MaryJanes got some excellent advice on her thread about how to handle finding receipts and items from the affair. I didn't want to interrupt there, but it is something that I confront every now and then -- I guess we all do.

My H has his original report card from 1st grade -- the man never throws away anything. So, we have a horrifying array of reminders all over the place from the affair.

I have been on vacation this week and started a garage cleaning project. Well, you can imagine ...

Like K and JL said, I know the A is over and I know that he was lying the whole time -- that was part of it. But, it drives me crazy that I am still going crazy over his infidelity and yet he seems to have moved on. We don't talk about the details anymore because he finds it uncomfortable. Although he is the one that made this mess, I find myself walking on eggshells trying to make him "comfortable".

What about my comfort? I am not comfortable with him having an OC. I am not comfortable knowing that he had an A. But it seems that the betrayed spouse swallows so much just to save the marriage.
Much more than the one who actually broke the vows.

Is it always this way, or is it because I am a female betrayed spouse? Are there male betrayed spouses out there who feel they are doing all the work to restore the marriage? Or when the betrayed spouse is a male does the wayward spouse (female) do the majority of the work?

I am trying to find out if women, because of our nurturing and "fixing" nature, are more likely regardless of the situation, to be the one that bends over backward to make everything right.

Thanks,
marie

Edited to correct the subject of the post

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: marieluvsrich ]</small>

I dont have an answer to that one, I can tell you when my husband cheated on me dozens of times, it was always my fault, and when I had an affair it was my fault, I worked then to improve my self and beg him not to do these things and I worked after my affair to make it better . But I can say now we both work equaly to make it better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

marie,

I think you will find that usually the BS does most of the work to restore the marriage, at least initially. However, at some point the WS needs to step up to the plate or the marriage will fail. If you read here for awhile you will see that neither person really escapes the pain of these events. It just shows up in different ways.

However, if you are feeling that you need to talk about the A with him, you should do so. Not LB, but be honest with him, and ask for what you need. Honesty works both ways and I can assure he isn't a mind reader. He also wouldn't mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> if you never brought the subject up again, but that won't heal your marriage.

If this is bothering you find a nonLB way to bring it up and do so. That would be my advice.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the replies Mom and JL.

Even though I know there is nothing that can ever truly justify my H's affair, I admit that there must have been something missing from our marriage that made him vulnerable. It is a real challenge to be married for a while and still make your spouse feel that he or she is the most exciting, intelligent, witty, loveable creature on the face of the earth.

In my case, I think my H was missing the type of worshipful love that you have when you just marry. But, when you work 10 hours a day, have children to take care of, bills to pay, repairs to make -- I admit it is sometimes so hard to find the special time to share.

Mom, I am sorry that you ended up having an A after your H's affairs. It is something that I thought about off and on, sometimes out of revenge but other times out of a desire to find someone who would make ME feel special and take the hurt away.

JL, my H becomes very defensive as soon as I say anything about our relationship. He becomes quiet and answers in one or two words or does not answer at all. He told me that he never knows where the conversation is going when I bring up our marriage, the OW and OC, so he becomes very guarded.

I is true that I have not yet mastered the art of not LBing while discussing the A. But if he would talk to me openly and honestly, I would probably be much better at it. When he gets quiet, I feel like he is not trying -- not meeting me halfway. Then, I get angry because HE created this situation and I am there trying to fix it and make it all better. Makes me feel a bit like an idiot sometimes for working so hard when he doesn't seem to work at it.

You said something very interesting. "Neither person escapes the pain, it just shows up in different ways."

I have watched my H and cannot figure out any suffering that he is going through -- unless it is the pain of not being able to raise his OC (we do not have contact because of inability of adults to get along). But, I truly don't see any pain that he goes through about the infidelity.

Meanwhile, I suffer regularly with feelings of humiliation, regret, sadness, inadequacy -- you name it, I go through it. What I want most of all is for him to just put his arms around me and say "I'm sorry. I know I hurt you, it wasn't what I intended to do, and I promise to do everything I can to make it up to you".

Don't get me wrong, he does make it up to me with his actions. I am 150% sure that he is committed to our marriage and trying to be more attentive to my needs. But, he does not vocalize. He feels that saying "sorry" over and over again is like begging. And, he tells me that he said "sorry" when I discovered the whole situation.

