Before beginning my sordid story, I would like to thank all of the "oldies" for helping me through the last 2 years and to get to the SEMI-sane place I am in today. Without the kind words of the long time Marriage Builders like Catnip, Gemini, CD, Tigger, Mary Janes and countless others, I am sure I would have perished in the land of "I am the only one in the world that this has happened to." And to all the newbies, thanks to them also, for having the courage to come forward and share more horrid tales of our shared sagas.

Now on to my story, which is much the same, but much different than others I have seen these past 2 years. My D-Day was May 2001. Things were not going well in my marriage, it was in a rut, but nothing I saw as unsalvageable. I never dreamed that the closeted secret existed - you know, the wife is always the last to know, especially a secret that had existed for this long....Seems that my husband had an affair in the spring of 1985 with a married co-worker where we used to live, while I was 8 months pregnant with our first son. (Seems he just couldn't accept responsibility for my large belly and impending birth and chose to escape with this woman a handful of times after work when I thought he'd gone to get a beer with a buddy.) Apparently this woman became pregnant (this was her third child "with" her husband), my husband freaked out and chose to break off the relationship and she stayed with her husband, who was never the wiser that this OC was not his and the two of them remained married until this child was around 4 years old. They divorced, she remarried another person and had 2 other children. My husband has since told me that over the course of those 15 odd years (after we'd moved and she knew where we'd moved because her father knew us), she called him a few times at work to say Happy Birthday and such, but she never mentioned this OC, apparently waiting for my husband to accept responsibility is what she later told me. Then in the spring of 2001, she called my husband to say that in a fit of rage with this child, she had blurted out that her "real" dad (BTW he apparently abandoned the 3 children from this marriage and only paid child support on them, but NEVER saw them while living in the same town), was not her "real" dad, but my husband, who the OC didn't know AT ALL was her bio-dad and since she knew now, would he like to meet her. And like I said before, things in my marriage at that time were a little rocky, so my husband took this opportunity to step to the plate and start contact with this "daughter" he'd never met, even though it was a 3 1/2 hour drive. The mother and child came here on a Friday afternoon for a couple of hours and then the mother decided to tell him she was separated from her current husband and SHE came here one weekend after that ALONE while I was out of town at a wedding. They met in a motel room and you know what then. After a 14 year separation, it had just fallen right back into the old affair routine. They had started calling each other and for about 3 months, the mother used the daughter as a pawn to try and better herself with a new husband, mainly mine. When my husband didn't tell me and didn't leave me in the 2 month time frame she saw appropriate, she had someone call me and tell me he had a child with someone else. I was devastated, blind-sided and in total disbelief that this man I married was capable of ANY of this nightmare. But I ended up doing plan A before I even found this site......I thought they were talking and seeing each other just because of the girl, not because she was separated and they were having an EA on a daily long distance basis. He only slept with her the one time this go around but when I found out about the OC, he continued to talk to them, and for the sake of my marriage and how long ago I THOUGHT this affair had occured, I was prepared to treat the OC like a child of divorce and step-mother her, even though the son that I had been pregnant with is only 8 months older than his "sister". And I might add, I forced his father to tell him about this situation the very night I found out and it was much more than any 16 year old kid needed to be dealt. He wanted/wants no part of any of it - said his father had turned our family into a Jerry Springer show.

Fast forward to July of 2001.....The mother still refuses to allow me to meet with OC, says it is too soon, that she needs to monitor a few more meetings between the girl and her father before I get sprung into the picture. I have since convinced the oldest son to go along with a meeting of the OC, afterall, she is his "sister" whether he likes it or not and she didn't ask for any of this any more than we did. But the mother is now starting to give ultimatums to my husband about leaving me, and when is he going to, and when are they getting married, etc., which my husband, although himself seemingly getting something from this woman by talking to her so much, is trying his best to rekindled trust in our relationship and is spending lots of time and effort on me and our family which also has an 8 year old boy in addition by this time. So finally, my husband lays down the law to the OW and tells her he loves me, loves his boys, has too much time invested in OUR life together and he just has a relationship to work on with OC, not her. She loses it.....calls me and that forces him to have to come clean about the recent motel trip and she tells me lots of other things that don't make sense, most of them just trying to get back at us over the hurt and frustration of it all. But in the end, it came down to her ceasing ALL contact between 15 year old OC and us.......said if she couldn't be me, then he'd never see the OC again and he hasn't. She told me on the phone that night that the OC didn't want any of the contact to begin with, she was used to not having a father figure that her step father hadn't gotten along with her and that she just didn't care if my husband was in her life or not, that she didn't get attached to anyone after the man she THOUGHT was her bio-dad ceased all contact when she was four.

