hollenhund,

We haven't heard from you in a while and I'm wondering how you are doing. Please let us know..

Well me and wife had lots of fun at Cancun..I still love her to death and some days its the best but lately I still get the feeling she is withholding info...as far as yelling at her I dont think I have ever yelled at her our entire marriage and i dont see what use it would do me now...but I have a hard time with dishonesty and finding it hard to talk to her about it ...she canceled seeing the counselor said he wasnt helping us any...says she doesnt want to go anymore...so??? Been really thinking about just leaving and starting over while we are still friends before it gets any uglier...I love my two boys so maybe I just need to grow up and get over it for their sake..doesnt sound to me like a healthy marriage though and I have always lived off check to check with some saved but man divorce will just break us both I think also so sometimes I think that isnt even an option....dont know what to do right now but someone had some advice to not make that choice to soon wait at least 6 months so maybe Ill wait..she also is getting more jealous...I shaved my mustache yesterday before I went to the doctor and she asked me why because I wanted to look good for someone else.....man now she thinks Im cheating on her ROFLMAO. not funny but it is in a way. Anyway enough for now still really confused.

I'm glad that the anti-d's are helping you cope with this ordeal.

As far as dishonesty is concerned, many people say that they want honesty from their spouses but as soon as their spouses give them the honesty they've desired, they end up losing control of their emotions and start love busting their spouses. So what's my point? If you want honesty from your W, be absolutely sure that you can handle it, for if you can't and ask for it again later on, you can be sure that she is not going to be. You may want to convey to her the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Honey as much as it will hurt me to hear the truth from you, it is much more painful for me not to know the truth. I can assure you that our marriage is not going to end because of your honesty, but it will certainly end if I discover any dishonesty on your part."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honesty can only flourish in an environment that does not punish it.

HH :

I have been lurking here on your thread. Right now you have time on your side. And, you definitely have the attitude of a man who wants to save his marriage.

You will be able to measure the progress you and your wife make and make adjustments accordingly. Having a solid Plan in place is necessary so you can "see" the progress.

Best to you!

hollenhund,

Good to hear from you again! A trip to Cancun! How wonderful. I sincerely hope you were able to put things aside for awhile and take that time to enjoy one another and really make some deposits in that ol' Love Bank! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So, one day you "love her to death" and the next you wonder if you can really make this work... so very very normal hollenhund. That's why this is called the Rollercoaster ride of your life! So many ups and downs. I sincerely hope you are able to talk her into going to the counselor again. If she still refuses, you continue to go. You're going to need help learning to deal with these ups and downs. If she is not agreeable to returning to your counselor, ask her about phone counseling from Steve Harley on this site. At any rate, you do need to continue to openly communicate with one another without any LBing!!

Did the SIL get moved out?

SIL moving out next week ...wife and me just talked and I guess she is going through the same thing because she is very jealous of her Sister...she wont goto a doctor for any sort of medication...I know she is hurting every single time we have these discussions ...it helps me alot talking about it though but thats why its hard to get started talking.

I guess I havent had too good of feelings these last few days and she says she is just waiting for me to leave her and that she thinks she deserves it because she has felt ashamed for the last 11 years...I beleive her and I hate that Im hurting her right now...man o man!

She wont goto a doctor because she is ashamed and doesnt want to explain to them why she needs some medication but she did tell me she has thought about suicide numerous times especially now that I know her darkest secret...I hate myself for not being strong enough to just shrug this off it was a long time ago and me and my wife are really made for each other I think she just made a mistake but other days I relive it!!

GOD!!

anyway Im doing better and I need to be strong for her I couldnt stand for her to hurt herself..dont know how I can get her to a doctor ...maybe Ill just give her my medicine...

<small>[ October 25, 2003, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: hollenhund ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I hate myself for not being strong enough to just shrug this off it was a long time ago and me and my wife are really made for each other I think she just made a mistake but other days I relive it!!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't hate yourself for something that all of us BS(betrayed spouses) have felt.

Caress your wife and tell her that despite the past, you love her no less than the day you married her. You know that it is true because if she were to die tomorrow you would be totally devastated, wouldn't you?

Well I felt I would post an update...
Me and wife are doing ok I guess..
I dont know why but I am always embarrassed writing on here makes me feel like a whimp.

