Long story made as short as possible.........
H and I have been married 11 years. We have an "almost" 11yo, 3 yo and 1yo. H had A about 7 yrs. ago, it ended upon pronouncement of OW pregnancy. I found out about 5 1/2-6 yrs ago when H was legally contacted for permission to change OC name. Since all was out in the open H offered any help necessary (to be responsible) OW declined and said did NOT want him involved or anything else from him. We stayed together. 2 yrs. ago I find out I am pregnant w/3rd child and recieve legal papers in the mail in the same week that my H is getting sued for CS from OW plus past due support for previous 2 years. We conclude she now "wants" H involved w/ OC. Start paying the $$ and introduce OC into our lives. OC was 4 1/2 yo at that time. Mother is extremely difficult and resisant but insists she wants OC to have father (OW has another child 2 years younger with NO dad). Have now had OC in life for almost 1 1/2 yr. Fighting whole time w/ OW over custody/visitation issues. She says OC is now emotionally damaged because of us being in her life. (ie;separation issues-feelings of abandonement by mother??? may or may not be true??? "acts" normal in our home) We finally came to a custody/visitation agreement that is to be filed at hearing in 1 week. OC now almost 6yo, in Kindergarten. THIS WEEK OW suggests & says she wants my H to waive his rights to OC, relieving him of any resposibility or rights to OC. Technically, he would no longer be her father, in any way. ???????

We are blown away by this and don't know what we should do. It has been a very hurtful past year and a half, to say the least. But would this make things worse for all of us? If OW would have suggested this originally or even 1 yr ago we would have jumped @ the chance......but now...when we are seeing OC regularly and our children already know all about their sister? Not that it makes it any easier seeing her regularly, but......which is worse? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Where's my "future telling crystal ball" when I need it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Has any one gone through it like this?

OWs can be sooo manipulative huh?

My situation isn't exactly like yours, but I'm sure you're just as frustrated as I am. Why is OW playing these games? Doesn't she care about her child's emotional well-being? Is it possible for you guys to adopt her? If you could, would you? Sometimes we, as BS would rather opt for NC not beause we dont want to have contact with OC, but just to have some stability one way or the other. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.

Why does the OW now want you H to sign his rights away? Now that the child is in your lives, me thinks you should fight for your rights or actually your H should fight for his right to be in her life as if she were any other child of his. Would he jump at the chance to waive his rights to his other children?

If the child is having issues, counseling can be done to help that. Perhaps all three of you should get together and get everything out in the open. Get to the heart of the issues and work together to come up with solutions that work for everyone. Children need adults to set the example for them. Do you still feel threatened by the OW? Does she still want your H? If she is the only one that seems to have the problem, find out what exactly she needs to happen in order for everyone to benefit. Find out what her issue is and address it. I know many a BW would be fine with never having to deal with the OC and OW ever again and that's fine if that's their choice AND their H's choice, personally I don't agree but will NOT judge those that go down that road. Sorry but I guess I'm just too biased on that subject.

My point is instead of wondering and assuming what is going on with the OW, go straight to the source and get it out in the open. There are kids involved now and they need you all to be there for them consistantly and keep them out of your problems ( your meaning adult). I hope I don't sound harsh but please, for the kids sake, do your best to work it out!

Just out of curiousity, what are your feelings toward the OC? Love, like, indifferent?

1. This is not unusual behavior. She has manipulated your family and more importantly all the children. Classic example of why things should be handles upfront, legally.

2. Hope you have a good laywer. It makes no difference if she wants you to see that child or not. She can't call the shots. If your family chooses to see this child, your laywer will see to it that you do. She can't manipulate any longer. Do not allow her to anymore. Don't buy her excuse to sign off parental rights. She is a fruitcake. If your husband signs off his parental rights, he would still have to pay child support. She just wants the money. The fact that his family is included is probably driving her nuts.

3) Do not in any way shape or form go and discuss anything with her. You have a laywer to arrange visitaiton with the child. This is a classic example of why it would be best to have a 3rd party be involved to handle the hand off of the child. Do not meet with her. She is has already proven, over the years how manipulative she is. Her problems are hers to deal with. Especially when you say the child seems fine with you. OW is not part of your family, and her dramas are hers alone. Don't let her into your family. Talk to your laywer.

5) OW is obviously threatened of you the BW and your stable loving family that she is not part of. You don't need to meet, dicuss, or anything with this woman.


