I have a question ( questionS really) that I would like to hear the ow opinion on but I don't feel it is my place to post on GB. So I hope you'll give me some honest feedback.

Every ow I have ever seen post whether there is a child involved or not always states that all the self rightous people that condem her for having an affair should shut up until they have walked in her shoes. Fine, I'll go along with that. But once there is a child involved they become without a doubt the most critical, judgemental, closed minded group of women I have ever seen. ( and they talk about us )
Not once have I EVER seen one of them post ANY type of compassion for the emotional distress that their child has cost BS, not once have I ever seen any type of compassion for MM that he is truly in a no win situation. NOTHING !! If a person does not agree with them 100% or behave EXACTLY the way they want them to then the BS becomes a heartless ***** and the MM becomes a SOB. Not once have I ever read the slightest hint of understanding that this is all a tramatic shock to BS and if OW would at least give some type of adjustment time for BS to learn to accept her new reality then some type of mutally agreeable visitation might be worked out. NO !! If it is not done immediatly upon d-day then everyone but OW is a coward and a *****.
Unfortunaty human behavior being what it is, some of us are less than perfect and need time to come to terms with the INCREDIBLE PAIN that the affair has caused. We are sorry that we cannot adjust to the pain of betrayal and come to love the oc in the same day.

Next...

All the ow with children call the BS a ***** because we cannot put the needs of oc first.
But honestly, these ow are the same women that were hoping and praying to break up a marriage to have their own selfish wants and needs satisfied. Did any of them EVER give one single thought to the emotional damage that would have done to the children of the marraige? Did one of them ever break off an affair because of the potential damage to the children of the marriage that could be done when the marriage dissolved? Not all children are strong enough to cope with their parents divorce.
The answer to both questions is no. But now, these VERY same women that were willing to put the children of the marraige through PURE HELL for their own needs are complaining that BS is not considering the emotional well being of oc.
Am I the only one that sees some type of MAJOR hypocrisy here ?
The BS that chooses NC for the sake of her own needs is doing nothing more than the ow did during the affair. But when the shoe is on the other foot it doesn't feel very good.
I think we could all learn that whether ow or BS we are going to do what we feel is best for us and the ones we love and that may not make everyone happy.

I'm sorry but not all feel the way you do. My sister was an OC. I was disguted by mothers behavior. She did not chase after the MM. She got cs and left him alone. When my sister was 11, my mother found out she had terminal cancer and called MM and asked if he could be in the daughters life. MM had remarried and agreed. He realized his mistake and lost 11yrs with his daughter. My sister was able to know her father for only 10yrs. He past away suddenly of a heart attack last year. In that time she got to know her brothers and sisters. None of them resent her as it wasn't her fault. She still has a great relationship with them and her stepmother.

Thing is, how are we to know how the kids will react to the OC?? I know of children who get mad at their parents for denying them of a relationship with their siblings. We may think we are protecting them but how do we know if we're doing the right thing? I also know the whole damn situation is tough. I think all in the situation need to stop being so damn selfish and think of the children involved. Yes the OW was selfish during the affair, but so was the MM. Why is the OW the one who needs to take all the shame for the child and the MM walk away scott free?? I feel for the BS, I was one for along time. I swallowed my pride and thought long and hard and accepted the OC in my life. My own father who was divorced from my mother when she had my sister took her in as his own. To this day, even when her natural father was in the picture, he never treated her differently.

Crazymum

I think you might be missing the point entirely. Jtigger was addressing the blatant hypocracy we see when the OW thinks nothing of the children of the marriage and then goes ahead and has an affair then make demands (beyond CS) of relationships with sibs and extended families, condemns BS for not embracing contact, cite the BS as a bitter, hateful bytch then posts on the other board the most spiteful, the most vitriolic and venomous statements mocking the BS and calling her husband a coward simply because he is strong enough to return to his family and face the people who have been so deeply hurt. The OW seem to be so proprietory...as if something is owed to them when most of them have become involved with a man they knew was married and went ahead anyway.

Basically, they got what they were asking for, they gambled and lost, and they were selfish and didn't care about what impact their actions would have on an entire family...not just some woman who got knocked up who shouldn't have. They got their karma and they don't like it.

I sometimes read over on the other board and find myself running a gamet of emotions from rolling my eyes and groaning at the ridiculous banter and paranoia to laughing hysterically at the pretzel logic and "hurt feelings"...I mean, what do they expect???