We have our loving moments and things are going good but in my mind I wont allow her to hurt me again and I think I am slowly but surely losing my love for her. I let her go to Chicago with my sisters for one of their birthdays and the whole time I hated her for going.

I then let her go Home for Neice baby shower ..asked her next day how did it go and she told me funny but same ol same ol things...a week later she said she wanted to tell me something but was scared because she thought I would be mad...she said she had her brother and nephew take her to a strip joint(for men). She liked it and hoped I wasnt mad.

Well I think it wasnt no big deal and I told her that but really it made me mad not because she went to a girly bar but because she went when she thought I would get mad but went anyway...does that sound stupid..I am getting tired of her not thinking I have feelings..she hurts me deeply even with these small things..to the point where alot of days I seriously consider leaving...but I also am to the point of not being able to talk to her because I will not let her know ever again that she hurts me.

She went home for mothers day to visit her mother but when I called she had went out dancing with my sisters(no big deal) but she didnt tell me and I see this as a small white lie but still a hurtful one.

I used to love taking her out dancing but I dont think I will do so again in anytime soon..I dont feel comfortable anymore doing this(childish I know).

I work at a Nuclear power plant and we are in the middle of a refuel so I work 72 hours per week of only on thursday so she goes home most weekends without me and we see little of each other..

Sad to say but I really like the alone time..I love her dont get me wrong but if I cant talk to her and have these buring feelings still I lean toward leaving more and more but I am afraid..havent been alone ever. And I will sorely miss my boys.

I read an article from Ktbunch recently about a book on how to treat your man something something and started crying because my wife does do alot of that over our marriage and I think we were drifting apart anyway..Just not in me to cheat Ill seperate/divorce before I do something like that..Sister in Law worked me hard trying to get me to cheat.

Well for now I think I can bury these feelings inside but wonder how much LB'ing I can take. Crying alot more now when I am alone(made a promise to myself that she or anyone else would never see me cry again(childish i know))

I wonder what I will do when it comes around to our anniversary?? I really think if I had it to do all over again there is no way I would marry her..so is it pointless for me to stay?? mothers day I used to always get her something but this one I did not..dont really know why but I am working long long hours and I know that is what she will think.

more and more I write the more I can think of your responses why the hell am I still with her....

I have never or will ever love someone like I have loved her I never beleived in divorce because I knew she was the one for me. But I am having doubts now sorry I am crying and I am at work so I will end it here before someone sees me...

hhund

hollenhund,

Thanks so much for the update. I was thinking about you recently and wondering how you and your W were doing. Please don't be embarassed to post here. It should NOT make you feel like a whimp. It SHOULD make you feel like a strong man, taking charge, by getting advice and help to rebuild your marriage!

We have our loving moments and things are going good but in my mind I wont allow her to hurt me again and I think I am slowly but surely losing my love for her.

Normal, hollenhund. You've been hurt. After discovery that protective wall immediately goes up to shelter your heart. You're afraid to trust her again.

I let her go to Chicago with my sisters...I then let her go Home for Neice baby shower ...She went home for mothers day.... so she goes home most weekends without me and we see little of each other..

Doesn't sound like you are getting in the STRONGLY suggested 15 hours of time together. Nor is the POJA being followed when she is going here or there or making decisions while she is away from you. Hollenhund, have you REALLY read up on this info on this site? Do you really understand the need for the 15 hours of "together time?" Or a STRONG POJA followed by BOTH parties? Radical Honesty and LB's? It's important hollenhund.

I read an article from Ktbunch recently about a book on how to treat your man something something and started crying because my wife does do alot of that over our marriage and I think we were drifting apart anyway

Ok,,,she was trying to fill YOUR needs. Were you also trying to fill HER needs? Do you know what they are? Have you both filled out the EN questionaire to actually find out what her needs are?

Well for now I think I can bury these feelings inside but wonder how much LB'ing I can take.

AS tempting as it is to try to escape, you need to work through this. You can't push it under the rug and hope things will improve on their own. It's not gonna happen. It IS alot of work but so worth it when it works!!

I wonder what I will do when it comes around to our anniversary?? I really think if I had it to do all over again there is no way I would marry her..so is it pointless for me to stay??

