Long story made as short as possible.........
H and I have been married 11 years. We have an "almost" 11yo, 3 yo and 1yo. H had A about 7 yrs. ago, it ended upon pronouncement of OW pregnancy. I found out about 5 1/2-6 yrs ago when H was legally contacted for permission to change OC name. Since all was out in the open H offered any help necessary (to be responsible) OW declined and said did NOT want him involved or anything else from him. We stayed together. 2 yrs. ago I find out I am pregnant w/3rd child and recieve legal papers in the mail in the same week that my H is getting sued for CS from OW plus past due support for previous 2 years. We conclude she now "wants" H involved w/ OC. Start paying the $$ and introduce OC into our lives. OC was 4 1/2 yo at that time. Mother is extremely difficult and resisant but insists she wants OC to have father (OW has another child 2 years younger with NO dad). Have now had OC in life for almost 1 1/2 yr. Fighting whole time w/ OW over custody/visitation issues. She says OC is now emotionally damaged because of us being in her life. (ie;separation issues-feelings of abandonement by mother??? may or may not be true??? "acts" normal in our home) We finally came to a custody/visitation agreement that is to be filed at hearing in 1 week. OC now almost 6yo, in Kindergarten. THIS WEEK OW suggests & says she wants my H to waive his rights to OC, relieving him of any resposibility or rights to OC. Technically, he would no longer be her father, in any way. ???????

We are blown away by this and don't know what we should do. It has been a very hurtful past year and a half, to say the least. But would this make things worse for all of us? If OW would have suggested this originally or even 1 yr ago we would have jumped @ the chance......but now...when we are seeing OC regularly and our children already know all about their sister? Not that it makes it any easier seeing her regularly, but......which is worse? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Where's my "future telling crystal ball" when I need it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Has any one gone through it like this?

OWs can be sooo manipulative huh?

My situation isn't exactly like yours, but I'm sure you're just as frustrated as I am. Why is OW playing these games? Doesn't she care about her child's emotional well-being? Is it possible for you guys to adopt her? If you could, would you? Sometimes we, as BS would rather opt for NC not beause we dont want to have contact with OC, but just to have some stability one way or the other. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.

Why does the OW now want you H to sign his rights away? Now that the child is in your lives, me thinks you should fight for your rights or actually your H should fight for his right to be in her life as if she were any other child of his. Would he jump at the chance to waive his rights to his other children?

If the child is having issues, counseling can be done to help that. Perhaps all three of you should get together and get everything out in the open. Get to the heart of the issues and work together to come up with solutions that work for everyone. Children need adults to set the example for them. Do you still feel threatened by the OW? Does she still want your H? If she is the only one that seems to have the problem, find out what exactly she needs to happen in order for everyone to benefit. Find out what her issue is and address it. I know many a BW would be fine with never having to deal with the OC and OW ever again and that's fine if that's their choice AND their H's choice, personally I don't agree but will NOT judge those that go down that road. Sorry but I guess I'm just too biased on that subject.

My point is instead of wondering and assuming what is going on with the OW, go straight to the source and get it out in the open. There are kids involved now and they need you all to be there for them consistantly and keep them out of your problems ( your meaning adult). I hope I don't sound harsh but please, for the kids sake, do your best to work it out!

Just out of curiousity, what are your feelings toward the OC? Love, like, indifferent?

1. This is not unusual behavior. She has manipulated your family and more importantly all the children. Classic example of why things should be handles upfront, legally.

2. Hope you have a good laywer. It makes no difference if she wants you to see that child or not. She can't call the shots. If your family chooses to see this child, your laywer will see to it that you do. She can't manipulate any longer. Do not allow her to anymore. Don't buy her excuse to sign off parental rights. She is a fruitcake. If your husband signs off his parental rights, he would still have to pay child support. She just wants the money. The fact that his family is included is probably driving her nuts.

3) Do not in any way shape or form go and discuss anything with her. You have a laywer to arrange visitaiton with the child. This is a classic example of why it would be best to have a 3rd party be involved to handle the hand off of the child. Do not meet with her. She is has already proven, over the years how manipulative she is. Her problems are hers to deal with. Especially when you say the child seems fine with you. OW is not part of your family, and her dramas are hers alone. Don't let her into your family. Talk to your laywer.

5) OW is obviously threatened of you the BW and your stable loving family that she is not part of. You don't need to meet, dicuss, or anything with this woman.


As for continued contact, that is entirely up to you and your husband at this point.

This whole scenario is an example of what happens with handshake deals, and lets meet to discuss this or discuss that. One minute OW says this, then says that. Your family has gone through how many uphevals now? End the drama and get it handled in a legal fashion. Whatever way you see fit. Contact or not, this needs to be taken care of for everyones well being and future.

Hope this is an eye opener to all of you who chose not to get a laywer and try to do it yourselves. Simply the worst thing you can do is go and meet with and work this out with the OW.

I appreciate the responses and the more time I spend on this site and forums, the more insight I gain.

Naturally, my H and I's first loyalty is to OUR family, marriage and children. This is not a normal relationship to have/be in and it was not meant to be to begin with. We did (all) go to counseling which is what enabled us all to come to the aggreement we were planning on filing next week. That is why we are so perplexed now.

From my experience this past year, I think the OW was not being fully honest with herself or us about what she wanted and only wanted to "look good" by acting like she really wanted OC to have a father. I think she really only wanted the financial support UNLESS it included my H for her self, not just for OC. OW "innocently" requested many times for my H to visit with OC alone and "innocently" questioned why we have to "drag" our kids with us to visit. Was upset that the "visits" did not include her (OW), only OC. She told us (months later) that she initially, wanted us to have "supervised visits" with OC, with OW supervising.

She says now that she would rather have %100 control again over OC life, (they have joint legal and physical custody)and that she is "tired" of it all and that all her "hopes, dreams and goals" for her daughters are "now gone, not real". I don't know what those were that having a father makes them unnattainable. That now she can't teach one child something she believes is true because the other parent (us) believes it's not true, so how can she teach it to her other child. (referring to religion, she wants OC in Catholic school, we are protestant and she does not believe in either so that is also perplexing)Says this OC is an "emotional wreck" whereas her other fatherless child is fine. (probably true) She wants her "emotionally healthy" child back.

OW suddenly cares about my marriage, that if they (OW & OC) are source of stress in our marriage then she "wants out". I find this "concern" repulsive.....trying to get past the fact of her willingness into the relationship in first place....(claims complete innocence and NO responsibility). Never cared before this week!?!

My feelings?.... Trying to balance my feelings for OC and responsibility to my own children's well-being and welfare. NOT an easy task. (Do I risk the welfare of MY children for the OC feelings or risk the welfare of OC for my childrens feelings?)

As much as I believe children need both parents.....I cannot say that this is the best way to provide it...going back and forth every few days or whatever, that's not fair to parent or child.

