Sounds like someone beside ow want it all and believe they are entitled to it. Its a funny thing, rights. You know, rights of a parent, rights of a child, the law, all of it. I honestly do not believe that there is any state that supports a man's choice about whether he'll be financially responsible for a child he created with any woman. Thank goodness for that mind you. Afterall, there are those men who try hard to win his ow over. Like mine, he treated me right for 6 long months before he got a chance to make a semen deposit. And all those that followed certainly helped me to 'get myself pregnant'. I don't recall him sleeping through it so I'm confident I didn't do it all by myself as you suggest. Instead of blaming ow for your spouses affair it would do you well to understand it takes 2, always 2 people. He was there and he is responsible. Its really too bad for him that he didn't keep it in his marriage. If I've offended you, tyme, well as you said, its just too bad. Don't worry about the respect thing either, really, you can keep yours.
I don't want it all but I will take what is mine if I so chose.
You know what, both M05 and I are ws how convenient that some people like to pretent that is not the case. It is hilarious to me that you preach about ow when you dodge the fact that I am a fws.
In response to butterfly requesting that M05 stay off the site because she isn't replying correctly nor is she welcome to...hon, you dont' get to chose who replies to your posts. If you want personal time, see a therapist. If you only want to hear what you want to hear, talk to a friend. In any case, get real. You don't get to make the rules.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

Hello to all the valuable members of the Pregnancy/Child section of the Marriage Builders Forum,

I'm popping in here as this thread has gone onto a very negative and hurtful path. I'm asking that you all please play nicely.

Tempest has included a guideline for this section of the forum on the front page of this section. It goes as follows:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Note from Administrator: The Marriage Builders website is owned and operated by Marriage Builders. The forums are provided, free of charge - a GIFT to us from Marriage Builders - to give us a place to discuss the issues of Marriage Building.
If you are building or rebuilding your marriage or if you want to provide support to others in building or rebuilding their marriages, then you are welcome here.

If anyone has any questions regarding this announcement, please feel free to email Tempest. Thank you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Getting into an old and tiresome battle here is not constructive in any way, shape or forum. Nor does it provide the much needed support for anyone toward the goal of rebuilding their marriages.

As always your cooperation in complying to my request is greatly appreciated.

Well well...this has all been quite interesting, to say the very least, and very unnecessarily venemous.

That aside, I'm going to try to comment on as much as possible.

First, butterflie, I have to admit that in your initial post you did make it sound as if you wanted the child purely out of revenge towards the OW. However, I think that what you said in there was said from still being in a state of immense anger and hurt. I think what you said further down the road, about wanting the child for the good of the child was probably (I hope at least) more honest, because at that point, you'd had more time to think calmly and gather your thoughts and reasons for wanting this child in a rational matter.
Secondly, Tyme...my my, it's convenient to the marriage to say "the child and it's mother are an inconvenience, treat them as such because a woman who lays down with a married man deserves no respect." However, marriage isn't always convenient and life isn't perfect. After an affair, especially one that produces a child, you cannot simply brush off the OW and/or child as an "inconvience" and whether or not the OW deserves respect is really quite irrelevent. That child did nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished for the sins or the father or mother. At the very least, you're letting off the cheating husband far too easy by placing the blame for the affair on the OW. It doesn't matter whether he planned on the child, doesn't matter whether the other woman had the baby on purpose to keep the man. Whatever the motives, the child exists and doesn't deserve to be treated as "an inconvenince to the BS".
Thirdly, Mother of 5, yes, I agree with you about Tyme's view on what the baby produced by the affair should be treated as. However, I don't see where Stacia ever said that she thought it was okay that Tyme addressed the child as such. Yes, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but be sure not to attack. This is, afterall, suppose to be a place for healing, help and support.

Okay..I may or may not have left out things I wanted to comment on..chalk it up to my short term memory.

Butterflie, good luck. I wish the best for you, your H and the baby.

Welcome Amb
Tell us your story, are you BS WS OW?

(sigh)

There was a time when newly Betrayeds in pain could come here and express their pain any way they wished because this was safe place to do so without recriminations.

Newly Betrayeds say things they ordinarily would not say if they were not dealing with the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage.

Initially, Betrayeds are so completely devastated and wounded, all they know how to do is lash out and say things that mirror their immense pain.