It was very confusing to me to think that the OW had orchestrated all of this more for HER own needs and wants and that after allowing the OC all this contact with her bio-dad, she just was willing to pull the plug and punish this innocent child.....but then I got to thinking, this OC is 15, almost 16 at this time and she is quite capable of picking up a phone and calling her "father" if she WANTED to.....but she never has, except one time last year to tell my husband that her grandmother had died. (my husband had know her grandparents quite well years ago) My husband tried to ask her how other things were going, but she acted like she didn't have anything to say, so we have left it at that. This OC had NEVER once ask my husband a single personal question on the phone or in person when her mother brought her to our town on weekends and they went out to eat, etc......it was like she wasn't a participant in it at all and she was just going along with her mother's wishes to be here. I just don't know what to think of any of it that someone could do that to their own child - throw the starving dog a bone and then snatch it away???? I pray for the OC all the time, but sometimes I am scared that she will turn out like her mother without any outside guidance and that someday she'll set the same examples for her children that her mother is setting. And no, I am really not bashing the OW, just realizing that things I know about her are not things I find good mothering examples, not that my husband exhibited a good example to our boys either. I barely knew the OW years ago, wouldn't recognize her if she rang my bell tonight, but something in her had to be good or my husband wouldn't have picked up with her all those years ago, or 2 years ago either. It took 2 to tango, and they were both wrong, both times, but my husband did say that since he'd already been with her all those years ago, this most recent transgression didn't seem like a "new" affair, just an extension of the one before, so if he was wrong then, he'd only have been committing adultery once in the whole thing. Not a good way to think in my eyes, because EACH time is adultery, but that is just another difference in the way men are wired to think I guess, or maybe just my husband thinks warped.

Anyway, any speculations or views on this would be greatly welcomed. After using all Marriage Builders principles and reading materials together, I STILL have ravaging bad days and unlike Mary Janes previous post, I have been unable to keep my mouth shut and most times I love bust BIGTIME with what I shouldn't say and we back slide into square one, or at least square two, althought the bouts are further apart. The pain is still enormous, even after 2 1/2 years and the mistrust and fear I feel that "THEY" will come back and I will never know again is sometimes too much to endure. And that is what I feel is different about my story, because most of you have young OC, not teenage ones that came into the picture MUCH later and still stirred up stuff after 15 years of me being stupid and in the dark. The lack of trust I have for EVERYONE now has altered my personality and I would very much like to get back to some HAPPY spot in my life, some SAFE place where I feel like waking up in the morning for the sheer joy of it.

SORRY SO LONG, thanks for listening, hope you guys will continue to help me through this.

deltamoon

Hi deltamoon,

Wow, it sounds like you really love your husband!

It also sounds like the xOW needs your prayers too so that she can get her life together and focus on raising her kids.

It sounds to me like she was alone and single and desperate and knew your H was a good man so she called him. Too bad he didn't tell you and turn toward you so you both could work through the solution together.

What's done is done tho and you know how WS's are, they don't react too well when they are expected to be repentant... for some reason? Pride, maybe?

I don't know. From what I have read here a lot, they just want the BS to get over it and move on and never talk about it again.

Sadly, that's not reality. The damage is done and the triggers will always be there. It's finding ways to deal with the triggers and having wisdom to know when to pray, when to bring it up, when to vent to others, and exactly what to say!

So much of your ability to freely express your feelings depends on where your WS is--is he with you 100% or is his heart divided. Only he can tell you if he is ready to work on your relationship 100%.