Jtigger is simply wanting to know how this distortion they spew eludes the OW's...and frankly, I have wondered this very same thing myself. I don't take personal offense at their ignorant statements and cruel and ugly words, I pity them for their pathetic justifications and absurd rationale. For some reason because they find their babies and children "beautiful", they think that we are supposed ot see them in the same light, when we see them as precious as any other unrelated kid on the street. If we don't fall all over ourselves over this kid, we are extolled as hateful and rotten. They all go on and on about how we want to see their children die and hate the child which is patently ridiculous as more than half the BS here have attempted to have contact and incorpporate OC into their lives, mostly with miserable results, but have tried nonetheless....and they get no credit from that band of harpies. In fact, the success stories where the OC is a welcome part of the family is gaining momentum. The women who have accepted and even welcomed contact are many and I am weary of the shrews on the other site making false and inaccurate claims that BS are bitter and hateful when the venom spewed on that site is so obnoxious, one feels the need to shower after reading a thread.

Then we get the Mom of Five types who were once here but now there and make the most ludicrous statements about the BS when she knows better, but spew her venom as well, all the while having to listen to her chronic ramblings of her same tired old declarations. It just goes to show she never listened, she never learned a damn thing because she was so caught up in her own tunnel visioned mindset, she had no growth and gained no understanding...just a lot of general soundbites.

I think the whole thing is sad and regrettable for everyone but trying to force yourself or your child on a family who has been hurt by your actions is preposterous.

Catnip =^^=

THANKS CATNIP
{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}

crazymum,
Ask a women that has chosen abortion or given a child up for adoption if she felt she got off scott free. She will tell you HELL NO! It was probably one of the hardest choices she had to make. But for whatever reason it is the choice she made. Is she irresponsible for walking away from her pregnancy ????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

It is the same for a man that chooses to walk away.
It may not be your choice but you should never belittle the pain he too lives with.

As far as all that other crap. I don't believe anywhere in my post I made any reference to children of the marraige accepting or not accepting oc.
I also did no finger pointing about whose fault the pregnancy is and blah blah blah blah. You threw all that junk in but never answered a single question.
Are you women not capapble of open dialog without name calling and finger pointing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

**Are you women not capapble of open dialog without name calling and finger pointing? **

I'd like to know where I did finger pointing and name callin?? Just because at one point in my life I was an OW, which I will regret to the day I die, does not make me like the rest of them on the other board. Most of them hate me over there. I do not agree with the OW trying to push the kid in the mans life. I do know the games they play, and what they are doing isn't about the child, it's about themselves. I do know the pain of being the BW. I know it all to well... I know what it's like trying to pull your marriage back together, and keep the kids happy.

As for the OW getting the karma, that there not the only ones suffering. My H isn't. The only way he is suffering for the child he had is the $80 a week he has to dish out for CS. I know alot of the BS forget that it takes two to make a baby. That they think that the OW planned the baby, to trap the MM. I also know how well the MM lies, to both the BS and the OW.

As for the children of the marriage accepting the OC, it was a different post that another made a comment on.

I'm sorry for posting here. I'm finding out the hard way that the situation I'm in people can't handle. The OW can't handle a former OW regretting what she did, and the BS can't handle another BS/OW accepting a OC or having the opinions I have.

JTigger - I'm going to answer, and as honestly as I can - just not now. It's 11:00 and I'm exhausted. I have read it, and will think about it overnight. I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring your questions, because I'm not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Crazymum:
<strong> I know alot of the BS forget that it takes two to make a baby. That they think that the OW planned the baby, to trap the MM. I also know how well the MM lies, to both the BS and the OW.

=^^= There is not one BS on this site that has forgotten it takes two to have a baby. For some weird reason, this is some popular phrase I hear over and over again from OW's and I can't figure out why it keeps coming up. It's like some pathetic mantra...some lame excuse for their own behavior trying to exonerate themselves for their own guilt. No one has addressed this, probably because it confuses us because it's a given to us that it "takes two" and we all know this, but we are onto other issues further along in the evolution so we don't bother to acknowledge this tired old statement which is probably why it keeps perpetuating itself.

As for OW's deliberately getting knocked up to trap MM; no one can ever really know for sure. BS can only go on OW behavior, words, incidents that occur, etc. For an example, if an OW carries an EPT test in her purse on her dates with a MM, I'd say that is a fairly good indication it was a set up. If an OW lifts an airline boarding pass, unbeknowst to MM, and uses it as evidence later in court to prove he may be a contender responsible for her current bloated "state", then I'd say that pretty much indicts her. And if she is relentless in her pursuit of money other than CS, say, like his equity, his patents....I'd say that speaks volumes as well.

I'm sorry for posting here. I'm finding out the hard way that the situation I'm in people can't handle.

