how can you negotiate and successfully use the poja if the whole subject is an lb?? not that the poja is an lb, but when the topic being discussed is? what then?

i re-read the info on poja in the basic concepts and harley seems to be saying that if you can't reach an agreement that you're both enthusiastic about, do nothing. but in our case -- the question being whether oc should have contact or no contact with om -- doing nothing is exactly what h wants. so then if i bring it up again... well it's certainly not depositing any love units!

i'm trying to be understanding and trying to see things from his point of view and trying to discuss this with him in a "safe and pleasant" manner, but it still ends with both of us getting upset.

his stand is:
1) he never wants to see or talk to om again or have any sort of contact;
2) it won't be in any way beneficial for our son to have contact with om; and
3) if om is involved at all, he (hubby) is outta here!

i know he's speaking from a lot of hurt (which i caused <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ), but faced with an ultimatum like that, what room do i have to negotiate??

i was so encouraged by what everyone said in response to my last question, but i'm in a totally different place now. i feel like the whole thing is hopeless. how are we ever going to agree??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

please help.

amy

Amy,
Since this is a really hot subject and new to your hubby, your poja might be to wait awhile. You could say, Listen hubby not to lb or anything but this subject is really important to both of us so since we disagree right now how about we agree to table the issue (just thinking to ourselves about it, but not bringing it up) until xxxxxx date.

That way you are agreeing to "do nothing" but just for awhile. It relieves some pressure for both of you, and he won't be surprised when it comes up again. You may end up revisiting the issue several times until you arrive at a true poja, but this could solve it for right now.

I might remind you too (but don't remind your husband of this) that as time passes our feelings of pain, disgust, anger, etc diminish. Different rates for different people. Different answers for contact too. So maybe later one or both of you will feel differently about the situation and meanwhile you work on the foundation of your marriage so it will withstand what comes next. It's not a long-term do nothing, but this might be a solution for right now.

Just a thought.

Amy,

A couple questions:

Does OM HAVE to be involved? I realize that OM knows of your P, but does he really have to be in this little boy's life? And, if your answer to this is yes, then what is your reasoning for wanting OM involved? What would your S gain by having OM involved? If you truly want your M, can it survive at all if OM is involved?

Wish that I had some advice other than the questions above.

Tigger

aimee2 -

what you said is great advice and hopefully it'll work. i'm just afraid that if we decided to sit on this issue, when i do bring it up it'll just be the same thing all over again. or else i'll be afraid to bring it up, so won't, and end up resenting h on some level.

tigger -

good questions. i'll try to answer...

Does OM HAVE to be involved? I realize that OM knows of your P, but does he really have to be in this little boy's life? not neccessarily. and i've told h that i'm not dead-set on it, but i think it's worth at least discussing - in a calm, logical, non-emotionally-charged way, but that doesn't seem possible.

And, if your answer to this is yes, then what is your reasoning for wanting OM involved? possible benefits that i can see are:
1) s would grow up with at least some knowledge of where he came from, albeit he won't understand it for several years;
2) since our plan (as it sits right now) is to eventually tell s about his paternity, he won't have to deal with questions like, "why didn't my bio father want to see me?" or "why didn't you let him?", "why did you lie to me?";
3) om would like to be involved, though i'm not letting this be in any way a deciding factor. obviously if he didn't want anything to do with s, this wouldn't really be an issue;
4) s would grow up knowing and being loved by all involved and would know that it's alright for him to love everyone in return.

What would your S gain by having OM involved? again: knowledge, truth, and the genuine love of all those involved. but even as i write this, i think it may be the dreamer in me talking. part of me can't see how there can ever be the level of understanding and forgivness that would be required.

If you truly want your M, can it survive at all if OM is involved? i guess that's what it comes down to, eh. i really, really don't want to do anything to put my m at risk or to hurt h anymore than i have. but on the other hand, i can argue that if we're serious about fixing our m, shouldn't our goal be to get to a place where we're both secure enough and in love enough, etc, for om's involvement not to be a problem? again, maybe i'm too much of a dreamer. too naive.

amy

Amy,

I understand your point about the POJA when someone doesn't want to talk about a situation. In some ways there is nothing you can do.

But, I would like to point out to you that you don't have to decide on the role of OM in the babies life right now. What in my opinion you need to focus on is the role of your H in the babies life and in fact yours.

Now, don't get defensive about this. I know you want your H in your life and the babies life. But, what you may not be factoring in completely is that your H is very uncertain about his role in things. He has never been a father before. He never anticipated being in the situation of being the father to a child that wasn't biologically his but of his W. He really doesn't know how and what you are thinking, especially when you want to talk about OM's role in the babies life.

You need to understand that most of the men, K, Pops, and others have already had children and they are a bit older. Your H is 23. He isn't at his peak in physical maturity, nor emotional maturity. He is very uncertain about many things but is certain he still loves you and he is willing to be a father to this child when it is born.

BUT, I would guess he is not certain he can do so with the OM looking over his shoulder. He needs to get his feet on the ground about being a father BEFORE he can reasonably decide how much he can handle the OM in HIS own life.

