I see we have been discussing how can a WS turn his/her back on a child conceived out of an A. How to do so is awful, slimy, lousy, etc. HOw this child has a right to secure, loving from both parents How this is nor right, correct, etc..
How if the wife of WS stays in marriage, she must accept contact with OC as this is the only decent thing to do.

I wonder why noone, including the WS and OP's , ever acknowledge that the children born of marriage between BS and WS have also been abandoned and hurt. How the WS turned their back on them during the affair, turned his/her back on BS, and had a sexual relationship that when found out, most likely would damage and possibly destroy the marriage and family of those children. The affair alone, even without existence of OC, causes grave damage to those kids.

my H , at least, acknowledges during A, he did not think of our kids. He thought he could have A and not hurt anyone.

But he was naive. And ignorant. His behavior, and OW's behavior, hurt me desperately and has altered our family forever.And altered my children's lives forever.

NOw, I ask you -- if all adults were thinking about all kids involved, OC and children of marriage, then the A wouldn't have happened.But in the throws of the A, neither WS and OP gave any thought to how what they were doing and what it would do to the kids. They were not.

So, when I hear how we must all think about what is best for OC, I remember this-no one but me was thinking of my children during the A-- not my H, and certainly not my OW.So now I am left with picking up the pieces of my life and helping my kids get through the selfish acts of their father and the OW. And the OW certaily is not helping things at all with this.So, tell me, why should I worry about OC? The OC is not my responsibility.

>The OC is not my responsibility

No, of course it isn't. You don't have to do anything with regard to the OC. It's the parents of the OC that should be concerning themselves with the well-being of their child. (Whatever that may entail in the circumstances of each individual case.) Just as the parents of your children (you and your husband) should be concerning yourselves with the well-being of your children. The difference now is that for the man, in many cases (I agree, not all), he now feels a responsibility (in varying degrees in varying cases) to all of his children.

How the father decides to deal with or take responsibility for the OC is his issue. He will be the one who must deal with it in the long run (both physically and emotionally, for the rest of his or the child's lifetime). (Yes, of course repercussions will filter out on many of his family members. But what I mean by that statement is that it is him "in his own head" that will be faced first and foremost by whatever he decides. No one else is "inside his head with him". This is very hard to phrase properly.)

But that's just it ... it's his decision in the end. While you can't push him on the OC, it's also dangerous to tell him that he can't spend time with the child (especially in the cases where he's already bonding to the child). It's his responsibility. His child. His decision in the long run. Which is why forcing his hand, in any direction, in the emotional arena is not always a good idea.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: friendofk ]</small>

UW,
I certainly hear where you are coming from.

Maybe it's my fresh off the divorce courts talking but I am very bitter now.

We were ones that did acknowledge the OC (2) and had a visitation schedule in place, informally, but it was working. But then as things were beginning to move smoothly along, OW became more threatened with this arrangement. She told me she never would consider joint custody, which we never intended on. She didn't want the OC to become attached to me, incase our marriage did not work out.

OW understood that we were working on our marriage, understood that we were trying to co-parent with her, but that was not good enough for her. Once she saw that we were going to remain together, that is when she decided to use guilt on WS. Their children need a full time father. Well you can't be a full time father in two different households, so we lost out because our children of the marriage were college age, so I am sure he felt his job was done. Sadly our DS remarked "why doesn't dad feel that we still need him just because we are grown?"

My WS would see the looks on our children knowing the hurt and devastation he has caused them, and decided he would rather start fresh with 2 OC that didn't have a clue.

Now he has a DD that has just this week written him a letter telling him that she has forgiven him for his affair, but she chooses not to resume her relationship with him at this time. She in the future will try and build a relationship with the man that he is now, one that has over and over betrayed her, and not that father whom she loved that raised her. To her, he is two separate people.

Our DS who is an athlete, is so depressed over this divorce, has no motivation, has not practiced his sport once this summer (a scholarship athlete)choses to avoid his father, not take his calls or answer his emails. Both of our children feel totally abandonned by their father.

So we have tried to have a blended family, but the OW did not like the idea because in the end she would have lost out.

So now she gets to have the full time father she wanted for her children, but at what price for WS? He choose to be the full time father to the OC by moving in with them 9 months before the divorce was even in the works, and he wonders why his children are hurt. He is a man with no conscience.

Sorry to vent on, but personally I think divorce sucks big time. Like UW, I am left here alone to pick up the pieces after and A with OC involved.

Tina

UW, and Tina,

I'm sorry I don't have the words to express my sorrow at how things turned out for you both.

I do know what it's like to be a single parent and I do know what it's like to have your husband abandon not only you, but also your children. Wild Bill is just now trying to make a relationship with his children that he left me with 7 to 8 years after the fact....

It's not easy picking up pieces or trying to figure things out...but things do get better...one day at a time...

Of course, don't do what I did and pick another "winner" that cheats...(meaning Mr.T)...but we are trying and I have to say, in all honesty, that the choice of NC was his all along as I couldn't keep him from OC if I tried. It's his decision....and we are better off for it. We have had time to work on our marriage and we are getting back on track.