=^^= That's not it, Crazymum...really! I'm glad you posted here and we CAN handle your situation. I personally just want you to understand a POV to dispell any illusions you may have gathered about BS and their motivations and attitudes. You have to THINK about what you are saying; whether it is an original idea of yours, a gut feeling of yours, or borrowed rhetoric from a bunch of snarling bitter harpies that say the most awful and ridiculous things and fling the most absurd accusations that couldn't be more off target. I'm the meanest one here and feel compelled to defend these generous women who are constantly and consistently unfairly and inaccurately bad-mouthed on TOW and I can tell you that the women here are wonderful people willing to do things I would never considered for their OC and I find myself enraged to see the lies told on the other site about these selfless and caring women who have come to terms with their situation, have embraced forgiveness and have such big hearts as to welcome in their OC. So when they keep banging that old drum about "abandonment" when they themselves set themselves and their OC up for it and all this mewling for the po' childrun, it makes me nuts. If they are caring for their child, then the child is not abandoned. The MM has prior commitments! That's all! I'm sick of OW's crying about how beautiful their children are and how they "deserve" this and that...well, they do...but, from the OW. Their chidlren ARE beautiful... to them. To expect a BS to see them as that is incongruent with human nature...accpetance and love for an OC has to be a learned thing over time after some significant healing...why do the OW not allow time for healing? And what is all this [censored] about us hiding behind our Christianity? Are none of the OW Christian or spiritual or love God or pray to saints or obey God's laws and commandments? Is that considered "silly" or "old fashioned" in this perverted world of social decline and disgusting behavior? Is THIS what the OW want for their children? To live a Godless life of degradation? Is it not cool to love God? No one here hides behind their religion, Christianity, spirituality, convictions or beleifs.....just because someone believes in Christ and wants to live a decent life and has integrity doesn't make them a Bible thumper, for crying out loud. And Crazymum, I am venting on you even though I mean the TOW harpies and trolls...where 100% read here...and I guess you just got in my line of fire. So, don't take my diatribe personally...it is much broader than your post or your understanding of Jtigger's original post.

The OW can't handle a former OW regretting what she did, and the BS can't handle another BS/OW accepting a OC or having the opinions I have.

=^^= That's not true. We all champion other BS's accepting their OC...we all think it's cool and if the TOW harpies would read THOSE many, many threads, instead of spoiling for fights, calling us names and unjustly accusing us of hiding behind the Almighty and carrying on about how their MM looks like Clooney (hahaha-we all see what we WANT to see) and the wife is a hag, we all see what we want to see)

And, we will gladly accept your opinions whether we agree with them or not. This is all a learning process for ALL of us...but most of all we must all tell the truth...not only to each other but especially to ourselves. And have the guts and courage to do that.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

crazymum, I like you. I don't care what side of the fence you were on....I like what you've said and how you've handled things from the mistakes you and your husband made.

I'd be more than happy as well to answer those questions in a honest way too.

Let me say this though.......the oc is not the karma of the two parents sins. The oc just gets the brunt end of it.

There is not one BS on this site that has forgotten it takes two to have a baby. For some weird reason, this is some popular phrase I hear over and over again from OW's and I can't figure out why it keeps coming up. It's like some pathetic mantra...some lame excuse for their own behavior trying to exonerate themselves for their own guilt. No one has addressed this, probably because it confuses us because it's a given to us that it "takes two" and we all know this, but we are onto other issues further along in the evolution so we don't bother to acknowledge this tired old statement which is probably why it keeps perpetuating itself.

catnip every bs in one way or another will say just that. I've been on several boards and seen it from every single one of them. The women must be a whore...lets get dna test......the ow is sueing for cs..........poor uh..........our poor family. Yeah poor family who did not ask for it, but just because the ow did not abort or put up for adoption and "left uh with no choice" does not make it right that ow be left holding the bag. Ow is taking uh to court......why???? Because uh is hiding and not owning up to what has happened. Just as they (bs) say it's not all ow....well it's not all bs either but it is a lot. Because your married to this man it is so much easier to forgive or set aside or protect him than ow. Any person with a husband can say that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong>

Let me say this though.......the oc is not the karma of the two parents sins. The oc just gets the brunt end of it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= Listen carefully...I am not saying the OC is the "karma"...I am saying the difficulty that befalls the OW, the lonliness she endures, the humiliation or whatever her discomfort, is just the logical consequences for the things she has done. If you drive a car without brakes, you won't be able to stop and you might hit a brick wall...logical consequences. And if the OC is getting the brunt of it, then it is the OW's responsibility to see to it that the OC is protected and loved. It is basically up to her because she has made the decision to keep her child regardless of the circumstances and she must make the most of it.

Catnip =^^=

"To expect a BS to see them as that is incongruent with human nature...accpetance and love for an OC has to be a learned thing over time after some significant healing...why do the OW not allow time for healing? And what is all this [censored] about us hiding behind our Christianity? Are none of the OW Christian or spiritual or love God or pray to saints or obey God's laws and commandments? Is that considered "silly" or "old fashioned" in this perverted world of social decline and disgusting behavior? Is THIS what the OW want for their children? To live a Godless life of degradation? Is it not cool to love God? No one here hides behind their religion, Christianity, spirituality, convictions or beleifs.....just because someone believes in Christ and wants to live a decent life and has integrity doesn't make them a Bible thumper, for crying out loud."