We were ready to give up completely because we were so tired of fighting with her over it then she stopped fighting and agreed to the current schedule. We only have to see OW about once a month when she picks up OC from an after school visit. All other visits are overnight from/to school.

I will support my H either way and trust that the decision he makes is the best. That is really what it comes down to, that it is HIS decision but I know he values and respects my opinion.

Do have lawyers, counselor did most of the work though in helping us arrive in agreement. Lawyer seemed more like a waste to me. Maybe just not a very good one. Have contacted lawyer about current turn of events, no reply yet.

Are you sure we would still have to pay CS? We are still suspicious either way.

BUT...every post I have read by you, LynnG., has been absolutely right on! You are absolutely correct.

Yes, I think we have had way too much contact w/ OW but felt it was necessary for OC's well being, necessary exchanges of info for/about OC, ect.

I accepted the fact OC was going to be in our lives and I can accept it if she isn't.

Your famlily SHOULD come first. And this drama is not good for them at all. As for your OW?


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If she isn't the poster girl for half of these (I say half, not all) women. She could care less if her child had a father or not. She wanted to see if the could wedge herself into your family and push you and your children out. Oh she wanted a daddy alright, she just didn't want his family "dragged" into her life. She is upset that SHE wasn't invited or included in the visits? This one is a moron. She could care less what her destructive behavior does to anyones children.

Personally, and I know this is going to be hard, but I would slowly cease contact. Sounds like you think her other child is fine. This one was until her mother tried to use her for husband-bait. Maybe this is another case where no contact would be in everyones best interest. Sounds like the drama is more then all of you can take.

Good grief,your children don't need this crap in their lives. What will her drama be next year? And the year after that? Think carefully here. Your family is getting jerked around by that idiot. Her own child would be better off also. Lord, what a horrible woman. Stop the madness. Stop contact. Stop it all. Let everyone have thier peace.

ktbunch

I guess the thing that bugs me is that you and your husband have already forged a relationship with this little girl and it sounds like you have developed feeligns for her and probably she has for you too. What kind of a mother would suddenly tear her child away from two people who have opened their homes and their lives to her and deliberately hurt her own child like this? Lynn's absolutely right...this gal is a fruitcake and a selfish one at that. It's bad enough she never considered you (except to mouth phoney platitudes about her concern for your marrige) but that she is disrupting and hurting her own child is the lowest.

If you and your husband are already hooked into this kid and more importantly, if this kid has come to love you, your family and wants to be a part of it, gt a different attorney and make sure you and this little girl don't get jerked around.

This is pretty sad stuff. Cruel in fact. I really feel for you and this child.

Good luck

Catnip =^^=

How old is this child? It probably iIS true that the other fatherless child is ok. Can't exactly miss what they never had. My sons father (xMM) has not been in his life since he was 1 1/2 years old and in hindsight, this arrangement IS better for my son for various reasons. XMM and his then wife divorced long ago but now he is remarried to his oOW and he still has not made any real attempts to be a father to his son. Which after all this time is for the best really.

But with your H's OC having been in your lives for this long and now OW wants to pull her out?? Yes it is wrong for OW to do that. It seems to me that your H has no real emotional bond to this child and if you all feel it would be better to do NC from this point on, then maybe it would be best. A father that willing to walk away after being there for this long, should just stay gone because he will be doing more harm to the child than if he were never there. The OW should be happy that he is paying support and trying to be a presence in the child's life although I do have to question the infrequency of visits. Once a month is hardly enough for either side to develop a bond. Was that you and H's decision for him to only see his child once a month? Perhaps I didn't read the description of visits well enough. If I'm wrong I apologize. If I'm not, once a month is not good at all IMO. If this is all you are willing to give the child, you may be doing her a bigger favor by bowing out now.

I so understand you wanting to put your mariage and family first but it just seems to me that if people can't accept OC whole heartedly then they should not even bother making the attempt. Granted you should have never been put in this situation to begin with but it's too late for should have's isn't it? Regardless, it's your H's child. Sorry but I've already said too much. More than this thread can handle to hear I'd bet. It all sounds so selfish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DIAMOND GIRL:
<strong> It seems to me that your H has no real emotional bond to this child and if you all feel it would be better to do NC from this point on, then maybe it would be best. A father that willing to walk away after being there for this long, should just stay gone because he will be doing more harm to the child than if he were never there.

=^^= Diamond Girl...I didn't translate ktbunch's post that her husband had no real emotional bond to this child at all. I am rather impressed they have both worked so hard to maintain a relationship with this child despite the XOW's disruptive personality.

The OW should be happy that he is paying support and trying to be a presence in the child's life although I do have to question the infrequency of visits. Once a month is hardly enough for either side to develop a bond.

=^^= ktbunch stated that they only have to see the XOW once a month because the other times they pick up and drop off OC at school. It sounds like OC spends nights and weekends with them quite often.

I so understand you wanting to put your mariage and family first but it just seems to me that if people can't accept OC whole heartedly then they should not even bother making the attempt.

=^^= So many here have attempted contact and an on-going relationship with the OC with dismal results simply because the XOW has a problem with contact. "Most" of the time, it is the XOW who is not comfortable with contact and after a while contact ends. It's a terrible thing to do to a child. I don't think ktbunch and here husband are the bad guys here...they have contact and want ot continue contact and it sounds as if the XOW has been putting them through a lot of unnecessary grief vascillating between wanting involvemtn then changing her mind and making things difficult.

Granted you should have never been put in this situation to begin with but it's too late for should have's isn't it? Regardless, it's your H's child.

=^^= I think ktbunch is well aware of all this and I give her a lot of credit for trying to incorporate this child into their lives.

Sorry but I've already said too much. More than this thread can handle to hear I'd bet. It all sounds so selfish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

=^^= I agree with you completely...you are right; the selfishness of the XOW is appalling and disgraceful.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

To answer about "visitation":

We are now on a 3 week schedule to accomodate my H work schedule. On paper it will be (officially next week after filing) 4nights/5 days for weekends (pick up/drop off @ school) then midweek 3nights/3days (p/u-drop off/school) then one after-school visit then resumes to weekend again. Then all major holidays are alternating. In "real-life" it is one stay over shorter to help OC "adjust" to schedule. Before this it was only every other weekend from 6pm Friday to 4pm Sunday with 2 hours on the alternate Friday with only Christmas day. That was it.

