I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

It seems a lot of whether a M involving an OC is going to make it depends on the H's decisions, be he the betrayed or the wayward.

If a BH wants the M, he has to accept the OC, (unless of course both agree to adoption or termination).

If a WH wants the M, in many cases he needs to go NC w/ OC.

I know it's not as simple as this. POJA needs to be involved. It just seems like there ends up being only a couple different bottom line scenarios, and much of it depends on the H.

I guess I think on this a lot because:

1. I often wonder how I would handle things if I were the BW and my H had an OC.

2. I often wonder how it is the BH more times then not (on here anyway) accept the OC into their lives, yet most times BW want/need NC.

Do you think most BH would prefer NC with OC too? However, given the circumstances of OC being their wife's child, have to accept the OC in order to preserve the M?

Take good care.
~aut

I should've clarified, that I'm speaking of situations where both H & W want the M, and the decision making that stems from that point on.

Dear AD,

I think that it has much more to do with if the OP winds up being involved or not. In most, but not all, cases where the wife had the affair, the couple are raising the child with no interference from the OM. When it is the husband who strayed and fathered a child, in most cases the OW has custody. Visitation almost by its nature will involve contact with the OW.

In general, I think that there are also differences in the way men and women handle being the rejected OP. Women we know have usually or often entered into a relationship with a strong emotional attachment. I think that many OW are more attached and have more of a fantasy of sharing a future with MM. So they can be angrier, shriller and more emotinally wounded by the MM leaving the affair.

On the other hand, I am not saying that no MM who has an affair falls in love with OW. But most men in affairs have no intention of leaving their wives and families. I know mine didn't. He wanted the cheap thrills and ego gratification of an affair. So whether he dumped her or she dumped him, he was glad it was just over. Well, eventually after 7 years and numerous breakups it was over. I think his was a bit like an addiction. He felt obligated to two women. I think part of him enjoyed feeling so important to two women. It made him feel important and filled up that whole in his heart he has been looking to fill with lots of things--a mistress, fast cars, fancy clothes, a huge ego. Deep down he just isn't very comfortable with who he is and he readily admits it now.

MJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that it has much more to do with if the OP winds up being involved or not. In most, but not all, cases where the wife had the affair, the couple are raising the child with no interference from the OM. When it is the husband who strayed and fathered a child, in most cases the OW has custody. Visitation almost by its nature will involve contact with the OW.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most definitely true.

Just what you've said, I believe is the crux of why most BW need NC, and why most BH can handle contact, and in fact go on to raise OC as their own.

I don't think my H would've so easily made the decision to stay with me if x-om had contact w/ OC. Then, if x-om were to be crazed like so many of the x-ow I've heard about, who knows if my H would stay at all.

Still, it seems as if it's a "like it or leave it" for the H. The tougher decision making seems to be on him, whether he's the betrayed or the wayward.

Do we really know if most BH raising W's OC don't have interference from om?

I'm not sure what would be considered interference. My H would probably consider x-om having visitation and paying CS as interference, even if x-om didn't cause problems.

Just my thoughts and I love to hear what others think too.

Take good care.
~aut

No, we don't have real evidence. I just know I am the child of an affair raised with no contact with my bio father. On this site, K, Sailorman and some others are raising children that the bio-father doesn't know about. Pops, Mof5 and others do have visitation.

I guess I meant that even visitation and child support are intrusions. In general, I think that the BS would prefer never to hear the name of the OP again and visitation prolongs that and slows healing of the marriage. I am not anti-visitation, but I think that either Heavnly or Unsure and I are two of the few who have had visitations and plan to in the future. And I'll be honest; it is hard. It is hard to have the phone ring and it is OW looking to tell us something new about Precious. Most calls involve me, but the ringing of the phone and the intrusion into my life, let alone my dinner routine, is a bit nerve-wracking.

I just got off the phone with Mr. J. I told him that I was concerned if exOW knew too much about our lives. He says that if a phone call happens when I am not at home, they tend to talk longer about Precious and what she is doing, learning, etc. exOW asks about our boys but he says something generic about that they are growing, doing well in school and a pleasure to have around. I was worried that she was getting too many details and living vicariously through us, still picturing herself in my house, in my place.

If we are going to continue visitation, I need to have a relationship with Precious. It is to exOW's advantage if I love and care for her child. It is to no one's advantage for her to develop a relationship with our children. I am a step-mother to her child; she is nothing to mine. Any future visitation will be all four of us (Mr. J, our boys and me) in a hotel in their hometown with Precious visiting us at the hotel or when she gets older, Precious flying out to spend time at our house. It will not be our boys at her house. Our visitation brings more contact with exOW than I would like, but H does't like the alternative of no contact or drop off and pick up at some county supervised place. It is best for the child's sake if we can act civilized, but you know what? This isn't a child from a first marriage. It is a child born of his betrayl of our marriage. I think it is asking enough of me that I open my heart to this child (which I do). But having to have a relationship with exOW so we can appear to be like so many divorced families that can arrange visitation and civil meetings is a bit more than I can take. At least today. Ask me again tomorrow.

