michaelindallas,
I agree with you to a point actuallly>however, A marriage IS the most important commitment I think. MY H is having OC in Aug. and he chose to give up our marriage for the OC. I told him we could discuss custody and that we would work something out, but he thinks he needs to be a full time dad. Now the OW was married, now divorced, and only gets her 2.5 year old son every other weekend. SO her son does not have a full time mom, yet my WH wants to be a full time dad to the child that he had no business creating. This is why I don't necessarily think it is right for my WH to have NC when the OW would have to raise the child and she was married too, BUT I suggested adoption and they both said no. I honestly thought that that would be the best FOR the child, so the child wouldn't be in a mess and so the OW's other son wouldn't have to know where his sister came from but it is no longer my decision or my issue. I do think that you are right though, in that it is double standard to say NC for WH and then let WW raise the child. I think the best thing would be either joint or NC for either. I think I could accept OC if that came about and if I felt God was leading me that way, but I would not accept any contact between WH and OW.

MinD (MichaelinDallas):
I thought about this for a while and decided to try to give my thoughts on what is perceived to be a "double standard"....

When a WW creates the OC, the Married Couple gets the choice of: a. ending the marriage, b. making the OM pay via through courts/paternity suit/CS and OM involvement or c. accept the OC and raise the child as his own with no OM involvement at all.

If a WH creates the OC the Married couple's choices are:
a. being involved or b. ending the marriage. In this case, the BS doesn't get the "luxury" (If I even may use this term in this context) of not allowing the OW's involvement in their lives. The BS doesn't get to claim the child as her own to minimize the OW's damage to their marriage (If the ex-ow is not being an adult...and again, Tigger came up with excellent point of all the variables here.)The BS has to live with the fact that she has no rights whatsoever when it comes to the OC. In some cases, when the betrayed spouse is the male, he can choose to father the child and keep OM out of their lives and marriages and he is "legally" the dad. (Unless Paternity suit follows).

What I wouldn't give for the ability to be able to claim my H's OC as my own and not have ex-ow involved in our lives. But that's kind of a hard thing to do, isn't? So the next best thing is to adhere to marriagebuilders principles and use the POJA. In our case, it was pretty much decided by my Husband that NC was the way he wanted to go. Not only he wanted to adopt out his "half" of the OC, the ex-ow in our case try to force the issue and essentially LB'ed her way out of visitation for her child by trying to force the issue.

There are no easy answers for this, but from my own research and counsel with Jenn Harley and my own Marriage counseling with my husband, marriages with NO Contact with the OM/OW/OC are stronger and weather it better. Of course, we are financially obligated, that is a given. But we are not obligated beyond that.

I had to think, had my H had a long term affair that spanned years (as some here have had to work with) I would have had to think about contact with OC as there are other factors of time/involvement/etc. But in our case, the child was conceived out of a few quickies and the brief affair was ended before Mr."T" knew that ex-ow was pregnant. Mr. "T" does not wish to co-parent a child with someone he barely knows as a person, much less a piece of A$$.

Right or wrong, they (ex-ow and Mr."T") had to make some tough choices and now are both living out the results of the consequences of their actions. I don't begrudge the innocent child, but there are other innocent children that were affected also. But that's for another debate that's like flogging a dead horse....there are always going to be different sides/opinions etc.

You have yours, I have mine and you have the right to yours.

I asked Mr."T" about all this and he said and I quote, "I don't have to answer to anybody but God and my wife for the decisions I make, plus OC one day if and when she's ready to contact me about the choices I made." It boils down to that....

There is no one-size-fits-all for this delicate situation and what works for one couple, doesn't necesarily works for another....

Peace,
Twiisty

Dear Unhappy Wife,

I am sorry if my post added in any way to your pain. You sounded so tormented and you have been married such a long time -- I was compelled to suggest that you try to save your marriage. But, you have done all the right things, including counselling, so I really did not have the right to comment. Please forgive me for upsetting you.

I have been suffering with infertility problems for a very long time and I can only imagine how difficult it must be for you to explain to your children where the OC came from. It is still embarrassing to explain to some adults, but for children, even more difficult.