Regardless of his decision, you have some decisions to make about your life! Regardless of OW/OC, you and your kids have a life to live and you sound like you are doing well.

I'm glad you shared your story. Hang in there and keep the faith!

<small>[ October 09, 2003, 02:44 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Deltamoon,

Has ow been gone since 2001? If so I strongly urge you and your H to get some counseling. You both need tools and skills to deal with his 2 time betrayal or it can happen again.

Your continued feeling of rage may stem from the fact that your H hasn't come clean with you. Mine was stll talking to ow behind my back during her pregnancy and I always felt things were still not "right" between us at that time.

You must be sure and your H needs to do things to make you feel safe again.

Perhaps you can e-mail the counseling center for an appointment...

I'll check in soon to see how you are.

love
Debi

Hi and thanks for the replies to BTDT and Gemini....I am not very computer savvy, but I will try to reply to both your replies in one post.

TO BTDT: Yes, I do love my husband very much, but sometimes I feel that I shouldn't and I guess that is where the problem lies. What kind of woman could possibly LOVE a man that is capable of doing this to her? And it is also back to that old saying of what we would or wouldn't "PUT" up with if it happened to us in our marriage.....and after it happened in mine, with a man I really couldn't see being a cheater, let alone fathering another child outside the confines of marriage, I totally re-evaluated everything in my life and what I had always thought I'd do if this happened to me. Now I know better than most that marriage is definitely a 50/50 proposition and looking back, I wasn't giving my 50% any more than he was. Maybe if I would have made the first move to be a better person in the marriage, this second trist with the OW wouldn't have occured at all, even though the secret of the OC would eventually have had to come out. I can remember him telling me after the second time was all out in the open that I had been so distant, he thought I was already having an affair and he was actually doing it to get back at me or "get me before I got him" type attitude. And I wasn't having an affair, it NEVER crossed my mind, but I sure didn't act right toward him. Still somedays I wish I didn't love him, somedays I think that by staying in the marriage it sent him the signal that anything would be forgiven, anytime, no matter what or when in the future it happened. And sometimes I can't stand the thought of what it all did to our then 16 year old son and what message I sent him by staying, but he was the one that ended up saying that no one is perfect and if his father was trying to make amends and put it all out on the table, that he felt that forgiveness was better than running away and for me to give it some time and see what happened. So deep down inside I know that this all coming out in the open was a blessing to us both and our family, even though I know that my husband would have liked to have kept up some contact with the OC, even if it was just occasionally. I am just still skitish and can't seem to let the wall down completely yet. And he is like you said....the WS just wishing I would get over it and get on with our lives. He tells me, it was OVER 2 years ago and it is time that I get it through my head that he has apologized and done everything he knows to do to fix it. And I have to agree, but sometimes when things just weigh on my mind and some stupid trigger occurs, I just come unglued and end up bawling for 30 straight minutes. I guess that is why I chose to post now after all this time, I just need a support system of people that it has actually happened to, not someone with just classroom knowledge of basic problems.