Wow Catnip I should of read the whole post before I posted back. I as the ow can tell you and hold my head high that I am christain. My kids and I go to church every Sunday we pray and read the bible all the time as well. What I did was WRONG. I know that and I believe after hearing a lot of ow talk they all know they were wrong too. But they (I) for whatever reason as well as the MM got into the relationship and the feelings were there. As far as hurting his family......when you love someone is that really the first thought in your head? Come on? Even christains are inmortal. Even the bs is not without sin. Granted adultry is a biggie, but I've heard that every sin in the eyes of God is the same. I was raised by a minister too, so I heard it a lot. Maybe not in every case is the mm telling the ow a bunch of crap about the wife, but I think the majority of ow are hoping that if the mm does leave the marriage it is without the family knowing of the a. Is it wrong, yes, it is. But if MM is pounding in his ow head how horrible the m is and wants out why would ow think any different? Then there is the saying well, if the mm is lieing to w what makes the ow think he would not lie to ow? That is absolutly right, but when your caught up in the a and feelings(love) you can't see past what the mm is saying. I kept my kids totally out of my a. MM was not allowed over when my kids were home. I was not going to bring my kids into that. My actions were not going to be reflected on my kids. The same goes with this oc I'm carrying. I will never have an a again though. Hello..........I learned my lesson and trust is not there for anybody at this point in my life. Okay....enough on that...you also said......

"The OW can't handle a former OW regretting what she did, and the BS can't handle another BS/OW accepting a OC or having the opinions I have."

Unless a ow is still in the affair I don't agree with that. Unless Bs is not ready to accept the fact of everything that has happend.....and gone on, I don't feel she can accept it either. I honestly feel no matter what circumstance you are in whether it be big or small unless you've really walked in someone's shoes or are capable of being open minded to your own deal you can't have a clue how that person thinks feels or sees. A person's anger towards there own deal can also tunnel vision your ideas of someone than before that anger was surfaced.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong>

Let me say this though.......the oc is not the karma of the two parents sins. The oc just gets the brunt end of it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= Listen carefully...I am not saying the OC is the "karma"...I am saying the difficulty that befalls the OW, the lonliness she endures, the humiliation or whatever her discomfort, is just the logical consequences for the things she has done. If you drive a car without brakes, you won't be able to stop and you might hit a brick wall...logical consequences. And if the OC is getting the brunt of it, then it is the OW's responsibility to see to it that the OC is protected and loved. It is basically up to her because she has made the decision to keep her child regardless of the circumstances and she must make the most of it.

Catnip =^^=</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you 100%. Look back at your post. It does sound like what I said though. Putting it the way you just did .....I agree with you all the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
<strong>
catnip every bs in one way or another will say just that. I've been on several boards and seen it from every single one of them. The women must be a whore...lets get dna test......the ow is sueing for cs..........poor uh..........our poor family.

=^^= Of course! And what on God's green earth is wrong with that? Why would you expect less than that from a woman who feels as if she has lost her life and everything meaningful to her? Of course BS say things like that in the beginning when they are annihilated with pain and despair. Much of the time BS's ARE dealing with vindictive and angry OW's, who, if they had any decency, would just quietly go away and live their life and raise their child, but more often than not, they enjoy creating havoc and trouble and inflict more pain on the BS and HER CHILDREN. Why are the children of the OW more important and deserve more consideration than the children of the marriage?

The BS often evolves after a time and softens. It's the job of the OW to be patient whether she likes it or not. It's the LEAST she can do. Most of the BS's on MB have become wonderful step mothers to their OC's...there is love and acceptance...so why the whine? Don't you think the BS's have a right to be angry and to be hurt and defend their own families and marriage? Are they supposed to give it all up, their history, their lives as they know it, for some interloper who has no rights at all? Think about how patently ridiculous that is! Do you want to share your life with a total stranger invading your life and causing you and your kids undue hardship and stress, heartbreak and chaos? Would you like to have your pockets picked every month causing your children to go without because some woman you never met or knew about has put a claim on the money you have worked so hard for, earned and saved? Would you feel like sharing your husband, BF or love of your life with some women who had no regard for you or your kids but screams bloody murder and demands equal time for her kid just because she went ahead and did as she damn well pleased...and didn't give a [censored] how it effected you or your kids? Some OW who obviously had no respect for marriage and what that means. I know many on TOW like to blow off marriage as inconvenient in relation to them...someone else's marriage, that is. But, marriage is a really big deal and involves enormous commitment, a deep shared history, children who can be deeply hurt and scarred, extended families, and millions of other intricacies too numerous to list.

Yeah poor family who did not ask for it, but just because the ow did not abort or put up for adoption and "left uh with no choice" does not make it right that ow be left holding the bag.