Do you see what I am talking about? Now is not the time to make these decisions. Frankly the fetus could care less, and when the baby is born the baby could care less. They will respond to whomever takes care of them. I know, I know women look at this differently than us guys, but the reality is that for the first months and perhaps a year, the childs world is about themselves: not you, not your H, and not the man that fathered the child.

So my advice is to go very slowly with discussions of the OM's role in this. Your H has a lot to learn yet before he will be confident about being a father, or being your H. You will find out that you have a few things to learn about being a mother. Somethings you just have to experience, before you understand.

So I would suggest that POJA'ing this subject needs to go on hold for awhile.

God Bless,

JL

Not to rain on your parade, but your husbands position is not unreasonable. The very fact that he is willing to 1) forgive you and 2) accept and raise a child that is not his is exptionable. If you continue to try in include OM in some kind of quasi-father relationship your husband may bail.

If you consider this non-supportive, so what? It is you that have come to this forum for advice on your behavior.

jl -

no worries about me getting defensive. your words and advise are very much appreciated - you seem to being seeing things much more clearly than me!

you put things in perspective. even without the question of contact with om, this is still such a life-changing event and definitely not something my h and i had planned on. we didn't plan on having kids this soon and certainly not under these circumstances!

i have been trying really hard to be sensitive to my h through all this. even when conversation gets a little nasty i try to reassure him that he's the one i chose to be with and he's the one i chose to be this little boy's daddy. but he sees any mention of om being involved as contradictory and just an excuse for me to have om in my life. i'm not sure how to reassure him that that's not the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see what I am talking about? Now is not the time to make these decisions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i do see what you're talking about and i think i'm starting to agree about time. not only is the pain still fresh, the baby not even here, and an enthusiastic agreement not likely to be reached, but i think i'm also way too hormonal right now. some days i think i've become some sort of manic-depressive! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

thanks again for the advice... i think i'll be re-reading it several more times.

engineer bob -

i totally agree that h's position is not unreasonable... but neither is mine. that's not really what the poja is about though. we both need to agree on what we're going to do, especially in the case of a decision that'll have such huge implications on our lives and m.

my is h is exceptional. he is amazing. what he's willing to do shows just how much he's willing to sacrifice and risk for me and our m. he's shown the kind of character he has in his ability to even try to forgive me and love this baby. believe me, i am fully aware of what i have! but...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you consider this non-supportive, so what? It is you that have come to this forum for advice on your behavior.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yikes, bob, where did that come from? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> i don't know if you've read any of my other posts, but i sure hope i don't come across as unappreciative of others comments or as someone just looking for a fight. sorry if i have.

amy

Amy,

I know you don't how uncertain your H is, because you know the WHOLE story of how this occured and what you feel now. But, your H has no confidence in himself that he knows how you feel. He very likely was blindsided by the affair, hence the OM is a very real threat in his mind. Worse a threat he cannot gauge.

Further, if your H is a good husband to you and is a very good father to the baby, then his thinking why do we need OM in our lives? It is a far question.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have been trying really hard to be sensitive to my h through all this. even when conversation gets a little nasty i try to reassure him that he's the one i chose to be with and he's the one i chose to be this little boy's daddy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is very good. I will also point to you that you need to set boundaries with regard to his behavior. He has a right to his anger and fear, and pain, but he doesn't have a right to make you miserable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but he sees any mention of om being involved as contradictory and just an excuse for me to have om in my life. i'm not sure how to reassure him that that's not the case. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You cannot reassure him, that is the point. Life has to reassure him via your actions. He has to build confidence that he feels he can tell when you are feeling and thinking what you tell him. It is the trust thing Amy. It takes time and a new track record to set it straight. All you can do is be honest, time will have to take care of the rest.

I am sure this hard on you. Those hormones are raging right now.

You see the OM as a friend, and someone you made a mistake with. Your H sees him as a very real threat to his marriage to you. He knows you are going to be very emotionally tied to the new baby, and he fears that means you will stay tied to the OM via the baby. He won't believe otherwise until he sees how you act and behave when the baby comes.

That is why this subject is unlikely to get resolved until after the baby comes and probably for quite awhile after that. Momof5 mentioned a year and a half, and there situation was one where they already had children and indeed her H knew what it was like being in an affair. Still their situation is very unique with the sharing that goes on in their situation. I am always amazed when she talks about how they have worked things out.

Your H doesn't know these things, so he doesn't have much confidence. He is very on edge about this I can assure you. But, clearly he is willing to take the chance on the marriage.

Hang in there and keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Thats ok JL I am always amazed my self <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

AMETHYST,

JL is right, You know during the pregnancy, my husband and I did not even speak of om, very rarely, we were dealing with a baby and frankly he just wasnt so important at the time. I had intended on never ever speaking to him again, and frankly at he time wanted him as far away as posible. He had become nothing more than an intrusion in my life.
We are older and had 4 children already. My husband had every intention of being that babies father, but at the bginging he was leaving and wanted nothing to do with her. but as I went farther in the pregnancy he changd his mind, and when she was born he was showing her off to every one, He has been a loving father to her, and although om man has taught my daughter she has two dads , I think my husband will always hold a closer place in her heart.

