this is to all ws's. most likely to ww's because i don't know of any wh's that post here.

question - what is it that you did and/or are doing to show your bs that you are serious about wanting to stay and rebuild your relationship and marriage?

did you sacrifice anything? what? how? why?

please be as specific as possible. not just the typical poja and complete honesty answers. those are a given. please elaborate.

also if there are any bs out there that want to explain what there ws did to rebuild their marriage i would be intrested in hearing that too.

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

Hmmm ...this is an interesting thread.

My Wayward Spouse (Bipolar Bear) didn't do much until we were almost four years into a very tenuous recovery. He was so immersed in guilt and so remorseful, it got in the way of our healing. Plus, he wasn't able to maintain his sobriety for any length of time and wasn't taking his medication regularly which retarded the recovery.

Once he knew I had forgiven him, he was able to begin forgiving himself. He knew what he did was so reprehensible that the liklihood of my staying in the marriage was remote...or at least he felt that too much damage had been done. He needed to know he could trust ME ...that I wouldn't leave him. He wanted to trust that he wouldn't go to all the hard, very hard work of recovery only to have me walk out on him later.

We had so many obstacles to overcome, (loss of business, foreclosure, a fake divorce to protect what little assets we had left, his mental illness and alcoholism, the scary IRS, lawsuits, and unjust court order, etc etc) our recovery took a very, very long time. It was only when I was ready to thrown in the towel that he snapped out of his destructive behavior and self imposed "hair shirt". The remorse he felt was so intense and was so debilitating that he felt "what's the use" and didn't make any effort to repair the damage. It felt like I was doing all the work (because I was) He made little effort in the beginning, choosing to indulge himself in negative thinking and wallowing in his regret.

When I had finally had enough and had gone as far as I could, there must have been something in my demeanor that signaled to him that I was all done. It must have been a kind of ESP Plan B that neither of us were conscieously aware of but felt the underlying rumblings of it all.

He sudddenly jumped to action and dried himself out, took meds religiously, helped me resolve the horrible issues that dogged us and he began Plan A'ing me back to him...just in the nick of time.

Even though all this (A & OC) started in November 1998, our true recovery did not begin until June of 2002. We are now 18 months into true and solid recovery and we are more respectful of each other than we ever were, we are kinder and gentler with each other than ever before, we are ironically more trusting of each other than we ever were and the bonus is that what ever we felt before for each other is nothing compared to what we feel for each other now. We have attained a higher, better and more intense love and closeness than we ever had before. We fuss over each other, we never do anything without talking about it first (POJA), we consider how what we do will effect the other...I mean it is a beautiful thing and something that rarely happened before. And it feels so good. Such sweet rewards to make each other Number 1 to the other.

He never looks at other women any more (except he admitted that new Vicky's Secret commercial DID distract him tonight while we were talking about our day--it distracted me!) and instead of everything being all about him, he is only interested in what's going on with me. Now, it is all about me...and this is something I rarely experienced in the past. And it feels so incredible to be his favorite flavor.

He calls me from work and tells me that he loves me and misses me and that he is "deliciously" happy with me. He tells me I am the prettiest thing he has ever seen and that he can't stand to be away from me. Five years ago I felt so alone and so unloved and abandoned, that I felt that hollow dull emptiness to my core and wanted more than anything to hear the words I hear today...those healing words and actions that have brought us to recovery.

The pain is all but gone because of his devotion to me; the gratitude we both feel is something we do not take for granted. It seems ridiculous to tell anyone here that this A and OC issue brought us closer than we ever were before because it seems incongruent that something so hideous and destructive could result in something so ultimately wonderful and fulfiling.

We are just both so happy now. I never think of OW with anger or hostility anymore even though she has seemed to hate us more than ever. On D-Day when I was adamant that we never have any contact with OC, in my excruciating pain, I demanded my husband make a decision to chose between contact with the OC and me. It was his choice but he knew that I wouldnt' be able to consider contact at that point in our marriage. Now since last year when recovery really took hold, I would be more than open for contact if he wishes to pursue a relationship.

The three things that are keeping us from making this step is OW reluctance, money and distance. I know if we were in the same town as OC, we would be active participants in the child's life now at this stage in our recovery.

When you have come through so much and come so far to find yourself at a place better than you ever imagined, you can afford to open your heart because you know and trust that your WS won't break it again. Maybe I am stupid for having trust again in my hsuband because that's how he disappointed me in the first place, but after all HE has been through, I can't imagine that he could or would ever betray that trust after all we have endured. If he did, I think I would take him to the vet and have him put to sleep.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

pops it was my H's actions that followed his words to me.

