gem,,,,, thanks for the invite. but the problem i have is that it is very hard for me to talk with fh about this stuff.

the recent tiff started about what i wrote on mj's and autumn's threads and has excalated to her having a similar attitude as before. (no i don't see any rekindling of an A).

it seems that when i try to talk with her about an en that i feel is being unmet she instantly goes to the "so i'm not doing anything right" mode.

so what happened? i don't know. last night was back to school night. so we prepare a quick diner for the kids and her and i go out to eat. i try explaining that one of the problems i am having is that I don't feel or see the continued effort on her part to meet my en's. that they are very spuradic (sp?). and until i can see some sustained committment on her part to meet those needs it will be hard for me to really let down the wall i have built around my heart. i am tring very hard to say these things in a none ultimative, threatening or accussing way.

at back to school night she holds my hand all night and then when we get home there is no signs of affection. we fall back into our state of limbo.

have to take my son to school now so i will continue later.

Pops,

Let me ask you some questions. When you discovered the A, and when you and FH decided to stay together, how much counseling did you all have?? Have the things that placed her in a position to make the decision to have an A chagned?

Have you and FH sat down and really examined this whole situation?

I know you have to some degree, but I am suspecting that she feels you should be "over it" by now. Obviously your are NOT. What is left to do in your mind? Where are you insecurities coming from in your mind? What can she do to help you with these?

I ask all of this because FH cannot have a life sentence, although your daughter will always be in her life. You cannot have a life sentence either.

What is it going to take? What is missing in your mind and can you be specfic about it??

I fear she is sliding back into whatever state she was in before her affair, and I suspect you fear the same thing. But, is she really or are you just hypersensitive now?? That you need to decide.

I look forward to your post.

God Bless,

JL

Ok, pops,

Did FH ever start to meet your en's post A? Had you two discussed each others needs? Fill out the questionaire found on this site?

That may help, but putting up the bucks for a session or two with Steve Harley is really worth it.

It seems through following your story that you and she placed things on each other in spite of how the other felt. Examples: FH continuing breastfeeding. You bringing om to court for CS.

You both really never agreed or did so reluctantly, on either issue.

That is a break in the policy of joint agreement. Each party should be entusiastic with any decisions that are huge and affect the others life.

I also suspect you'd like a pat on the butt or an unexpected kiss on the ear, anything to show more affection.

I urge you to counsel with the Harleys or stick around here and let us try to guide you two back into each others arms.

You've come to far to just slip through the cracks of miscommunications between you two!

I'll check in tomorrow or later..

BTW JL gave some real thought provoking questions to answer!

Debi

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Dear Pops

I thought what you wrote on both Autumn's and Mary Jane's threads were so sensitive and completely honest and open and I can't figure out why those tender words would upset FH.

If it were me, I would be grateful for the insight into my spouse's heart unless your pain just makes her feel guilty. If she could get past what she feels and step back and concentrate on you, then she wouldn't feel that way. Sometimes, Pops, it should be all about you for a while. You have both compromised to the other's chagrin, like Gem mentioned, however, things have been going fairly well for some time now and you keep coming here searching for answers and we have all witnessed your progress and have seen how far you have come since the early days when you were so filled with rage and disappointment...and confusion. FH should be so completely delighted and grateful that you adore Grace as you do. Sometimes Wayward's have a tough time with any kindness because they are struggling with their worthiness and maybe FH struggles with that like Bipolar did. It took him four years to get over his guilt and remorse but once he did, he freed himself from constantly beating himself up about it, allowing him to be open to me and love me again.

If you have forgiven FH, look into her eyes and tell her so. There are things you can do to bring romance back into your lives, too. Flowers and a night out together dining somewhere lovely would be a nice start. I know things like that are expensive, but sometimes something is too important to worry about money and you can't afford NOT to do it.

Maybe FH is just feeling down and it will pass. But, just in case it is something deeper, don't let this slide. Investigate and be proactive and let her know how much you lvoe her and how much Grace means to you.

You are entirely entitled to your feelings and to have a moment or two of a pout now and then. These things don't evaporate overnight and it is unrealistic for Waywards to expect so much from the Betrayeds...they have to stop worrying about their own feelings and take a look at their spouse too.

I marvel at your kindness and compassion and progress. You're OK, Pops.