I know things will get better for you...it doesn't seem like it now, but it will.

Consider both of you's (((((Hugged)))))

Sending prayers,
Twiisty

I usually just lurk on this site since I am not in a position to give any advise but I had to comment because I feel like you do.

Quick update Stbxh had A that resulted in oc kept it a secret and I had to find out when oc was 18 months old. He had already bonded with oc and I was put in a position to accept or it was over (what a choose).

Stbxh said that our boys did not need parenting any more because they are 19 and 21 year old, I don't disagree total with that statement but he made all these accummtions who the heck is he to decide what they need.

So instead they feel like he abandoned them. My 19 year old won't answer his phone calls and when he does talk to him it's just yes or no responses.

My 21 year old lives away from home but asked me how often dad see his oc and he has not heard from him in 2 weeks.

My stbxh was a wonderful father, hands on and I can understand why he wants to be with his oc but why does he feel that he doesn't have to parent his older children. He lost their respect and slowly but surly their love.

He calls at 9:00 on a Friday night looking for son of course he is out and then he will say I call and he's never home. Clears his mind!

So yes he has done the right thing for his oc but what about the boys. He is taking the road of least resitants, this oc does look at him with hate or anger but he can't look the boys in the eye so he will avoid them. How sad!!

I will never forgive him for his choose and he will have to look himself in the mirror everyday.

No one wins! How sad and ugly!!

UW--I hear you and I have to say amen! Somebody has to consider the kids of the marriage and protect their interests?!!

Like you said, during an affair, the WS is totally in "Taker" mode, only thinking of themselves, risking their family, etc., not considering the outcome nor consequences.

It is natural for you to feel the way you do. What happened is wrong, wrong, wrong. And the fact that an OC exists, means the memory of it is that much more permanent.

It's just a good thing that those who created the pain of yesterday do not control the pleasure of tomorrow so your focus will determine what direction you can move to from here. ((HUGS and keep the faith!)) You will continue to survive this.

BTW, have you read Dr.Harley's book "Giver and Taker?" It is EXCELLENT!

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

p.s. I believe that the children of the covenant are entitled to everything they are intended to have and I believe that God sees to it that they are protected and that they do indeed get all the love, care, nurturing, and provision they are entitled to. HE knows the end from the beginning (don't forget the story about Isaiah and Ishmael).
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isaiah = covenant</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ishmael = works of the flesh</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Someone said don't forget, when we give birth to "an Ishmael, then we're the one who must change his diapers for the rest of his life..." meaning, don't expect covenant blessings for something that was birthed outside of God's design.
God promised Abraham and Sarah a baby but they decided to help Him out. God doesn't need any help. What He authors, He will finish.

Just take what I'm saying for face value--I'm not saying children are not authored by God. God never told any of us to go out and commit adultery!

But God did promise them a son. The OC was not God's promise, but their idea... Ishmael and his mom ended up getting kicked out of Abraham's house because the mom (OW) was disrespecting Sarah--the wife. Eventually, God instructed the mom (OW) to "GO BACK AND RESPECT SARAH AND DO WHATEVER SHE TELLS YOU TO DO!" How about them apples???

God took care of both boys, but only one inherited the full blessings--the one of the original vow.

<sermon off>

I apologize if I offended any non-believers. It's just that this story from the Old Testament helps me keep my OC situation in perspective and be able to accept the fact that my son was/is never going to have the same entitlements as his "siblings" from his bio MM father's marriage! This story helps me get real and stay real! This story helps me to realize that I need to be supportive of the BS and "respectful of her wishes for no contact!" YES INDEEDEE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by friendofk:
<strong>How the father decides to deal with or take responsibility for the OC is his issue... It's his responsibility. His child. His decision in the long run. Which is why forcing his hand, in any direction, in the emotional arena is not always a good idea.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Hi friendofk,
Please, please PLEASE click on the phrase below and read about this basic Marriage Builders' concept immediately!!!

The Policy of Joint Agreement

BTDT,

(Just as clarification on the paragraph in my initial reply.)

I know what POJA is. I've read on the site long enough (particularly Emotional Needs ... I am a wife too remember) to be familiar with both the phrase and the concept.

I never said he shouldn't try to work out an agreement with his wife. I never said he shouldn't take into consideration his wife's opinion or feelings. I never said he shouldn't POJA.

But not all of the men out there are going to follow the MB philosophies. Many aren't going to even follow the general philosophies even without the exact technical terms MB uses. Many of them aren't going to know or truly care what POJA is. (Note, this is *not* a statement on POJA either ... it's a simple acknowledgement that not every WS is going to be a member/follower/devottee of this site, even if his W is.) And in those cases, POJA means nothing to the man (or if he knows what it is, perhaps he doesn't care) ... if he doesn't want to POJA then he's not going to do it, and it does become his decision in the end. You can't brute force him to POJA any more than you can brute force him to stay or brute force him to leave. Which, as I said, makes trying to force his hand *from either direction* a risky move.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: friendofk ]</small>

BTDT~

You are such a grounded woman. I have a great deal of respect for you. Thank you so much for reminding us of the story of Ishmael,(except I believe Abraham & Sarah's son was Issac, not Isaiah?). I haven't cried while reading a post in a long while, but yours did it.