=^^= She only "holds the bag" if she chooses to hold the bag. It's up to her if she wants to saddle herself with responsibility. If she knows this MM is married and gets involved anyway...too bad, I guess.

Ow is taking uh to court......why???? Because uh is hiding and not owning up to what has happened.

=^^= What is "uh"? If you are referring to H husband, the husband isn't in "hiding" or not "owning up" to what has happened. In most cases, he is shell shocked with the kind of news that he knows will devastate his family. And since THEY come first, wife, kids, parents, etc.; his obligation is to them first. He has to use that time after receiving "the news" to do damage control with those who mean the most. And if that means waiting for DNA to confirm results before considering further involvement, then he is being wise since we have had a few situations on this site where it was revealed that the child was not the child of the accused. He owes nothing to the OC but financial assistance should the results be positive. If he and his wife have healed enough and determined that involvement/contact can be done, then visitation can be arranged. What more does the OW want? What more can she realistically expect?

Just as they (bs) say it's not all ow....well it's not all bs either but it is a lot.

=^^= What do you mean? BS has nothing to do with what happened...BS is innocent as the OC.

Because your married to this man it is so much easier to forgive or set aside or protect him than ow. Any person with a husband can say that.

=^^= That's true. But forgiveness does not come right away. Forgiveness is earned and in the beginning as most BS can attest, the WS pays his dues to BS big time. But, OW does not see this because she is not privvy to the intimate inter-workings of her marriage.
The thing is that most all OW's have absolutely no idea whatsoever what goes on in a marriage and what the couple are all about or what dynamics within that marriage. The OW can only speculate and 90% of the time she is dead wrong. The marriage is far, far more intricate than she realizes and more intense and more involved than she can imagine. The couple have had years together and have built a huge complicated life that never included her or her issues. Just because she has a kid doesn't mean its her admittance card into their lives. First BS impulse is to reject OW and OC, especially if healing hasn't happened yet. Nothing that happens will be on the OW's time table and it is just something she is going to have to suck up and shut up about. She has no rights.

It is difficult for BS to forgive OW because they wish the BS ill will and mock her and conveniently re-write her history with MM to make it sound like it was so much more than it was...a deluded man's weakness. If the overall mindset of OW's is what is drafted on TOW, then BS's everywhere, beware. The hate and bitterenss on that site is second to none and the venomous people within are scary and vindictive. They keep proving over and over again they lack morals, compassion, remorse, selfessness, etc. And who wants to be around that? You can't trust them or what they say. They pretend to be understanding and kind here then go back to TOW and mock BS's and lie about them and distort the truth, apparantly making it up as they go along. I keep wanting to scream to you to "save yourself" and think for yourself and not get suscked into their destructive thinking. It is up to the OW to make amends.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

<small>[ September 13, 2003, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

You missed my point catnip but proved my point. Only one more thing than it's really time for me to move on from this thread but remember most ow know what mm tells them. Wheather it is truth or lies. I know every aspect of xmm w life. Not that I wanted to know, but I had the ear. When a man whether he is married or not gets someone pregnant....sorry to say it involves everyone whether they want it or not. In one way or another it does. I never said that ow insists on uh to drop his family or give more time to oc and ow. I never implied that. I'm not sure where that came from. Also, I've never seen a ow throw herself on mm to make him drop his family. I could care a less what my xmm does. If he were to leave his wife tonight he still have to find someone else or be alone cause I don't want him in my childs life. Now that is not saying that he can't be. I do what's best for my kids. bottom line. I would never deprive him or his famly from his child. At the same token, if he insists on no contact....so be it....it's his lost.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB]

Wow Catnip I should of read the whole post before I posted back. I as the ow can tell you and hold my head high that I am christain. My kids and I go to church every Sunday we pray and read the bible all the time as well.

=^^= That is so cool...bless your heart. Your children are lucky to have such a great Mom who takes care of their soul as much as she cares for their physical and emotional needs.

But they (I) for whatever reason as well as the MM got into the relationship and the feelings were there. As far as hurting his family......when you love someone is that really the first thought in your head? Come on?

=^^= Sometimes the feelings are that people are just turned on or horney and interpret it as love. Most of the time the MM is looking for outside validation or has a messed up ego. Sometimes the OW gets a rush out of the illusion of being "chosen" over the wife or girlfriend. It gives her a feeling of superiority because her esteem is lacking. And it can all be interpretted as "feelings".

If you never thought about how your affair would effect other innocent children of the marriage or destroy the wife, then what you did was horribly evil and mean and selfish. If you did not think of his kids from his wife, then you cannot expect her to consider yours. If it wasn't the first thought in your head, then it should have been. It ruined someone's marriage, it ruined someone's life and they can never get it back the way it was. It as stolen from them and you stole it.

Even christains are inmortal. Even the bs is not without sin.

