sick enough to do it. You just cant it isnt their fault. You cant blame your self, nothing you said would have made a difference, dont beat your self up, if you want to do something, cook them dinner, and deliver it, ask her how you can help, start a fund at work to help her grandchildren for college or something of that nature. but dont bring more grief by sharing what you know.

I knew a woman who was like this, after she destroyed a dozen or so marriages the military escorted her out of the country back to the states, hows that for humiliation, haha I would have been happy to stand at the gate and wave goodbye. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ok so I have a mean side...

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm defending her for her misconduct. However, honestly I feel the only person responsible for this man's choice to end his life, is himself.
I knew of someone like the xow in your case, I worked with her several years ago. There wasn't a guy that she didn't try to seduce. Most of the men joked about what a scank she was and if they got hit on by her they were harrassed and laughed at. Not exactly an ego boost.. Anyway, no matter how many MM or othewise commited men she got involved with, ultimately, they made the choice to be involved with her.
It is a tragedy that this man ended his life; really a tragedy that a person can not see beyond the current despair they are feeling and know that nothing lasts forever. I know that you despise this woman, understandably so, but she isn't responsible for his death imho. Some of his problems maybe but not his decision to kill himself.

CM

And you say the company looks the other way?

I would try to figure out who in the company would take notice. That's not right.

But, "what comes around goes around" and she will get hers if she doesn't repent or change her ways.

How tragic and sad.

That woman must have a very low self esteem and feeds on the power it gives her knowing she can manipulate people like that. Very tragic and sad.

Sending ya hugs,
Twiisty

MO5~ I in NO way would infringe upon this womans grief, nothing is going to change the outcome

CM ~ you're right he is the only person responsible for his death, he and he alone made the choice to pull the trigger. All I stated was that she was PROBABLY a contributing factor.
Twiisty ~ thanks for the hugs girl...I sure do need them. I just can't seem to shake this guilt that we could have done something.

I know in my heart she'll get hers, but how many other people are going to be jerked around before that happens?

On a more positve note, the company finally has consented to moving Doc's desk to another part of the building ( he's only been asking weekly since last July)He is really shaken by all of this and kinda blew it with his superiors, I'm just sorry that it took something this tragic to get them to pay attention...sighs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: DocsGirl ]</small>

The "company" is just of group of people, whom are most likey more interested in turning profits and avoiding harassment suits than some woman or man sleeping with married or othewise committed yet consenting adults. Companies have policies in place but it is normally to avoid situations like mine, xmm was my director, there was a clear conflict of interest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>The "company" is just of group of people, whom are most likey more interested in turning profits and avoiding harassment suits than some woman or man sleeping with married or othewise committed yet consenting adults. .</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and in MY opinion this has contributed to the decline of the American family.

Interesting take on things..DG.

Who is Corporate America and why should we trust them to perserve the nuclear family anyways? Its not Mr or Mrs Brady sitting on the board afterall. They contribute to such things as hard core porn on our cable networks, all to grab a piece of the billions of dollars per year generated in the porn industry. Do you think the CEO's daughters are porn stars? Hell no. They are graduates of MIT and Yale for God's sake. I'm certainly not expecting the corporate world to play any role in keeping the family together. Maybe we should start at home.

CM

Boy, I know that I am going to be on the wrong side (unpopular side of this argument) but the older I get and the more trauma I see in life the less I believe that AA theory that "you can't make me feel anything." Yup, that may be true if you are the clerk in the grocery store and you are rude to me. I can choose to be angry, to be empathetic, or to figure that you mood doesn't need to affect mine.

However, I think that clear line starts to break down the closer we let someone near our intimate selves. I don't know how much of a choice it was to become suicidally depressed at learning of Mr. J's affair. Isn't that kind of the point of all the Harley stuff? Spouses can and do make each other miserable or happy. Ultimately it was my choice to pull the trigger or get myself to the hospital. I made the right decision but I do hold Mr. J and exOW directly accountable for driving me to the brink of suicide. A married couple promises to love and care for each other. If we get married knowing our future we would put up emotional walls to protect ourselves. We didn't; we expected what our culture has taught us to expect--not a business arrangement, but a marriage of two souls. We kept no reserves, we let our spouse see the intimate heart of ourselves.