I thought immediately of Ishmael when I first realized my H was going to stay with me and raise my OC w/ me as our own. Even though he was willing to do this, I told myself I would never minimize what I did. While loving deeply this OC, always remembering he is not a product of our vows, but the product of my breakage of our vows.

I think what I did was way worse than what Sarah & Abraham schemed to have happen between Hagar & Abraham. Their disobediance and distrust of God's promise seemed to be out of a sense of panic, but cripe, God did promise Abraham his offspring would be as many as the stars in the sky!

I think how far reaching the consequences of Ishmael's birth origins have been. Some say it still affects today's society, considering the unrest that has, and continues to go on in the Middle East. Genesis 16:11&12 and Genesis 25:17&18 being just the beginning of what was in store for Ishmael and his descendents.

I am trying to, as you said you have done, keep the situation of my OC in perspective. The story of Ishmael is a good one to keep me in check.

UW, you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But in the throws of the A, neither WS and OP gave any thought to how what they were doing and what it would do to the kids. They were not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You nailed it! I am ashamed to say, this was the case for me. I feel such a strong desire to beg my kid's forgiveness, but they don't even know of the A, much less that the OC is only their half sib. I never thought of the possibility of hurting my children while in my A. None the less, they were harmed.

I have rubbed my tummy and expressed my sorrow to my unborn OC for conceiving him in sin. I have whispered to my children while they sleep, words of regret and shame of nearly destroying their family and life as they knew it. Perhaps one day I will be able say the same words to their face.

One more thing, it is truly amazing how many people, who dearly loved God, and usually obeyed Him, still fell, and many fell a lot, and BIGTIME! We all know David had a far from perfect life, one only needs to look to the story of Bathsheba and her BS, Uriah, and what David had ordered to be done to him! Look at God's grace and forgiveness though. He chose for His Son while on Earth to be born to a descendent of David.

I have great hope, because I know I have forgiveness from God. Yet all of that does not change the fact there are still consequences to my actions.

Ok, my sermon's finished...choir can sing now...Twiisty, you care to be the director? I know you sing so pretty...heard you last night!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

~aut

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

friendofk,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And in those cases, POJA means nothing to the man (or if he knows what it is, perhaps he doesn't care) ... if he doesn't want to POJA then he's not going to do it, and it does become his decision in the end. You can't brute force him to POJA any more than you can brute force him to stay or brute force him to leave. Which, as I said, makes trying to force his hand *from either direction* a risky move.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Looking at this scenario, you have a wayward spouse who was involved in an affair. Major lovebuster. You now have a pregnancy and child conceived from that affair, and the husband continues to ignore the wife's feelings (ie. ignore the POJA) and sees the child.

What's going to happen to the wife's love for her husband. Nothing good. For these situations, a brief Plan A is recommended (usually during the pregnancy, if the affair is uncovered in that period), followed by Plan B. There is no "win-win" scenario here.

This, by the way, is exactly how UW is handling her situation (to the best of my recollection). There's really no other way that I can see that you could handle this AND keep love in the marriage. While I'm very much against divorce, I would not live in the same house with a spouse who ignored my feelings on such major issues as these.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by friendofk:
<strong>But not all of the men out there are going to follow the MB philosophies...And in those cases, POJA means nothing to the man (or if he knows what it is, perhaps he doesn't care) ... if he doesn't want to POJA then he's not going to do it, and it does become his decision in the end. You can't brute force him to POJA any more than you can brute force him to stay or brute force him to leave. Which, as I said, makes trying to force his hand *from either direction* a risky move.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm really not referring to "all of the men out there." We are only concerned with our own men here, those of us who are MBers. And, I agree with you that none of us can force MB concepts on our spouses.

Basically, the decisions on surviving an affair are not one spouse's decision alone, that is, IF the couple plans to recover fully.

If I hear you correctly, you're saying that "if I'm not enthusiastically in agreement with my spouses' decision, then I should just accept that decision regardless?"

To just accept the fact that my spouse is going to railroad right by me and that's life??? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Sure, there is a way to get what we want (negotiation in marriage), so maybe that would be a good place to start--you know, try to figure out how to get our spouses to embrace the POJA without shoving the book down their throats. It's about the spirit behind our words and the cleverness to be able to get our ENs met all at once! UW: This type of negotiating is also discussed in the book "Giver and Taker."

If we just say oh, okay, whatever you decide when we are not enthusiastically in agreement, then we will end up very resentful because of 1.not being enthusiastically supportive of the decision and 2.not having our emotional needs met and 3.going along with what is clearly a love buster! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And yes, MBers can never go wrong with a good, solid Plan A!! Storing up lots of Love Bank deposits makes for terrific negotiations as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sooner or later, the OP starts LBing and that's a big plus for the BS!

<small>[ July 13, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>