Cat =^^=

jl, gemini, & catnip,,,,,, thanks for the replies. i will try to respond to all but since i type so slow it may take until tomorrow.

first let me say that even though there are times when i get triggered i don't feel i am ho;ding the A against fh anymore, or have for some time now.

jl,, at the time ofthe A we id attend some counseling. 2 sessions prior to A ( which she stopped before 3rd as that is when pa started) and about 10 - 12 sessions post d-day. had to quit as my health insurance was cancelled.

as far as meeting her en's since A i can't say whether the answer is yes or no. she would have to answer that. the main en that i was apparently not meeting was time. since d-day we have spent much more time together. we (the 2 of us) do most things together, shopping (all kinds),drpping off kids, almost all of the kids sporting events, school meetings, and we probably go out to diner,lunch or breakfast alone at least 2 or 3 times a week.

as far as whether i am "over it" by now i would have to say my best estimate would be 80%. i don't dwell on it but do get triggered now and then. when triggered i haven't beat on her and ususally just say that i am feeling a little wierd at the moment. mentioned some where in another post.

and yes i have had no trouble expressing my en's. i don't harp on it any more as i feel it only gets her defensive. she has said to me that she understands what my en's are. so now i feel it is up to her to decide whether she can meet them or not.

as far as the life sentence is concerned i feel that i have forgiven her for the A and by no means want to make her feel quilty for it. i don't however think she has come close to forgiving herself as of yet.

i will address what i need in my reply to gemini.

i don't feel like i am being hypersensative but i do feel like she is sliding back or maybe never really excaped the place where she was that lead her down the A path. i DON"T feel that she is looking to have an A.

last time i saw her A progressing from the ea to the pa but i was in such a state of denial that she would actually have one i didn't believe my own eyes or ears. you know the old hindsight saying.

gem,, jl asked some very good questions but i tink you and catnip are more on trck of what is happening with us.

first let me say that without knowing about mb's i bought his needs/ her needs and read it about 15 - 17 years ago. i expressed at that time to fh how much sense the love bank made and that i wanted her to read the book also and take the questionaire with me. at that time she thought that it was stupid. also at that time i realized that i was not meeting her en's for the most part and changed myself to make a very continued effort to meet as many of the en's in the book as i could for her. listening, conversation time (i thought), bringing her spur of the moment gifts such as flowers and cards to show her affection. financial stability to the best of my abilty, domestic support (would take off work to watch the kids if she had something to do, always helped with the household chores and never minded changing diapers).

she did tell me that when i brought the flowers home and the little girls would want to takethem to her so i let them. she said she thought they were from them and not me.

i do agree that the harley's could most definately help i am sorry to say that there is no way that we could afford them at this time.

you are right that we both just kinda went into some areas without being enthusiastic. i do feell that the court was the right thing to do because i honestly believe that without it she would have found some hit and miss reason to meet him and allow him to see grace. i think that is just her.

the pat on the butt or kiss on the ear are most definately welcome on my part. in fact that is my #1 en. to feel like i am wanted and desired. not just here because we have grown accustomed to each other or feel trapped together.

yes just post d-day she did meet my en's often. maybe a month or 2. but that soon went by the way side.

i do find it hard to believe that when she tells me that she loves me every 2 weeks or so when her actions don't support her words.

i find it very hard to put forth much more effort meeting her en's while feeling like i am getting very little in return. maybe i am being selffish here but i read here about ws's who are showering their bs with en's in an effort to repair the damage. now i DON'T want a slave by any means.

i feel that i gave alot in the years prior to the A and recieved very little in return. i don't feel like i can take that chance again. she has to make some kind of sustained effort in my opinion.

i quess that tigger said it best when she said in another post that she was willing to sacrifice and commit to whichever decision sailorman came up with. i am looking for more than a hit and miss effort from fh even if it means stepping out of her shell.

catnip sorry i can't reply to your post right now but my 8 year old is hounding to get us off to her soccer practice. will respond either later tonight or tomorrow morning.

hope this gave you all some more insight into my delema. pops

pops, I'm taking time out of watching the baseball playoffs with my H to answer some things for you.

I find it incredible that you bought that book some 15 odd years ago and FH still fluffed it off. My guess is you were knee deep into kids and she was too tired to hear you.....

I know you now have her full attention.

Pops you have to verbalize your wants to her and you must make a concerted effort to begin the game of love with her.

Maybe you can be the one to kiss her ear while she's making dinner. If the favor is not returned right away maybe try another loving moment by grabing her around the waist when a favorite song comes on the radio and dance! Even if she's holding Grace! Dance! Laugh!

In other words "use her" to get what you need and soon the favor may be returned.

When people are married as long as us ole buzzards we sometimes need a "facelift" to make things exciting again. I know after almost 30 years my H and I act worse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> than our newly married son and Daughterinlaw!!