I don't see it as begging -- I see it as reassurance and it would do a lot to smooth over my feelings.

As you can see, this is a topic that I think about a lot! Sorry if I am rambling and hope I make sense.

Thanks,
marie

I know how you feel.

My H has not done nearly enough to help me feel I want to still be with him after A.

I am now two plus years out since discovery. If anything, things are far worse than when I first found out.

And why? Because H hasn't comforted me or made me feel safe in this relationship.

Oh, he plays with the kids, does chores, keeps the yard looking good, cleans the house, etc.

But, he has gone through 3 therapists, the last one STeve Harley, and quit even when I have begged him to continue.

He has continued seeing OC without my joint agreement and taken advantage of me by doing what he wanted to do in terms of seeing OC.

He has gotten angry at me, very cold and hostile and withdrawing, because I have become aloof and angry with his lack of caring about how I feel about his decisions about visitation.

He was supposed to stop any contact with OW, and not pick up OC, even with visits I agreed to, if OW was there at pickup. I found out he has had brief contact with OW at pickups, didn't stop pick up due to OW's presence, and I think still communicates via email. NOw, this is supposed to make me feel wanted, safe, desired?

He is now angry at me because with STeve's support, I filed for legal separation. I had had enough. His behavior of total disregard for me and what I need caused me to start to hate him and rage at him. It was not good. I do not know if my love for him can come back.

Now, he is angry I filed. Said I was the one who filed-not him. NO, he didn;t file, but just did so many things to tell me I didn't matter that he forced me to. I don't think this marriage can be saved.

I had hoped H would wake up and see what he may lose. He has showed no regret, no more shame, in fact he still defends his actions and accuses me of creating this mess of separation we are now in. We went to our first court appearance and he acted as if it was a walk in the park. IF only he would just be real to me, speak of how he feels, tell me of any pain he may feel contemplating divorce and breaking up our family--maybe, just maybe we could return to counseling and start anew.

But, no, he has not. ANd our separation is going and going and going. I don't see him waking up, I don't see him changing his mind, I see us breaking up after what the judge in court referred to as a "long term marriage."

Watching all the couples in their divorce process in court was so sad-and I visualized us looking much the same.

The A and OC has done this to us-and my H is finishing the picture.

So, yes, I understand your pain, and think the WS should work all the time to help the BS feel good, safe, secure. THat is what my H doesn't get. He still doesn't realize that I go through his belongings and check his mail, etc. because he destroyed my trust by his actions-and now, he doesn't honor his committments with me. I didn't break our long standing trust, he did.ANd yet he is mad at me because I check. He projects out his rage. I just wonder why doesn't he deal with his own anger at his reckless behavior and truly start to heal?

Marie,

I am no expert on this and especially the issue of OC's and such, but I thought I would toss in my thoughts on your response and see if it will incite some more responses from those with experience in this matter.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, my H becomes very defensive as soon as I say anything about our relationship. He becomes quiet and answers in one or two words or does not answer at all. He told me that he never knows where the conversation is going when I bring up our marriage, the OW and OC, so he becomes very guarded.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simple solution to this, tell him where this conversation is going. Now you may be like my W. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She often starts me out in sort of the middle of the conversation, so that I don't know where it is coming from or even all of the players, and then I get to play 20 questions, which drives her crazy. Now I appreciate that she thinks I am smart enough to read her mind (nice to be thought of as that smart), but I am not that smart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So how to do what I said? Being a guy and a problem solver, I feel much better when approached by my W with the idea that this is something she is working on, but needs my help in solving the problem. That sort of takes the pressure off,and it puts us on the same side of the issue.

So I would suggest that you approach your H with a specific (very specific issue), define it/frame it for him. Offer up what you have tried to solve or address it, and then ask him if he has some ideas or is there something he thinks he can do to help YOU. Then the two of you agree (POJA rears it head here) on a course of action, a way to check or encourage each other if things slow a bit, and then a deep "thank you" from you to him. I think I can offer an example later in this post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I is true that I have not yet mastered the art of not LBing while discussing the A. But if he would talk to me openly and honestly, I would probably be much better at it. When he gets quiet, I feel like he is not trying -- not meeting me halfway. Then, I get angry because HE created this situation and I am there trying to fix it and make it all better. Makes me feel a bit like an idiot sometimes for working so hard when he doesn't seem to work at it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! expectations and disrespectful judgements read about them in the articles on this site. You expect him to act as you would if you were in his place, and you judge his inability or unwillingness to act as you would as NOT WORKING ON IT.
And remember nothing shuts openness down faster than LB's.