We had been trying for more time this entire past year including holidays. We may have been pushing too fast but we did not know how to go about this.....it's not like we've ever done this before and at the same time we wanted to be a real prescense in her life. We are used to having our kids with us all the time so we wanted to have her as much as possible. OW preferred OC to be in day care than with Father. Many lame excuses were given over past year about why we couldn't/shouldn't spend more time with her. Plus many unneccessary scheduling conflicts that she would not budge on. (like our older son having school activities that conflicted with 2 hour visit but OW would not exchange the time for any other day/evening)

We wanted a schedule that would give us more time w/ OC and as little as possible contact with OW. Our goal was to get OW out of the equation as much as possible, thinking we then would be able to focus soley on OC and not have to deal with memories/reminders/risks of OW in our life. Although OW denies it, she has gone out of her way to hurt our children and we have gone above and beyond to HELP OC. I know now this was just CRAZY and NO ONE should ever do that, put some one else above their own family or children! I regret that but have learned a lot along the way and will never do that again which is why I even posted this question. If that is considered selfish then I am and I would advise any mother to do the same.

It's not like we could/would walk away with out another thought of OC BUT it's not fair to sacrifice our other children and the stability of their family either. Which is more selfish?

We finally heard from lawyer, said courts/judge would not allow "sign off" of father either way because not in best interest of child, unless OW was getting married and OC being adopted. And never if public assistance is involved (which we knew and told OW but she persisted any way)

We will stay involved as long as possible. The OW is just a total idiot. (which I knew from the beginning) She says that she sees me putting in more effort than my H, and she wants it to be his choice and if he doesn't want to be involved she does not want to pressure him. How nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What she doesn't see is the fact that he wants NOTHING to do w/ OW so he doesn't even want to talk to her, so I do most of the communicating for OC's sake.

I think she is looking for some declaration of love or something from him about OC....so what...he's not going to give it to OW. He's not going to discuss his feelings w/ her. He loves me and our children and "feels" obligated to OC. I see nothing wrong with that and am confident that this will grow into genuine affection. We all feel the same way, love grows, you can't just force it.

I know the real problem is with OW but you cannot have OC with out OW so if it came down to it that having OC in our life was more of a liablility because of OW then that's how it would be. I know that sounds harsh and some would say selfish but I've been neglecting my "mama bear instincts" this past year and now I won't.

I will say again how much I appreciate all of you sharing your opinions and not being afraid to say and do what you think is right. I have really gained so much from this forum and have been blessed. I also know how blessed I am to even be in the situation I am in, many MEN and women are not so lucky to even have a marriage left and are not able to move past these "trials" (forgive my lack of a better/stronger word).

PS: we agree that once a month would have been lame and we felt the same way about every other weekend, which is why we kept wanting more, to make it more realistic. We were trying to consider ALL the children involved here when making these decisions not just OC.

Our "almost" 11 yo understands the most (as much as he can) and the 3 yo is becoming attached and is sad/upset when OC leaves. I am not looking forward to having to explain this again, and again as our other children get older and "understand" more and can ask questions. There is just so much to consider here in this kind of situtation that I think some of the posters here just can't appreciate.

My future advice to any one else in this situation is to pay whatever you have to pay (for a lawyer or CS) and don't ever get involved! Don't wait until it's too late to realize it, like me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But all that aside now, we can make the best of it and value each day we have. My H and I know how lucky we are to still have each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kt:
No matter is this oc is from an affair or whatever, your husband and his family have the right to see and be with her. She has to understand that your husband is involving you and his family. I am the ow and I already know if my xmm chooses to see his child I would WANT his kids and wife to be apart of it. It's his family. The alternative would be for him to sneak around to see this child? I don't think so. I would never want my child put in that position. If the husband stays with the wife, then she most defentently is involved too as it should be. She can't refuse that unless you are a drug user, child abuser, etc. Your kids are the daughters half siblings. She is not putting her daughters interest first by this flip flop thing. Yes your husband has every right to be involved. It sounds like your taking a 50 -50 time limit if I read right. So he is really involved. She can't take that away no matter what. I guess she should of taken care of this ahead of time and stuck with what she thought she wanted. I'd say it's to late for her to take back now. This women has no idea how lucky she is that your husband wants to be a part of the Daughter's life and that you and your kids are as giving as you are. She should be thanking God.

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

You would think she would be happy but her impression is: that she is going out of her way for us, she is doing us favors.

Everything she has done, she does not consider it to be for OC, she treats it as if she is doing us a favor. It's just so strange.

To be fair, OW's probably an ok person and I know she really loves her daughters----unfortuneately, she is just a total idiot. She fought against everything we were asking for--I'm not exaggerating--everything---after 3 mediations and 2 different couselors, that all told her the same things (that what we were asking for was NOT unreasonable and IN the best interests of OC), they all told her the same things we were telling her, that OC was/is fine, adjusting/reacting like any child would in this messy situation, the real problem was between us (adults) and that we need to get along.

Finally she agrees to what we are asking and then bam! this new one. She's just an idiot.

And think about it...all these years--on her side--she has been able to paint my H as this terrible monster that just "abandoned her and OC", then here he is....how can someone who did the right thing by staying MARRIED to his W and WANTS to actually spend time w/ OC still be a monster? That had to be hard for OW's entire family to face...that their angelic daughter/sister may have contributed to this messy situation!?...That there were/are other children involved that she played a part in hurting. But I'm sure they don't even think of my kids because it is "not their concern".

That's ok. It took me awhile to get over worrying/caring what "they" think. Just like OW cares what I think of her and wants to make sure I know the "truth"! I realize it just doesn't matter. I don't care what they think of me & my family any more and I don't need to debate over her crazy lies with her. (she really does tell crazy lies over stupid stuff, situations that I am there to witness and then OW tries to tell me things were said or things happened that totally did not because I was standing right there!)

This latest upset just teaches me that my H was right--we just have to stay focused on OC and ignore OW as much as we can. NC that has to concern OW, only basic necessary communication for OC sake, which does not require much.

It will work out and it's hard for me to realize my limited influence here (I know I have a tendency to be a bit control freaky). OC may have emotional problems now or maybe later but that is just a fact of the situation. My children will always have their dad there for them and live with him while OC only gets to "visit". That is just a hard fact of life.

It is painful to realize how many people are affected and hurt by our own selfish decisions. But with the pain comes some great growth and lessons. Hard to swallow but endurable none the less. We pray that the least of these lessons will be sincerely learned by our own children and that they will NOT create such misery themselves. It is sad that they had to grow up so fast to see something like this happen to/in their lives.

And I hate to sound like a cliche' but this situation has brought out a much greater appreciation in my H and I for each other and our family. We try not to waste any time over petty things like we did those many years ago. We know what is important and what really matters and if one of us happens to forget, the other is quick to lovingly remind.

kt,,,,,, my reaction to your 1st post is for you and h to take control of this.

ow wants her child to have his/her father yet hates seeing you and your h and oc together.

you and h have to decide what you want in this case and then persue it LEGALLY. i can not stress doing this LEGALLY enough.

once things are documented then you and h have to take the high road and basically ignore all ow's rampages.

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

You state that she has hurt your own children? THAT SHOULD BE THE END RIGHT THERE.
No contact. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. End all contact or your own children will pay the price, just cause you want to do the "right thing" by the OC. You don't want anyone to hurt, but yours already are. END CONTACT. Sorry it is harsh, but it sounds like the only way for you all to find some measure of peace.