As for continued contact, that is entirely up to you and your husband at this point.

This whole scenario is an example of what happens with handshake deals, and lets meet to discuss this or discuss that. One minute OW says this, then says that. Your family has gone through how many uphevals now? End the drama and get it handled in a legal fashion. Whatever way you see fit. Contact or not, this needs to be taken care of for everyones well being and future.

Hope this is an eye opener to all of you who chose not to get a laywer and try to do it yourselves. Simply the worst thing you can do is go and meet with and work this out with the OW.

I appreciate the responses and the more time I spend on this site and forums, the more insight I gain.

Naturally, my H and I's first loyalty is to OUR family, marriage and children. This is not a normal relationship to have/be in and it was not meant to be to begin with. We did (all) go to counseling which is what enabled us all to come to the aggreement we were planning on filing next week. That is why we are so perplexed now.

From my experience this past year, I think the OW was not being fully honest with herself or us about what she wanted and only wanted to "look good" by acting like she really wanted OC to have a father. I think she really only wanted the financial support UNLESS it included my H for her self, not just for OC. OW "innocently" requested many times for my H to visit with OC alone and "innocently" questioned why we have to "drag" our kids with us to visit. Was upset that the "visits" did not include her (OW), only OC. She told us (months later) that she initially, wanted us to have "supervised visits" with OC, with OW supervising.

She says now that she would rather have %100 control again over OC life, (they have joint legal and physical custody)and that she is "tired" of it all and that all her "hopes, dreams and goals" for her daughters are "now gone, not real". I don't know what those were that having a father makes them unnattainable. That now she can't teach one child something she believes is true because the other parent (us) believes it's not true, so how can she teach it to her other child. (referring to religion, she wants OC in Catholic school, we are protestant and she does not believe in either so that is also perplexing)Says this OC is an "emotional wreck" whereas her other fatherless child is fine. (probably true) She wants her "emotionally healthy" child back.

OW suddenly cares about my marriage, that if they (OW & OC) are source of stress in our marriage then she "wants out". I find this "concern" repulsive.....trying to get past the fact of her willingness into the relationship in first place....(claims complete innocence and NO responsibility). Never cared before this week!?!

My feelings?.... Trying to balance my feelings for OC and responsibility to my own children's well-being and welfare. NOT an easy task. (Do I risk the welfare of MY children for the OC feelings or risk the welfare of OC for my childrens feelings?)

As much as I believe children need both parents.....I cannot say that this is the best way to provide it...going back and forth every few days or whatever, that's not fair to parent or child.

We were ready to give up completely because we were so tired of fighting with her over it then she stopped fighting and agreed to the current schedule. We only have to see OW about once a month when she picks up OC from an after school visit. All other visits are overnight from/to school.

I will support my H either way and trust that the decision he makes is the best. That is really what it comes down to, that it is HIS decision but I know he values and respects my opinion.

Do have lawyers, counselor did most of the work though in helping us arrive in agreement. Lawyer seemed more like a waste to me. Maybe just not a very good one. Have contacted lawyer about current turn of events, no reply yet.

Are you sure we would still have to pay CS? We are still suspicious either way.

BUT...every post I have read by you, LynnG., has been absolutely right on! You are absolutely correct.

Yes, I think we have had way too much contact w/ OW but felt it was necessary for OC's well being, necessary exchanges of info for/about OC, ect.

I accepted the fact OC was going to be in our lives and I can accept it if she isn't.

Your famlily SHOULD come first. And this drama is not good for them at all. As for your OW?


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If she isn't the poster girl for half of these (I say half, not all) women. She could care less if her child had a father or not. She wanted to see if the could wedge herself into your family and push you and your children out. Oh she wanted a daddy alright, she just didn't want his family "dragged" into her life. She is upset that SHE wasn't invited or included in the visits? This one is a moron. She could care less what her destructive behavior does to anyones children.

Personally, and I know this is going to be hard, but I would slowly cease contact. Sounds like you think her other child is fine. This one was until her mother tried to use her for husband-bait. Maybe this is another case where no contact would be in everyones best interest. Sounds like the drama is more then all of you can take.