I don't know--somehow most Greek and Spanish women don't wind up suicidal when their husbands have an affair. (I know that this is a bit of a stereotype, but studies do uphold the basic truth of this.) They have different expectations of what a marriage is. Maybe they want it to be what we want our marriages to be, but their culture has told them to expect something different. The vows are the same but the expectation is different.

exOW has apologized to me a couple of times. She doesn't know that I checked in to the hospital. I told Mr. J if he ever let her know that it would be the end of our marriage. Now I want her to know. I want her to fully understand how dangerous her pattern of EMAs really is. (My sister says I just want her to suffer more guilt--she says it as if that's a bad thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Ours was not the first marriage she threatened.

I think that the pain we cause others has real consequences. If it didn't what is the whole eastern concept of Karma all about? I think we are all a lot more interconnected (and thereby responsible) that our American ideal of independence lets us face.

DG, I don't think that you are responsible for this in anyway, but I do think that OW may be.

MJ

I also believe that we are interconnected. I believe that everything happens for a reason and that our souls agree before we're born to present us with circumstances in which we were meant to have, with other souls. Specific souls, not randomly.

In the last year or so I have come to realize that while our spouses do directly affect our lives, to be happy, we can not rely on anyone but ourselves for our own happiness. It comes from within. I blamed my H for my unhappiness. I looked to him 110% for my happiness and sense of contentment. When he fell short, I looked to someone else. In the end, that person failed as well. Once I began to look internally first as a primary source of my own well being, did I understand that it is not my H's job to make or break me. He is soppose to compliment my life and my emotions, he is not the be all or end all.
When we place our happiness completely in the hands of another and they let us down, then what? We are subject to thoughts of self-destruction because we are devestated. I will never again give all my power away. I see that as co-dependent rather than love.

CM,

i agree with a lot of what you said, but i want to add something. when we look to others to make us happy, it puts a tremendous weight on them. i realize now that it had a lot to do with the problems in my m that led to my h's a.

i was suffering from depression and no matter what my h did or how hard he tried, it wasn't enough to make me happy. then, his mother died and well, enough said.

while he is completely responsible for his actions, i have to accept my part in the problems which weakened our marriage and allowed the opportunity for an a.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Interesting take on things..DG.

Who is Corporate America and why should we trust them to perserve the nuclear family anyways? Its not Mr or Mrs Brady sitting on the board afterall.
CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mr Brady ..didn't he die of aids a few years back, and isn't Mrs. on TV in bed with Ozzy Osbourne...

did I expect "the company" to do anything to XOW for sleeping with the Doc? NO

Did I expect them to help him out after him confessing to them of his affair and the messed up mind games the XOW was playing, how it was affecting not only his work but his family life...YES.
I mean he only asked to be moved to another part of the office, something that happened rather quickly after the XOW's current married man blew his brains out.

I agree that we are responsible for ourselves, but is that where it ends?

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: DocsGirl ]</small>

DG,

I was refering the fantasy world of the Brady's not who they are in real life.

I realize that you didn't expect the company to do anything to xow because they would also be obligated to do something to doc, since he and she both worked together and consented to the A.

I don't recall if you mentioned in the past the mind games that she played, if you did, I don't remember what they were. I soppose if an employee came to me to request a move because of a personal relationship gone sour, I would have to know more than it just didn't work out, to justfiy moving a person. Particularily if it disrupted the workflow or standard that was in place. I'm not defending the companies decsion not to move him until this latest tragedy, it may just be that I don't knw all the facts and I'm having a hard time understanding how moving someone internally solves an obviously much larger problem.

Stephmac1974,
I agree completely with what you said. I played the blame game far too long. It is so easy to do and I got to make up all the rules.
I am completely responsible for my actions. I was incredibly fortunate in that my H also recognized that his actions contributed to the state of our marriage. It was the only way we could survive all the harm we did to eachother.
cm

DG,
I believe that is a tragedy. And I do believe people need to show empathy and care enough about their employees to listen to them.

Dawn

<small>[ March 14, 2003, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Dawn71 ]</small>