OW seem to feel that the OC and his/her needs need to come no matter what the cost. WRONG. You have a responsiblity to your children. Contact with oc is confusing and strange, and will end up as an embarrassment in the future when your children have to explain this part time person to their own friends.

END CONTACT WITH THIS SITUATION IMMEDIATELY.

I would end all contact.

We were at the point before of ending it completely, but then OW calmed down and agreed to everything...before last week. I think she will still agree when we go to the hearing on Thursday, her lawyer has already told her that what we were asking for was NOT unreasonable....so...unless she decides to surprise us with something, which I doubt but is always possible.

LynnG, I know, I know, I know, you are right. Our oldest (b almost 11 yo) has had to face friends and been unable to explain the situation. I know he has been uncomfortable. They ask him, who's that and he just replies, my sister, then they're like what??? all puzzled and he just refers them to me because he says he can't explain it. I believe he went through a depression at first, had symptoms, angry outbursts, moodiness, insomnia, which tore me up but since things have calmed down w/ OW he seems settled, symptoms gone. He's a quiet one, doesn't say much, sometimes just little comments here or there, only says what he thinks we want him to say. We have to remind ourselves not to discuss anything about our feelings or frustrations in front of him or our others. He reflects us so it's hard to know his true feelings.

The 3yo was doing fine then last night when I told him we were going to pick up OC today, he says he is mad at her and doesn't like her....I ask him why , he gives some 3yo answer that she hit him or something and I tell him he has to be nice to his sister and he says OC is NOT his sister, my daughter IS his sister NOT OC. He does not want her in HIS house because he does not like her and this is not her house! A bit out of the blue. When she is here, he is fighting to get her attention the whole time and wants her to play with him every minute.

OC acts fine & normal @ our house. But OW says she comes back very distraught and highly emotional and mood swingy!

Maybe I'm just being the idiot here....like how much more will I put up with? We just thought/think if we get OW out of it then it can all work out, which this new agreement pretty much does. But maybe it never will....maybe there are just too many "what if's"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

We'll see how it goes @ the hearing on Thursday and we have OC for the next 2 nights any way.

Oh my dear, the damage is staring you in the face.


<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Your 11 year old is embarrassed when friends ask (WILL ONLY GET WORSE), depressed, and has shown angry outbursts, moodiness, insomnia and now he only makes comments here and there, and you feel he is only saying what he thinks you want to hear him say? HE IS SUFFERING. He is paying a huge price here. HE IS HURTING ASHAMED AND DEPRESSED. If he is only telling you what he thinks you want to hear, you are losing communication at age 11, honey, communication with teenagers is hard enough without all this on the back of that young one.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Your 3 yar old is mad that she is coming over, doesn't like her and says she has hit him, and then you say he has to be be nice to oc? OUCH... Oh honey, he does not want oc in his house??????

This whole drama is affecting your children deeply. Your younger one does not like her and has told you that. This is to much for them to accept. It is hurting them. I know you love and adore your children. But by tring to accomodate and do "what is right" (by who's standards I might ask), you are sacrificing your own children. Please Please Please listen to your children. They are telling you exactly how they feel. They are embarrassed, ashamed, hurt, don't like oc and don't want her in the house. Your husband says she feels like an obligation.

Now lets look at oc. If your husband feels she is an obligation, your older child is embarrassed of oc, and younger one doesnt even like oc, how do you think OC feels? She probably feels the awkwardness here.

Virtually every child here is suffering, you and your husband are sick of the fight to see an oc that neither are even vested in, it just seems like "the right thing". OW does not want OC involved with your family any more, and OC probably is distraught when she comes home. Think how all these emotions must be confusing.

God it just ticks me off that these men and women are so selfish and cruel to cause this much havoc on so many people. Damm it. The OW think nothing of your children while they are off with them, but boy, when an OC is created, suddenly the welfare of the child is so damm important. It is incredible in the selfhishness that is OW.

I swear, your messages are screaming at me. No contact is the only way for everyone to take their hurt, lick their wounds and move on. You are all trying to force a situation that so far has caused misery to 100% of everyone involved. It is not going to get any easier.

Your 11 year old will be a teen in a few years, and the ramifications of all of this will be clearly understandable. The rage and anger will come boiling to the top along with all the hormones of a teenager. Your 3 year old has said OC hit her, and you said that she had to be nice to OC? WHY? Is it ok for OC to hit her? Of course not, you are trying to find an area to please everyone. It is impossible. Does your 3 year old have to be nice everytime oc hits her? I know that is not what you mean at all. But what decision do you have here? Rock and a hard place, with both sides getting hurt.

I am literally wanting to crawl through this computer and beg you on my hands and knees to slow down here. Virtually 100% of you are miserable, all cause it is the "right thing" to do. Your intentions are admirable. Your willingness to try to work this through is respected. But at what cost? These children, all of them are confused, hurting and for what?

STOP THE MADNESS. Let all cool down. Pay the child support. Allow everyone to calm down. Take a breath.

You are a wonderfull woman, who has strength and empathy for others. You are to be admired and respected for your big heart and moral fiber. I wish I could jump through the screen and give you a big hug.

But I am begging you to stop this runaway train while you can.

kt,,,,,,,, i think that there are some cases where nc is a viable course. but not in this situation.

you have started contact and have done so for 1- 1/2 yrs now.

i don't know by any means but it sounds like your 10 yr old has overheard you and h talking about this in some negative ways. i am not trying to blame you and your h but if your 10 yr old has heard things like that it has probably done more damage then anything else. you and your h need to be sure all negative discussions about oc are done so in a place that your c's can't over hear them.

as far as your 3 yr old saying he doesn't want oc around i would bet you a dollar to a donut that it is because he doesn't want to be hurt when the oc goes home.

again i think that you and h's attitude about this is key to how your c's react.

let me ask you this question. what kind of damage will be done to your c's if they see that their father can take in one of his children and then 1 or 2 yrs later he says he doesn't want him around anymore? how secure will they feel knowing that their father could just stop seeing their sister? don't you think that somewhere along the line they will think "am i next"?

sorry i think that nc now will do more damage in the long run.

now as far as the advice given about the 3 yr old not wanting oc in the house so jump to nc right now. who is running your home? you and h or the 3 yr old?

i had 7 children when fh became pregnant thru her A. all were told the truth. the oldest 2 (19 & 26 at the time) were upset. the rest (18, 12,11,9, & 6) just looked at the fact that they were going to have a new baby to love.

i have said it before that they were instamental in teaching me how to love grace.

my family and all our friends know that i had a vascetomy and could not produce any more c's. EVERYONE of them has accepted grace into the family and none of my kids friends have ever questioned where she came from. when asked where she is during her visitations they simply reply with her father. that is the end of it. the other kids don't inquire where she came from or try and belittle or shame my kids in any way.