MJ

The main point you made is that if both H and W, no matter who had the EMR, want to stay in the marriage and have a life together. That is when and the decisions are made.

Some married women have had abortions, or given the child up for adoption, etc. It all depends on what the couple decides is best for them. Once the decision to stay married is made, the decision is joint.

All scenarios, families, etc are different. But if a couple decides to stay married, those are joint decisions. I have read so many places where it has said that the "bw won't allow MM to see oc" What people don't understand is that a couple,within a marriage, have decided to make that decision.

These decisions are discussed, thought out and planned. This is also the time that is the hardest on the unfaithfull spouse. It isn't easy to have to see and live with the hurt and damage they have done to the family and spouse. That is why it amazes me when I read how "ball-less" these men are!!! It would be much easier to go to the willing, eager and accepting arms of the OP then to stay in the marriage.

I also think that if a man has a wife, pregnant with OW baby, they do have time to think and work this out. Adoption? Maybe Abortion? Or if the child is already born, then to find later it isn't his? Well the attachment is there. How a man handles an OM, I don't really know. I'm sure there are a few nutcases out there.

MJ~

I'm sorry you're having a crummy day. That was me, yesterday. I needed lots of hugs.

I hope I haven't struck a nerve with you, because it certainly wasn't my intention to upset anyone.

I'm not questioning or trying to debate contact v. NC, nor the virtues or pitfalls of each. I wasn't even questioning why some choose contact and some don't. I wouldn't do that, it is a personal decision, plain and simple.

I was merely pondering the fact that in many cases a WH has to go NC (except for support) w/ OC to save his M, and a BH has to have contact w/ OC in order to save his.

Ok, I've gotten repetative now. I'll shut up for awhile.

AD,

I think what you are driving at is that a child tends to stay with its mother. Therefore, there is an embalance in the choices. The male if he is the WS must often decide to lose contact with OC because he needs to avoid contact with OW to save the marriage. If he is the BS and his W is having an OC, he must accept the OC to remain in the marriage, or he must leave, often also losing much contact with any children from the marriage.

There are exceptions Ammie (sp) was raising her H's two OC's, and he had custody of them not the OW. He left her to be with OW taking the two children with him.

But, by and large the thing I think you are pondering, is due to this embalance in the decision as to who gets to raise the children.

So, yes it often is the H that has to decide to deal with it or take a hike.

Interestingly, one poster suggested that this is often a decision by the couple, but I would say from reading here the H gets virtually no say on whether an abortion occurs or a baby is put up for adoption. I know again there are exceptions, but reading here MOST cases the pregnant woman made her decision and the father of the child and/or the H had to live with it. And then decide to stay or leave.

Another one of the embalances of life.

Who says women don't have power? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interesting question. I hope others answer.

JL

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

ladies,,,,, oh man 2 very interseting topics in one day. what will i do?

i have noticed the same fact in that a wh often (not always) goes the way of nc while a bh doesn't really have that choice if the marriage is to succeed. given that adoption and abortion were not choices.

i personally don't see the visitation with om as a problem. then again om has always been respectful when picking up grace and dropping her off.

the one time he gave fh trouble on the phone i had a very direct talk the next day with him and so far he seems to have realized his place.

i can't speak for fh completely and i know she misses grace when she is gone but it sure does give us a break to get some stuff done that would require us finding a sitter or saddling one of our older kids with that job.

fh does handle the phone calls when plans or times are to be switched. i have asked her to keep them strickly about the topic of visitation and grace (health, etc). we were laying on the bed once and he called about a pick up time and the conversation turned to them discussing their different work places. this did tick me off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> and after a loud eh-hmmm she ended the call. i simply asked to please keep her conversations stickly business format. gave her the scenerio of how would she like it if i was started talking to some other woman.

there is one really sad factor in our perticular instance. it will never happen but the strange thing is that after sort of meeting him i do feel that if fh and om would have been able to wither away from the storm we all may have ended up friends. he does seem like a nice guy. although a snake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

him and his kids do seem to be good with grace.

<small>[ October 07, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the H gets virtually no say on whether an abortion occurs or a baby is put up for adoption. I know again there are exceptions, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know the man has no say in the abortion, but if the woman gives the child up for adoption, the man does have a say. He has a right as the father to keep the child dispite what the woman says.