=^^= Absolutely! I sin all the time but I hope to God I have the wherewithall not to let it hurt someone else! I have no right to steal someone else's life. I've been immoral and I have done lots and lots of rotten things...lots. But you have to have boundaries...you have to draw the line somewhere and I think drawing the line on destroying another person's life and hurting a woman who is clueless and creating despair in her chidlren is despicable and then you have crossed the line of common decency.

Granted adultry is a biggie, but I've heard that every sin in the eyes of God is the same.

=^^= Well, I guess we can all justify stuff so we can sleep at night and not feel accountable for what we have done. Adultery is on the Top Ten along with murder, stealing and coveting someone's spouse, someone's belongings, and bearing false witness (lying) and using foul language and bowing at the alter of false gods...but, only murder and adultery cause direct major suffering to others. While the other sins cause others horrible pain, it isn't something that often changes someone else's life with such devastating results.

But if MM is pounding in his ow head how horrible the m is and wants out why would ow think any different?

=^^= Because God gave you a brain and logic...and this stuff has been going on from the beginning of time. There are endless stories, tv shows, movies, books and people in our lives that depict how men will lie to OW's and lie to their wives. And there is the question of common decency and a "sisterhood" that should prevent women from inflicting such horrible pain onto another woman. In an ideal world that is how it should be but it isn't. Since there are so many people out there who do these things every day, it is up to each of us to have enough character and dignity to avoid putting ourselves in a position like that. If we get involved with some smooth talker angling for something on the side, if we bite, then we are the fools and deserve what we get. It is universal that men rarely leave their wives for the OW yet so many OW's think they will be the exception to the rule. I'm so glad I was smart enough to stay clear of MM. What a humiliation it would be to have the MM screwing me and then going home to Suzy Homemaker and being totally in love with her..even though he has this huge ego issue and is a big baby who needs outside validation.

Then there is the saying well, if the mm is lieing to w what makes the ow think he would not lie to ow? That is absolutly right, but when your caught up in the a and feelings(love) you can't see past what the mm is saying.

=^^= But, don't you see how stupid it is to give into that illusion? It is a lie from the beginning and it's worng. It serves no one, not even the lying MM because eventually he has dues to pay and he will have ruined his life forever, too. He jeopardizes so much just so he can get his "feel goods" for a while and feel like a big shot with two women loving him. That's all it is...it's all about him. He doesn't love OW even if he says he does. If he acts loving, he's just getting off on the high of romance and intrigue...it's more fun and exciting if you are being bad and the danger of getting caught...for a little while. And, you're the blow up doll...it could be ANYONE. To a cheating MM, it doesn't matter who the babe is as long as he is getting his needs met. If he is in love with anyone, it is very likly it is Wifey...unsuspecting Wifey. He comes home feeling real bad about playing patty cake with someone else and showers and then wants to make love to the wife as an antidote for what he has done. It's sick, but that happens more than you realize. It ain't love...it's an illusion and you are being used. You feel all this love but it could be the excitement and rush of feeling "chosen" over another woman. You convince yourself she is ugly and boring and stupid and he is just there for the kids or the mortgage when he is really crazy about her and so deeply connected he wouldn't leave even if he could.

I kept my kids totally out of my a. MM was not allowed over when my kids were home. I was not going to bring my kids into that. My actions were not going to be reflected on my kids. The same goes with this oc I'm carrying. I will never have an a again though.

=^^= Well, despite the A, I certianly commend you for keeping your kids out of it and I hope your OC will bring you joy and complete your family in ways you never expected. I am so happy to hear your commiment to never having another A. That means a lot here.

"The OW can't handle a former OW regretting what she did, and the BS can't handle another BS/OW accepting a OC or having the opinions I have."

=^^= I did not say that...someone else did...can't remember who. Besides, I didn't really understand the statement she made. Please go back and reread and look for the cat ears next to my responses to indicate they were mine.

I honestly feel no matter what circumstance you are in whether it be big or small unless you've really walked in someone's shoes or are capable of being open minded to your own deal you can't have a clue how that person thinks feels or sees.

=^^= That is an overall true statement. However, since the BS is not the perpetrator in the destruction of a bunch of lives, she really doesn't care or give a [censored] how the OW interloper thinks or feels in her shoes. All the BS is seeing is her life slipping away and feeling desperate to reclaim it. She doesn't have time to consider someone she doesn't know or care about, someone who has tried to steal her life and ruin the happiness of her home and her children. She hates the OW at first (and justifiably so!)...for many months or more. It takes a lot of time and healing for her to come to a point where the existence of the OW and her feelings ever mean anything at all to her. It is like the lady down the block who I do not know, being all pissed off because I don't take the time to consider how she thinks or feels. I don't care. I never will ...and she doesn't care about me or how I feel or think...and why would she? She doesn't know me...we are not friends. As long as she doesn't try to come out of nowhere and wreck my life, I have no argument with her. I just don't need to be involved with her. My life is busy enough fixing the mess my hsuband created and trying to pull everything back otgether and it takes a lot of time and a lot of work.