Quiet is what men do when something is deeply troubling them. If you want to talk to him about the A, talk to him about something he can do something about. I know (I learned it here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that women like to talk at/about/and through issues. Must of us guys don't. When I am deeply troubled or worried, I get very quiet and withdraw. It can be professional problem, a business problem,or a personal problem. I am not a talker.

If you want to engage your H, look at the A in the third person, your feelings in the third person, and invite your H to join you in looking at something or an issue in the third person. What would he do IF... Then listen to him, don't debate him, just ask him yet another question, but don't get emotional. He doesn't want to hurt you further and he will shut up. Why? Men hate hurting women,and we know we cannot play in their conversation game at the level they like.

Also,if you ask him about his feelings or something along those lines, emotions, just sit there until he answers. It may take minutes for him to respond. I once heard it explained, that since men don't often talk about their emotions or feelings, they really don't have the word patterns already form to respond quickly to such topics. Ask them about work, cars, computers, something they are used to discussing and the answers come much faster.

So ask and just sit, the silence will both give him time to formulate the words and prod him as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said something very interesting. "Neither person escapes the pain, it just shows up in different ways."

I have watched my H and cannot figure out any suffering that he is going through -- unless it is the pain of not being able to raise his OC (we do not have contact because of inability of adults to get along). But, I truly don't see any pain that he goes through about the infidelity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again a disrespectful judgement. You don't know what is going on in his head (he is pretty quiet right?). You don't know what he feels knowing he hurt you, lost your trust, ruined his reputation, brought another person onto this planet and doesn't really care for it. You don't know what he will feel as the years go by. But, if he is any kind of a human being he will deeply regret hurting you, this child, and his loses. That is my bet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meanwhile, I suffer regularly with feelings of humiliation, regret, sadness, inadequacy -- you name it, I go through it. What I want most of all is for him to just put his arms around me and say "I'm sorry. I know I hurt you, it wasn't what I intended to do, and I promise to do everything I can to make it up to you".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want to hear it your way, not the way he is trying to tell you these things, right? Do you know why Harley has this issue of needs? Because we often meet our spouses needs in a way we would like ours met, which IS NOT the way the spouse needs to have them met. If you really need to hear certain things from him, you need to tell him how you want him to show his remorse. Read your paragraph below.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't get me wrong, he does make it up to me with his actions. I am 150% sure that he is committed to our marriage and trying to be more attentive to my needs. But, he does not vocalize. He feels that saying "sorry" over and over again is like begging. And, he tells me that he said "sorry" when I discovered the whole situation.

I don't see it as begging -- I see it as reassurance and it would do a lot to smooth over my feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! you need reassurance. I very good problem and issue to discuss with him. Frame the problem: I need reassurance because... Discuss what you have tried to do you reassure yourself. Discuss what you feel he has been doing to reassure you. Then state that you still have these issues. Here is what I think I need from you. What do you think? Is there something else that you would prefer to do or something I have forgotten that you could help me with?

The point is that this becomes a discussion, not a debate, not a list of accusations, but sort of two people sitting drinking coffee examining a problem and looking for the best solution that fits both people.

Do you see what I mean?

I do hope that something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,

JL

mariel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mom, I am sorry that you ended up having an A after your H's affairs. It is something that I thought about off and on, sometimes out of revenge but other times out of a desire to find someone who would make ME feel special and take the hurt away.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">funny I never once thought of revenge and wanted to sleep with someone for the sake of doing it, I dont think I could have and while I know how I got to where I am today, I do wish I had made better choices... It wasnt something planned or something I had ever dreamed of doing, It was however not a first for om and something he saw in me, hurt, sadness maybe, I dont know but he knew all the right things to say and I ended up doing what I hated other women for doing to me.. Life is funny that way, who would think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Dear Unhappy Wife,

I am so sorry that you and your H are nseparating. It sounds like you have truly tried for two years to work things out.