No, it's not pointless to stay. You say you love her. It would be pointless to give up without SINCERELY trying your very best to save this marriage.

more and more I write the more I can think of your responses why the hell am I still with her....

No, I'm not going to ask why you are still with her. Your next sentence answered it. Because you love her. And if you want to save your marriage, you need to really WORK on it. It can be done,,,and YOU can do it. Read these Harley principles and APPLY them.

Are you and your W in counseling?

Hello,

What a sad story. Your wife sounds extremely self-centered and insensitive to you. After all you have found out about her privious lying, cheating and questionable paternity she still continues to play these games with you by her lies of omission. She goes to a strip bar and does not tell you until a week later because she knew you would be mad? I think she told you because she had a fear somebody would let it slip.
You call her and she has gone out dancing with her sisters? Would she just be dancing with her sisters or other men? What a great way to build trust for you by not telling you the truth and engaging in activities that would make you feel insecure. Apparently your wife feels she can do or say anything because there seems to be no consequences to her actions. The sad fact is that you are married to someone who has made you miserable and betrayed your trust in the worst possible way. Actions speak louder than words and her actions show that she puts her happiness above you and sees you as an afterthought who helps pay the bills. I feel sorry for you and your feeling are quite normal and to be excepted.
She made choices and continues to make choices that hurt you. Conversely you have a right to make choices that make you happy also. I wish you luck.

Well as far as the KTbunch book i meant she was doing alot of the things you are not supposed to do like she took control of bills she took control of alot of things and made me feel like just a paycheck...anyway no big deal.

We are not in counseling she doesnt want to go..she says that we can if I really really need to but I said no thats ok ...dont want to go if she doesnt. She just wants things to go back to the way they were before I found out.

Yes we filled out questionarre...she Needs alot of attention and I need honesty the most...after that back in November we really dont do much of the POJA etc etc she just wants it like it was.

I really feel like I dont care if she cheats again is why I let her go to chicago etc I dont know I sometimes feel it was already done ..it just isnt special to me anymore..She is only one I have ever been with and I thought it was vise versa ..sound stupid? It just isnt the same I dont feel like it is as romantic.

I think the same thing Bryanp sometimes but I have to try to give it more time but I think I really am not giving it my all because Im not pushing the counselling/Harley concepts..

Sometimes I just want to let it go but some days it stikes me hard. Today I am better but you never know....We'll see.

Does that sound weird I care but in a way I dont care if she cheats again that feeling is already lost.

Anyway I am talking nonsense so Ill end for now.

Hollenhund,

My father used to tell me "any job worth doing is worth doing well." I think you need to reflect on this. You are withholding yourself from your W. You won't tell her when she hurts you, or when you need something. You say she does try, but then she does things that hurt you.

If you are married then GET INTO THE MARRIAGE and do your best. What you are doing is hurting you, your W, your family. If you don't want to work on it, then it is time to consider leaving.

But if you stay, do it well. That is my advice to you.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

hund,,,,,,, nice to see you again.

from your post i see you and your w are lacking complete communication.

take your own example of the strip club incident.
your w never communicated to you that she would be interested in such things and you never let her know that things like that wouldn't bother you.

also remember that your w has an ingrained insecurity about telling you certain things for fear of your reaction. right or wrong it's there.

now i am no expert by any means but maybe that is one thing you could work on to help her. try and make her feel secure in the fact that no matter what she tells you will not get agry but instead discuss it openly with her.

you said you stilll love her and that she is trying to use self help books to work on your marriage.

another thing i see is that you seem to be acting the way i did in my marriage. by that i mean you will go against your own better judgement just to keep harmony in the household. the example of the counseling is a perfect one.

you want to go but she doesn't. so you just let it slide by. maybe you should explain to her eactly how important it is as you feel your love slipping away and you think the 2 of you need some help before it is to late. maybe suggest that she just try it for 3 -4 sessions and see if things can improve.

i am going to post in several short posts as i have already lost 2 posts into cyber space.

hund,,,,,,, back again.

i understand what you are talking about when you say you feel your love fading for your w. i have felt that many times throughout the recovery period with fh. i don't know why but it is just there.

trying to pick out cards for special occassions is very difficult. the wording on many cards is just something i can't bring myself to feel as of yet. why i don't know but i see them as hypocritical many times.