It wasn't long ago that I referred to the OW as an Opportunistic Whore and the OC as a [censored] Spawn in my despair and utter emotional destruction and pain. Those living the same horror understood and realized the things I said were just my way of expressing my rage and grief and allowed me to purge myself of my intense and immensely profound grief. It is like nothing anyone can even imagine unless you are on the receiving end of this kind of discovery. The shock and knowledge that your life is not what it seemed is so tragic, you are sent reeling for years trying to make sense of the confustion and trauma to your life...your one and only life.

The anger towards the people who have destroyed everything you hold dear and steal from you the most important things in your life is something akin to a complete stranger coming into your home and stealing your personal possessions, stealing your car, setting fire to your house and running over you in their car...they would go to jail for these things, but screwing your spouse and creating a child that should not exist by your spouse is something they pay no price for...in fact, we end up paying them! Causing huge financial burdens to our families while our spouses do not have the luxury to relinguish 'parenthood' as the OW can if SHE chooses.

It does take two, but I will always maintain that women have the first "call" as to whether or not there will be sex in the first place, unless they are raped, and are the first one on the list of who is the responsible party for this family destruction.

The seemingly inappropriate things the Betrayeds say during the first raw and painful months and sometimes years after discover are admittingly shocking in their hatefulness, but, it is simply part of the process and they should not be reprimanded for their feelings, especially here.

Any OW who crashes this site should just suck it up and understand that this is a site to rebuild marriages and initially for Betrayeds in pain to come here and purge themselves of their pain. This kind of venom doesn't last and saying these things is helpful to them in the beginning, like it or not. And it isn't going to stop no matter how much you try to control our words or shame us into watching our words or trying to sic the Word Police on us.

Most of the Betrayeds find their way and soften with time, learn the principles of this site and practice the MB principles and come out better than ever on the other side of this.

If an OW wants to come here and post, they ought not be sensitive about things said because they are in the minority here and majority rules. Don't take it personally...we are all talking about our own particular situations anyway. Taking it personally just reinforces to us your self centeredness and displays the same selfishness that allowed you to screw a MM to begin with.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

I 2nd the sigh..

We will never all agree. I've said this so many times here but I'll say it again.
If you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it, otherwise all bets are off. That is just how life is. This isn't a counter group here.

Taking it personally just reinforces to us your self centeredness and displays the same selfishness that allowed you to screw a MM to begin with.

You want to talk about taking things personally?! As if OW/WS's are the ONLY ones who do this? OR do you mean that BS's are the only ones allowed to take things personally?????!!!!!
The truth is sometimes the words used do hit a nerve for anyone of us. That is how it goes, if you think you can deny someone that right simply because of their "role" here, well I'd say you are mistaken. I uphold my right and I see that many of the BS's are also doing the same. It has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with human feelings.

cm

I see why CMiranda was the OW. Just listen to her comments. She sounds like the type of person to settle for leftovers, playing second fiddle. Anybody who willingly sleeps with MM and knows he/she is married have low self esteem and are just plain stupid! My dear I am in counseling and marriage is going very successfully. It is people like you who give OW a bad name. Sound like a very insecure individual who had to share a man to make her feel good about herself. Have a good day. No need to waste your time replying I will not be reading anymore into your petty remarks. Good luck with your next affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

life would be pretty sad if you were not able to voice your opinion just because you were a minority.

I am a ws, would any of you begrudge your husband to speak here if he didnt agree with you ?

NO and I dont have to change my opinion because not every one agrees with me. You wouldnt why should I ?

I am working on my marriage, but every thing isnt black and white. These issues are not solved by hearing only one majority idea. The same iDEA OF NO CONTACT DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERY ONE. In some cases it is a great idea, but in others it isnt.

Your complaining about the very thing Your husbands did, but somehow find it more offensive for the woman who was involved, I am not sure why, they were pretty equal partners in it.
MM is not forced to be in my daughters life, or mine or my husbands, He chooses to be because he loves our daughter. He isnt an enemy. He isnt any thing, just her father and will be treated as such. I dont treat him less because he was an om <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What would be the point of all that anger and fighting.

My husband was not forced to be her father, He chose to be because he loves her and wants to be. She is a lucky little girl because she has more to love her.

