i understand the point of putting your spouse first in the marriage, before ANY children, and i totally agree. at the same time though, ask mof5 or tigger what would've happened to their marriages if their h's had insisted they abort or even give up their oc. i know what would've happened to mine had my h refused to accept mine...

it's a catch 22. you either keep the child (putting oc before your h) and, according to several posters, end up with a failed m. or you give up the child (putting your h first) and still end up with a failed m cause of all the resentment and other problems it would cause!

it's not that i don't love my h and wasn't committed to making our m work, but had he insisted that i give up my child, i would've left. 1) because of the feelings of resentment this would've caused me to have for my h; 2) because if he was committed to me and really loved me, he'd never ask me to do that!

yeah, i know there was alot of "me" and "my" in that last paragraph. i just couldn't help feeling like i was the only one (at that point) who could care, protect, and look out for my baby. my h, on the other hand, is a grown man fully capable of taking care of himself; not so an innocent, helpless, unborn child.

BUT, h didn't ask me to give up my baby (albeit he knew i'd walk if he did). and through the pregnancy i tried everything i could to make him feel love, cared for, protected and assured of my commitment to him and our m. is that as good as telling him i would've given oc away if he'd wanted me to? probably not, but i wasn't going to lie.

amy

thank you someone actually hit the nail on the head as how I am feeling. My h has never asked me to give up the baby once she is born for him and he has offered to help out since we last talked if I need his help with her. I have declined any help at this time because I feel I have created this child and I should have to support her not with help from him unles we are together. I do feel he should have to take care of her unless he really wants to. i do not feel I am being selfish about anything. Obviously as I stated before I must be coming off totally wrong on here to make people say i am being selfish and need to learn to grow up. I do have a lot of growing up to be done but as far my marriage everythig is just still in the early stages of I can not trust being with you or you should have never done this due to us not completely communicating what has happened the entire time.

Hey,
I didn't mean to offend you, just was CURIOUS. I even admitted it sounded terrible so gimme a break, okay?

I heard a story on TV recently where this couple proceeded to have 13 kids and kept giving them up for adoption because they couldn't afford to take care of them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Obviously you are not in that category!

You did say in your subject line that you are "trying to salvage your marriage" so I was just wondering how serious you are about that.

This has turned into a discussion of keeping oc or not. I think we went there because libby said that her h would have wanted her back only if she were not carrying the baby. Well, we all know that feelings change sometimes and that we may even say things we don't mean. libby and hubby seem to be working things out somewhat. But libby you and a few others are missing a big point.

This is NOT a discussion on whether or not to keep the oc or have contact with the oc or buy a star in oc's name, etc. It just isn't. On this marriage building website, we put marriages first. But that in itself does not answer ANY questions about how to handle the oc situation.

The big point is that the husband and wife get together calmly (meaning after some of that huge emotion has subsided) and talk, looking at all the options and then decide TOGETHER on the answer that is best for their marriage. (See folks, I understand even if my husband doesn't want to play POJA!) It's about deciding together, not about what the decision is.

Marriage Builders gives us a principal to use to arrive at our own unique answer to our own unique situation. And you will find support here for most any of those answers if husband and wife use marriage building principals and agree on THEIR best answer.

Libby, I hope that you get what you want. But in a marriage full of give and take, we have to compromise and it's not always exactly what we wanted. With this situation, there are many paths to take. You have said absolutely no to some of them. That's fine. But the goal here is the deciding together part. If you want your marriage, then you and hubby have to decide how to give and take so that you can both be as happy as possible with the decision- regardless of what it is. The method of arriving at the decision is the important part, not the decision. Keep at it and pray...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ask mof5 or tigger what would've happened to their marriages if their h's had insisted they abort or even give up their oc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, of course I am only going to speak for myself here, but I WOULD have given Abbi up for adoption if Sailorman had asked, and, in fact, had tried to find an abortion clinic the day we found out. I knew that I wanted our M to work, NO MATTER WHAT!!!! I was willing to sacrafice to save my M! Now, I am greatful that God had His hand in that phone call, and after that, the abortion was completely out of the question! But, we were still considering adoption! After discussing it TOGETHER, we came to the conclusion that we didn't want to go through that pain again! BUT, I would have done it, had that been the conclusion we both came to! In fact, it was more Sailorman's decission to keep Abbi, and raise her with our other 2 children, and I am very happy with that decission, as is Sailorman!