Interesting topic Autumnday,

JL made some very good points.

When I was small, I remember there was a couple who this happened to and they raised the child as their own. They moved away shorlty after the birth, everyone knew and the talk was scandalous.

Oc turned out to be a winning high school football coach last year. As they interviewed his mom and "dad" on the local news, I told my H the story.

That's when he said, "We would have never been able to get this far with oc/ow and visitation, Debi" "I am sorry we ever tried but at the time I felt torn in what to do, and now this long after, I know it would have tortured you and you would have eventually left me" "I want you to know I think of oc as a payment for my wrong doings and I again am so sorry that it ever happened."

So there you have it.

If it were me and I still loved my H and not OM, I would discuss all alternatives, but usually when pregnancy first occurs, the people involved in the affair are still in a fog and can't think rationally. Especially the emotional women. I think they think that om will eventually be dad to two families and that is where the disappointment usually happens.

That is why many women in the situation tell their H either accept this or hit the road. Thick fog.

Years later many would do things differently and if they truly loved their husbands, would decide together what is best for both. Who knows?

I am only surmising being the ws and their thoughts.

I am telling you first hand how it was for H and me.

love
Debi

Crazymum,

I agree with you about adoption, but if he does decide to keep the child, he loses his W. That is the point. Men have little or no say in these things, unless the woman decides to allow him to. And as Gemini said, when people are in the fog, "logic" or even kindness, much less respect are hard to come by.

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think what you are driving at is that a child tends to stay with its mother. Therefore, there is an embalance in the choices. The male if he is the WS must often decide to lose contact with OC because he needs to avoid contact with OW to save the marriage. If he is the BS and his W is having an OC, he must accept the OC to remain in the marriage, or he must leave, often also losing much contact with any children from the marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly!

In some ways it boils down to geography since most OC live with their mother. If the H is betrayed, the mother is his wife, if he is the wayward, the mother is the OW...someone who otherwise (if not pregnant) would be completely out of the picture once the M is in recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Interestingly, one poster suggested that this is often a decision by the couple, but I would say from reading here the H gets virtually no say on whether an abortion occurs or a baby is put up for adoption. I know again there are exceptions, but reading here MOST cases the pregnant woman made her decision and the father of the child and/or the H had to live with it. And then decide to stay or leave.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

Sadly in my case, as you know I didn't tell my H the possibility of baby being an OC till I was 5 months, limiting my H's options even more than if I'd been honest from the beginning. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

On d-day though, I did offer to give the baby up for adoption. H would not hear of it. I also told him I had considered abortion in the earlier months. He said he could forgive me of the affair, but didn't think he would've been able to forgive me if I had aborted the OC!!

Yes, once a couple decides to stay together all or most decisions from that point forward are joint. However, I still think to get to the point of staying together, the H quite often does not have many options.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say a BW has lots of wonderful options, quite the opposite. However, at least a BW can try to POJA NC or contact re. OC. A BH who is faced w/ a pregnant WW who has already decided to keep the baby cannot POJA, (in most cases) the issue of contact v. NC. If he wants the M, the baby comes with, package deal.

Oh, duh...I just found this. You pretty well summed it up, pops!:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i have noticed the same fact in that a wh often (not always) goes the way of nc while a bh doesn't really have that choice if the marriage is to succeed. given that adoption and abortion were not choices. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it's not that profound of a topic. As I said before, so much of it simply has to do with who the mother of the OC is...your wife's or the ow's.

JL, you also hit on an excellent point when you mentioned the children of the marriage. You spoke of how a BH leaving his WW and her OC would also cause him to lose some contact with his own children too. Opposite is true, if a WH has contact w/ his OC, it is most times at the expense of his children from the marriage.

Bottom line, affairs are so damn far reaching and so destructive.

I feel like I've spoken in circles, and w/ so many abbreviations, I'm sure I've made some typos. I need to go for now though, someone is hungry!! Hopefully I will be able to sleep from midnight to 5 am again like last night...it was heavenly!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for all the responses.

Take good care.
~autumnday

Ok, feeding the baby in front of the pc, because I had one more thought.

The main thing we're all trying to acheive post~A is a good, strong, restored marriage. In doing so, our spouses should be our main concern, they come before children of the marriage, and of course before any OCs.

I just find it interesting, yet ironically sad that a BH usually has to accept a child who is not his flesh and blood into his life, most times raising the child. Yet a WH quite often has to go NC w/ a child who is his flesh and blood.

This is just the way it is though.

The marriage is the H & the W.

H should be #1 to the W.

W should be #1 to the H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just find it interesting, yet ironically sad that a BH usually has to accept a child who is not his flesh and blood into his life, most times raising the child. Yet a WH quite often has to go NC w/ a child who is his flesh and blood.