And you are absolutely right -- your feelings are not less important than your H's. If you have searched your heart and you cannot live with this situation, then you owe it to yourself to make your own happiness.

My situation is quite different -- my H is not choosing between children of the marriage and a child with the OC. But, I have the added heartache of my H having his first child with another woman. It took a lot of novenas and a number of bottles of cheap wine to deal with that one.

Something about your H's position doesn't make much sense. If he is concerned about nurturing the OC, why would he be less concerned about being a full-time father to your children? Has he explained that to you?

It is not very clear to me what his reasoning is for wanting to strengthen his relationship with the OC at the cost of losing his relationship with your children. But I can understand how that would be an intolerable situation for you.

I don't think it was unreasonable for you to ask for a moratorium on contact until you could strengthen your marriage a bit. Affairs take their toll. But, when there is an OC and you are saddled with another woman in your relationship, it takes time to come to grips with that.

I just want you to know, Unhappy Wife, that I fully agree with you -- you do not have to place your needs at the bottom of the barrel just to save your marriage. Both of you should be striving to meet each other's needs and to come up with mediated solutions. If you were unable to do so with Dr. Harley then I guess you have very good reason to separate.

May I just add that, even though 25 years is a long time, if you can't make things work, there will be someone else who will bring you joy and make you feel special again. God does not just send one person for us. Our mission, when relationships are cut short, is to find some of those others who are waiting for us.

After two years of torturing yourself, I only hope that you find some peace, that you start to look at your options, and that you find the window God has opened for you when he closed the door.

I will continue to pray for you and I hope things will work out for you,
marie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twiisty:
<strong>When a WW creates the OC, the Married Couple gets the choice of: a. ending the marriage, b. making the OM pay via through courts/paternity suit/CS and OM involvement or c. accept the OC and raise the child as his own with no OM involvement at all.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I agree those are all possibilities, option C is not really just the choice of the BH and the WW. The OM has a say too. Unless you never tell him about the P (which is totally wrong) he will have a choice as to whether or not he is a part of that childs life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If a WH creates the OC the Married couple's choices are:
a. being involved or b. ending the marriage. In this case, the BS doesn't get the "luxury" (If I even may use this term in this context) of not allowing the OW's involvement in their lives. The BS doesn't get to claim the child as her own to minimize the OW's damage to their marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not? Again, double standard I say. If a male BS has the option of claiming the OC as thier own, why does a female not have that option. The only reason would be if the WW were dishonest, and did not admit to the father (and like it or not, the OM is that father).

The only thing that makes it different is the fact that a woman can make the choice of not telling the father that he will have a baby.

Sorry but I think it is morally reprehensible to not tell a man that he is going to have a child. If you do tell him and then ask him not to be a part of that childs life, he may or may not accept. But if he wants to be a part of the childs life, he should be, end of discussion.

Sorry but when you have an A, there are consequences. If you bring a child into this world, there are also consequences. One of those consequences is, unless a parent abandones responsiblity, you will have to deal with the father or mother of your child for the rest of your life, since being a parent is a lifetime deal.

I have a problem with the fact that often on this forum no one accepts that it may be right thing for an OM to accept his responsibility for an OC. I think part of the reason for this is it makes it harder for both the WW and BH. It would be easier for the OM to not step up. But when he does want to do the right thing, well then maybe a part of you thinks maybe he was not such a bad guy.
Michael