Good grief,your children don't need this crap in their lives. What will her drama be next year? And the year after that? Think carefully here. Your family is getting jerked around by that idiot. Her own child would be better off also. Lord, what a horrible woman. Stop the madness. Stop contact. Stop it all. Let everyone have thier peace.

ktbunch

I guess the thing that bugs me is that you and your husband have already forged a relationship with this little girl and it sounds like you have developed feeligns for her and probably she has for you too. What kind of a mother would suddenly tear her child away from two people who have opened their homes and their lives to her and deliberately hurt her own child like this? Lynn's absolutely right...this gal is a fruitcake and a selfish one at that. It's bad enough she never considered you (except to mouth phoney platitudes about her concern for your marrige) but that she is disrupting and hurting her own child is the lowest.

If you and your husband are already hooked into this kid and more importantly, if this kid has come to love you, your family and wants to be a part of it, gt a different attorney and make sure you and this little girl don't get jerked around.

This is pretty sad stuff. Cruel in fact. I really feel for you and this child.

Good luck

Catnip =^^=

How old is this child? It probably iIS true that the other fatherless child is ok. Can't exactly miss what they never had. My sons father (xMM) has not been in his life since he was 1 1/2 years old and in hindsight, this arrangement IS better for my son for various reasons. XMM and his then wife divorced long ago but now he is remarried to his oOW and he still has not made any real attempts to be a father to his son. Which after all this time is for the best really.

But with your H's OC having been in your lives for this long and now OW wants to pull her out?? Yes it is wrong for OW to do that. It seems to me that your H has no real emotional bond to this child and if you all feel it would be better to do NC from this point on, then maybe it would be best. A father that willing to walk away after being there for this long, should just stay gone because he will be doing more harm to the child than if he were never there. The OW should be happy that he is paying support and trying to be a presence in the child's life although I do have to question the infrequency of visits. Once a month is hardly enough for either side to develop a bond. Was that you and H's decision for him to only see his child once a month? Perhaps I didn't read the description of visits well enough. If I'm wrong I apologize. If I'm not, once a month is not good at all IMO. If this is all you are willing to give the child, you may be doing her a bigger favor by bowing out now.

I so understand you wanting to put your mariage and family first but it just seems to me that if people can't accept OC whole heartedly then they should not even bother making the attempt. Granted you should have never been put in this situation to begin with but it's too late for should have's isn't it? Regardless, it's your H's child. Sorry but I've already said too much. More than this thread can handle to hear I'd bet. It all sounds so selfish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DIAMOND GIRL:
<strong> It seems to me that your H has no real emotional bond to this child and if you all feel it would be better to do NC from this point on, then maybe it would be best. A father that willing to walk away after being there for this long, should just stay gone because he will be doing more harm to the child than if he were never there.

=^^= Diamond Girl...I didn't translate ktbunch's post that her husband had no real emotional bond to this child at all. I am rather impressed they have both worked so hard to maintain a relationship with this child despite the XOW's disruptive personality.

The OW should be happy that he is paying support and trying to be a presence in the child's life although I do have to question the infrequency of visits. Once a month is hardly enough for either side to develop a bond.

=^^= ktbunch stated that they only have to see the XOW once a month because the other times they pick up and drop off OC at school. It sounds like OC spends nights and weekends with them quite often.

I so understand you wanting to put your mariage and family first but it just seems to me that if people can't accept OC whole heartedly then they should not even bother making the attempt.

=^^= So many here have attempted contact and an on-going relationship with the OC with dismal results simply because the XOW has a problem with contact. "Most" of the time, it is the XOW who is not comfortable with contact and after a while contact ends. It's a terrible thing to do to a child. I don't think ktbunch and here husband are the bad guys here...they have contact and want ot continue contact and it sounds as if the XOW has been putting them through a lot of unnecessary grief vascillating between wanting involvemtn then changing her mind and making things difficult.

Granted you should have never been put in this situation to begin with but it's too late for should have's isn't it? Regardless, it's your H's child.

=^^= I think ktbunch is well aware of all this and I give her a lot of credit for trying to incorporate this child into their lives.

Sorry but I've already said too much. More than this thread can handle to hear I'd bet. It all sounds so selfish. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

=^^= I agree with you completely...you are right; the selfishness of the XOW is appalling and disgraceful.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

To answer about "visitation":

We are now on a 3 week schedule to accomodate my H work schedule. On paper it will be (officially next week after filing) 4nights/5 days for weekends (pick up/drop off @ school) then midweek 3nights/3days (p/u-drop off/school) then one after-school visit then resumes to weekend again. Then all major holidays are alternating. In "real-life" it is one stay over shorter to help OC "adjust" to schedule. Before this it was only every other weekend from 6pm Friday to 4pm Sunday with 2 hours on the alternate Friday with only Christmas day. That was it.