May I only suggest one thing to you. It sounds like your H is unable to deal with no contact and wants to be in the OC's life. Believe me I understand how painful that is for you. In the beginning, I did not want anything to do with the OC.

But my H and I have talked this out and I came to the understanding that his desire to see the OC has absolutely nothing to do with his wanting to get back together with the OW. From the beginning, my H wanted to bring the OC to our home for visits. At first, I could not bring myself to accept that, but I recognized that his need was so strong he would never be happy without trying contact.

And so, even though I was beaten and sad and insecure, I told him that I would trust him to visit the OC. He took the child out on his own for a while and kept those visits separate from our life until we reached the point where I could handle them. We then decided to try visits with the OC together.

I am not going to say that I ran with open arms, but a child is a child and she definitely softened my heart. It took a lot of work to look at her as a child and NOT a reminder of an affair.

But I think it was important for my H to see that I was willing to also meet his needs halfway. I think it was also a sign to him that I had forgiven him and was trying to move forward.

If your H's need to see the child occasionally is so strong, have you considered giving it a try just to see how it goes? Or giving your blessing to his private visits just so it will relieve the tension?

I don't blame you for being upset that he has contact with the OW after you have agreed there would be no contact. But, if you got more involved you would have the opportunity to make sure that the OW's contact was eliminated.

I hope that you can find a way to give your marriage another try. Although the toll of two years of suffering must be immense, you sound like you are so committed and that you and your H have both endured a great deal to try to save the marriage.

Best of luck to you. Sending prayers your way,
marie

Wow, JL!

You have given me so much to think about and homework assignments too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It is wonderful that there are men on this forum because I believe you are so right -- we have a different way of thinking and communicating.

I know that I have been guilty of LBing. But, until I read your post, I did not see that I have also been guilty of disrespectful judgements. I DO debate my H -- not talk with him. I DO open the conversation in the middle, start towards the end, and then back up to the beginning. I KNOW what is in my mind -- but my H does not.

I went back and read some of the Harley principles again. I read them in the beginning, but I think you are so full of confusion, anger, pain -- that they don't really register the first time. Now I can begin to see what I am doing wrong.

I am going to talk to my H tonight. But, like you said, I am first going to prepare what I am going to say, focus on one specific issue, and seek his advice on how to help with it.

This paragraph you wrote really hit hard:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You want to hear it your way, not the way he is trying to tell you these things, right? Do you know why Harley has this issue of needs? Because we often meet our spouses needs in a way we would like ours met, which IS NOT the way the spouse needs to have them met. If you really need to hear certain things from him, you need to tell him how you want him to show his remorse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H gets maddest during our little "debates" when he says something that, in his view is a bold proclamation of his commitment to our marriage, and I make a callous remark like "and that's supposed to be enough after all that has happened". During those arguments he says almost exactly what you have written -- that I have to have everything the way I want it or it is not good enough.

Tears came to my eyes when I read what you wrote because I realized that in my quest to be comforted exactly the way I want, according to my standards, I have been ignoring the many signals that he has sent that clearly show he is sorry and he is committed. He is probably so frustrated because he has been trying and it is not yielding the results that he hoped either.

Thank you also for pointing out that, since I don't read minds and my H is a quiet guy, I have no idea of the pain and sadness that is living deep inside of him. I know that he NEVER wanted to have a child that he could not raise. He is the product of a disastrous family with an abusive father. Children and raising them as best as he can is a big priority with him. So, I know it hurts him that he has a child out there in the world that he isn't nurturing. Women suffer loudly. Because men suffer quietly, we sometimes get the impression that you guys are not suffering at all. Very presumptuous and very wrong.

I am so excited about the insight that I have gained on this issue. My lack of comfort has been the one big stumbling block to my recovery. You are so advanced in your thinking and understanding -- I hope your wife appreciates the gem that she has in you!

I will let you know how it goes with my H.

Thank you so much.
marie

Dear mom of five,

I did not mean to imply that you might have had an affair for revenge. When I first found out about my H's affair, I thought of the nice men I have met while married. I would never have once considered any affair, even in my worst moments when my H had done things that would make me want to kill him.

But, then I started to think about how devastated he would be if I had an affair. It was tempting -- for about 20 seconds. Then I realized that I would just be making a bigger mess of our lives than already existed.