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Ok I am getting really strong feelings on these statements because I guess it is so fresh. I completely agree with twiisty's answers because I am BW and my H's OW said that no way would I be able to help raise the child and without OW's "approval" I would not be able to adopt the child or do anything about it. So while I am the one who is wounded in all of this, as well as OW's BS and 2.5 year old son that she gave up custody of except every other weekend, the 3 of us (me, Ow's BS and Ow's son) are the ones who ultimately suffer. My WH wants to be a part of the OC's life. And I would be willing to help raise the OC I THINK, but not with OW the way she is and OW desperately wants my H. She said that she is pregnant so she has to have him- well what about her other son?!?!? This is why I think Harley recommends NC- because it is NOT my fault that my WH had an A that produced a OC, and my WH's commitment was to God, then me, then OUR children...he was responsible to me as his W and that should be of most importance in his Mind.and just like twiisty mentioned about WH's being full time dads to their own children- i want to know why OW and WH are so bent on being full time parents to this OC that should not have even been conceived (and I KNOW it is not the child's fault!!) when OW left her other child because of what she did with MY H. Isn't that unfair to her 1st child? That is why I really wanted them to consider adoption because there are millions of couples who really WANT a child and are responsible enough to handle it. SO while I, with lots of prayer, conversation and healing, would possibly be willing to help with OC (I would be more willing if we could adopt her- but again, I don't get that choice) , I don't feel it is my "duty" to put the OC before my marriage. Michaelindallas you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a problem with the fact that often on this forum no one accepts that it may be right thing for an OM to accept his responsibility for an OC. I think part of the reason for this is it makes it harder for both the WW and BH. It would be easier for the OM to not step up. But when he does want to do the right thing, well then maybe a part of you thinks maybe he was not such a bad guy. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I think it makes it just as hard, if not harder, on WH and BW. Especially when this BW wanted children at this time and he wanted to wait. And it is NOT easier for my WH to not step up- it would be the hardest thing he did- but it is a CONSEQUENCE of his actions- and isn't he a "bad guy" for ditching his marriage!?

<small>[ April 25, 2003, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Michael,

You don't appear to be a "troll" here, in that you've posted for some time. I've never seen your story, however---I'd like to see you share it. I find it's really easy to say what you'd do in a situation based on your morals and beliefs---but until you're actually in the situation, you don't have a clue.

If you had asked me 7 years ago, would I have stayed with a wife after discovering an affair, not beat the OM to a pulp, not kicked my wife out of the house, voluntarily leave the house and my kids, or come back when she was pregnant with a child by OM and end up happily raising this baby---I'm sure you could have guessed the answer to all of those issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry but I think it is morally reprehensible to not tell a man that he is going to have a child...But if he wants to be a part of the childs life, he should be, end of discussion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find lots of things "morally reprehensible". Having an affair when married. Cheating with a married person. Breaking up a family. Divorce. All these are immoral situations---and the sad fact is that sometimes you can't reconcile these situations so that there are no moral "issues". But I find it quite amusing that you feel that there's some "moral imperative" for a non-married partner to be involved in a child's life. To me, because "he wants to be..." smacks more of the same reasoning line of self-centered, amoral decision-making that got the man into the situation in the first place.

I'm sure that in many situations, it would be terrific for a BW/WH to "obtain" the child from an OW and raise the child in an intact family (just as I obtained the OM's child in my marriage). But it's not something that can happen very often, so it's more a circumstance of the legal system than some sort of double-standard that MB'ers are trying to impose on all of society.

For someone who has hung out on MB for a while, you've got a lot to learn about lovebusters and other good marital skills...

Unhappy wife,

I'm sorry to hear how the marriage is going for you right now. You've done the best you can with this lousy situation. You're on target for going for a separation---but I know that this will be very difficult on you.

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Michael,

You don't appear to be a "troll" here, in that you've posted for some time. I've never seen your story, however---I'd like to see you share it. I find it's really easy to say what you'd do in a situation based on your morals and beliefs---but until you're actually in the situation, you don't have a clue.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been on MB for a while. And I did not mean to stir up this hornets nest. All I intended to do was point out what seemed to me to be an inconsistancy. When the WW keeps an OC, everyone seems to approve, but when a WH or OM wants to be a part of OCs life, it seems like no one approves, when to some, that is the right thing to do. Boiled down, that's all I was trying to say.

But you asked for my story so, boiled down again, here goes. My W and I met in HS, our first and only SF was with each other, and we got married very young(I was 21, she was 20) June will be two years since I found out my W was having an A, and I actually caught her at OMs apartment. After catching her, I told her to leave the house and not come back till the A was over. I was not familiar with MB back then, and this move was on the advice of my best friend/lawyer. Anyway, after I kicked her out she went to live with OM. Turns out he was not the man she thought he was, nor was he interested in a relationship. Once the A was out in the open, he lost interest. Her living at his place lasted less than week, then she went to live with her mother. That lasted about two more weeks before she asked to come home. Since then it has been a long, hard road. As I have said in other places, though it has been almost two years since D-Day and many things have changed for the better, the outcome is still uncertain. But I owe it to my children to keep on trying. Frankly though, if we did not have kids, I probably would have left her and never looked back. But we do have kids, so I honestly can't say what I would have done without them.