We had been trying for more time this entire past year including holidays. We may have been pushing too fast but we did not know how to go about this.....it's not like we've ever done this before and at the same time we wanted to be a real prescense in her life. We are used to having our kids with us all the time so we wanted to have her as much as possible. OW preferred OC to be in day care than with Father. Many lame excuses were given over past year about why we couldn't/shouldn't spend more time with her. Plus many unneccessary scheduling conflicts that she would not budge on. (like our older son having school activities that conflicted with 2 hour visit but OW would not exchange the time for any other day/evening)

We wanted a schedule that would give us more time w/ OC and as little as possible contact with OW. Our goal was to get OW out of the equation as much as possible, thinking we then would be able to focus soley on OC and not have to deal with memories/reminders/risks of OW in our life. Although OW denies it, she has gone out of her way to hurt our children and we have gone above and beyond to HELP OC. I know now this was just CRAZY and NO ONE should ever do that, put some one else above their own family or children! I regret that but have learned a lot along the way and will never do that again which is why I even posted this question. If that is considered selfish then I am and I would advise any mother to do the same.

It's not like we could/would walk away with out another thought of OC BUT it's not fair to sacrifice our other children and the stability of their family either. Which is more selfish?

We finally heard from lawyer, said courts/judge would not allow "sign off" of father either way because not in best interest of child, unless OW was getting married and OC being adopted. And never if public assistance is involved (which we knew and told OW but she persisted any way)

We will stay involved as long as possible. The OW is just a total idiot. (which I knew from the beginning) She says that she sees me putting in more effort than my H, and she wants it to be his choice and if he doesn't want to be involved she does not want to pressure him. How nice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What she doesn't see is the fact that he wants NOTHING to do w/ OW so he doesn't even want to talk to her, so I do most of the communicating for OC's sake.

I think she is looking for some declaration of love or something from him about OC....so what...he's not going to give it to OW. He's not going to discuss his feelings w/ her. He loves me and our children and "feels" obligated to OC. I see nothing wrong with that and am confident that this will grow into genuine affection. We all feel the same way, love grows, you can't just force it.

I know the real problem is with OW but you cannot have OC with out OW so if it came down to it that having OC in our life was more of a liablility because of OW then that's how it would be. I know that sounds harsh and some would say selfish but I've been neglecting my "mama bear instincts" this past year and now I won't.

I will say again how much I appreciate all of you sharing your opinions and not being afraid to say and do what you think is right. I have really gained so much from this forum and have been blessed. I also know how blessed I am to even be in the situation I am in, many MEN and women are not so lucky to even have a marriage left and are not able to move past these "trials" (forgive my lack of a better/stronger word).

PS: we agree that once a month would have been lame and we felt the same way about every other weekend, which is why we kept wanting more, to make it more realistic. We were trying to consider ALL the children involved here when making these decisions not just OC.

Our "almost" 11 yo understands the most (as much as he can) and the 3 yo is becoming attached and is sad/upset when OC leaves. I am not looking forward to having to explain this again, and again as our other children get older and "understand" more and can ask questions. There is just so much to consider here in this kind of situtation that I think some of the posters here just can't appreciate.

My future advice to any one else in this situation is to pay whatever you have to pay (for a lawyer or CS) and don't ever get involved! Don't wait until it's too late to realize it, like me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But all that aside now, we can make the best of it and value each day we have. My H and I know how lucky we are to still have each other. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kt:
No matter is this oc is from an affair or whatever, your husband and his family have the right to see and be with her. She has to understand that your husband is involving you and his family. I am the ow and I already know if my xmm chooses to see his child I would WANT his kids and wife to be apart of it. It's his family. The alternative would be for him to sneak around to see this child? I don't think so. I would never want my child put in that position. If the husband stays with the wife, then she most defentently is involved too as it should be. She can't refuse that unless you are a drug user, child abuser, etc. Your kids are the daughters half siblings. She is not putting her daughters interest first by this flip flop thing. Yes your husband has every right to be involved. It sounds like your taking a 50 -50 time limit if I read right. So he is really involved. She can't take that away no matter what. I guess she should of taken care of this ahead of time and stuck with what she thought she wanted. I'd say it's to late for her to take back now. This women has no idea how lucky she is that your husband wants to be a part of the Daughter's life and that you and your kids are as giving as you are. She should be thanking God.