Dont misunderstand me,, But om is a bit on the selfish side and he comes before every one, not just my child but his others as well, My husband puts all of us before him. The children will know and love him for that.
My husband also knows he had not treated me the way he should for many years. I havent always ben labled a ws [or as most here prefer ow] I was once a wife who was very devoted to her husband, stood by him through many, many affairs, In fact I remember spouting how could these women do this I would never never do something like this, it made me physically ill. I was ignored, I took care of the children, made dinner and hoped he came home to eat, instead i was sitting in a foriegn country praying he wasnt dead at 4 in the morning. Untill the last couple of years I never recieved birthday presents, anniversary, nothing, christmas I would buy my own so the kids wouldnt see dad being uncaring. I am not materialistic, so I didnt require lots of things but it would have been nice to be apreciated. I have had about 20 or more ddays, so I had a lot of anger , I resented him and had stopped caring. I would invite women who were the wives of the soldiers under my husband over, next I would know ,they would be sleeeping with him. I wouldnt tell any one, because I was ashamed and embarressed. Living in another country I had no family and we must uphold these standards, So this didnt happen to me over night, it happened over years.
om saw this and swooped right in. He was older and seemed to know all the right things. I fell for it, and now here I am.

I blame me dont get me wrong I am a grown woman, who lost her head for a while. My husband now is loving, attentive and caring. He listens to me and talks about every thing with me, he loves me, I feel that for the first time in years. He is better with the kids, he is the husband I always wanted.
And how he is able to have dinner with the om and work so closely with him, I have no idea, but he is doing it beautifully. I personaly think you should forget about om and not worry about it till later.
Its hard at first, but if you love your husband you will keep trying, but right now he doesnt give a crap about om and his rights, that might come later, it may not, but if you intend on staying married, right now you have to be there for your husband and pretend om is just nobody, dont bring it up, there is lots of time. concentrate on a healthy baby and marriage..

I dont want you to misunderstand, om and i do speak and talk about daughter, we are not mad at each other, we dont fight[but have] and our goal is for our daughter to grow up healthy and loved by us all. Om is not stupid either, he knows my husband has been there from day one and he was not. He knows he owes my husband alot more than he could ever pay, He now treates my husband with respect instead of being hateful about him all the time.
OM knows my husband does more for his child than he could or would ever do. But he does want to be a part of her life. But as his wife if he thought om should have never been in our daughters life, I would not have let him, I would have tried and prevented this. WE decided as a couple because we didnt want to lie to our children . It was a mutual decision. But at first husband made me handle all of it. Now he handles alot of it and shows a united front with me. Which goes along way to over come problems.

Amy -

I agree totally with Engineer Bob's first paragraph. (Not sure where that 2d para. came from!)

You don't seem to realize the perilous state your marriage is in at the moment, and the extraordinary willingness to work on it shown by your hubby. FOG???

A few months back two people in a similiar situation to yours were posting on this board. Their ids were something like butterflyemerging, (wife), and hubbywtoughdecision (husband). The hubby was willing to forgive his wife and raise the kid as his own, provided she DID NOT CONTACT THE OM AGAIN. The wife couldn't do this, felt she had to contact the OM again, and guess what? The hubby finally gave up. Last I know of, he was determined to divorce her. (I don't know whatever happened to them, but like everyone here I wish them both happiness, whatever paths their lives take.)

You might be able to salvage your marriage, but it's gonna take a lot of work, and some of what you will have to do will hurt. The people who developed the NO CONTACT rule didn't do it for bloody h*ll of it, but rather because they researched what behaviors are necessary for a marriage to survive.

You and your hubby need professional help to deal with this, sooner rather than later. If money is tight, please let the Hurleys (sp?) know this, or try emailing Penny, (aka Cerri). Her website is http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com .

(** Try it now! **)

I get the feeling you think there is some sort of magical "happy ending" to all this, where you, hubby, OM, and kid all live in blissful state of mutual respect, love and happiness. The real world doesn't work that way; you have some difficult, painful decisions to make. Good luck!

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: doofus ]</small>

Amy, not everything can or should be decided right now. As highly unlikely as it may seem, your H MAY change his mind later on with regards to a relationship between the OM and OC (IF AND WHEN he no longer perceives the OM as a threat to the M), and then the POJA may be possible. And furthermore, the whole subject MAY become moot, if the OM decides to fight for parental visitation, in which case, BOTH you and your H will have to deal with the OM by force if the laws in your State give him any rights.

In the meantime, please remember that both of you are still in marital recovery and trying to urgently resolve this issue may do more harm to it than good. So DON'T PUSH the POJA (on this subject) on him, otherwise you may end up pushing him too far.

doofus are you sure that's the right address for cerri it won't come up.

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: MALC ]</small>

The address is good MALC.

Just delete the period (.) after the .com.