to see each of my kids run to her and her run to them at soccer games, party's, the community's 4th of july celebration, school events, etc is enough to tell me that kids are not worried about these things.

to tell you the truth i would hate to be someone that tried to make my kids feel bad in any way about grace or her origin. they would most likely ban together and kick some butt.

oh yeah the 2 older ones who were so angry about the whole thing have also come to love her along time ago. in fact my daughter is now her babtsitter. and i don't see any signs of torture or abuse on grace when she comes home everyday.

again i feel that you have been having successful visitations (as far as oc is concerned not ow) with oc for 1-1/2 yrs. stay the course and just ignore ow. my oldest sons (not from an A) mom was a real pain in the a$$. she caused many problems and i even had the sheriff go with me for pick-ups and drop-offs for about a year. i was in and pout af court and the da's office all the time. but it was still worth it in the long run.

find the virtue in the fact you and your h will teach all his kids not only the mean of committment in marriage but also the committment to family. regardless of how you became a family.

please don't jump to the easy road of bitterness here. just because you were to choose nc now doesn't mean that oc is gone forever. there are no garantees with the way your ow changes her mind that she will not pop up in a yr or two. and who knows what the oc will choose when she is old enough to seek out her bio dad. your kids may be faced with some more difficult emotions later wondering why you and h kept their sister from them. they may even come to have resentment for the two of you. who knows for sure?

oh my i must apoligize for being so long winded and i'll climb down off my soap box now.

hoping all works out, pops

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

Pops, the difference I see here is that your wife brought a new born into the house. KT had an OC who was a toddler thrust upon her children. Big Difference. Your situation, where the OC has been there since day one is different. The children's friends do not know that you can't father children. They probably really don't even care or notice.

However, KT has an 11 year old who has been asked, who has shown clear signs of distress over the situation. Why should that child be moody, depressed, lashing out, angry, etc?

You wonder why a 3 year old should run the house? Well, if somebody was violent with my children, they would be removed. Not only that, but allowing contiuned contact with the OC, is saying that no matter what, OC's feelings are more important. That is the whole problem. Children are hurt in these situations.

All of the children in KT's story are hurting. Why not just end the hurt? Why sacrifice the children of the marriage? Their feelings do matter. They should count.

The whole problem with this situation is that the children of this marriage are suffering and their feelings need to be addressed.

I stand by the end contact. When the children ask, it can be explained quite easily. Nobody was thriving on the situation so it was best to move away from it, let everyone feel safe and secure. It is honest afterall. Lets not forget, these kids are to young to figure all of this out, someday they will realize exactly what happend, etc. So you can't really say that the kids are going to feel bad cause daddy stopped seeing his oc. They are going to feel bad for the whole sordid story. The fact that their father cheated on their mother and them. The OC is going to know that her/his mother was an OW. The reality is ugly enough for everyone. Plus it is entirely understandable, once the truth of the situation surrounding the birth, why the no contact. These kids, all of them, will be saddled with this.

So, I stand by the no contact for this family. Their children are suffering and need to come first.

ok, ok, ok....whew..deep breath here.....

The "hitting" thing was coming from a 3 yo out of the blue, I don't think OC hit 3yo, last time we had OC, OC came in tattling that 3 yo hit her! That was why I didn't make a big deal of it when 3yo mentioned it. I didn't even make a big deal of it when OC mentioned it because I think OC uses things like that sometimes to get attention. (like many children)I knew when 3 yo mentioned it that that was not his point, there was something else, that is sometimes hard to get out of a 3 yo. He had started the entire conversation by stating he was mad at daddy......... It had been a week since last "visit" w/ OC so when I told 3yo we were going to pick up OC "tomorrow", his reaction was worth noting since that was his first, immediate response.

And older one doesn't say how HE feels about it, he seems settled now, well, I guess now that I'm thinking about it, he is indifferent to OC, didn't want to sit by her in the car yesterday. Didn't make a loud big deal about it in front of her or anything, but set up her carseat so that he would not be next to her, choosing instead to sit between the younger siblings carseats, so he went a bit out of his way to make sure. When I asked him why he just didn't sit by OC, he just said he didn't want to and I left it at that.

I thought it was just a normal reaction to such shocking revelations and changes in his life. Yes, I regret it now.....but we're HERE now, so I am trying to think/decide/figure out, if it would be best to make changes in the current situation NOW, or if it is really too late.

I don't want my c to grow up to think they are "disposable" BUT I do not want them to think their feelings are not important, they come last, or that this is a normal situation.

The opposite positions you 2 are taking is exactly where I am @----in the middle---back and forth in my mind. I have been discussing this with my H, (more me than him) and he would do whatever I wanted if I really wanted him to but I don't want to be responsible for that decision but he does highly regard my opinions so I can be honest w/ him about how I feel about it. I think his current state of mind is to see what happens on Thursday @ the hearing and we keep hoping (and praying)things will work out for the best in the end.

I am an adult and can handle whatever, but my question to myself, which you have answered differently, is whether I SHOULD be. Do I enforce what I want for my kids OR try to even out the playing field for all the kids involved. That's what I go back and forth on. I look @ 11yo and imagine if that is what the future holds for the 3 and 1yo. Or will they be more ok since they have been involved w/OC at a younger age. I know that none of you can predict the future but some of you have shown that you have experience here and I value that.

I think it is way different, pops, on your end because that OC has been there from the beginning, it is a lot easier to love a newborn baby then it is to love a 4 1/2 yo. That is just the truth.

Maybe I have to stay off this message board before I go crazy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

lynn,,,,,,, i disagree with ending contact at this point in time in kt's case.

i am not one to stuff things in the closet and try and hide them away. i want to meet things head on so i can deal with them now and know where i am at all times. i will say it again that ending contact now in no way garantees there will be nc later on when oc grows up. and you can bet for sure that if they started nc now the ow would be sure to plant the seeds of curiosity in the oc's head.

kt and her h have semmingly worked very hard to get as much visitation as they have. obviously this is not just a "do the right thing" effort. there is a reason they went to all the trouble and put up with ow's tirades. maybe her h is one that just wants to know all his c's.

there 2 boys HAVE a sister like it or not. maybe she wasn't concieved in the most desired fashion but she is still their sister.

as far as the 10 yo and his friends. if his parents teach him to just tell his friends that she is his half sister, they share the same father but she has a different mother i'll again bet you a dollar to your donut that those friends will just drop the questions and accept it.

as afr as my kids and grace are concerned. when we told them that fh was preg. and that i was NOT the father all they cared about was whether it was going to be a boy or girl and whose room was the baby going to share. now that's what kids are worried about. not how did she get here.