All this dialogue from me is basically in general terms and not meant to be specifically aimed at you. You might have been confused and made poor choices/judgment calls, but I think you have your heart in the right place and are just searching for answers. I truly appreciate your vow of never having another A...

Good luck and God bless.

Catnip =^^=
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB]You missed my point catnip but proved my point.

=^^= Which was?

When a man whether he is married or not gets someone pregnant....sorry to say it involves everyone whether they want it or not.

=^^= Unfortunately you are right. When only one person gets to call all the shots and make all the decisions that effect many innocent people (wife, kids, extended family) the BS reluctantly become involved whether she wants to or not. She's ambushed, sucker-punched and now has to make some hard choices. Someone is about to change her life with their life altering decisions and the innocent BS is just going to have to chose to live with it, suck it up and work through it all or bail out. It's a sick choice to have to make when all you were expecting to decide was where you were going to go on vacation...now you find out that vacation won't happen for you or your kids for 18 years, among a thousand other unpleasant issues.

I never said that ow insists on uh to drop his family or give more time to oc and ow. I never implied that. I'm not sure where that came from.

=^^= A lot of this is not aimed at you but I took the opportunity to mouth off about some stuff I recently read on TOW...that's where it comes from. I'm sorry...I must be freewheeling here.

Catnip =^^=

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After reading all the responses I have a few things. For one I know that alot of the OW will do what she can to get the MM involved with the OC. I have read it on the other board how they ***** and whine not wondering why. Most of them aren't even over MM and want it to continue. I think we just read one recently. I do see where the BS furstration comes in. Remeber, I've been the BW for along time. I have read and seen some OW trying to push the OC into the family. Its a sad thing.

My H XOw contacted my H grandmother this year. After she found out the grandfater passed away. She showed up at the grandmothers house with the child, mind you he's over 4 and she never bothered before. During the visit all she did is whine how poor she is and how bad her marriage is. We came to the conclusion that she is just looking for an handout. Pissed us off. So I do know hoe some of the OW work.

Alo of us are human and make mistake. For me having the affair was a mistake. I go to church weekly with my kids and on many occasions have cried during the service cause the sermons hit home. I for one know I will never do it again. I look back at what I did, nothing I say will every justify it. Never. I have a hard time thinking I new what it was like to be the betrayed one, then I went and did the deceiving.

I do read alot on TOW where the OW is proud of her actions and if that afair ends she'll go out and find another. Its disgusting. As with the DNA test. I understand the need. XMM XW demands he gets one for the kids. But he refuses. Both he and I know that they are his. Hell, they look just like him. But when it involves the lies, how do you know the other person is being faithful? I have read how some of the single OW have both a MM and SG.

Sorry if this post jumps from place to place and doesn't make much sense. Bad headache & kids fighting. Forgive me...

Crazymum: I undersand the majority of what you are saying. All I'm saying is not all ow are proud of what they did. Not all ow push there way into the xmm family's. I'm not. As far as the dna testing goes....maybe in some cases that is true....but when the xmm tells you all the time I know your true to me, I know that you would not be with anyone else. I know you don't lie. I know the type of person you are. blah blah blah.....then as soon as he finds out your pregnant insists on a dna test to find out if it's his. Trying somehow to bow out of this situration cause the fantisey left and reality hit. HELLO??????? Not all ow have two boyfriends. In that case, of course it should be brought up. That would also put the ow in the same catagory as the mm being with more than one person at a time. Just like I also know that not all mm are cowards and liers and only looking out for themself. There are some married men out there who truely are taking responsiblity for there actions and realizing they had a hand in it and doing the right thing. I'm not talking about contact either. I'm talking about owning up. The bs is an innocent party. There kids are too. So is the oc and so why should I feel bad for those people when no one feels bad for my oc? It is two sides of the coin. The feelings are there. You just can't help it. Regarding the kids that it. Just as the bs can't help her feelings. But what I'm trying to say is........what makes the bs feelings worth more than the ow feelings. In a lot of cases the mm lied to ow. It was wrong they did what they did, but the feelings were there. Bottom line. I know for myself......it would be a cold day in hell that I would want xmm back. He proved to be the biggest lier, slef centered, errogrant man I've ever met. He ran as fast as he could. Did he face his family? NO. DId he face me? NO. Did he face anyone? NO. He put all the blame on me twisted everyting I ever said and bailed. He is not owning up to anything!!!! As far as Cat goes.....as she stated she is going off (her anger) what a different board was saying.....not even what I had been writing. Not all people in the situation is that way. I'm probaly going to have to take mm to court. Does that make me a bad person? He wants a dna test.....I actually think it's a good idea....because there could be chance it's not his???? NO because this way anytime I have a problem with this subject I've got the prof in my hot little hands. These are my exact words to xmm. xmm, you don't have to be a part of this child's life. At one point this child will want to know who you are. This child WILL have your last name. You are the father. When the child reaches the age of understanding (probaly 18) I'll give him your info it's then up to him to deside. My xmm has very big abandment issues due to being adopted. He has great adoptieve parents but still has the issues. He found his birth mom and she won't tell him a word about his father except that he was minister and she promised she would keep him out of it. He has big problems with that. Xmm does not even know what race he is. He has not a clue. He looks asian. His mom is dutch. His birth mom says I would of never slept with an asian. HELLO???????? How fair was any of that to him? Ok I'm rambling now too. Just woke up. Not all of us want to create this big mess (bigger than what we both already did) and not everyone of us want to stay in this relationship. I learned my lesson. I'll take my child and do what is best for the child.