TO GEMINI: Deep, deep down, I don't worry so much about my husband choosing to have an affair again, it is more about this Jerry Springer show type image this entire situation conjures up in my mind. I understand how and why he had the affair all those years ago, we were newly married, we had just bought a house, my father just died suddenly and then bam, I end up being pregnant when I had been told it was going to be virtually impossible to conceive. All this in less than 8 months! I was a very pre-occupied basket case myself. Neither of us had been expecting to have a family at all, and after my father died, I dove head first into my job and then I was pregnant. I was overjoyed at the prospect of being a mother, but my husband on the other hand was not ready, although he hid it VERY well. But I do find it ironic that the very thing he ran from me for ended up happening to him again. We have had counseling, plus we have done everything that the Harley's recommend doing. I just am the one to end up doing the love busting, he never has given me anything but support. And when you say I have rage, I really don't have rage or anger about the situation, I feel more fear. Fear of putting my heart and soul out there and maybe not getting enough back to make me whole again. My husband is very attentive, and although he was more supportive of my occasional "bad days" in the beginning, I can't see him going outside the marriage again, but I still feel the need to let him know that I may have forgiven him but I still need to let him know I haven't forgotten. And I know that neither time of the affairs did he do it for the sex, it was for the approval/acceptance of a woman and he just felt that after you saw someone outside of your marriage X number of times, then sex was the next step. And as to this last one time event, she initiated the contact by driving 3 1/2 hours to get here (and yes he was in the wrong by not telling her don't, which he readily admits to), and he went by her motel room, stayed less than an hour and a half, and that was the only time he had any sexual contact with her in the 3 months that followed where he continued to talk to and see the OW and his daughter when they came here one weekend day about every 3 weeks. And that is from the OW telling me, not him. He felt so guilty after that one time with her, and then I found out within two days of that motel trip that the OC's existed, from that point on, he has been totally committed to making all this up to me, solidifying our marriage, and spending as much time with our two sons (one who is too young to know about all of this). So it isn't so much that I feel like he will slip back into an affair with anyone, I guess it is more my problem that I don't know the OW and I wonder what there was about her that he found appealing over me and it has come down to destroying my self esteem. No matter how much he compliments me, praises me, acts like he adores me, I just feel like all of it is happening because he had an affair that shocked him into realizing what he had wasn't all that bad and he could have messed around and lost it all. And why it took all this pain to come to that realization? Why didn't he just love me so much back then that it never crossed his mind? Does any of that make any sense? And I know that I am better off than many who post on this board; I know that although somedays I wish we had some sort of contact with the daughter, the OW is part of that picture and after the second fling, I can't go there and maybe after the girl is gone from home, she will initiate some contact someday. And that is a POJA on both of our parts. But with NC all these years, and me being in the dark, we avoided the costly child support, the harrassing phone calls, the rumours, the shock and disbelief of it from ALL of our families and friends, everything I have read on here that goes on. I did lose some "friends" over the situation, people who were so against my decision to stay and work things out with my marriage, people who didn't EVER want to see my husband again after what he'd done to me, but I guess everything in life ends up being a trade off. Thank you for your concerns and recommendations for my life......I will continue to monitor the site and post when I feel I have something relavent to contribute.

deltamoon

Was there ever DNA testing to prove that your H is the bio-dad????

Whole thing sounds fishy.

Pep

Pepperband,
No DNA testing was ever done. I had often prayed that the OC wasn't really the OC afterall, until my husband brought a picture home to show me what she looked like before I was "supposed" to meet her. No denying that she was the splittng image of my husband's older sister and also her daughter at their same ages. Too many huge similiarities to make me think otherwise or I would have forced the DNA issue right then, especially before I got my 2 sons dragged into the picture, thinking this was their half sibling they were about to meet. And I really thank God to this day that none of us besides my husband ever met her or spent time with her since it turned out the way it did.

I think I would have to say I was pipe dreaming to think that this child wasn't really my husband's, but I, like you, have felt there was something fishy about the entire thing many, many times; that maybe all those years ago, the OW had actually become pregnant by her real husband and wanting out of her marriage to begin with, she found out she was pregnant after sleeping with my husband, she approached him and tried to make him think that the baby was his to see his reaction. If he would have chosen to tell me and we had split up at that point, then she'd have probably ended up with him, at least for a time, but he chose not to tell me, reacted very badly to the fact that she was pregnant, and ceased seeing or talking to her immediately. He said he was in denial that the OC could possibly be his; and DNA wasn't that prevelent back then like it is now to double check without raising a lot of suspicions. He didn't even know that the baby had been born until it was about 2 months old, and didn't even know her name until the Spring of 2001, so he was very good at putting things back in the back of his mind and going on with life.

