The number I called was one I knew I would only get his voicemail. I just wanted to hear his voice. I did, and it didn't make me feel any better. It helped my urge to run a little though.

The thing my H said was at our d's birthday dinner in a restaurant. We argued a bit in hushed tones. It hurt a lot, and I felt like crying, but knew I couldn't in public, so I was silent. Everyone was silent. My silence was interpeted as anger. Felt like pre-A, where things are as he says they are. I was the fall guy, dubbed as the one that ruined the evening. The evening was horrific, and the children were the ones to be the most hurt by it. We had all looked so forward to this celebration.

He didn't sleep w/ me last night. I can't explain how I feel to him, because he interrupts, he doesn't see the hurt, only thinks I'm angry, (which, now I'm getting, and frustrated too). He just says I'm nuts. When he said that and more this morning, I told him I'm not the one going around calling people names and acting like the big shot, speaking loudly above others. He threw a wadded up piece of paper at me, and said "BIG SHOT, huh?!? After all you've done, you'd think you'd be more humble, compassionate, and flexible". What the hell can I say to that? He's right.

Our communications skills suck. It makes it seem like all the good days we've had so far, were just because we were walking on eggshells, not because we had made any progress. We need MC desperately...I know.

Back to the "good ol' days"...I will spend the day feeling misunderstood, and sorry for myself, while he goes off to entertain some guy from overseas who's here on business. If this was during the A, I would have the om to run to today, but I, (as well as H, and generously so) made a commitment to this M, and trying to stick to it.

I feel a little better just typing some of this.

AD I'm so sorry about what happened at your d's b-day. As you've already seen for yourself, an argument NEVER solves anything but it does give fuel to LB with more angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. Even though he may have been at fault, it may help if you apologized for your part in the argument because it just may make him less defensive and willing to calmly and openly talk with you about what exactly set him off. Forgive me for the pun, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aut,

I'm so sorry for the pain, anger and hurt that I read in this post! You're right, you both need the MC, and I realize that your H feels it's not anyone else's business. He is holding his pain in, and it's coming out in these arguments! I agree w/TMCM, in that your apology will go a very long way, as long as you mean it! And, many times it will seem as if you are doing all the work, but it will go a long way in showing your H that you DO want your M to work!

One question, did you leave a message for OM? If you did, please don't do so again! Trust me, NC is the best way to go, even when your day seems it would be better if you did have contact, you need to take that time either for yourself, or use it to get close w/H again! I was lucky, in that our D-day was the last day I had any contact w/xOM! Granted, he kept trying to talk to me, but I wouldn't listen to him, and even called the cops when he wouldn't leave! Our ending was the best way to get over someone!

I wish that I had better advice, just know that I am here if you need me

Love,

Tigger

AD,

I hope that you were able to calm things down and have a better weekend than it started. You described how last years Father's Day went, and how shortly after Mother's day this year you told him about the A and the parentage of the child.

Do you think that these weekends are going to be triggers for him? I think that are and will be for quite some time. If you step back and realize that triggers are not necessarily rational <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and that they pop up, then you might be able to deal with him a bit better.

I do hope you weekend turned out OK. Calling the OM was a really dumb thing to do and something you should avoid at all costs. That is if you want your family to remain intact.

God Bless,

JL

TMCM~

I did apologize, was the first to do so. When he apologized, it was followed with a "but", that's pretty typical, and something I'm long ago used to. However, this "but" had a long laundry list, and then he started getting angrier as his memory came back fully and reminded him why he originally got upset on Friday evening. I was kind of a smart-a, and said, "wow, nice apology!", but I said it light heartedly. Things were much better by Father's Day, and we ended up having a nice day, although slow going at first. Thanks for your advice...you're so smart! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Tigger~