Yes it's true as the WS he has showered me with so much love attention and affection, but he's a guy WS. Maybe women need the BS to act the same as the male WS to get them jump started!

You know women and men are wired different and if FH didn't get what she needed before, she may be wishing she can be desired now!

This time YOU give her the flowers! This time YOU tell her she's YOUR gift from GOD! This time YOU kiss her softly on the neck and tell her you'll see her later in the bedroom.

See pops?

To get it sometimes you must give it first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I know you are a huge softy and FH appreciates it.

OM must be given a pass in your relationship as he actually spends too much time in it, like it or not, he does.

Something must be done about his calling FH at will, keeps him too close in the picture.

To sound repetitive...a third party must take over calls or a definate time must be set for visits with Grace.

It's too disruptive to your private life and you are being far too accomodating.

Has nothing to do with being adults.

He has no further place in FH's life!

It must be you and she and the kids or I suspect you'll get "no satisfaction".

Ok...said my peace..

Would love to send you funds for one session with Harley.

Can maybe set it up with you two and ship the first bill to me.

I'm serious.

We can find a way to pay for the best advice going!

Maybe I can do it via e-mail.

Let me know and we'll talk soon.

blessings,
Debi

Pops,

If you're out 2-3 times a week, eating out with FH no wonder it's a stretch to fork out for a session with the Harleys. But don't stop that. I wish I'd done more of that myself.

Debi,
I'm with you, I'll go halves with you, but I haven't got a clue how to organise that. Is there some way we can get in touch through a secure third party ?

Fo8

ok i am back,,,,,, have to write early as fh is working this morning and once the kids get up things will happen fast around here with soccer and stuff.

gem,,, sorry that you are missing the game. even though i love sports i don't have much time to follow or watch them on tv very often. i usually watch about 3 games into the championship series and of course new years day football.

as far as me taking the inniciative (sp?) with fh that is where the problem comes in. i have done that for years and even continued it for a while after the A. i would give her a big hug, a pinch on the tush or steal a squeeze of a chi-chi. used to even get a hold of her and try to dance around the living room or bedroom. how about trapping her in the closet for a quick kissing session. most are met with don't, the kids will catch us or just her kind of pulling away with a embarased giggle. my expresing and showing my affection has never been a problem. i just need to feel her reciprocate the feelings on a regular basis.

you know i would even try sneak in a quick 2 step with her in a store or the mall. always was embarassing to her. and now even when i pick up one of the small girls for the samething they act embarassed. ok maybe in public she is to shy.

the part about you and h acting worse then your s & his w. that's exactly what i am talking about. i want to have her show me that passion. make me believe that even though she slipped she realizes again how fortunate she is to have me in her life.

i have always told my kids and the hunderds of kids i have coached in youth sports 2 things. 1 - believe in yourself and 2 - whatever you do academic or athletic do it with PASSION. if you strive with zeal and never doubt yourself, win or lose you will enjoy your endeavor.

-----------------------------------------------
My guess is you were knee deep into kids and she was too tired to hear you.....
-------------------------------------------------

very true. the problem is we are still knee deep in kids so are we going to be to tired for our whole lives. if so what was the purpose of our marriage. Biblical reproduction. if WE can express our love to each other then we can conqueer (sp?) mountains together. but if it feels one sided we can't step over the curb.

catnip,,, i never write things here that i wish fh not to read. that is why i never signed onto the private site. i don't want her to feel like i am hiding anything.

the counselors we went to both said that i wear my heart on my sleeve. i feel now that i have in some respects taken it and put it into my pocket.

i think that fh is suffering from some mild depression. i felt this for some time prior to the A. both her sisters felt the same thing. to me it was that she had gotten into a motherly rut to where she felt worthless. i have always told her how lucky i was to have her and tried to show her how much she meant to me. maybe i didn't do it the right way for her but i was doing the best that an uneducated nail pounder could do.

what do i feel is the problem now. bottom line is she feels so overwhelmed with our daily ruetine up at 4:30 every morning off to babysitters and work by 5:30, home with grace about 5pm, getting diner and homework done, soccer practices, cleaning up the house and kids to bedby 8:30 - 9. except grace who seems to get a burst of energy about 9. we end up falling asleep about 10 - 10:30. then start again at 4:30. i have suggested that she look for something with more normal hours, but she doen't have the self confidence to look.

she is overwhelmed with the house being unorganized. we have accumulated nearly 30 years of stuff from 8 kids. i say lets just rent a backhoe and a dumpster, throw everything out so we can breathe again and start anew. and financially we are tight right now but starting to get our head above water again.