My question has always been why the OW wasn't vindictive enough back then to spill the beans to me, yet she did in 2001? Maybe it is like BTDT said and she was feeling all alone at the time, desperate for a man in her life, and she just decided to pull out all the stops at this point and time. (And she did tell my husband that she was into the Internet dating connection thing already, and she had driven all over 3 states at times to meet the guys she e-mailed over these services. She was also taking this teenage OC with her for these meetings....???) But again, trying to force my husband's hand backfired on her and I honestly think she had had enough of her own pipe dreaming at that time and came to realize that she wanted NOTHING else to do with my husband anymore than he did with her. But the innocent OC, regardless of her age and never having met my husband, was given some thread of hope of some kind of relationship with a man that she thought at this time to be her bio-dad and I have wondered what the overnight loss of contact did to her. But then on the other hand, like I said before, the OC never once questioned my husband about anything personal, his likes, his dislikes, what he did with his spare time, she never brought pictures of what she looked like as a baby or growing up, she just talked about what she had done at school that day and what she was doing the next week, etc. She never once mentioned our 2 sons, never asked to meet them or see pictures of them, never asked about me, it was like none of us existed, even though she knew that my husband and I had been married 18 years and we had these 2 boys together. And I found that strange for a 15 year old teenager not to have ANY questions or comments about anything. I don't know what her mother had told her, don't know what her mother told her in the end, except that I do know the night that the OW ceased all contact between my husband and the OC, the OC was right there in the background when I was talking to the OW on the phone. It was very matter of fact and the OW told me "she'd always had someone else in her life besides my husband and that she and OC would always be just fine without him - afterall, she had her daddy still paying ALL of her bills, except for the little bit of child support her first husband was paying on two of the three children she had with him that were still under the age of 18." So maybe she was just a cold fish about it all and that had rubbed off on the daughter and neither of them really cared if the "plan" that she said the two of them had to snag my husband back into their lives came to pass. I hope I never have to know how really low their end of the situation became. I just know that it hurt my husband to know that he had made contact, and although he admits that he and the OC never bonded on any level, he thought maybe he still could have been a contributing force in her lifestyle someday, someone to negate some of the examples that her mother was giving her that he witnessed. All I know is that I will carry the scars of this entire mess for the rest of my life and so will my now 18 year old son; and God forbid the day that the 10 year old son has to be told about it all......maybe that day will never come. ????????

deltamoon

Dear Delta Moon..........Wow. What a story. I appreciate you sharing it with us.

I'm so sorry you've found yourself in this situation but grateful that you have found some comfort here...and it sounds like you understand and are working the Harley principles.

I agree with Gem that scheduling a meeting for counseling for you and your husband is imperitive right now as he seems to be minimizing his recent behavior (denial) and you need to know that you and your feelings are being taken into consideration so you can begin to heal.

Your husband is fortunate that you have forgiven him and are willing to work through this. But, don't make excuses for his behavior. What he did years ago was wrong and that he went ahead and did this again years later is amazing. What he did, regardless of how tough things were when you first married or what the fates dealt you, is not your fault, so don't beat yourself up.

It never ceases to amaze me how OW's can be so incredibly intrusive into a family's life thinking nothing of anyone but themselves. This OW of yours never considered her daughter once and uses here to find men. What a horrible example for this poor kid. She obviously never gave your two boys a thought or considered what a horrible impact this would have on you. These women who do this have earned their karma.

I'm glad you were exempt from having to pay support as long as the child has always been taken care of by her stepfather and grandparents. As far as your "friends" are concerned; the ones that really matter are still in your life. A crisis such as this will "weed out" fair weather friends; which is a good thing, even if it doesn't feel like it right now.

I'm glad you've been lurking these past couple years and that you have finally posted. You've been very generous in giving us such a complete story.

Catnip =^^=

Deltamoon,
Did you ever ask your H where his love for you was back then?

You may be surprised to know he DID love you and never intended for things to go so out of control. Still it was flat out wrong to seek out attention from someone else when he could have tried to talk to you to see if things could be improved between you in any way. You know? To seek soloutions together.

It's troublesome to know that he still went back to her all those years later thinking you'd never know. I know that it must be hard for you and the two of you must find a way to come to terms with that. Curiosity may be why and a renewed feeling of euphoria, if only for a few selfish moments may be the reason.

Now quit trying to guess why ow showed up again. What matters is if she does again, your H must tell you and you two must have a plan of action. That's where the Harleys give fabulous advice!

How is your older son? My son was a few weeks shy of turning 21 when his dad told him.....before he told me! YIKEES!!! That kid was a severly changed man that weekend and was acting sooo strange. I sure found out why that dark icy cold Monday!