Dear all,

I read this thread several times and hesitated to make any comment because there are so many emotions running high here.

Maybe I am naive, but it seems to me that if one of the partners in a marriage has an affair, the important thing for the couple to do is decide whether they truly want to be together. Going forward with the marriage after such a traumatic event like an affair and an OC means that the BS has been catapulted into a situation that will have many difficulties ahead and which will basically bind her, through her H, to another woman for the rest of her life.

I believe the problems come in when partners try to make the marriage work and ignore the tremendous metamorphosis the marriage has undergone. Whether you choose contact or no contact, there will be reminders of the A and C (child support payments, court visits), actual visits, holidays, etc.

And, I feel the same is true for the exOW. She has to understand that she has now been tied to the W, even though she had no such intention when the A began. But, the married couple are a single unit and the ex-OW should accept the fact that she has to deal with them both.

I am saying this because we are talking about consequences. And, I think that sometimes the betrayed spouse stays with the WS solely because of love not realizing that all the circumstances surrounding their love will now be different.

To me, staying together means understanding that the marriage CANNOT be the same as it was. Not ever. But, if you are flexible and if you want to make the marriage work -- it can work, and it can be better than ever.

The WS has created, all on his own, a very special set of consequences and I think sometimes we tend to overlook this because we are angry that changes have been imposed on us. No one likes to have their life changed without consultation. But that is exactly what our spouses put us through when they have an affair.

I particularly agree with something that I think Crazymum said "the MM lies to everyone!" I never expected the ex-OW in my life to worry about me, or to be loyal to me. She was simply a woman looking for love and believing a man who was telling her lies. Simple story -- story as old as time. Nothing Machiavellian or evil about it.

When a man is looking at you with "puppy eyes" and telling you what a horrible shrew he has at home and that YOU are the only bright spot in his life ... ah! that is powerful stuff for someone looking for their special someone.

Quite frankly, divorces happen all the time. My H's exOW had no reason to believe that my H was not going to divorce me and make a happily ever after with her.

The one thing that I don't believe is chastising any couple for the decision they have made on contact or no contact. We are talking about such complicated emotions for the adults, and with little people involved, it is better to have a clear understanding of your tolerance level. If a child is not going to be welcomed and loved, if he or she is going to be constantly disappointed by a parent that is only half-hearted, it is better for that parent to disappear. Unfortunate ... but in the long run much better for the child and for the exOW, who can then "move on", settle down and make their own happiness.

love,
heavenly

This is the main thing that most have to realize:
Not all OW are the same. Not all other women terroize the BW & push the OC on the family. Just like not all MM run from the OC. Some do take responisbility for the child. Some do want contact.

My H has nothing to do with his OC. He pays CS cause the court ordered him to, he also provides health coverage, court ordred. When we get the insurance statments in the mail and I find out that OC was in the hospital or med center, H doesn't care. The only time he pitches a ***** is when he gets a bill for the co-payment.

On the other hand with my XMM, he does everything possible for his 2 OC. He has no children with his XW. He took me to court for rights, he lost. I tried the visits with him and his w. She was the one who started crap all the time. So I ended it with her being around. She tried to have her daughter attack me once, I had my daughter in my arms and my 3 other kids in the room. I ended up being attact by her daughter and cousion, beaten with a chair. THe BW divorced MM, that is when I became pregnant with the second child. Xmm still lives with the XW and from what she tells me they are planning on getting married agin. They did by a new house this past spring. I tried the visitatons with her there again. It lasted 2 months before she started her crap again. XMM sees the kids about 4 times a week. Mostly only for a few minutes on his way to work. His XW doesn't know about these visits. He takes the kids once a week, this she knows about. She also doesn't know that he gives me money once in awhile to help with the kids. I voice my opinion on him with the lying still, but its his life. I'm honest with my H and he knows what is going on with the visits.

I got off track, but oh well. It just goes to show how I know that not all OC are not wanted, that not all MM run from the kids.