you said that you don't even think it would bother you if she had another A. i think this is just your defensive heart talking. i have said something simalar about fh in the way of if she still wants the om then the 2 sob's can have each other. it's a way to kind of let protect my heart.

for me it is my way of saying that i will never put up with another A from her. not that i don't love her but i will never let myself feel so dependent on her again.

jl, ,,,,, i know what you mean by saying if you want to be in the marriage then get into it. but i have to say that when things like these come into our lives it won't just go away because we say ok i'm past that. sure we don't have to let it control our actions and that is good. yet short of a frontal labotomy or sinility (sp?). i don't think i will ever forget this in my life.

fh's uncle whom i love and admire dearly said something simalar to me shortly after grace was born. he said " either put it behind you and move on or move out". for me no matter how much i forgive fh or love grace she will always be the product of fh's A. for hund the same is true. it won't matter how much he loves his w or his son everytime he sees him he will be reminded of her confession. in time the hurt will fade. but in these situations the constant visual works on your memory and takes longer. at least for me.

hund,,,,,,,, 4 - 5 times none stop. you mean like back to back to back to back to back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> what do they put in those nuclear plant lunches? have they packaged that stuff and are they selling in little blue pills? i can go around with fh 5 - 6 times in a 24 hr period if we had the time and no disturbances. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> i wouldn't be able to pick up my socks the next day though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i for one am impressed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

your marriage will survive. it will just take some time and i just wanted to let you know that i have felt the same exact things in our recovery.

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

Pops,

Actually, what you said is more what I meant. I did not mean just "get over it". What I meant to say but did a poor job of in my haste was for him NOT to let things just slide. If she is bothering him with some action he needs to speak up. That is what I meant by getting back in the marriage. He needs to start to respond, rather than just be there. By respond I mean if she bothers him, tell her. If he needs something, tell her. If he feels some compasion for her, tell her. Whatever it is respond.

I think if he does he will be able to more adequately decide if he wants to stay or go. If he decides to stay, he will enjoy life much better if his W is his W not just a roommate that he exchanges pleasantries (sp) with.

Does that make more sense?

Hollenhund, I apologize if my words indicated a "just get over it" response. I meant act, respond, interact with her, and then decide what is best for you, and your family. You have a very tough decision as do all that are on this particular part of this board. I personally think (being a guy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that the men in these situations have it worse because the child is there with them and is a reminder. It is very difficult and I really don't know how you handle it. But, posters here do and I am just amazed by the strength, dedication, and patience you, Pops, K, and others have.

Hope this makes more sense. Thanks Pops for coming to my rescue.

God Bless,

JL

jl,,,,,,, i don't know if i have the ability to rescue anyone. i just try to offer my experiences on things that have happened in my life. and by doing that hopefully i can shed some light at the semmingly endless tunnel new people here are walking thru.

i didn't mean to imply that you meant for anyone here to just get over it. i have read many of your posts and know that you have much deeper insight then that. it just reminded me if the experience i had with fh's uncle. and i didn't want hund to percieve it that way. that's all.

hey by the way aren't you in the retirement mode now? i seem to remember you mentioning awhile back that it was getting close. or am i mistaken? are you getting any golf in?

Pops,

Retirement mode. That sounds good, but unfortunately not for awhile unless all of my research money goes away. Then I might. Still have several in college and one to get there, so it will be awhile.

Did offer my W that I would retire when the youngest went to college so that she would not have the empty nest syndrome. You should have seen the look I got. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think I will be working for awhile longer.

Actually I think you gave Hund much better advice than I. Hope he takes it. How are you feeling these days. Have you been able to stay out of the clutches of the Doc's these days? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

JL,its ok I received the gist of your message.

Pops I totally agree with what you are saying...as I was reading your response I found myself shaking my head up and down often.

I want to talk to her..gonna try but .....I I feel like if she says something against what Im trying to express it will make me really mad.

A few years ago..might have already said this dont feel like re-reading my posts but the wife went to a dance ..she told me she goes to these with her sister and brother in law and only dances with him..but she then calls me and tells me she was dancing with alot of guys and she wanted to tell me because my mother showed up and she didnt want me to find out..well it made me made and I tried to let her know my feelings and she told me she was just dancing and that I needed to grow up..this was like 5 years ago.