Our son was hospitalized over everything and was put on a variety of meds. I shudder to remember. Like your son, when my H returned to our home asking for another chance, our son told me "Dad loves you, don't leave him Mom. I want a real family like I have had all my life!"

I hope your son is ok now.

You showed him married love can take a lot and can forgive if the person asking is truly remorseful. You didn't show him weakness but just the opposite. When he is grown with his own family he'll admire what you and your H overcame.

Either way, divorce or staying is hard on everyone, Deltamoon. Staying is perhaps a little harder because it forces you to look deep inside each other and yourselves. It allows you to know each other a little deeper than before. You see a deeper appreciation from your WS.

We all have those days of "I wonder". I'll bet your H does too but in a different way.

Many times my H has expressed a wish to go back in time. Usually during a sappy movie and he wells up with tears as he says it.

I am glad you shared with us and encourage anyone else who lurks and has had this happen to post.

Two years isn't that long. It takes ten years or longer to feel normal after a regular affair (?) happens, let alone one that produces a child. For us women, I guess it's because a child is our very special gift to our husbands. I remember telling my H what I did wasn't special anymore and him telling me I couldn't be more wrong, then went through the differences.

Prayers and blessings to you, Deltamoon.
How about when you feel like blasting your H with a LB, come here and talk it out. We're here for ya.

love
Debi

Hi Catnip, thanks for the reply, and the words of wisdom you've posted oh so often. As to counseling for my husband and me at this time, I really think we've passed that stage in our problem, especially after having already hashed it out many sessions before. Sometimes I feel like going over it seems to open old wounds and creates more problems than it fixes and I want to be beyond that feeling. My husband isn't really in denial to what he did or the fallout of it on our family - to the contrary, he feels beat up and helpless about it every time I backslide. And everytime I do backslide, the next day I look back on it and see how stupid and trivial it was and that IF I had just kept my mouth shut for 20 minutes or so, then it wouldn't have been an issue at all, it would have passed. I am just reactive, paranoid and tend to think things are the way I see them, when most of the time they are not. My husband tells me that he has been made to feel like no matter what he does or says that it will never be enough to make up for the pain he has caused me, and I guess I have sat back and waited for him to fix things and on some days, I have not paid attention to the fact that he still needs me to give him something, whether it be a showing of affection, acceptance, forgiveness, support for a bad day at work. But I also have actually said to him that sometimes it feels like he has tried to put a bandaid on an amputation and that it just really isn't fixing the problem, so I can't blame the guy for wondering what he is to do. And he has given and given and tried and tried, but a lot of times I have acted like he wasn't doing enough. This whole entire scenerio in my life has just completely changed my personality and where I used to be cocky and independent, I am now clingy and insecure. And this week, after finally posting on here, I feel different somehow, like a release valve has been let off, and I was able to say some things to people who had been through this and knew what it felt like, instead of a minister telling us his view, or a clinical psychologist going over things again and again. Afterall, I guess every counselor will have a different PERSONAL view of how to handle things and we could go to another one that would put other notions in our heads, so right now I really think we have overcome the initial stuff that required the counseling in the first place to keep from killing one another...HAHA?
Have a wonderful weekend, and thanks again!
deltamoon

I have always maintained that this site has given so many Betrayed a safe place to vent their frustration, pain, anger and sadness so it gets dumped here instead of being spilled over into our households, thus saving the marriage from becoming the dumping ground of resentment and hostility and offering sactuary to our souls and marriages and homes. That's why I become so impatient with people who get upset with people who are having a tough time and might say things that others call "hate and bitterness" which I feel is an entirely normal "phase" in recovery and necessary to vent here to keep the recovery momentum going. If you say it here, you can leave it here and the Wayward is not perpetually punished and forgiveness can come to everyone.

Please pay attention to meeting his EN's...I hope he is working to meet yours as well. I am glad you are feeling better and learning and growing...keep working the program and keep posting. You're on your way.

Cat =^^=

PS If you ever feel the need to try counseling, you MUST find one that understands the MB principles to avoid the counselors who believe in cutting losses and moving on without working on the marriage. A good place to start is the Harleys themselves.