So there you have it.
Michael

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

MichaelinDallas,
Well then, no offense, but while you know how it feels to be BS, you have NO idea what it feels like to be BW whose WH has OC....so it isn't really something you have any idea about....

Well, this post has taken an interesting turn.

You know, Mom of five, I wonder why you think I haven't done enough to consider accepting OC.Against my wishes, I have both permitted and not permitted visits of my H with OC. Two years of visits, with or without my permission, and I am still here.Still here in my marriage due to my need to protect my kids and give them a family they deserve-- the family I thought my H and I created when we had them. YOu see, we have been married over 20 years, but we waited a long time to have kids, both because of health problems, infertililty problems, and our own desire to delay childbirth. So, our children are not grown, they are young.They mean the world to me and what my H has done to them and me is really hard to deal with.

The fact is, I have gone through 3 therapists with H-the first two, I liked and believed could offer us some hope. H didn't like them--why? Because the first two challenged him to think of the effects of what he has done, and he didn';t like it.

WE finally got to Steve Harley when I initiated contact alone first. H has done a few sessions-and now given it up. I have tried it my H's way for two plus years, with him doing contact and look where it got us-in divorce court. Steve Harley does not necessarily recommend no contact, unlike his father who does. Consistently. But in our case, he sees H doing this before our marriage had any chance of healing, before any POJA, before he made hardly any overtures to be a partner I could fall in love with again. No dates, no open book life, no no contact letter with OW, no stopping of lies, etc. No lots of things. Now, given all this, why should I be the one to adapt and accept?

Steve supported separation in this case, and not lightly , because H is not making our life safe or secure for me.Because my H's actions hurt me. Even though you may think his actions are honorably intended, it doesn't matter-as Steve says, there are never reasons to hurt one's spouse.And H has done it over and over. I begged H to try something different, write a No contact letter to OW, stop seeing OC so we could heal and maybe down road come to some agreement of contact with OC. He wouldn't do it.So, I filed for legal separation, and now we spend our time in legal court and mediation appointments and arguments about child custody and child support.

This is not what I signed up for-and neither did my kids. I fully intended to have a long term marriage with my H to be here with my kids, co-parenting our children. HIs visits with OC is not a co-parent-it is as if he is the man who takes OC places. He isn't co parenting with OW--but he has co-parented our kids, up until now.

When we separate, he will lose that. He has never explained why he is prepared to give that up for OC-except to say he has to do what H feels he must. HOwever, as my MIL says, H also has to face breaking up a marriage due to adultery, fathering an illegitimate child, (her words) and breaking up a long term marriage and family. NOw, I ask you, which is worse-- doing this, or not fathering a child he once wished was adopted out or given to others?

I am very tired of defending my position, and you know, I don't have to.No matter what happens, My MIL says I will always be her daughter in law and my kids her grandchildren. She certainly isn't saying that about the OC and the OW.

Again no disrespect and yes it seems you have run through all the possibilities. I am sorry your husband does not seem to understand that.
I dont blame you and I can see why your angry, I wasnt trying to be mean just hate to see any one break up that doesnt want to.

I try to see all sides even though here we only hear one side.

Your husband will still be your childrens father if he leaves, But it will be difficult not to have as much input as he once did. Maye he will see things your way and find a way to work this out..

I understand your concern for your children, Mine were a concern for me as well. which is another reason we have become so open, so that my children were not devistated years down the road by a suprise and the fact that we had lied all this time. Just what husband and myself decided to do together.
Again I hope this helps you with healing and maybe something will work out. You know my husband and I seperated, and filed at one time, but we decided to work it out. It could still happen. Keep praying and I wish you well.

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Dear Unhappy wife,

This thread started out about the betrayed spouse's need to be comforted. However, when you wrote about your needs, we failed to comfort you and validate your needs.

You do not have to explain your feelings and we, your support group, should accept your feelings just as they are.