This is just the way it is though.

The marriage is the H & the W.

H should be #1 to the W.

W should be #1 to the H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bottom line Autumnday is that the above mentioned "healing options" keep op away from the marriage for good ensuring a safe feeling for bs.

Steve Harley says the op must be gone for good for a marriage to recover.

Another interesting thing is the men here who stayed and raise the oc have love and compassion for the oc, I recall pops saying he couldn't ignore Graces' cries.... On the other side, my H didn't feel a bond with oc when we had tried contact. Perhaps it would have improved with time, but he said when oc was here it was confusing and abnormal to see his family with oc...

I guess it really comes down to what the two in the marriage can honestly handle.

As LynnG said, it would be easier to leave and run into op's arms and just start over again without decisions about C/NC, mostly here it just isn't the case. Here we share how we've healed our marriages and go on the best we can with the least further damamge to the bs...

As you've said. H is #1 to wife and wife is #1 to H....makes the world a much better place for that lucky couple.

Good topic Aut.

love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bottom line Autumnday is that the above mentioned "healing options" keep op away from the marriage for good ensuring a safe feeling for bs.

Steve Harley says the op must be gone for good for a marriage to recover.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, absolutely.

I think just about any of us could accept an innocent child into our lives even if an OC, if only the OP wasn't in the picture. If NC w/ x-OP is necessary for marital recovery, it is easy to see it's nearly impossible to have contact w/ OC when OP is part of the deal.

So while a BH may not have many options when faced w/ an OC, at least in some cases, he doesn't have the x-om to deal with! Him and his W can concentrate more fully on the recovery of their M.

Hey, I'm the first to admit and my H agrees, that we much prefer what we have to deal with in comparison to if he had an OC from an OW!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As you've said. H is #1 to wife and wife is #1 to H....makes the world a much better place for that lucky couple.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, if only all us waywards would've always remembered that in the first place, we wouldn't have created these messes. We wouldn't have put our spouses in the terrible position of having to make difficult, painful decisions.

Take good care.
~autumnday

Aut,

Excellent thread!!!! There have been many excellent points made, and I can't add anything major to them. Just in our case, Sailorman did have the choice, and we did work together. I even said to him that whatever he wanted, I would do! I wanted our M to recover, and was willing to sacrifice for it! Of course, now 3 yrs post D-day and having Abbi in our lives, I'm greatful for the choice he did make! It completely melts my heart when Sailorman either comes down the stairs in the morning, or in the door after he's been at work, and Abbi runs to him, yelling, "Daddy!!!! Daddy!!!! Daddy!!!!"

She is such a beautiful, loving child! I can't imagine life w/out her at this point! But, I also know that had Sailorman asked me to, I would have put her up for adoption!

So, we are the minority in that yes, Sailorman did have all the choices, but it wasn't "accept OC or leave the M" either. It was "do we keep OC or adopt out?", as we had both decided that we wanted the M to work at that point! Does that make sense?

Oh well, just my $.02

Love,

Tigger

Ironically, sometimes the BS is the one that wins IF the OC loves him/her more than his biological parent.

AD,

Coffeeman, touched on something that is not exactly in line with this thread but should be considered. I know there are exceptions and the teenage years can surely try one's soul, but children do bring light into ones life.

I know more than a few couples my age and older who never had kids. They had a good life with regard to the creature comforts and travels, BUT there is not one of them that isn't a little selfish, that isn't as generous with their time as they could be, that doesn't evaluate everything for what it does for them.

AGain as with everything, there are exceptions, but having children changes you in profound ways. I know it makes you more accepting of things. The BH's I feel sorry for are those whose 1st and only child is an OC. They are not prepared for what children do to their lives AND they have to deal with the betrayal.

I know K, and, I think Pops, have voiced the opinion that since they had previous children with their W, that the OC was easier to accept and adjust to.

AD your H may feel the same way. It seems he has always view your child as a gift. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That is a wonderful way to look at something that can just rip your heart out.

I think if the truth be known women who's H's had an OC are also at a disadvantage as well, but in a different way. They never get the chance to decide if they can have OC in their lives full time. The OW most often has the child. Yet, occasionally that does happen, and I suspect if the BW can make that decision, then the existence of the OC is less of a challenge, because the upside is a child in your life.

Sure is a complex simple topic isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

You said it JL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Tigger4jdt I remember those tough days you had and I do believe you and Sailorman did work things through together. I imagine the fog lifted so quickly for you when you found om to be a mental case!!! It doesn't always happen that fast in most cases.....

And Autumnday it WOULD have been great to put ones spouse first always, but as long as you and your H and my H and me do it now, what else could go too terribly wrong? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
love
Debi