There is something to be said, though, for having someone make you feel special and to concentrate on you alone. That would have been the one thing that would have made me weak enough to fall into an affair myself, after discovering my H's infidelity.

Life is funny, though, as you said. Your example of having been a betrayed spouse and then a wayward spouse shows clearly that life happens sometimes. It is not something that we plan specifically, but we make certain choices based on our feelings at the moment. Later on, in a different moment, they might no longer be appropriate choices -- but they have already been made.

I try to accept that we are not perfect and to deal with the mistakes that both my H and I have made. Although I have not had an A, I have manifested other behaviours that made my H unhappy -- of that I am sure.

Thanks for reply,
marie

marie,

Don't have much to add to JL's excellent post. If you're still unsure about lovebusters, I would suggest buying the book. The first time I read through it I said "my God, so this is how my wife sees me". As JL said, try to put yourself in either your husband's shoes or that of a impartial 3rd party observer---it'll help you curve some of these all-to-natural tendencies.

Dear Marie,

I hear your suggestions, but I cannot do what you say, or rather, I have. I am so tired of being told by people to accept visitation and OC visits and give it a try to keep marriage.

What about H giving it a try to not do visits to keep marriage? Marie, do you have children? If so, how has that been on your kids? What do people say about this OC in your life?

The fact is, as Steve Harley has noted with me, we have tried it my H's way for two years. He has done visits, both with and without my consent. I have even agreed to minimal visits against my better sense and what I really felt o.k with.
It hasn't mattered and it has not changed things for the better. Instead, H has broken his promises, still had some contact with OW, ups the ante to see OC way beyond what I am comfortable with for now, and does things anyway. He has love busted me over and over, and demands things about this over and over. Doing it his way has put us in the state we are in---separation.Separation after more than 25 years together. Is that sad or what?

Now, I, after a suggestion from Steve Harley, asked H very benignly if he would try something different, give up visitst with OC while we work on marriage.Tell him we are too fragile to consider this, -- a month ago, told him his way, as Steve says he has done for two years, has brought us nearing divorce. He wouldn't even consider doing it unless I put a short time frame on it-and I said I had no time frame. Told him to call Steve to discuss time frame-and guess what? He hasn't called him.

My H and his plan of contact and visitation has killed our marriage. And so has OW, who makes no bones that regardless of how I feel or how it affects us or our family, she will support H in seeing OC any time, anywhere. NOw, which woman is H feeling catered to and is catering to? Which woman's feelings matter more to him? Which relationship apparently does he care more for?

My H is mad since I filed for separation.Blaming me for wanting to split.What he fails to see is his behavior, his love busters, his incessant demands did it. I am merely doing what he set up.

Can't you see that, Marie and others?

Marie,

I hope your conversation goes well tonight. If it doesn't don't give up, this stuff takes practice.

As for my "advanced" thinking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , it is due to being on this site for so long, and people like K and many of the women here. I have learned alot from them, and from the articles on this site. Believe me when I came here, I had a lot of "learning" to do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> In fact, I still feel as if I am "just learning" many things.

Good Luck and God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>Now, I, after a suggestion from Steve Harley, asked H very benignly if he would try something different, give up visitst with OC while we work on marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Overall I think Marriage Builders and Steve Harley have great ideas on how to save a marriage.

I have noticed on thing though, that bothers me greatly. It seems to me that when a man has an A, and ends up with an OC, visitation is a problem and he often recommends NC with the OC so he can save his marriage.

On the other hand, not once hace I ever heard anyone on this forum suggest that a WW institute NC with her OC (which would mean giving up the OC).

Why is it different with a man? Sorry but in my opinion, no matter how the child came to this earth, both parents are responsible and should be a part of that childs life. I respect the men who insist that they be a part of the OCs life, and refuse to institute NC. What kind of man would turn his back on his child?

It seems to be pretty common here for people to expect a betrayed H to accept an OC, but conversly it seems pretty common for a betrayed wife to be able to insist that the OC not be a part of their lives. I think that is just plain wrong.
Michael

unhappy wife

I am curious, I have never heard you speak a kind word about your husband, every post has always been filled with anger, now maybe you vent here so you dont at home, alot of us do, But is it possible, while husband is not considering your feelings and love busting that you may be guilty of the same ?