<small>[ November 08, 2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

You would think she would be happy but her impression is: that she is going out of her way for us, she is doing us favors.

Everything she has done, she does not consider it to be for OC, she treats it as if she is doing us a favor. It's just so strange.

To be fair, OW's probably an ok person and I know she really loves her daughters----unfortuneately, she is just a total idiot. She fought against everything we were asking for--I'm not exaggerating--everything---after 3 mediations and 2 different couselors, that all told her the same things (that what we were asking for was NOT unreasonable and IN the best interests of OC), they all told her the same things we were telling her, that OC was/is fine, adjusting/reacting like any child would in this messy situation, the real problem was between us (adults) and that we need to get along.

Finally she agrees to what we are asking and then bam! this new one. She's just an idiot.

And think about it...all these years--on her side--she has been able to paint my H as this terrible monster that just "abandoned her and OC", then here he is....how can someone who did the right thing by staying MARRIED to his W and WANTS to actually spend time w/ OC still be a monster? That had to be hard for OW's entire family to face...that their angelic daughter/sister may have contributed to this messy situation!?...That there were/are other children involved that she played a part in hurting. But I'm sure they don't even think of my kids because it is "not their concern".

That's ok. It took me awhile to get over worrying/caring what "they" think. Just like OW cares what I think of her and wants to make sure I know the "truth"! I realize it just doesn't matter. I don't care what they think of me & my family any more and I don't need to debate over her crazy lies with her. (she really does tell crazy lies over stupid stuff, situations that I am there to witness and then OW tries to tell me things were said or things happened that totally did not because I was standing right there!)

This latest upset just teaches me that my H was right--we just have to stay focused on OC and ignore OW as much as we can. NC that has to concern OW, only basic necessary communication for OC sake, which does not require much.

It will work out and it's hard for me to realize my limited influence here (I know I have a tendency to be a bit control freaky). OC may have emotional problems now or maybe later but that is just a fact of the situation. My children will always have their dad there for them and live with him while OC only gets to "visit". That is just a hard fact of life.

It is painful to realize how many people are affected and hurt by our own selfish decisions. But with the pain comes some great growth and lessons. Hard to swallow but endurable none the less. We pray that the least of these lessons will be sincerely learned by our own children and that they will NOT create such misery themselves. It is sad that they had to grow up so fast to see something like this happen to/in their lives.

And I hate to sound like a cliche' but this situation has brought out a much greater appreciation in my H and I for each other and our family. We try not to waste any time over petty things like we did those many years ago. We know what is important and what really matters and if one of us happens to forget, the other is quick to lovingly remind.

kt,,,,,, my reaction to your 1st post is for you and h to take control of this.

ow wants her child to have his/her father yet hates seeing you and your h and oc together.

you and h have to decide what you want in this case and then persue it LEGALLY. i can not stress doing this LEGALLY enough.

once things are documented then you and h have to take the high road and basically ignore all ow's rampages.

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

You state that she has hurt your own children? THAT SHOULD BE THE END RIGHT THERE.
No contact. None. Nada. Zip. Zero. End all contact or your own children will pay the price, just cause you want to do the "right thing" by the OC. You don't want anyone to hurt, but yours already are. END CONTACT. Sorry it is harsh, but it sounds like the only way for you all to find some measure of peace.

OW seem to feel that the OC and his/her needs need to come no matter what the cost. WRONG. You have a responsiblity to your children. Contact with oc is confusing and strange, and will end up as an embarrassment in the future when your children have to explain this part time person to their own friends.

END CONTACT WITH THIS SITUATION IMMEDIATELY.

I would end all contact.

We were at the point before of ending it completely, but then OW calmed down and agreed to everything...before last week. I think she will still agree when we go to the hearing on Thursday, her lawyer has already told her that what we were asking for was NOT unreasonable....so...unless she decides to surprise us with something, which I doubt but is always possible.

LynnG, I know, I know, I know, you are right. Our oldest (b almost 11 yo) has had to face friends and been unable to explain the situation. I know he has been uncomfortable. They ask him, who's that and he just replies, my sister, then they're like what??? all puzzled and he just refers them to me because he says he can't explain it. I believe he went through a depression at first, had symptoms, angry outbursts, moodiness, insomnia, which tore me up but since things have calmed down w/ OW he seems settled, symptoms gone. He's a quiet one, doesn't say much, sometimes just little comments here or there, only says what he thinks we want him to say. We have to remind ourselves not to discuss anything about our feelings or frustrations in front of him or our others. He reflects us so it's hard to know his true feelings.