I did NOT leave a message with the om, had no plans to do so, just wanted to hear his voice. I will try really hard not to do it again. In fact, I forgot the last 4 digits to his other phone he can be more easily reached on. I think that is a good sign. Thanks too, for your advice, and you KNOW I think you're so smart too!!! ((((Tigger))))

JL~

I think you are correct about the trigger thing. As much as my husband is able to forgive and forget, I wasn't sure if he would recall what happened last Father's Day. HE DID!!! In fact, as his coldness dragged into Father's Day morning, (even after my apology), he said something like, "last Father's Day totally sucked, and looks as if this one will too, because I sure don't see that you made any plans." I told him, I SURE DID make plans, but all of them were surprises, that I didn't want to tell him in advance. He was like, "yeah right, I think you are just back peddling". So I told him my plans, that I got him a really nice gift, to which he interrupted, "I don't care about gifts!!" (you were so right, JL) Then I told him what I was planning to make for dinner, and all the other odds and ends. It didn't seem to matter what I said, he wasn't buying that I had made plans to make his day special. He just left the room, and went outside.

Meanwhile, I remembered that Father's Day post, found it, printed out your response to my first post, and my replies back to you. I crossed out what gift I was planning to give him, put in the meanings for the abbreviations, but left everything else as is. I highlighted the dates, so that he would see that I had plans 10 days prior to Father's Day. When I took them to him outside, he wouldn't take them from me, so I set them on a chaise, and went inside. I watched him from an upstairs window, he kept doing what he was doing, but I could see his curiosity getting the best of him, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> he took the papers, sat down and read each one. I saw him wipe his eyes after reading them. I watched him as he just sat there, contemplating. He came up to me, and said, "you sound so sweet in email, and like you could solve the world's problems, why can't you be like that in real life?" That kind of irked me, because I printed the posts, to prove that I had made plans, not that I was Miss Manners online, and I told him so, and also that you all know I'm really pretty creepy in cyber life too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . He aplogized, and said that it meant a lot that I was planning a nice day for him.

From then, things got steadily better, and we ALL had a wonderful day. He kept trying to help with the grilling, but I told him, "I'm fine, I'm fine, please just sit and relax!" I didn't give him the gift till evening, and for the record, he was thrilled with it, read the instruction manual from front to back, which is not common for him!!!

We didn't have the fun in the bedroom that I planned, as he fell asleep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , didn't even see San Antonio win!! I was a little hurt, but I also knew he had a long stressful week at work then nearly 2 days of stress with me. Also, it was weighing on him that we ruined our D's sweet 16th. So, I didn't take the no love making as a personal affront.

This morning, he was up before me, came into the room with a banana, woke me up, held the banana out and asked if I wanted a bite. I said, "I wanted a bite last night, but SOMEONE was asleep before they hit the pillow!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , (he laughed a lot) I asked if he didn't like making love to me with my fat tummy and all, to which he said, "I love making love to you, your fat tummy is beautiful!!!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Ok, too much information... time to stop!!! I will say though, that it felt good to start this week, with things seeming to be going back in the right direction!

~aut

ps. I had typed a ps. re. "calling the om was a really dumb thing to do", but in typical AD form, it was as long winded as my post, so I deleted, and will probably send it along in another post, later. Stay tuned!!

Now THAT is a comeback. Great job AD!

AD,

I am not going to tell you to let him walk all over you, BUT... Let me quote something you wrote.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I watched him as he just sat there, contemplating. He came up to me, and said, "you sound so sweet in email, and like you could solve the world's problems, why can't you be like that in real life?" That kind of irked me, because I printed the posts, to prove that I had made plans, not that I was Miss Manners online, and I told him so, and also that you all know I'm really pretty creepy in cyber life too [Razz] . He aplogized, and said that it meant a lot that I was planning a nice day for him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AD please pay attention to the part I put in bold. This is a huge clue for you, and you missed it. He just gave you the kind of feedback that can save your marriage and make it much better.