You mentioned what others think, If you love your husband does it really matter what others think ?

I am afraid given an ultimatum over a child you have created, some of us are not able to choose any thing but our child. You may be signing away your marriage, Because he is not able to give up his child. Think of it this way. Can you give up one of your children if someone asked you to for him ? It doesnt sound like he wants the ow just his child.

I know given the choice I would not give my child up for any one, She is a child and needs her mother and vise versa. How do you enter a childs life and then say oh I am sorry I cant do this any more your on your own.. Thats quite alot to ask. as is asking you to accept the child, But unfortunately it doesnt sound like he will do it. WHich means you will end up divorced. 25 years is a long time are you sure you want that. It is obvious you still love him, or you wouldnt be so angry, you would feel indifferent.

What he fails to see is his behavior, his love busters, his incessant demands did it. I am merely doing what he set up.
Is it possible your both determined to have your own way instead of trying to find a mutual agreement to make it work ? Again I am just curious, I am not trying to hurt you just responding to what you wrote. I wish you well and hope this works for you and you come to a better place in your life where you dont hurt as much.

Marie

I didnt think any thing of it. I agree we make choices for the wrong reasons, I have wondered how does a sart intelligent woman who does not believe in infedelity get so wrapped up in someone she waste years of her life!? I dont have an answer. I suprised my self. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think it came to the fact that we spent more time with each other than with our spouses, for a very long time, we had seperate lives and it was meeting all our needs.
I never knew how much our needs controlled us, it is rather scary I think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Michaelindallas,

Well, I am a FWW who had an OC which my H is raising as ours(full knowledge that OC is from the A) and HE didn't want me to give the child up for adoption, as well as xOM is/was not fit to raise this child! How do I know that, well on D-day his true nature came out in the attack on my H and xOM's threat to my H's life! Therefore, he's never even known of the P, let alone Abbi's birth! My H and I discussed many things, from abortion to adoption to keeping the baby as our own child! We decided TOGETHER to keep her and are VERY happy with our decision for full contact w/OC, but NC w/xOM!

My last statement is the reason for the WH to go NC w/OC as the xOW can/will/does cause problems for the married couple to rebuild their M, using the OC as the pawn in her NASTY game! If they can all try to act like adults, then it can and does work, but that's not always the case. Yes, the OC is the innocent in ALL of this, but when the xOW is using this child to either get back at the MM for staying in his M, or to try to get the MM back, there is very good cause to go NC!

There are cases here where the WW has contact w/OM for the sake of the OC, but everyone's stories are different. There are also cases where there is joint custody, or, in one specific case where the WH has FULL custody of the 2OC! It all depends on how fragile the M is and how hard the M couple wants to repair their M! OW have full knowledge, at least by the time the baby is born, that this man is M'd and they may be looking at raising this child with an absentee father who only pays CS! You can't force anyone to do what they don't want to, and if these WH's have chosen NC to repair their M's it doesn't make them awful, it makes them a person who wants to keep their M, and is willing to try!

Until you are actually in this position, it is easy to say what is right and wrong, and what you should feel! Sorry if this sounds harsh, and sorry if I stepped on any toes, but it's never a cut and dry situation, and no two people will respond the same in ANY given situation! Look at all the children who DON'T receive CS from fathers that their mothers were married to! At least those here w/NC are paying CS! So what if they want the DNA test first, look at shows like the Maury show where the girl had over 4 guys tested, and swore each time it was this guy, and she STILL doesn't know who the father is! These parents ("fathers") are stepping up to the plate and supporting the OC in the best way they can! And, what of the children of the M? They are used to having Daddy around all the time, now he has to divide his time between them and another "family"? Especially when the xOW won't let xMM's family near their child?

I agree with the Harleys in that if you want your M to be rebuilt, and having contact w/OC is causing problems, go NC till it can be worked out! It's not a bad thing, it's what works! I'm sorry, but often sides do need to be taken in these situations, and someone will be hurt, but that's also life!