The 3yo was doing fine then last night when I told him we were going to pick up OC today, he says he is mad at her and doesn't like her....I ask him why , he gives some 3yo answer that she hit him or something and I tell him he has to be nice to his sister and he says OC is NOT his sister, my daughter IS his sister NOT OC. He does not want her in HIS house because he does not like her and this is not her house! A bit out of the blue. When she is here, he is fighting to get her attention the whole time and wants her to play with him every minute.

OC acts fine & normal @ our house. But OW says she comes back very distraught and highly emotional and mood swingy!

Maybe I'm just being the idiot here....like how much more will I put up with? We just thought/think if we get OW out of it then it can all work out, which this new agreement pretty much does. But maybe it never will....maybe there are just too many "what if's"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

We'll see how it goes @ the hearing on Thursday and we have OC for the next 2 nights any way.

Oh my dear, the damage is staring you in the face.


<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Your 11 year old is embarrassed when friends ask (WILL ONLY GET WORSE), depressed, and has shown angry outbursts, moodiness, insomnia and now he only makes comments here and there, and you feel he is only saying what he thinks you want to hear him say? HE IS SUFFERING. He is paying a huge price here. HE IS HURTING ASHAMED AND DEPRESSED. If he is only telling you what he thinks you want to hear, you are losing communication at age 11, honey, communication with teenagers is hard enough without all this on the back of that young one.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Your 3 yar old is mad that she is coming over, doesn't like her and says she has hit him, and then you say he has to be be nice to oc? OUCH... Oh honey, he does not want oc in his house??????

This whole drama is affecting your children deeply. Your younger one does not like her and has told you that. This is to much for them to accept. It is hurting them. I know you love and adore your children. But by tring to accomodate and do "what is right" (by who's standards I might ask), you are sacrificing your own children. Please Please Please listen to your children. They are telling you exactly how they feel. They are embarrassed, ashamed, hurt, don't like oc and don't want her in the house. Your husband says she feels like an obligation.

Now lets look at oc. If your husband feels she is an obligation, your older child is embarrassed of oc, and younger one doesnt even like oc, how do you think OC feels? She probably feels the awkwardness here.

Virtually every child here is suffering, you and your husband are sick of the fight to see an oc that neither are even vested in, it just seems like "the right thing". OW does not want OC involved with your family any more, and OC probably is distraught when she comes home. Think how all these emotions must be confusing.

God it just ticks me off that these men and women are so selfish and cruel to cause this much havoc on so many people. Damm it. The OW think nothing of your children while they are off with them, but boy, when an OC is created, suddenly the welfare of the child is so damm important. It is incredible in the selfhishness that is OW.

I swear, your messages are screaming at me. No contact is the only way for everyone to take their hurt, lick their wounds and move on. You are all trying to force a situation that so far has caused misery to 100% of everyone involved. It is not going to get any easier.

Your 11 year old will be a teen in a few years, and the ramifications of all of this will be clearly understandable. The rage and anger will come boiling to the top along with all the hormones of a teenager. Your 3 year old has said OC hit her, and you said that she had to be nice to OC? WHY? Is it ok for OC to hit her? Of course not, you are trying to find an area to please everyone. It is impossible. Does your 3 year old have to be nice everytime oc hits her? I know that is not what you mean at all. But what decision do you have here? Rock and a hard place, with both sides getting hurt.

I am literally wanting to crawl through this computer and beg you on my hands and knees to slow down here. Virtually 100% of you are miserable, all cause it is the "right thing" to do. Your intentions are admirable. Your willingness to try to work this through is respected. But at what cost? These children, all of them are confused, hurting and for what?

STOP THE MADNESS. Let all cool down. Pay the child support. Allow everyone to calm down. Take a breath.

You are a wonderfull woman, who has strength and empathy for others. You are to be admired and respected for your big heart and moral fiber. I wish I could jump through the screen and give you a big hug.