The problem here is some major wording! I have read in this thread many statements beginning w/insisted, demanded, made me. Those statements are NOT in line with the POJA(Policy of JOINT AGREEMENT)! Now, whether you use that acronym to describe how you agree on something or not, it's still used correctly as long as you BOTH agree, and agree together! Sailorman NEVER "demanded" anything of me! We agreed TOGETHER to raise Abbi and not give her up for adoption! So, I believe that if we had agreed to give Abbi up for adoption, we would be around the same level of recovery that we are today, as we would not be demanding, insisting, or making eachother do things that one of us was not comfortable with! At the point of our decission, I was willing to do what I needed to do to save/repair the damage I had done to our M! THAT is what putting your H first is! Yeah, our M was in the crapper, but we were cleaning it up, and as I was carrying the evidence of the A, and it would be with us for a lifetime, I was willing to do what was necessary!

It never was easy, especially in the beginning, but now, 3 yrs post D-day, we are in a much better place! Abbi is a WONDERFUL little girl, and is just as close to Daddy as our other 2 children! They all get their own special attention from Daddy and Mommy, and no one child is held any "higher" than the other.

Libby,

I think that you need to read up on the many books suggested on this site! They were/are a great help in rebuilding/maintaining your M, and can really open your eyes to how to make your M better, w/out being a doormat, and doing only what your H(S) wants you to do! You have a little time to work on your M w/your H! I realize how difficult it is being seperated due to military reasons, but your M can be worked on, even long distance! Don't give up, and maybe recommend the reading to your H as a way to begin working together on this M. Try to fix the problems now, before the baby is born, and you could end up being surprised!

But, that's just my POV.

Tigger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"but had he insisted that i give up my child, i would've left. 1) because of the feelings of resentment this would've caused me to have for my h; 2) because if he was committed to me and really loved me, he'd never ask me to do that!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That might well be BUT if there in one thing I learned a long time ago, is to never say what you would do until you find yourself in that situation. How many times did we say that if our spouses ever cheated on us, we would leave them? It is very possible that if your H had been a different man he might have said to you 'Amy I love you very much but I know that having you to decide between me and the OC is very painful so I made the choice of ending the marriage so you won't have to make that decision' Could you be absolutely positive that you still would not resent him?

I am glad that i am getting very good responses to this discussion from EVERYONE! I may not agree with some of them but they are all great advice that makes you think about every point of view. i sit here and read all this over and over and I was offended at first by somethings that was said but after rereading a few times I understand the points. i am new at this and I hope I can have the strength to keep things working if given that chance even during the hard times. i understand now what everyone was saying about your H or marriage always comes first. Because after all most of the time you would not have the other things without the marriage to begin with (no true in my case but in the usual case). I need to learn how to put my H first and everything after that to make the marriage work fully. That will take sometime because I have always put my children first and now I am beginning to realize maybe that is where things started to go wrong to begin with, I was never dedicated enough to put H first. I will just have to work very hard at loving him and putting him first and showing him that I do want to work on this marriage. Thank you everyone for opening my eyes to what needs to be done. I have a long road ahead of me but will never make it if I don't try constantly!!!