OK, I'm done now, and will go back to my corner and hide <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tigger

This must be the place for me because I feel so much of what is written here. My H's OW is 5 1/2 months pregnant with his child. At first she wanted to put the baby up for adoption. Now she doesn't know. I found out abut their A about 4 weeks ago and I have surprised myself with how well I'm taking it all in. (The first day I was a basketcase.) I pray lots and lots. Both the OW and my H are trying not to have contact and we all want for our marriage to be repaired. I would like to adopt the baby girl, but my H thinks we shouldn't push. OW lives in another state so they only have contact by phone or email. He suggested they only contact by email for awhile; just so he can check on the status of the pregnancy. He has faltered and called her 2 times. Only once has she been home though. She is very young (22) and is living with her parents. Her father is not very supportive. My husband is living about 45 minutes away with his parents. We talk daily. He calls our D every night and reads to her and prays with her. My oldest D from a previous relationship hates his guts and never wants us to be together. He was abusive to us many years ago and went to both group and individual counseling. He is also on probation for that abuse. Am I crazy for wanting and trying to work things out? I don;t have much support for reconciling with him from my family. I do from my church and his family. We are going to a love, sex, and marriage seminar together tonight at a local church and he said he would go to Retrouvaille with me. The next one is not until July though. Any thuoghts?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I am a FWW who had an OC which my H is raising as ours(full knowledge that OC is from the A) and HE didn't want me to give the child up for adoption, as well as xOM is/was not fit to raise this child! How do I know that, well on D-day his true nature came out in the attack on my H and xOM's threat to my H's life! Therefore, he's never even known of the P, let alone Abbi's birth! My H and I discussed many things, from abortion to adoption to keeping the baby as our own child! We decided TOGETHER to keep her and are VERY happy with our decision for full contact w/OC, but NC w/xOM!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tigger, I hope you are thankful for the H you have. Not many men would have taken that on. You are lucky, and you were able to work things out, jointly, with your H. But thats not really what I am talking about. I am talking about a man who knows about the OC, and choses not to have contact. I don't like the double standard of MB on this issue. No one, from Steve Harley to the newest member of MB, would have expected you to give up your child, or institute NC with your child to save your M. Suppose your H had wanted you to give up your child? Would you have done it? Or would you have chosen your child over your M?

Sorry, but I disagree with you. When a parent is emotionally and financially able to be a part of a childs life, then they should be. I don't care if it causes problems. For me personally, I would be a part of my child's life, no matter what. If that caused me to loose my W, so be it.

But, that's not really the point. If a man or a woman chooses to insitute NC to save their M, fine. They have made a choice that their M is more important than their child. I understand that decision, though I disagree with it. In the end though, that's not so much what I am talking about. What bothers me is the expectation that a man should have to insitute NC with an OC, without a corresponding expectation that a woman should do the same. No one would ever expect woman to not be a part of their child's life, even if it meant the destruction of their M, so why is it ok to expect a man to not be a part of their child's life?
Michael

Michaelindallas

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Suppose your H had wanted you to give up your child? Would you have done it? Or would you have chosen your child over your M? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sorta answered this question below....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H and I discussed many things, from abortion to adoption to keeping the baby as our own child! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....but to give you a little further info, I know the pain of giving a child up for adoption, but would have done it again to save my M!

I also stand by my advice that I often give to new WW's on this board of giving the child up for adoption! I have never seen anyone on this board demand that the WH have no contact, and it's often AGREED by both H and W through POJA to either have contact or no contact.

And last but certainly not least, I do appreciate my H VERY much for sticking with our M, and accepting my D as OURS!!!! I don't need anyone to tell me how much he's done just by staying in our M, and I would support him if the tables were turned, no matter what his decision would have been(contact or no contact). But, like I said, it's hard to say what you would do unless you were living in our shoes! Oh, and one more thing, my H said that if I ever cheated on him, he'd leave me right then and there, even knowing that he'd been the WS himself! Now, almost 3 yrs. later, raising the OC himself, he's still here, and THAT'S what counts in the end.

Tigger

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phrusseltn,

I wanted to welcome you to this board, and the best advice I can offer you right now is read up on the principles on this site! They are VERY helpful, and many have had success with implimenting the tools offered here! Have you discussed these tools with your H? As for the support of your family for reconsiliation w/your WH, I don't have much to offer. Just continue to work together w/your H to rebuild this M, and keep the lines of communication open in all regards.

Again, welcome to the boards.

Tigger

That's right tigger demands get MBers nowhere... Demands are one of the 5 top Love Busters mentioned in the Basic Concepts of this website...