In the first year it was tough because ow was actively calling his cell, {he'd hang up}, leaving gifts at our door, {he'd hand them to me first), leaving love songs on his business phone, (I'd be the first to listen and tape them each day). See? He allowed me to see and hear it all first. Still pissed me off, but we finally had our lawyer and her lawyer ask her to stop. I was still angry and a mess.

H asked me what I'd like. I asked for several getaways a year, we did it. Vegas, Florida, New York City this year...I said we should kiss goodby before work each day as that had stopped during A, he'd leave some mornings without saying goodby! We kiss everyday now.

We share our days work each day, if only for an hour, over some wine after dinner. We had stopped that too during the A.

If I look a certain way, H will ask what's wrong, it was because I had run into ow at some point during the day, we'd talk about it and how it made me feel. H will usually say he knows how hard that was for me, and again how sorry he is that he ever strayed. I usually say that it's in my mind and I'll try to do better when I see her, and his words help reassure me to which he usually says what a good wife and best friend I have been to him all of these almost 30 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> years. How he wishes he could go back and change it all.

I always tell him we can't go back, but how good it is to have the guy I married back in our marriage because he was a virtual stranger during the A.....Then we change the subject and growl about the up coming winter or something like that.

It's the occassional love notes on the counter, the laughing over something we saw or someone said at work, it's valuing our time alone together.

In other words, the marriage we had as kids. As we get older we have so much to contend with, it's nice to put on some music on a Friday night and dance, especially to one of the old motown mushy, gushy, wimpy, love songs and then tell each other what a gift we always had in each other and how through the goodness of God we surpassed the whole A. Together. Big one that "together" thing.

You must have two willing participants to do what most of us here have done and come through it more in love than ever!

The fact that he tells me without me at his side he'd be lost, melts my heart. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So, you must find a way to start it up again pops.

Hope that helped you.
love
Debi

Morning pops, great topic!

question- what is it that you did and/or are doing to show your bs that you are serious about wanting to stay and rebuild your relationship and marriage?

1. D-day, told him I would spend the rest of my life trying to earn back his trust and respect of me. Also that I would do whatever it took so he would never regret his decision to forgive me, stay with me, and raise my OC as his own. Then I believe I started putting those promises into action with the following. (Gosh when I think about it, they're not really huge things, or some big overatures, and may seem like no big deal to some, but boy oh boy, they mean so much to him.)

2. Began to respond to his "I love you", with "I love you". Pre-A and of course during A, I would never answer his "I love you's", even though I could hear the hurt in his sighs after he received no response. Also, and this blows him away, I say "I love you" first a lot of the time now. I was never known to do this, even when things were going ok in our M.

3. I began smiling and laughing again. He noticed this bigtime, said he couldn't remember the last time I smiled, and that it meant so much to him to see me happy and more lighthearted.

4. I've taken interest in his interests, in his work, him in general.

5. I send him (brief) love emails to work nearly everyday. That is something I had never ever done!

6. I greet him when he comes home with a hug, a smile and a kiss. Oh, also showing affection is not something I often initiated in the past, but have begun doing so.

7. I've become more of a helpmate to him, not waiting for him to ask for help, but chipping in on my own accord.

(Wanna hear something really bytchy I did pre-A?...one time when he was running around with his head cut off getting ready for a business trip, I was pissed at him for something. I deliberately didn't go through my usual check list with him. I didn't ask him if he had his airline tic, passport, etc. He got all the way to the airport, didn't have his passport, and there were no later flights out that day. Had to come back home...leave the next morning, but couldn't get the direct flight. Had a lay over in Dallas which ended up being all day because of engine probs. He missed 2 days of important overseas business, and caused his firm to spend more money because I was such a creep!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

8. I'm being friendly to his family, even enjoying when they stop over. I used to bytch and start a fight everytime he said they wanted to stop by.

9. I've gone back to being a good mom to our children. Not getting on their case for every little thing. Smiling and laughing with them too, spending more time with them...when they want to...you know, teenagers!! This is a biggie for my H, he had been reminding me how short our time with them is, and that if I alienate them they will never want to come back home as adults. He said it would be the saddest thing to him to see his children not have a relationship with his wife, their mother.

10. I make sure we spend more time alone together, jumping on every opportunity, even if it's running to the hardware, or even the dump with him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . There is a good reason behind the 15 hr. rule. We were doing that before baby, now it's more difficult, but probably more important than ever.