Well if she even hints at that kind of response I know I will leave. So,,,I still think your right if I cant communicate with her then it will not ever get better so I will do this just worried about starting a fire.LOL.

And sorry about the 4-5 time thingy I have only been with one woman and didnt have a father growing up so I was wondering if that was normal and threw it in. I always see movies where the woman gets mad when the guy is a early shooter. I always didnt get the joke I shoot early but we dont stop when I was younger say 5 years ago I could last 4-5 times now its 3-4. Anyway I guess thats not for this board lol but it was a question in the back of my mind. Maybe that is what she meant when she told me it was just a one time thing she was drunk and he was horrible because he did it then fell asleep.

I am making her out to be a witch but really guys Im not totally desribing my wife ...I sincerely think it was a one time thing and I have had long talks with her where I can see she is hurt ...I really think its me I need to deal with now just having a hard time getting over it.

Communication is a must and I am just going to have to grow up and start getting back into marriage but this just blew my mind. I am not a stupid man but she made me seem like the stupidest. it hurt me my pride my mind ...etc etc etc. I find myself thinking little things that I know is revenge oriented like since she went dancing with this fellow before it happened now I dont want to dance with her anymore..We love going dancing(or I used to). Kareoke..I always sung the song by Jeff Healey (angel eyes) to her but thats because I meant every word in the lyrics..now they dont fit..I dont think I can sing that to her anymore.. Anyway I think I have alot of internal inspections to perform on myself and get a hold on..

Thanks for your comments all.

jl,,,,, my health is fine for now i quess. just finished getting roto rootered again last month. have an appointment thursday for another treadmill at which time i should get the green light for vigorous activity. fh had better whatch out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

hund,,,,,,, those feelings dealing with the kereoke stuff are also normal. there are some really neat songs (lone stars "amazed" for one) about feelings that i loved but don't like to listen to anymore because of the trigger to fh's A. what i did was stared listening to other music and finding new words for my feelings. sometimes old songs that i haven't heard for a long time.

point being you have to find new ways to love your w if the old ways work as triggers. and you have to do as jl said and let your true feelings be known. don't bury them.

if your w is insecure about your getting angry if she tells you something that goes against your grain. then learn to express yourself with out the anger. this is hard but can be done.

and i don't think you should be ashamed about coming here for advice. instead you should be praised for putting your male ego aside in order to help find ways to improve on a relationship that many would have given up on.

working on rebuilding a marriage after this kind of nuclear devistation (sorry i couldn't resist the play on words with you) shows no signs of weakness. contrary to popular belief (outside of mb) it shows the heart of a lion to work thru these catastrophies.

no need to appoligize about the 4 - 5 time thing.
i can remember back to those days, i think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> it's just been so long of doing what i once used to do all night and having it take me all night to do it once. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

it all boils down to your attitude. you can either eat sour lemons or try to make sweet lemonade with them. hang in there and you will see that things get better day by day.

Well looks like I didnt need to initiate that communication with the wife..

I thought about letting her read these articles but I was leery because on some of them I was drunk or on these wild roller coaster rides and saying things that hit you on certain days...but anyway she found this site on my history and read them..

It actually turned out to be a good thing we were able to talk about alot of things..seems she has alot of different views on it and I was wrong in alot of things.

I really think this has helped us to the correct path for healing. We both agreed today to follow the POJA and really work to try to meet each others needs.

I know this isnt the end all but it feels like it is right now.

I guess she was hurt alot about the things I was able to communicate to you guys but wasnt able to tell her.. She is right I need to be able to tell her all of these things..its just sometimes easy to talk to others especially when I dont know alot of you personally(but I do know that forums/websites can create some good friendships).

She wants me to keep writing on here if I need to but I dont know that might be harder now I dont know.

She talked of maybe writing a post on here for her to explain herself or hell maybe to even get a little payback on me for opening our closet for others to see or to bash me for being a bad husband I dont know lol.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am not afraid I love her..I think alot of you guys should get paid for your help you have given to me and if she writes please continue to help me and her if you would.

Like I said in previous post I dont make her out right and hell it might help us both..

anyway bye for now.