My husband says any man who would not be in a childs life that he created is a worthless excuse for a man!? He also told me if he found out he had another child and I didnt want him to see that child and do for that child, he would leave me, and I know my husband, he would never walk away from a child, he didnt even walk away from my child.
Does it make his opinion the only one that matters ? NO it just makes it his opinion.

so I am offended by ugly remarks made about children, I dont mind if you call me names, if it makes you feel better. But you arent going to heal if you feel ok calling children names and sugesting they be treated badly.
Because like it or not your husbands created a baby and like it or not it is a real breathing human being and just as innocent as your children from your marriage, as you were in not knowing of your husbands choices.

It causes me pain to hear remarks made about innocent children. and just because I am a ws and have a child by the op, does not mean I should suck it up and say its ok, I am a minority here, after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
and for those who think ow have babies to keep mm in your life, I would guess that happens, but most of these things were unexpected and a suprise to both parties, careless, I guess people become comfortable with someone and sometimes dont worry about the out come. But my gosh, I would have never gotten pregnant on purpose, heck I was done having kids and frankly thought it was a sick joke.. I have since recovered and think she was the best thing that could happen to all of us, alot of healing has gone on, we take steps forward , some back, but we always manage to go forward again. and I for one am thrilled.
and not all mm pay for the child, mine takes care of less than 3 percent of her needs, my husband pays for every thing, and om gets all those hugs and kisses and time with his daughter, it isnt so bad for him either, he doesnt think he is paying for any thing. He says he wants to do a good job, and he wants to make sure he takes nothing away from my husband, after all my husband has been the one to do every thing from day one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

and for the one who thinks I said having a bunch of kids makes you a better parent, I never said that and dont think it. I make mistakes as much as the next parent, I just keep trying to do better and between all of us we figure it out. Thats all. nothing more than that, same thing all parents do.

where were my kids when I was having an affair ? well sometimes they were with thier father[we were seperated] The are older so they were not hme alot, or with family, school, where were all the kids while these husbands were having an affair, same places, home with the other parent, school, family, your point being what, do you spend 24 hours a day with your children ?

Most of us dont.

catnip
so nice to see you, after all if it weren't for me and cm you wouldnt have any one to fuss at. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I was thinking of you the other day, glad your doing well.

I will say this, I was angry for what ever reasons and should have worked better on my wording, so for that I apologise to those I offended. Doesnt mean I change my opinion, after all we are in America. But we can agree to disagree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I 2nd the sigh..

We will never all agree. I've said this so many times here but I'll say it again.
If you want to be treated with respect, you have to give it, otherwise all bets are off. That is just how life is. This isn't a counter group here.

=^^= It sure seems like a counter group here with Betrayeds constantly shamed for the way they feel and what they say. It is difficult for Betrayeds to respect OP's under the best of circumstances but after months of posting most Betrayeds develop a respect for those deserving. Respect is something to be earned...it is not unconditional.

Taking it personally just reinforces to us your self centeredness and displays the same selfishness that allowed you to screw a MM to begin with.

You want to talk about taking things personally?! As if OW/WS's are the ONLY ones who do this? OR do you mean that BS's are the only ones allowed to take things personally?????!!!!!

=^^= Uh, pretty much. That's pretty much how I feel anyway. Just like if I went to gloryb and mouthed off over there, I would expect to get a lot of opposition and slapped back... and I would not whine about their lack of respect for me or their double standards because I would be on their turf. Even if I am hard pressed to respect most of them, I certainly respect their right to their own site and their unspoken "rules" and not demand they give me equal ground. If I know a dog will bite me, I won't stick my hand out and give him the opportunity to chomp on me, especially if I am sticking my hand through HIS fence to do it.

The truth is sometimes the words used do hit a nerve for anyone of us. That is how it goes, if you think you can deny someone that right simply because of their "role" here, well I'd say you are mistaken.

=^^= I don't think I am mistaken here but that is for another thread. When I asked Steve Harley to create this site, it was for Betrayeds who were dealing with special circumstances of an affair that produced an OC and the extra special challeges involved with rebuilding a marraige for those of us with the kind of immense difficulties surrounding this situation. Truly, majority does rule and I would think anyone of an opposite point of view would certainly respect that and just work on rebuilding their own marriage and not expect Betrayeds to kowtow to them and make unrealistic and preposterous demands.

I uphold my right and I see that many of the BS's are also doing the same. It has nothing to do with selfishness and everything to do with human feelings.