What he is telling you is, that it isn't so much what you say but how you say it. Your H is far far more sensitive and vulnerable than you seem to think. Perhaps he has always been this way, but he sure is now.

I would bet dollars to donut, most of your arguements have NOT be about WHAT you say to him but HOW you say it. I would also bet dollars to donuts if you learned how to say things correctly (as defined that he is willing to accept what you say) you can have anything in the world from him. The "blow in my ear and I will follow you anywhere" approach.

Even if he wasn't that sensitive before it is clear that the events of the last year have taken a huge toll on him,and he does have trouble holding it together, which means he will try and cover it up with anger.

As you knew and really KNOW now, last Father's day did a big number on him. You must realize that what seems to harm most people about affairs, is not the physical part, but how the WS treats the BS during the affair, the lies, the inconsideration, and the just plain hurtful things that are said and done.

You may not realize this but from what you have said your H has lots of triggers. He no doubt has issues he could work on himself.

You are carrying another man's baby, he knows this, he has accepted it, but please understand the triggers, and how POWERFUL your words are on him.

I don't know how you view your H, but I would guess you view him as far stronger than he really is. It is clear even from the go around with whether or not YOU planned something he needed ALOT of reassurance from you. You gave it to him, but AD, you have a wounded person on your hands, he will need lots of reassurance.

But, more than anything understand your words have more power than you think, and they need to be chosen carefully. It seems you do it when you post, my bet is that you two have over the years gotten into communications habits that are NOT reaffirming to the other. That needs to change, and you need to lead the charge on this issue.

I am glad you were able to make Father's Day good for him. I am also glad that you are coming around, but I sense a defensiveness from your posts that needs to go away.

I must go, but I hope that something I have said helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL~

Wow, you always give me so much to thing about and chew on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What he is telling you is, that it isn't so much what you say but how you say it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with that. I have always had an attitude problem, especially regarding certain subjects. My mom told him shortly before our wedding, "She's all yours in 6 days!" Of course, I'm a lot like dear old Mom. The worst thing he can do in the middle of an argument is call me by my Mother's name. It works though, and it wakes me up, just like calling him by his Dad's name works too! I've often thought if I had a recording of my voice, I would be more than ashamed. I know a little bit about how I work though. The topic he started Friday night that brought about the argument, was one that has been visited many times in our marriage, it is very old. As I said in my first post of this thread, I was initially hurt, I tried to tell him and show him I was hurt, and not angry. It makes me so frustrated, then I get angry, lastly I withdraw, hence the silence at dinner. I never seem to explain my point of view clearly, and also that a lot of times I'm more hurt than angered. It's like we speak 2 different languages, he doesn't get me, and I don't get him. The topic isn't even a huge one in the big picture, but it is one that needs major POJA, but I don't know a whole lot about that yet, and he knows even less. I will keep reading the concepts, try to practice them better, and also work on HOW I say things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would also bet dollars to donuts if you learned how to say things correctly (as defined that he is willing to accept what you say) you can have anything in the world from him. The "blow in my ear and I will follow you anywhere" approach.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I already know, as I have seen it happen many a time. Whenever I am sensitive, and tactful he is very giving, understanding and extremely generous. In fact, case in point of this is d-day. I was so genuinely remorseful, he clearly saw that. If I hadn't been, I may not be here today, in this M.

Hit me over the head though, because I can't stop myself sometimes. You are right, I am defensive. I actually think to myself on occasion, "If I don't stand up for myself, who's going to?" I have a hard time letting things go, like I have to prove I'm right, or at the very least stick w/ a subject till he sees where I'm coming from, (that rarely works though, till later when we are both calmer). That is one area that we are similar, each very stubborn. When will I learn?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As you knew and really KNOW now, last Father's day did a big number on him. You must realize that what seems to harm most people about affairs, is not the physical part, but how the WS treats the BS during the affair, the lies, the inconsideration, and the just plain hurtful things that are said and done.