11. Acts of service is one of his top love languages/ENs. I'm a neat freak, but not as serious as he is about neatness. Unfortunately, our children are quite the opposite. We both hate coming home to clutter, having to step over back packs, jackets and shoes. I laughed when you or fh talked about this irritant! Anyway, first thing when kids get home I have them put their things away so their Daddy doesn't have to come home to a mess. Then there is the baby and all his accessories, UNREAL, (how is it someone so little has more stuff that takes up more room than all of us big people combined?!?)...so I make sure everything is nice and organized and tidy when he gets home.

12. I cook better meals again!!!! Even making homemade desserts from time to time! It had been at least 2 yrs. since I made a home baked apple pie with a real crust!

13. Come to bed in sexy nighties instead of in things as he says, "looks like he's sleeping with his brother"!!

14. I quit the gym, and now go to an all ladies gym. No, x-om wasn't from my gym, but the gym made my H nervous. H came to meet me at the gym once, and saw me talking to a guy.

15. I quit pissing and moaning about every little thing.

16. Told him I'm an open book, he can ask me or talk to me about anything at all.

E-GADS!!!...I've made this list way too long, just should've said... I've made a conscious decision to change my ways!! because there's actually more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> !!

I was just such a crappy wife before. He is happier now. The heartache I caused on a daily basis is gone. He used to have a lot of literal pains in his heart/chest. He has said that has gone away. I believe by my changes I've also provided protection and secutity to him which is so crucial.

I'm not sure where his level of trust or respect for me is at, but I think I have some of it back. I should ask him.

See why I was so scared to tell him about the A/OC when I first came to MB? I knew I was such a lousy wife for many years before the A. I figured the A/OC would be his way out!

Look how long this is, and I haven't even answered your Q about sacrificing things. Wow, that is such a good question!

Hmmmm, thinking about that one, I don't know that I've really sacrificed anything. I guess you could say I've sacrificed my selfish behavior? That's pretty lame though, and seems odd, because I'm receiving more than I ever have in my entire life.

I feel I should be sacrificing something really big, with what he has sacrificed and will continue to sacrifice because of me and OC.

You know he wanted to retire @ 55, but now it will probably be the typical age because of OC. He says it's not a sacrifice though, says it's just life!!

How the hell such a jerk as I landed someone like him is beyond me!!

Hope my (longwinded) answers have shed some light, pops.

I've been thinking of you and fh!

Take good care.
~Aut

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

pops, i'm glad you posted this. i've been thinking about it a lot lately. as i've been patiently waiting to see some changes in my husband. and when i ask him to show me he loves me, his response is "i'm here and with you, what more do you want?" that hurts so bad. we also have a few places where my suspicions still lie. like amy was talking about the gym. my husband has a female friend that he met after the affair. they talk on the phone a lot (maybe 10 times a day). they see each other. they im each other. i have a problem with him having female friends at all. i just don't think that either of us are ready for that. his response though is "i'm not doing anything wrong with her, you're the one with the problem." i can't deal with being treated this way. it just hurts. we are going to a counselor next week who will hopefully help us.

thank you ladies for your answers. they are quite enlightening and i will respond later when i have more time.

pops

catnip,,,,

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he was able to begin forgiving himself. He knew what he did was so reprehensible that the liklihood of my staying in the marriage was remote...or at least he felt that too much damage had been done. He needed to know he could trust ME ...that I wouldn't leave him. He wanted to trust that he wouldn't go to all the hard, very hard work of recovery only to have me walk out on him later.
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this is where i think the problem is with me and fh. she has said to me and in posts here that she feels the damage was to great.

i wish i knew how to let er know that i need her to let go and believe in us.

she is so consumed by all the crap around us finances, house in disarray, irs, kids - school and sports, her work schedule, our oldest dd's marriage, and of course grace's bio dad that i don't think she ever really focuses on us.


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Now since last year when recovery really took hold, I would be more than open for contact if he wishes to pursue a relationship.
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imho, this is a huge statement from you whether you know it or not. when i came to this board i remember that you were so adament about nc. for you to show this kind of willingness to open your heart to your oc is an incredible sign of the amount of healing that has taken place in your relationship.


to all,,,,,,, those are the things i thought would be easy for a ws to do in order to rebuild the m. the calls just to say they love you, little love notes, telling you how much you mean to them and that they would be lost or they are so thankful that they married someone with the ability to forgive. they just seem to be the natural thing to do.

i quess the forgiveness of themselves has to come first.

i just feel that we have slipped back into the same rut that we were inprior to the A. i don't think fh is thinking of om or anyone else in that capacity. i just don't feel like she is "in" love with me. not that she doesn't love me. just not "in" love.