i think she is definately feeling down because she is focusing on the wrong things. she is counting her woes instead of her blessings. i am not her #1 priority. she needs to look at what she has. she has a h that still loves her after our lives were turned upside down, i have acepted grace and love her very much, our children are not living out of 2 homes, even the om is kind and good to grace.

i think that you are also right about her stuggling with her own worthiness. i can tell her that she means the worlg to me (and i have) but if she doesn't find herself there is nothing i can do.

gem and fo8,,,,, thank you so much for your most generous offer. i will talk it over with fh and we will consider it. my personal feeling is that altough we are in need of some counseling together i would rather see her get some help to deal with whatever it is that has her so down.

well sorry for this being so long. have to go now as grace and angel (8 yr old) just woke up so i gotta run, literally. pops

FO8,
I can call the counsel center and give my credit card # for pops and fh....If they accept ,I will put it on my credit card and maybe you can put 1/2 on the next session... ok pops and fh?

FH I hope you read this.

You have been given a man most here would dive for!

Perhaps if you play some old Classic rock and remember the 70's and how you felt about pops you can rekindle those feelings, like in Forrest Gump...Ficticious but real in the sense he felt all those things we as humans beings need!

Life IS like a box of chocolates, you get what you don't like sometimes (plain vanilla creme versus delicious maple or chocolate cream.)

FH open your heart before it is too late! Men like pops don't come around too often and because of their very soft nature are often taken for granted.

I wish you two could have countless hours alone together like H and I have...after all WE are 50!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We no longer have babies at our feet and we relish our alone time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FH, find an extra hour this week. Talk to pops. Kiss and get the party started together!

Ok, so mix it up into thirds if you need to.

But DO NOT FOREGO HIS ADVANCES!

You didn't forego om's did you?

Pops wants your love in the most pure way. (ok nasty way lol)

It takes two and you must be aware that some other woman will find him attractive and begin to meet his unmet EN's!

Then what FH?

You will be left to not only raise the kids but do it without pops help!

If it's an antidepressant you need, get it!

Please accept the counseling offer. I think you'll need a few sessions.

Prayers and friendship to you and pops... talk soon

love
Debi

<small>[ October 11, 2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Debi,

Fine by me. I'll call the counselling centre as well and give my CC number.

Pops and fh please go for this. My offer has to expire at Xmas, just because I don't know if I'll be up to my neck in lawyers bills next year ( or sooner ).

My sit. is hopeless and I can already see the beginnings of many battles and a lot more pain... a bit like having a bomb go off in the midst of your family. There may be pieces flying in all directions away from each other. Pieces that feel they don’t fit, pieces that are chronically hurt... and on and on...

If you can talk and you obviously love each other enough for it to grow it will be WAY better for you to build up your marriage.

Being happily married is heaven on earth ! ( I’m sure you’ve been there ).

Just do it !

Fo8

Just for the record, arrangements have been made with Counselling Centre by email.

Go Pops and Fh! ...talk about pressure... :-)

I called too, Father of 8. Things are ready to go!
pops and fullhouse have to call to schedule an appt now.

Gotts run, work calls!

love
Debi

Pops and FH,

This is to both of you, because I seem stuck in the same rut, so to speak! I believe that for myself, my problem is internal. What I mean by that is the physical affection part of what most men have in the top 3 for their EN's! I honestly don't crave it, yet love Sailorman with all my heart! Unfortunately, our doc is highly recommended, and doesn't have any appointments soon for this, so we have to wait, but it was suggested to me by other's to check out my hormone levels!

I'm thinking, of course w/out yours or FH's input, that the combination of all the kiddos, and possibly something out of whack for FH, this may be causing some of a strain. I know that with just my 3 I get exhausted all the time, and I don't have any other job!!!! It's also very hard, at least for me, to accept my own "forgiveness" for what I have done! I still struggle with it at times, and I have almost a full year on you guys!!!!

I say to look into the counseling with the Harley's! Gem and Fo8 have so graciously helped you out, take advantage of it! Another thing, FH, if you'd like to email me, or whatever, my email is **********. Sometimes it's easier to talk about such private things in a more private setting, know what I mean? If you don't I understand that as well.

And, last but not least, I think that both Pops and FH would benefit from being on the private board, as they do both "qualify"

Ok, that may be a little more than just $.02, but I hope that I was helpful!

Love,

Tigger

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: tigger4jdt ]</small>

thanks tigger, i have your email written down, if you would like to take it off the screen.