Please don't be angry because we botched our replies the first time around. I am behind you 100% and will keep praying for your happiness. Your MIL sounds terrific. Not only did she say exactly what you needed to hear, but I am sure that she knows her son and may understand that he is not necessarily doing an honourable thing as much as he is running from the promises that he has failed to keep in your marriage.

best wishes,
marie

I just thought of something interesting....when Mr."T" and I were in one of our counseling sessions, Mr."T" was saying that no matter what he did for me wasn't good enough....so the MC asked me, "what can Mr."T" do for you that would comfort you and make you feel better?"....I was stumped...he was doing all the recovery things, and yet to me, it still "wasn't good enough"....what did I want him to do? At the time crawl on broken glass, walk on hot coals...grovel?????

Once I realized that he was doing what he was "supposed to do" and I was focusing too much on the negative and not on the positive of what we are working together, things got tremendously better.

I don't think anyone can ever really make the hurt, the pain "Better"...but they can make concerted efforts to be accountable and the needs for that varies among the different couples.

Interesting.......

Twiisty

I have not been offended by what any of you write.

I just get very offended when people suggest the BS should accept OC, like it or not, to save the marriage. I think it is incumbent on the WS to do whatever is necessary to heal the rift caused not only by the OC, but the A. My H has put all sorts of energy in being active in our kids' lives, keeping up the house, etc. I give him that.But he needs to channel that energy towards me, regaining my faith, and love, and trust. He hasn't put near enough attention in that direction.

I still search his briefcase, challenge his comments, wonder who he talks to. And he gets mad at me-I was out of town recently with our kids, and asked him not to have anyone in our home while we were gone. He thought that was an odd request, got mad, and never just said-- I won't, I will honor your request. And you know why I was so concerned-because, in past, even as far as one year ago, whenever I had been out of town and H stayed behind, he either had OC here or OW or both. NOw, I agree, it is an odd request, but it is a request caused by my H's actions. Why can't he just acknowledge what he created and move on?

I get tired of him being angry at me for what he has done.Before all this, I never questioned where he went, who he was with, who he had in our home. He broke all that trust with things he did.And he doesn't reestablish that trust by getting angry at me for checking up on him.

Sometimes I don't think he really gets what it is like to be so distrusting of spouse. It really is horrible.

unhappy wife,
I feel for you because my WH chose to leave me because of OC and I know that you have to be in such pain. Sounds to me like he has no respect for your point of view and I am afraid that he isn't valuing you and your marriage enough- you have been through a lot and you should definitely be respected enough to have some say about the OC and visitation. The sneaking and the lies can't help- and I dont' think asking him to have no one at the house is an odd request at all. He should be happy to do that for you.

Dear Marie,

I will try and swing this thread (or at least a little bit of it) back toward your original question. Well, I guess maybe this thread has been about the unfortunate results when a WS does not make attempts to comfort/care for the BS. We can see the results in UW's feelings that there is nothing left in the marriage for her. (BTW, UW, I wish you all the best. I am sure that this is difficult for you. I am glad that you are getting advice from the experts. If Steve Harley that it was time to file (and we know how pro-marriage the Harleys are) it must have really been time. We should all try to keep you in our prayers--for possible turning of events if you H should wake up and realise what he needs to do to restore the marriage, but even if the marriage fails, for the healing of your heart and Mr. UW's heart, for your children's healing, for full and happy lives for the all of you--together or apart.)

I avoided this thread for a long time because it provokes some anger in me. I know that there are some women who would appreciate seeing a little bit of suffering in their H for what he has done. In the beginning it was a balm to my wounds to know that Mr. J "got it." He knew what he had done and how deeply he had hurt me. The problem is that the "I am a rotten person" stage of this has lasted for 2.5 years for him. It eventually started to look (to me at least) as pretty self-indulgent.

At D-day we both spun out of control. Even though I had to spend time in the hospital for depression, I was the first to recover and most of the marital repair fell to me. Mr. J lost his job right about the time Precious was born (although I didn't know of A and OC at the time. He didn't go back to work for 18 months and then only sporadically and at much lower income. He did nothing at home, not even getting out of bed until a few minutes before I was due home from work. I brought home all income, we ran through our savings, I maintained the house, took care of the cars, the home--I did everything and I built a large resevoir of anger that I am just working through. I was the only one working on the marriage and the only one caring for the other.