Libby this thread reminds me of Lost Pilot's thread in which he stated the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lost Pilot:

" Unfortunatly I love what I do & am unwilling to quit my job, because to me I do not look at as a job. I have fun, I love what I do, & my wife knew all about it before we got married. I know that may sound selfish, but that is how I feel. "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's great that you enjoy your job but if you put it ahead of her then why are you surprised that your W is undecided about staying married to you? Your statement is tantamount to saying 'If I had to decide between saving my W's life and saving my job, I would save my job without hesitation'. I beleive you may want to do some soul searching as to why you really want to save your marriage."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course an OC and a career are two totally different things but if they are put ahead of the spouse, then the same question applies 'Why are you surprised that your spouse is undecided about staying married to you?'. There's no better way of looking out for the childrens best interest than by putting your spouse first.

Libby,
We are only hard on you because we all care about marriages and the people in them here and sometimes you have to take a 2x4 to someone to help them get it. It sounds like you are getting it, so please apply it to your life and make this a success story!! Do the best you can to be the best YOU and no matter what happens you will know you tried your hardest. Love your husband first and that love will be an example for your children.

And off topic- TMCM, you have the best quotes on your signature!! They either make me laugh out loud (sex on TV won't hurt unless you fall off) or get really emotional feeling like this latest one. I hope and pray for someone to love me like that quote one day.
Take care all!!

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

I caution you to work a policy of joint agreement related to what is good for your marriage, with your H.

My H did not do that. He has an OC as well. I did not want any life with that child, but he didn't care. He chose OC over me and our children. He has now forced legal separation from me-with Steve Harley's support, because H , as Steve said, was being selfish and not protecting me nor caring for me in a way a spouse should. It doesnt' matter that his desire to parent OC may be good for child or well intentioned-it still hurts spouses in some cases. Steve Harley supports that.

And, for the record, I like tigger, would have given child up if my H could not parent a child I had conceived in an affair. I think the WS first obligation is to the people he betrayed-his /her spouse and /or any children existing.?Then, if marriage can tolerate inclusion of OC, so be it.That should be the priority.

It wasn't in my marriage or in my H'smind, and now we are separated heading toward divorce. His choice to have A put me low on priority list, put his kids lower on priority list, and we still are down there. Not a way to keep a spouse.

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

tigger ~

sorry for putting words in your mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . no offense meant at all!

i guess my point was that a marriage won't work when things are insisted or demanded or forced. the poja is a must. especially when it involves the life of a child.

i'm sure we can both agree that it takes an incredible man to be able to forgive enough and love enough to NOT (justifiably) insist or demand or force their (totally underserving!) wife to give up a child, and an even more incredible man to be willing to raise that child as his own.

i know how lucky i am and i'll never get tired of watching my h with his son! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tmcm ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That might well be, BUT if there is one thing I learned a long time ago, is to never say what you would do until you find yourself in that situation. How many times did we say that if our spouses ever cheated on us, we would leave them? It is very possible that if your H had been a different man he might have said to you 'Amy I love you very much but I know that having you to decide between me and the OC is very painful so I made the choice of ending the marriage so you won't have to make that decision' Could you be absolutely positive that you still would not resent him?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">to answer your question, no i wouldn'tve resented him if he'd chosen to end the marriage. how could i after what i'd done? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

lucky for me, my h is the type of man described above and i thank God for him everyday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

amy

Amy,

No offence taken at all! I was just saying what I would have done, and what we had discussed, and decided in our situation! Everyone is unique, as God intended it to be. What would have/did work for us may not work for someone else! I do agree that it takes an amazing man to be the father of a child born from an A, especially if it was born to his W! But, that also isn't to say that someone who chooses NC is bad either! Each person needs to do what they need to do if they want to remain in and repair their marriage. My post was to emphisize the POJA, and if it came off as me being offended, I was not.

Tigger

CoffeeMan, you rock... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, libby, you hang in there. Like TMCM said, I can't really say what I would do in your shoes. You have a difficult decision to make.

To work on your marriage, and adjust to each other and change, or not to work or adjust or change. It IS a constant process of not allowing your feelings to get hurt and looking at the big picture...

Hopefully your H will be willing to work with you and change and adjust with you as well.

Thanks for your consideration. Good luck to ya!