Pops said:
"i quess the forgiveness of themselves has to come first.
i just feel that we have slipped back into the same rut that we were inprior to the A."
------------------------------
I relate to both these things. It's easy to lose track of the marriage when so much else goes on (okay, I admit--great moms may be more guilty of spousal neglect, hm? guilty here!). It's also easy to return to the same ruts established over years of marriage (17 for us). I'm not sure what helps there, except a continuing commitment by both to honest communication, check lovebusters, fill lovebuckets, etc.

Re: forgiveness, after my WH did a number of things to show his commitment to rebuild (no solo communication w/XOW, got a cell phone "leash", let me know where he was at all times, went to counseling...), I created a forgiveness ceremony for him. I saw how broken he was. I included prayer and formally forgave him; also gave him roses, one by one, symbolizing each of the things we'd lost in recent years (like miscarriages and even the OC who we cannot raise), things that had contributed to our hurts and the A that we let go of. He put the petals in a wide bucket of warm water, then I washed his feet in the rose petals. We also made a poster of the "old him" (traits that allowed the affair) and burned it. Use anything that might work for you--make it meaningful for you guys: out with the bad, in with the good! Don't underestimate the role of ceremony on a person's heart.

Just some thoughts. Good luck,
J, 5y recovery

My H was the guilty (WH)one and wanted to leave the past in the past. Didn't want to discuss/talk or hear anything I had to say about it or answer any questions I had! I guess we were in the honeymoon stage for awhile after the initial shock of it all and really didn't know what to do or how to deal with it.

Then we got involved with OC and it all started to resurface. Some more truths had to come out that he did not want to face. He has been great though since then and has really changed. The thing I admire most about him now is that he is not shut off to suggestions or admitting when he is wrong now!

For example, I still struggle with trust issues and need him to verify and be held accountable for his time and where he is. He tells me where he will be but if he hasn't checked in at an agreed time for whatever "good" reason, I will get very upset. Even though it has been years this is still what I need and he might get upset or defensive @ first but then realizes the insensitivity of it, acknowledges my feelings, reassures me of his love and faithfulness and apologizes. He's very open to listening to me when I tell him I am feeling insecure or whatever and doing what I need to be reassured.

One thing, at first he was feeling so guilty all the time (took a while to forgive himself and get over need to feel punished) for what he did that he never let me know what his needs were, thinking that he was the one that had so much to make up for that he didn't deserve to "complain" or voice/have any needs of his own, he felt he was just lucky that I was still with him. So that was hard to handle but finally I helped him realize that that was just not fair and made me even MORE insecure because those were behaviors that led up to the A to begin with and if I didn't even know what he needed/wanted then how could I meet those needs so he wouldn't end up somewhere else! I had to remind him that I was the one that needed and deserved reassurance of his love but he still needed reassurance of my love too. He couldn't believe that I could still love him, thought was only staying with him for kids.

That is the best part, that we both realize that it takes effort on both sides and when you are in love it's not that hard.

The other actual "things" he does is write love letters, bring home flowers for no "reason", makes sure to give me affection, helps out around the house and compliments me in public, and verbally lets me know how much he loves me and would be lost w/o me and how much he regrets the A & situation he created and how stupid he was for ever creating it in the 1st place. And I make sure he knows how much I appreciate each and every one of these things!

Positive reinforcement always works.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong> i just feel that we have slipped back into the same rut that we were inprior to the A. i don't think fh is thinking of om or anyone else in that capacity. i just don't feel like she is "in" love with me. not that she doesn't love me. just not "in" love. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">pops - we both sat down about six months after d-day and were pretty specific about what made us feel loved. And we were really good about doing those things for the next 4 months. And then we drifted away, and things started to go bad. We have to make a conscious effort to keep from backsliding (Okay, I am worse about the backsliding than he is actually). So at our routine relationship discussions, we occassionally get out those checklists to see how we are doing.

Just last week he told me I was slacking off on calling him at work to tell him I love him. Oops! Our specifics were things like calling at work, sending cards, offering backrubs, telling each other I love you. For us, I think it has actually been harder for me to meet his needs in this regard than for him. Not that I don't want to, it's just so unnatural for me.

Pops,
I'm still in the process of showing my husband how much I appreciate him. I don't know if I'm doing a good job of it! But I am trying.
We've been trying to have more together time. Before the A we really just did things as a family and didn't take much time for just the two of us. Now we've been going out more. Just last week we went to a dinner and concert together... like a real date! I've been having a great time, and I've noticed that he's so much happier too!
In lesser ways, I've been trying to wake up with him in the mornings so we can have some extra time together. He wakes up an hour before the rest of the house so I would sleep in. But its been so nice talking with him in the morning that I'm sorry I missed it all this time.
I still need to work on a lot more though. So so so so much more!!

e.

<small>[ November 14, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: e29 ]</small>