now as far as the 3 yo being hit by the 1-1/2 yo. come on tell me you are not making a mountain out of a molehill with this in an attempt to get kt to go nc. don't you think that her 3 yo has hit her 10 yo somewhere along the line because the little one wanted a toy back or something. so what now throw the 10 yo out into the street. hell my kids get into fights on a regular bases. that's part of growing up with bro's/sis's. i know you said your kids are grown but when they were small you didn't ship one off to grandmas house for 18 years because they fought or hit one of their siblings? what happened with that 3 yo and his sis is perfectly normal. grace hit me the other day when we were playing and yelled "no". so what am i supposed to do now send off to om's house before she poisons my kids?

i agree that with you that there are some instances where nc is the best option. but not here. you have given some excellent advice in many cases here especially about getting legal representation. but ypou also seem to think that nc is the only way. tigger4jgtklmsxyz <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (sorry tigger i couldn't remember the last few letters of your screen name) and gemini come to mind. also that famous feline, catnip (who by the way has said that even she would consider it now). which it is not. mary janes is handleing contact along with another poster who is dealing with twins and i must appoligize that i can't recall her name right now. must be the gray matter expanding thru my brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

kt,,,,, you and you h have worked so hard to get as much visitation as you have. i would say don't cave in to ow's crazyness now. i truely believe that you, your h and your kids (all 4) will reap huge benefits if you stay the course you have started and hold fast.

one kind of evil positive side to all this is that you may find some satisfaction in knowing you are driving the ow nuts by being in her life now.

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

kt,,,, sorry the previous post didn't show up untill i posted this one. looks like it was delayed because i posted at the same time you did.

you and your h have gone to great lengths to get the visitation that you have. i can't see throwing in the towel now. try not to blame oc for ow's antics.

you said it yourself that the hitting issue wasn't the big deal that some reacted to. siblings fight and argue. it's part of family life.

yes it is easy to love a newborn. you said that your oc has been around for 1-1/2 years. that means she was 3 when she came into your lives. i have never met a 3 year old that i didn't like. the parents, now that is a different story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

ktbunch,
Ok when you had your kids what were the odds of having a complete strange child come into the mix and suddenly they were expected to greet this kid as if it were normal?

It is not.

All kids on the playground are not accepted either. Hard cruel fact.

Do you want the constant upheaval of that oc's Mom forever?

Do you want to spend attorneys fees just so you can see oc?

The 11 year old will be embarrassed in the future and the 3 year old is jealous. Their MENTAL health should be of concern to you and your H!

I agree with LynnG.

Stop all contact because it can only cause the majority more pain.

Living daily with oc is totally different than visits.

Visits only disrupt what can be a peaceful normal family life.

Look at any divorced friends you have and see what an interruption it is to have weekend visits.

The kids suffer too. Not knowing where they truly belong.

Our son is older but suffered greatly by an oc!

Does not even consider the fact of being related.

It's the cold truth and it happens more often than not in these mixed situations.

Blessing KT.

Choose your family first.

love
Debi

What may be good for one may not be good for another.

We have contact with my H oc and Xow. My oldest daughter,12, admitts she has another brother and is not embaressed about him. She will tell people that her brother is from her dad and has a different mother. The fact that the kids have a brother that doesn't live here hasn't really bothered them.

As for the hitting. At that age its normal. At least with all the toddlers I've seen.

Good luck KT

just for clarification; My C w/ H: "almost" 11yo b, 3yo b, 1 yo g, OC "almost" 6yo g, met OC @ 4 1/2 yo . not that it matters.

We will see what happens @ hearing tomorrow. (Thursday) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well KT, there you have it in a nutshell. Arguments on all sides!! I don't envy you at all.

I will ask you one question. Who is looking out for the best interest of your children? Not the oc, but YOUR children?

Pops makes a point when he says they have a 1/2 sister. I tend to disagree. When a child is conceived in the back seat of a car, or a seedy motel room, lots of people get hurt. One of the many innocent victims of this, is the oc. What makes the OC and their interests more important then the needs of the children of the marriage?

I disagree with contact cause I see it as disruptive to everyone involved.

I cannot stress enough how much I agree with EVERY word that Lynn has posted.

I am totally against contact, especially if the marriage is going to be repaired, especially if the marriage has existing children. There is no possible way to ever explain away how my husband's OC is only 8 months younger than my now 18 year old son. And that is the first thing that my then 16 year old son said when he found out about this OC after my husband and the OW picked up on their 15 year old past affair 2 years ago and we found out about the OC.......He asked "Mom, how in the world can Daddy expect us to look the other way and act like this entire situation is not wrong? How can I explain to my friends that a "sister" has suddenly appeared, they will know that Daddy went out on you while you were pregnant with me. How can they not judge me for my father's sins and treat me differently or just quit being my friend because they think we are trash?" Etc, Etc, Etc. I saw right then that ENOUGH shame and damage had already been inflicted on this child, a child who used to look up to this father who was capable of keeping this secret OC that he himself had never seen or acknowledged for 15 years and now suddenly wanted to thrust into our lives. I put the question to my husband right then that our 16 year old son put to me to ask him......."where is your loyalty?, haven't you been with us as a family for these past 17 years, where does SHE fit in now?" We had a dozen family meetings, words, tears, door slammings, for weeks over this and my husband finally got out of the fog and saw how much pain he had inflicted and that we couldn't endure anymore if we were to repair the damage. I knew I couldn't deal with contact for the sake of this oldest son. My husband was still determined to try something, but when he cut the OW out of the picture, she told him that he would NEVER see OC again. And at 15 1/2 years old, the OC still went along with that and didn't act like she cared if she saw him again or not, so that let him know that all this was more the OW doings to get back into his life than it was for the sake of the OC. But my now 18 year old son will NEVER get past those days and weeks of the turmoil in this house, he will never feel secure in knowing that he can trust his father in our marriage, even if I am truly trying to trust him myself. Our son will not voice this to my husband personally, only to me. And he has also voiced that he hopes to heaven that his 10 year old brother NEVER finds out, never has to realize what his father was capable of, that he lives in a world that is sheltered differently since he is so young and wouldn't understand for years to come. So, a child shall lead them. And I did become the lioness in this house when I knew my children's happiness was at stake and I did make ultimatums. I am not proud of it, I sometimes feel that I had no right to deny my husband contact if he wanted it, but he did have to choose because it wasn't going to damage our sons lives in any way.

So tell me who in the world can say that this OC is a 1/2 sister to our 2 boys? One doesn't want to even acknowledge her existence and the other one will hopefully never have to try. Blood shouldn't mean everything; I know lots of real 100% siblings who were raised together in a decent happy surrounding and after adulthood they grew apart and have no ties to speak of, so why do we all try and force this unnatural situation into our lives? Are we that desperate and needy to make our marriages work that we succumb to the pressures we feel to welcome this OC into our lives for the sake of what our spouses want? Did our spouses think about what we wanted one single minute while they were off in these affairs creating these OC? Did the OW even consider us or our existing children? NO, NO, NO. Maybe by allowing all these "blended" situations to look normal, we, on a whole, are sending messages to this new generation that there are no reasons to have morals and these are the people who are going to grow up to govern this country when we are old and yet another generation is coming into the world.......where will things end up and will they ever stop declining?