You may not realize this but from what you have said your H has lots of triggers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He clearly seems more harmed by all the elements surrounding the A, and the atmosphere of our M at the time. I have wondered if he has any triggers, and what they could be, seeing as he still knows virtually nothing about om, length of affair, etc, (all at his insistance of "NO DETAILS") What you said made a lot of sense. He tends to revert back to his behavior of pre-A, and during A, whenever I'm acting like I did during the same time period, duh...why didn't I see this?

I have been more careful about my choice of words, how I say things, and even my body language since the end of the A. I just need to work harder at it, and not revert back, just because I need to be right in an argument.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are carrying another man's baby, he knows this, he has accepted it, but please understand the triggers, and how POWERFUL your words are on him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thank you for reminding me. I need to remind myself DAILY of the gravity of what he is doing for me, what he has so generously chosen to take on and how the path of his life has now changed. He has in all reality, chosen to accept my consequences as his own...UNREAL!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> my bet is that you two have over the years gotten into communications habits that are NOT reaffirming to the other. That needs to change, and you need to lead the charge on this issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true, we both have been guilty of a lot of "knock out punches" through the years. It does have to change, and I will definitely work on my end of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I must go, but I hope that something I have said helps.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of what you said has helped tremendously. Although, right now I'm feeling a bit like the dumb and slow student. Just think if I hadn't found this site? I fear I would be in much worse shape!

~aut

TMCM~

I feel bad when I forget to acknowledge someone's post, especially when I think it's necessary to do so. Soooo... thank you, for the thumbs up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I too was glad F's Day could be revived, when it seemed like it was going down the drain before my very eyes.

Now, I gotta run...H made me a razzana sundae, and it's calling my name...LOUDLY!!!

AD,

First, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The topic isn't even a huge one in the big picture, but it is one that needs major POJA, but I don't know a whole lot about that yet, and he knows even less.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go read about the POJA on this site, then buy one of Harley's books that addresses it. But, also think about writing down the issues as best you can, including both sides of the arguement as best you can say it. His points, your points. Then tell him you are tired of arguing about this subject and offer to let him read your take on the situation.

Suggest that he read it. Correct any misconceptions you have about his point of view. THEN, ask him how the two of you can address this issue so that the both of you are "enthusiastic" with the solution. Write it down,iterate on the solution, discuss points, different points of view, perhaps there is a way to deal with this differently than either of you have chosen so far.

But, let him know that the goal is NOT to win, but simply to reach a solution you are both "enthusiastic" about so that the issue can be laid to rest. Then promise to leave it alone.

As for arguing back, the easiest way not to LB is when you start to feel the adrenalin flowing and getting excited (the old fight of flight) response, STOP talking. Just stop, and walk away. Simply say I don't want to do this right now and walk away. I will discuss this once you and I calm down. And then simply throw in "Oh! by the way I love you." Right after he puts a new hinge on his jaw <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , he will see what you are doing.

Very gradually, you will see your approach change and his. AD, in a marriage you need to understand, every time you win: YOU LOSE!. Every single time.

As for his triggers, he probably has more than you can believe. Why? He doesn't know the details so he is left with his imagination. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That means he is left to read the tea leaves about what you feel, and so he is hypersensitive to what you say, what you do, and how you say or do it.

Believe me he needs a lot of reassurances, and yes he is taking on your mistake. Yet, it is his choice, so he has to deal with things. It is just that you can make things easier on you and on him, IF you will change your approach to him and discussions.

There are many books out there on the subject of communications in a marriage check them out. Talk with you H and tell him your goals for ending the fighting.

Oh! and you two ARE speaking different languages. Yup, the male/female thing is there, but so is the BS/WS thing at least until the baby comes.

From everything I have read on this site there will be more triggers as the baby comes to term. This is tough stuff AD, and while your H has volunteered for it, he has no way of knowing how things will affect him down the road. BUT, you need to recognize he will try to keep his promises to you.