But I am begging you to stop this runaway train while you can.

kt,,,,,,,, i think that there are some cases where nc is a viable course. but not in this situation.

you have started contact and have done so for 1- 1/2 yrs now.

i don't know by any means but it sounds like your 10 yr old has overheard you and h talking about this in some negative ways. i am not trying to blame you and your h but if your 10 yr old has heard things like that it has probably done more damage then anything else. you and your h need to be sure all negative discussions about oc are done so in a place that your c's can't over hear them.

as far as your 3 yr old saying he doesn't want oc around i would bet you a dollar to a donut that it is because he doesn't want to be hurt when the oc goes home.

again i think that you and h's attitude about this is key to how your c's react.

let me ask you this question. what kind of damage will be done to your c's if they see that their father can take in one of his children and then 1 or 2 yrs later he says he doesn't want him around anymore? how secure will they feel knowing that their father could just stop seeing their sister? don't you think that somewhere along the line they will think "am i next"?

sorry i think that nc now will do more damage in the long run.

now as far as the advice given about the 3 yr old not wanting oc in the house so jump to nc right now. who is running your home? you and h or the 3 yr old?

i had 7 children when fh became pregnant thru her A. all were told the truth. the oldest 2 (19 & 26 at the time) were upset. the rest (18, 12,11,9, & 6) just looked at the fact that they were going to have a new baby to love.

i have said it before that they were instamental in teaching me how to love grace.

my family and all our friends know that i had a vascetomy and could not produce any more c's. EVERYONE of them has accepted grace into the family and none of my kids friends have ever questioned where she came from. when asked where she is during her visitations they simply reply with her father. that is the end of it. the other kids don't inquire where she came from or try and belittle or shame my kids in any way.

to see each of my kids run to her and her run to them at soccer games, party's, the community's 4th of july celebration, school events, etc is enough to tell me that kids are not worried about these things.

to tell you the truth i would hate to be someone that tried to make my kids feel bad in any way about grace or her origin. they would most likely ban together and kick some butt.

oh yeah the 2 older ones who were so angry about the whole thing have also come to love her along time ago. in fact my daughter is now her babtsitter. and i don't see any signs of torture or abuse on grace when she comes home everyday.

again i feel that you have been having successful visitations (as far as oc is concerned not ow) with oc for 1-1/2 yrs. stay the course and just ignore ow. my oldest sons (not from an A) mom was a real pain in the a$$. she caused many problems and i even had the sheriff go with me for pick-ups and drop-offs for about a year. i was in and pout af court and the da's office all the time. but it was still worth it in the long run.

find the virtue in the fact you and your h will teach all his kids not only the mean of committment in marriage but also the committment to family. regardless of how you became a family.

please don't jump to the easy road of bitterness here. just because you were to choose nc now doesn't mean that oc is gone forever. there are no garantees with the way your ow changes her mind that she will not pop up in a yr or two. and who knows what the oc will choose when she is old enough to seek out her bio dad. your kids may be faced with some more difficult emotions later wondering why you and h kept their sister from them. they may even come to have resentment for the two of you. who knows for sure?

oh my i must apoligize for being so long winded and i'll climb down off my soap box now.

hoping all works out, pops

<small>[ November 10, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

Pops, the difference I see here is that your wife brought a new born into the house. KT had an OC who was a toddler thrust upon her children. Big Difference. Your situation, where the OC has been there since day one is different. The children's friends do not know that you can't father children. They probably really don't even care or notice.

However, KT has an 11 year old who has been asked, who has shown clear signs of distress over the situation. Why should that child be moody, depressed, lashing out, angry, etc?

You wonder why a 3 year old should run the house? Well, if somebody was violent with my children, they would be removed. Not only that, but allowing contiuned contact with the OC, is saying that no matter what, OC's feelings are more important. That is the whole problem. Children are hurt in these situations.

All of the children in KT's story are hurting. Why not just end the hurt? Why sacrifice the children of the marriage? Their feelings do matter. They should count.

The whole problem with this situation is that the children of this marriage are suffering and their feelings need to be addressed.

I stand by the end contact. When the children ask, it can be explained quite easily. Nobody was thriving on the situation so it was best to move away from it, let everyone feel safe and secure. It is honest afterall. Lets not forget, these kids are to young to figure all of this out, someday they will realize exactly what happend, etc. So you can't really say that the kids are going to feel bad cause daddy stopped seeing his oc. They are going to feel bad for the whole sordid story. The fact that their father cheated on their mother and them. The OC is going to know that her/his mother was an OW. The reality is ugly enough for everyone. Plus it is entirely understandable, once the truth of the situation surrounding the birth, why the no contact. These kids, all of them, will be saddled with this.

So, I stand by the no contact for this family. Their children are suffering and need to come first.