He is back on his feet, working hard at building his own business, helping with the house and the children we have adopted. It is taking care of much of my anger. I don't know how I stayed the course for so long. Obviously the fact that we were in the middle of adopting our kids on D-day made a difference. If I had walked, our kids would have spent the rest of their lives in a Russian orphanage. However, I also believed that he could recover and that he could become again the man I once knew. I wouldn't have been able to stay if the affair were ongoing or if he continued to have phone calls with exOW behind my back. I can tolerate not much coming into my LB, but I couldn't have withstood those hemmoraging withdrawals.

I got none of the "I will spend the rest of my life making sure you don't regret staying" and I wish I had gotten a lot of it. Not as groveling, but as two equal partners building a better life together. I can't explain why I stayed. My prayer partner says that I was given the spiritual gift of mercy and that may be true. I seem to be able to tolerate an awful lot w/out losing my sense of self. Part of it is that I am a child of divorce and I went into this marriage with a real strong attitude that only abuse would drive me from this marriage. I don't define abuse as failure to particpate fully in the marriage.

As for your situation, the Harleys say that an non-affectionate man can learn to be affectionate if that is one of his wife's needs. They have plans and even tell him exactly what to say and when to say it. It doesn't sound much like affection but I think it probably goes along with that "fake it till you make it" theory. The H does these things, the wife feels like it is forced, but in many ways it still meets her needs. As the H begins to get positive feedback on his efforts, his efforts become easier and more spontaneous. Remember, he can't fix what he has done, all he can do is make every effort to ensure a happy marriage in the future.

Have you and H filled out the EN questionnaires? Does he know about this need of yours? Have you presented this as a need of yours, not a failing of his? "Honey, I have a great need to be comforted and reassured that you are happy with the decision to stay here and that you are sorry about your affair. I am not asking you to grovel, nor do I want you to spend the rest of your life beating yourself up over what you did. I need to feel more cherished, more special to you. I worry sometimes that (fill in your worry--mine was that he stayed with me as the "default option" just because we had been together so long.) Do you have any ideas how we could solve this problem.

I don't know if that helps. It often seems to be the BS who has to do most of the work. It isn't fair and that stinks but it seems to be the way it works. Eventually the exWS needs to begin to pick up the slack.

MJ

Marie MJ said it from the heart of a lion.

I, along with UW, and MJ, came here almost simultaneously in 2000.

There are times WS feel the need to move on as "if".

It takes time and experts to undo all that has been done.

It's as if we, the BS, are Vietnam Vets...Triggers happen all the time, a song, a date, an unspoken fear.

You must learn to go to your spouse with all of them and work on solving them together.

The Harleys counseling is like that commercial

love wonderful, mariage exciting, Harleys priceless!!!!!!

Call 1-888-639-1639 asap.

Information to help is a call away.

Cost is about 185.00 per hour.

Well worth it!

get going now, won't you?

Don't ever forget God answers all prayers in HIS own time and way....

love and peace
Debi

Thank you everyone for some wonderful answers and suggestions. I have not been around for awhile because hubby has been sick and in hospital. (Not a good time to start talking about not meeting my needs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

I waited until he recovered and we had a long car trip to talk with him. It went rather well.

First, like some of you said, it started with me. I took a good look at MY behavior and saw that I needed to make some adjustments. I started reading "Power of a Praying Wife" and realized that regardless of who did the work, the bottom line is I want my marriage to work and to be better. Sometimes the strong one has to help the weak one and right now, I am the strong one.

I looked at the things my H does to show his love. I tried to see the selflessness and caring that he offers -- in his own way -- and understand that it can't always be my way. What I found is that my H has been showing his commitment in ways that I missed because they were not "my way".

My H loves to cook but hates to do dishes. I love a clean kitchen. This has been a source of discord for as long as I can remember. My H now cleans after he cooks. And when I thought about it, I remember that he frequently says, "I know you like the kitchen to be clean". It may seem like a small thing, but it said to me he is trying.

I prayed that God would soften my heart and give me some of that mercy that Mary Janes was talking about. And then, a really strange thing happened.