I realize I may have crossed the line on this post in some people's minds, but I am so tired of seeing half my 10 year old's classmates families being divorced, sharing a second set of siblings, weekend visitation fights, deadbeat parents, poverty, and all because we as adults haven't got enough will power or morals or whatever you want to blame it on, to keep our vows intact and live our lives like God intended in the first place. And no, I am not a prude, I am not saying that I am perfect by any means, because most days I still have a large thread of me that feels like trash for staying with this man that did this to our marriage, but I am just asking that we all take a good hard look at the world around us and try and make a difference before our children have it much worse. Okay, I am stepping off my soap box.......

Deltamoon

My sister is an OC. Her bio-father wanted nothing to do with her till she was 12. So for 12 yrs her father never told the other kids that they had a sister. Some are older and some younger. She is now 22 and has a wonderful relationship with all of her brothers and sisters. I don't know all the details of what happen with her father, only that he passed away this past summer and her siblings called her immediatly to inform her and have her come to town. They were sad when she left.

Not all kids are bitter. Not all kids hold grudges. I was one who had to explain to others why my father wasn't my sisters father. It was embaressing explaining my mom was a whore, but why should I treat my sister differently?? I also know that just because your blood related doesn't mean crap. I also have an adopted sister. Love just like the 3 sisters I have.

I guess I'm just the type of person who doesn't take the punishment out on the ones who had nothing to do with it. I care for my H oc just like my own. I hate the Xow. I'm not going to make a child pay for the parents mistakes/wrong doings.

kt: it sounds like you and your husband are really trying to do what you think is best. I can tell you right now no matter what state your in, when you go to court the judge is going to do what is best for that child. The ow in your case had NO right to bring you guys in, then treaten to take you out? Is that best for any child? What if your husband would of been married to this women? What would you and him want to do? Say NO affair ever happened but he was married to her? I have twin 5 year olds and oh my gosh they fight. They are in the tatleing stage and it drives me up the wall. Will it ever end? They are both doing it, but telling on each other. I agree with pops it can be done, just get this women under control. She brings your husband and his family into this and you all accept and do what you feel is best to ajust and all, and well I just don't understand her feelings. This girl is not a baby, she understands more now than she would of being a newborn. Good luck to you and I hope it all turns out for the best.

Finished w/court today, OW did not even mention anything about waiving rights or not being involved. I don't even know if she told her lawyer that she had brought it up. Still agreed w/ schedule we wanted.

Everything will stay the same....for now. H says has long range goals of eventually moving away to entire different state anyway....so...we will spend the holidays and then eventually will probably start tapering things off from there. Not so abrupt. Will not warn OW or discuss plans w/her, will just start doing it.

I don't know if that will ever really happen or not. I can only take one day at a time and maybe start to assert myself more and more in "real" life.

I don't consider NC a punishment! I do see it as a consequence of a decision 2 people selfishly chose for themselves without regards to all the other people it would affect who didn't have a choice. Sad but true! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

AND if NC is considered a punishment for the OC then wouldn't contact be a punishment for MY C? And I think C MAY SOMETIMES be in the best interest of OC (and that seems to be the main "pro" arguement) but I don't think it is in the best interests of my children!

I have tried to think/compare the issue to a marriage/divorce situation....BUT it does not even compare, I find it insulting honestly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> If this were a divorce situation then I would have married INTO a step-parenting role, fully aware of that situation, not have it thrust upon me unwillingly as the result of a potentially devastating betrayal. And there would be some history between Xwife and H and I would expect his relationship w/ his children to come 1st, BUT w/ this situation it's nothing even close to that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

There used to be a time when illigitimate children weren't even acknowledged legally, in any way, which is extreme, I know.....but now we have come sooooo far the other direction that illigitimate C are now entitled to MORE than legitimate C. Where's the fairness & logic in that? The only way for FS to protect themselves and their C is to legally separate or divorce altogether and they have to do it FIRST, doesn't matter which children came first! If they don't then the court system has the "option" to consider the financial support that they are morally entitled too! How is that not a punishment for them? No "option" to support OC, legally (forced) "obligated" to! How is that fair? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> So if my children have a 2 parent, intact, home, they are not entitled to afford new shoes, or since there are 2 parents and OW "has to" work, FS can get a job too to make up for loss of income to CS????? Who cares for these children? Who is putting thier needs first? NO ONE, so why should all these FS/ mothers have to care about all these OC so much!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> This is just crazy!!!

Try saying all this out loud and then maybe you can see/hear how crazy this all is! WE made a HUGE mistake to get involved...future advice...don't do it!!! We can't change the fact that we got involved but we can change the fact of staying involved.

WE can't control/change our S decisions to have an A but if it happens and S wants to stay married and OW "just happens" to get pregnant, don't wait until it's too late to realize how horribly painful this can be! Choose NC now!!! FS can choose/control that and WS will agree if they really want to keep their marriage and family. Why should they get both?

And you know what?, I'm NOT going to step off MY soap box today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

ktbunch,
Well said and vent away!

You do have choices and can negotiate with H and well should.

I see how contact is bothering you, how all of tthe court battles are bothering you. You need to be honest with your H about contact!

You vent here any time you wish.

Blessings and prayers.
love,
Debi

kt,,,,,,,,

-------------------------------------------------
And I think C MAY SOMETIMES be in the best interest of OC (and that seems to be the main "pro" arguement)
-------------------------------------------------
just wanted to clarify this from MY viewpoint. when i was recommending c in your situation it had nothing to do with "in the best interest of the oc".

i try very hard to look at each case here on its individual merits.

so my thoughts were not for the oc but instead for ALL the c's involved especially considering their ages. which i was confused on until you clearified them. had i realized their true ages i would have probbly presented a more agessive arguement on the long term effect. but that's just me.

i hope all works out for ALL the c's.

pops

I expect some "long term affects".

At first I did not believe OW when she told us about OC emotional issues w/regards to us being in OC life. I thought it was just a tactic OW was using to get us OUT of OC life, OC was (and still does) acted fine w/ us, no unusually-over-emotional or angry outbursts. And at first, OW did not make it clear to us what was going on w/ OC. OW only "suggestion" was always for us to see OC LESS and OW refused to see that OC was also going through OTHER "new" and life altering changes, always said OC emotional issues were only because of us.

After talking w/ others who know C who's parents are divorced and describing similar behavior.....and OW being more open w/ us (although still only blames us) I think there may be some truth to it. OC still acts fine when w/us but OW describes extreme behavior/patterns upon returning to OW care. (possibly provoked/encouraged by OW) OW says it is worse the longer amounts of time OC is w/us. But there is no extreme behaviors w/ us no matter if OC is w/ us longer or shorter.