One, final thing, I would guess he will act in some seemingly childish ways. My guess that will be him asking you for affirmation that you do need him, love him, and he ISN'T second choice.

None of this means you have to give up who and what you are, but to use Dr. Phil's question, how have things been working in your marriage up until now? I don't think so well, this is a good time to change these things, learn new habits (you can only blame Mom for so long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Talk with your H tell him what you want, what you need, and how you are hoping to change things. I think you will see him coming along with you.

Do you remember what he said about your pregancy? It was a blessing because it had change how you two have been interacting. AD, this man wants what he hasn't had and I think he is willing to work to get it. He wants peace, and wants your love.

He is dropping big hints here girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't ignore them.

Must go home.

God Bless,

JL

JL~

I will do all that you suggested. I'm sure we can get to the bottom of several old, nagging issues by doing the process you described.

Now a little off subject, he leaves for overseas business this weekend. I was wondering, do you think that it would be a good time to send along the reading on EN, and also the EN questionaire? I thought maybe he could fill it out over there, without me around, and then we could look through each of ours when he gets back. I could send some of the basics of POJA too, or do you think that would be pushing it...that I should do work on my end first?

I had just recently been thinking about one of the very issues you brought up, you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From everything I have read on this site there will be more triggers as the baby comes to term. This is tough stuff AD, and while your H has volunteered for it, he has no way of knowing how things will affect him down the road. BUT, you need to recognize he will try to keep his promises to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been worried that the reality/full weight of all that I did won't really come down on him till the baby is born. I'm wondering if that will be more like the first day of our recovery, and not d-day? Will it set us back 4 months in recovery? Will he change his mind? So many concerns!! I'm trying not to worry, because the future will be here soon enough. I just want to be realistic though.

Interesting again what you said about his triggers. Not knowing any details, leaves him susceptible to his imagination. I never thought about his imagination running wild on him. He truly seems likes he doesn't have any of the "physical triggers" (if that's what you call them). I guess I could be all wrong with this though, hey? It's just that the intimate part of our M has been better than ever. If I were the BS, man oh man, I would not be handling this very well at all. I wouldn't be able to get the physical visions, nor the thoughts of the emotional attachments out of my head. Can I assume that even though things seem good, intimately, that he may be having visions of me with another man?

Now way out in left field, ewwwww...which reminds me, we're going to a baseball game tonight, he got tickets 10 rows behind the home dugout. I haven't had a nap yet, so I need to hurry!!...ANYWAY, just wanted to tell you all, last night after I logged off here, I went to his den where he was sitting at his computer, working. He had the 5X7 fancy schwancy, paper framed, ultra sound picture of the baby sitting out, and upright, next to his monitor. I asked why he had it out, and he said, "Well you just had it mixed in with your stack of bills, school papers, and junk, I thought it should be sitting out." I gave him the biggest bear hug!! God, what did I ever do to deserve this man?

Now, I really need to go. Thanks again for all your wise advice.

Aut,

Well, it seems as if your H is very willing to raise this baby, with all that it may bring to you both! I say that because of your comment about the ultrasound pic! As to your questions about when the baby being born and D-day, and stuff. Well, I know that it will be hard, but I truly feel it won't be as hard as the actual D-day. You/he may have a few moments where you feel as if you've taken a couple steps back in the recovery process, but it won't be all the way back to a brand new discovery. That's because it's been known this whole time about the A and the biology of the OC. The pain will be from the physical proof(being the OC vs. the pregnancy) of the A, not just seeing you grow with the child. But, your H is looking forward to this baby as well, and he has that love in his heart for the little guy, so I wouldn't worry too much. From experience, the delivery can be pretty tense, with emotions all over the place. But, it is all worth it when the baby wraps Daddy around it's little finger(just like Abbi does with Sailorman!)!

Ok, go enjoy your baseball game! And keep up the good work!

Love,

Tigger