=^^= I respectfully disagree. "Feelings" mean little in the overall big picture. After all, most OP's never considered the immeasurably hurt feelings the innocent Betrayed would experience when they embarked on an A that changed their lives forever without the Betrayeds consent! I mean, think about it. Betrayeds THINK their marriage is good or at least OK in most situations and feel that any difficulty can be resolved in a committed relationship and then to find out that their spouse has breached that trust and violated their vows with someone boldly went into an A, knowing full well that the party was married to someone else but who didn't care, didn't care who was hurt or the feelings of innocent existing children...yet we have to care about OC...please. Now everything has changed...forever. Nothing is ever the same again. Never. The humiliation and embarrassment pales in comparison to the pain and sadness of loosing the exclusivity of the relationship and having the love of your life producing a child with someone else outside the marriage.

I think veterans of this kind of horror hold court on this site and it is as simple as that.

You have a right to your opinion, CM. I just stronly and completely disagree. And that is OK.

cm</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

BETTERFLY,
I can really understand why you are a betrayed spouse.
You have no idea why people have affairs, honey. It is not because they have low self esteem necessarily and because they are stupid. That is like saying the BS who suspects an affair but settles for HER leftovers is stupid or has low self esteem. Or the BS who takes a cheating spouse back is stupid and has low self worth. You are ignorant BF, plain and simple. You seem to think that as an OW and WS I am obligated to put you first simply because you are a BS. That I owe you anything, especially RESPECT simply because you are a BS. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. That isn't how life works, but if you are a BS then you already understand that life isn't always what ****you*** THINK it is now don't you?
Share a man to feel good about myself? I'm laughing at you BF. It took me over a year to shake this man loose, he kept pursing contact with me,not the other way around! If you knew what you were talking about and still made these comments, then fine. However you are just spewing your own ignorance because you know jack doo-doo about how long it took for me to get MM to accept the end of our long term affair and GO HOME to his wife and let me get on with my life.
You are a bitter BS and overall you give women a bad name. xow like me give ow a bad name! Please, I'm the steller ow. Your calling me stupid is like the pot calling the kettle black ~~ and THEN SOME <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> At least I am capable of learning and growing!

CM

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong> Please, I'm the steller ow. At least I am capable of learning and growing!

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good grief Ms. Stellar OW, why don't you just back down some...seems to me you've been itching for a fight for days now...whats crawled up your butt for goodness sakes...go back and read what you just wrote...I've always respected what you have had to say about your situation...until now

what is it you have learned? the fine art of mud slinging

not to excuse anyone else mud slinging of course

look at whats going on in the world around you.. this pettiness just pisses me off

Respect does have to be earned. That is the human condition, not the BS condition.

This is not a site for BS's only. It is a site for people rebuiding their marriages and that includes WS's. The fact that a person is both a ws and ow negates their right to be here? No, it does not.
This is not your site. I do believe the tow site is for tow and those who wish to participate in their conversations. I also believe there are boards out there strictly for the BS's but this isn't one of them. Wouldn't you like WS's to be members here or NO? They are not allowed to rebuild their marriages? Who would that leave this board for then...divorced BS's?

The argument of why this section of the board was created is old already and has been addressed a number of times in the recent past. I'm not going there yet again.

However, if someone is disrespectful of a poster on this board who is participating in a discussion and it is because the poster is an ow/ws, and the bs doesn't agree with what is being said and disrespectfully says so, then please do not expect to be treated like fine china in the dishwasher. Expect to be treated the way you treat others and nothing more.

So we agree to disagree and we're both okay with it.

CM

<small>[ March 19, 2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

DG,

Re-read the thread if you are confused about why I'm pissed off.
Steller by comparisson to what I read all over this board about the horrible ow and what they are doing to make the lives of the BS's here miserable. Chasing their husbands, lying about this or that, calling the WS and the BS, whatever the horror of the week is. I left my affair and my xmm. I don't call his house or chase after him, I don't call his BS and tell her all sorts of juicy tidbids, I don't want his money, I don't want his friendship and most certainly I don't want the affair anymore, something he can't say.

That is why I give OW a GOOD name rather than the ugly picture bf tried to paint. You want to talk about petty then talk to some of the obvious bitter posters, I'm not one of them.

I'm thanking GOD that my husband never resorted to this level of bitterness.

cm