I also notice different behaviors w/ my 3yo depending if OC is here w/us for her regular straight long weekend or long midweek, where OC is gone @ school during the day. During weekends 3yo has positive behaviors but during the school week, demonstrates negativity towards OC. The coming and going, although routine for OC, is disruptive to 3yo. (3yo is used to having siblings around all day)

This has also influenced my confusion and leaning, now, towards NC. OC would be able to understand more and express personal feelings better as she gets older, so I think, why all the suffering now? If we start tapering off to NC, and then as she gets older and our C are older, if she wants to resume C, we would never turn OC away. We would then be able to explain the choices made (including the truth about the wrong ones)and that they really were in the best interest of all C involved. She could then process all the info and choose how to react. Same as w/ our C.

I know being the BS, I can have other motives & feelings, which I have been going/fighting against this past year, but I also do care about OC or else I would not even be in this situation in the first place. After looking at (and praying about) the big picture, I feel, in my heart, this is the right thing to do for everyone, unless OC suddenly becomes emotionally stable again it the next few months. (which I don't anticipate happening)

OW was always trying to imply that OC was not dong well because OC did not want to be w/us while OC was asking to spend more time w/us, which is why we pursued more time w/OC. I now think it is really because OC sees/realizes what she does not have (one stable intact home) and this is upsetting to her(OC). Which causes her to be so upset w/out being able to comprehend and express her true feelings. IF she is just in one place (home) she can accept that place for what it is.

I don't know the future and can only make decisions based on the information I have available to me now, so this is it. This is what I see, in our case, in our situation. This is just too much and too overwhelming for any child to have to deal with.

I'm glad it's working out for all of you who made decisions from the beginning, stick w/ them and I'm sure it will continue to work out. I am confident that all the decisions you have made have been the best and right ones for your own families. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KT,
I wish your family the best in your decision of NC, but I would like to point out my experience concerning your statement of the OC wanting contact to be initiated at some point and time later in life. In our case, evidently the older the OC, the worse things can be. At least with a baby or a toddler, some bonds can be formed at an early impressionable age that may help form who the OC turns out to be. With my husband's OC, who entered his life after contact initiated by the OW after 15 some odd YEARS, she proved to be a carbon copy of the OW before it was over. She was manipulative and deceptive and had huge puppet strings that her mother pulled to get my husband to do things that he now sees were nothing of the OC's desires. The OC had found out that my husband was her bio-father when she was 13 1/2. Her mother told her, in a fit of rage, that the deadbeat that the OC THOUGHT was her bio-dad, actually was not her real father, but it was my husband - and no, this deadbeat divorced the OC's mother when the OC was 4 and outside of child support for a child that to this day he thinks is his, he has had NO contact with any of his 3 children and lives in the same small town they do. So you'd think the OC would have been so starved to have a father figure that she would have been driven to meet her bio-dad and yet she knew exactly where to find him, but she made NO attempt to contact him or get her mother to do it either. It was 1 1/2 years later that the OW just happened to decide to call my husband YEARS later and after a "how are you doing these days?" conversation, just dropped the subject in there and let him know that the OC knew about him and did he want to meet her? My husband said it was more a sense of obligation to do the "right thing" that allowed him to start this up behind my back and when 2 months of long distance phone calls a couple of times a week weren't causing him to leave his real family and rush to their sides, the OW had someone else she knew to call me and let me know the WHOLE ugly truth, hoping I would pack and leave him that very night and she could move in for the kill by default. And even after everything was out in the open and my husband made it clear that he wanted to save our marriage and I had agreed to treat the OC like a child from a previous marriage, the OC still supposedly refused to meet me or her 2 half brothers, at least according to the OW. And I was totally prepared to take on the step mother role to this 15 1/2 year old stranger and tell my 16 year old son that he HAD to do the "right thing", too, against every fiber of his being. But then the longer that my husband saw what was going on and that the OW was controlling every shot, the more he realized that this sudden CONTACT issue had never been for the benefit of the OC, or even a desire of the OC, the OW had just used her own daughter as a pawn in a ploy to try and regain a foothold in the life of a man she was involved with 17 years prior. Seems the OW was getting a 2nd divorce and she was not prepared to live life without a man, so after going through months of Internet dating and driving around the countryside to meet guys she e-mailed, nothing was panning out, so she decided to go for the trump card and call my husband and see if she could work on his guilt. The OC never initiated ANY of the contact with my husband, the OW always made the phone call and then called the OC to the phone AFTER chatting with my husband 15-20 minutes long distance. The OC didn't ask a single question of my husband's interests, his life, his work, his hobbies, nothing. She never even asked to see a picture of her brothers or inquire about anything about them. So after 4 months of contact on the phone at least 4 times a week and them coming to our town about 7 different weekends for my husband to visit with THEM while I knew where he was and sat at home waiting for his fog to lift and plan A'ing my heart away.......he finally came out of that fog and realized what a scam it all was and that it wasn't ever going to be a relationship worthy of pursuing, especially when the OC was obviously a clone of her mother and was condoning her mother's actions and aiding and abetting the situation just because it was what her mother wanted, when she could not have cared if she ever met her bio-father or not. And although it hurt my husband at the time, he looks back at it now and says that it hurt his ego more than his heart because he never could find a way to bond with her and after contact was cut off so abrubtly, he said that he really didn't feel a loss for something he'd never had. And I have to admit it hurt me to some extent, too, because I was trying to do the "right thing", I knew that we could provide something to the OC in our lives, I knew that I was doing something that should have been against my grain for the love of my husband and since the OC was of him, I felt some love toward her, even though I never met her. So for those of you who have contact with a sweet innocent baby and can form a loving parent bond, good for you...... Make such a wonderful impression on that little human being so that maybe the nurturing you supply will help save the world from ending up with one more cynical user of a person like our OW/OC scenerio ended up being. And I am not saying that EVERY OC will end up being a horrible person and that those of you who have chosen NC will end up with some nutcase beating down your door when they get old enough to initiate contact, I just wanted to tell my story as a reminder that sometimes even the best of intentions don't turn out to be the "right thing".........and sometimes even if you think the OW is out of the picture (or in my case, I never knew an OW existed to begin with), years later she can decide to spring back to life and show up at your doorstep, OC in tow, so are any of us safe from NC now? Our OC will be 18 the first week in December and I just wonder with every day that comes closer will she bust free of those puppet strings her mother has her on and try to come back into my husband's life when she is of age? None of us should have to look over our shoulders and wonder what is going to happen tomorrow; we shouldn't have been faced with POJA's for contact or no contact in the first place, so there is no right or wrong way to go with this in my eyes, just what seems to be working for each individual situation and the different ways people learn to deal with a more than difficult hand that is dealt them. And I pray daily for all of us in this situation and I pray daily for the effects that it all has had on ALL of the children involved, both of the marriage and the OC's........

Deltamoon