My H and I made love the morning of our car trip. I frequently think of the ex-OW at this time -- which he senses and asks what is wrong. I never admitted that to him -- I always either make up a story or tell him nothing is wrong. Well this time, the ex-OW was out of my mind and I enjoyed the experience more than I have since D-day. I started crying, not out of sadness, but out of joy. My H asked what was wrong, but I did not tell him.

When we started travelling, I told him that I wanted to speak with him about something that was troubling me and I did not know how to handle it. Since he knows me better than anyone, maybe he would be able to help me understand what I was feeling and how to make things better. I also kept my voice calm and tried to objective through the entire conversation.

I told him that I sometimes obsess over the affair and asked him if he noticed that I do this and why HE thought I do it. Much to my surprise, he told me so many things about myself that I was not really aware that he knew. He told me that he knows I obsess about things, I was raised that way -- very competitive, never to let anything go, to always question. He had figured this out from things I told him over the years about my life at home and from observing me himself.

He then asked me if I was crying after we made love because I was obsessing over the affair. I told him the truth -- how I had allowed the ex-OW to invade my mind. He said that he suspected that all along. He could tell by the way I would become tense sometimes. He re-assured me that he NEVER compares me with her and that he NEVER thinks about her in that way (relief...)

Since I was on a roll, and we were talking quietly without arguing, I asked him the big question. I told him that I have been suffering in various degrees over the affair and OC and what all this has done to our lives, but I have not seen any evidence that he has any difficulty whatsoever. How does he really feel about this situation?

Well, it seems that he obsesses about some things himself. He told me that he knows he hurt me in a way he can never fix. And he worries all the time that even after everything he tries to do to show his love and commitment, I will still walk away one day. The last part really surprised me, because I am not even thinking about separation. But, apparently, he feels that what he has done is so difficult for me to accept and recover from, that he believes it will eventually drive a wedge between us and he can only helplessly watch to see if I will fully recover or not.

I thought that the ex-OW had so much power over the situation. It came as a shock for me to understand that I also have great power in this situation. I also have great responsibility. I do not want him to grovel for my love. Because I love him, I would never want him to hurt the way I have hurt.

I got a good taste of what it is like to be the wayward spouse -- to be out of control of your future. It wasn't exactly as rosy as I thought it was.

I know we have many more talks to get through. But I was encouraged by this first one. I started to see my H as a wounded soul also, whereas before I had looked at him mostly as the perpetrator of the crime. He is just as lost in a lot of ways, as I have been through this ordeal.

So, I did okay... I'm kinda proud of myself!

Thanks everyone,
marie

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: marieluvsrich ]</small>

Marie,

It sounds as if you did a masterful job with this conversation. He really is on your side isn't he? It is just hard to see sometimes because he is beside you and not in front.

I think you also found out that he is a bit deeper and more perceptive than you may have thought and all you really had to do was ask.

Isn't strange how simple things can be and how often we make them so hard? Now you know why I picked my login name. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I keep learning this lesson over and over again. I hope you learn faster than I.

Congratulations on your discussion and the steps you have taken. Your H is lucky to have you for a W.

God Bless,

JL

Marie,

I don't have much time to post and you may or may not know who I am. But I read your post and it reminded me so much of my own story. How just one day I was able to put this whole ordeal into perspective. How suddenly I was able to deal with it on a new level. Ever since, "our" recovery has been phenomenal.

So many times newbies come to this board and want to know exactly how long before true recovery begins. It's so hard to explain to them that often recovery hits you like a brick overnight and without warning.

It's also very hard to explain to newbies that most often the BS is the one that puts in all the work on the front end. You explained it so well in your post. We do put in much of the work at first, but most WS jump on the band wagon and realize they have to put work in too. And many are so impressed on the work we put into improving ourselves that they start working on themselves too! That domino effect in full force.

And the last thing I loved that you said was how you had to realize that your husband shows his remorse and his efforts in his way. So often we are so angry and resentful and we have expectations on what they need to do to "make it up to us" that we are completely oblivious to what is actually going on around us. Little efforts intentionally made are actually huge displays of love for some. It's a shame if we let those efforts go unrecognized.

The power of a praying wife is awesome force. So glad you found your power!
God bless you and your marriage,
Z.