</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> When there isn't much there, how can you rebuild? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LynnG,
thanks for putting into words what I have been trying to express. Indeed, where there is not much of a foundation, it is hard to rebuild. Probably best to start over. In my case, I have a long history with my WW. Memories, children, a house, etc. Though it has been, and still is hard, I can't just throw it all away. But, absent children and with a shorter M, I would have divorced her in a minute.

Ray, do what you feel is best, but as Lynn said, don't force it.....one way or the other. You will figure out what is best.
Michael
Me 40
FWW 39
M 19
Two Sons
A began Jan 01
D Day Jun 01
In MC, IC

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Sorry X-ray, I didn't mean to give the impression that you had to accept this OC or that you were wrong for not wanting to.

As an OC (and a BW) I was just tyring to point out that IF you chose to raise this child, that the normal feelings between a father and child can (often) develop. I know that they did for my father and me. My dad was in your shoes. Married only for 3 or 4 months when my mother asked for a divorce and returned to an old boyfriend. HOWEVER, my dad felt very differently than you did. He wanted and was ready for children. He adored my mother and worshiped the ground she walked on. He also has always found forgiveness to be easy for him--the only trait I seem to have inherited from him--he, he. (That's only funny because he isn't my bio-dad.)

In your shoes, I think I would have opted for divorce also. You are young and newly married. I also think that an affair with an ex-lover is more difficult to overcome. It may be that they never really separated emotionally and the odds of this happening again may be high.

In my case, we were married 18 years when I learned of his affair and we were in the middle of adopting three children from Russia. Had I divorced (my first thought) three young innocent kids would have stayed in an orphanage only to be put out on the streets at age 16. (I am not criticizing the Russian social services system--we don't do any better by our own children here in America. Both systems need improvement.) Had I killed him (my second thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I would have been in jail and the kids would have been in the same situation. My choice to stay and rebuild was tied into years of history together and the lives of three young kids. I am glad I stayed although I think it was the harder of the two options.

Everyone is just saying slow down. I kept saying to myself "there is nothing I can do in divorce court today that I can't do in a year if the situation isn't any better." In your case I would chose a much shorter deadline, leaving yourself right up until shortly before the birth of the child. You would still be able to disentangle yourself from being named the child's legal father and you will have calmed down enough to be certain that divorce is absolutely the best choice for you. Marriages made in haste often have bad consequences and so do divorces made in haste. Life-altering decisions should be made slowly and with as clear a mind as possible.

Meanwhile, it sounds like you have great people around you who love and care for you. Sink your roots deep and let them feed and heal you.

Prayers for healing,
MJ

LynnG~

I have sat silent so many times after reading several of your posts since Sept. You have such good and practical advice, that I figured to point out your harshness was pointless. Besides, others did that many a time anyway.

After reading your following statements this morning I decided it was time to write and tell you I am so sick and tired of your generalizations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The woman, once she gets pregnant, gets to make all the decisions that effect so many others and these types of women could care less who they hurt, they only think of themselves. Others be dammed. The father sounds like he doesn't want this child, you certainly can't be expected to bend to her wishes. Why be used?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lord I don't understand how these selfish people can even sleep at night. They must be totally empty inside. To assume that others should have to accomodated their mistakes at any cost is simply beyond comprehension.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know there are many manipulative, downright nasty women out there, whether they be OW or WW, but there are also many truly remorseful women as well. While neither type of woman cares about others while in the A, the ladder, after making the biggest mistake of their life, DO CARE about others being hurt, they DO think of others besides themselves. They DON'T have the attitude of others be damned.

Granted, a WW gets to make the decision of keeping OC or not, but the H DOES get to decide if he is staying or leaving the M. As well it should be.

Did I miss the part where x-ray said his W wants him to bend to her wishes? Last I read, she is still being pretty silent.

I fully knew the day I told my H of possible OC could be the day my M was over. My H had that rite. I honestly didn't know what his decision would be upon such news. I told him it was his rite to leave me at the curb, and that I would accept his decision. I told him that I DIDN'T expect him to do anything that would accomodate my mistake. I told him I would give the OC up for adoption. I told him he could walk away, head high, with a totally clear conscience, as he did NOTHING wrong. I told him he could go to his family and friends, telling them what a slut I was so they would know H was in NO WAY to blame for the divorce.

I was a selfish person, and I didn't sleep at night. I began sleeping at night, when my H forgave me.

You mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that this is the real world, not a fairytale. I submit to you that in the real world, there DO exist living, breathing, REMORSEFUL WS and FORGIVING BS who BOTH equally love the OC, and are living a life that is much better than any fairytale!

Please stop putting all former cheats in the same category. Many are NOT totally empty, but people who made a monumental mistake and are now truly remorseful. Many regret beyond words, the pain and suffering they have brought upon those they love. ALL are human beings, and if it weren't for the death and resurrection of the One who's birth many celebrate next week, ALL would be condemned to hell, and that sadly would include BS.

Take good care.

~autumnday

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Autumnday,

I am very harsh in my views of those who cheat and create such pain and turmoil to others. So what is the shock to you?

The woman IS IN CHARGE once she is pregnant. The father of the child, if he wishes for an abortion/adoption has 100% no right to say "no I do not want this child" but the woman does. If her lover or her husband both don't want that child, she can still force it into their lives: forcing lover to pay for 18 years and if her husband doesn't want it, HER decision alters his life with divorce or a child under his roof. Either way, it is her decision. Disagree all you want.

I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? What I am saying is the second they choose to have the child, when virtually everyone involved would prefer abortion, her husband,the father,maybe the fathers wife, etc. and she still chooses to have it, is when she is being selfsih. Everyone else be dammed.


Oh and for the record, your affair was not a mistake. I know we all, myself included use that word. But it is wrong. There was no mistake about it. You planned and carried out your well thought out deception without care of respect for your spouse. THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake.

As for bringing in Jesus, you might also want to read the bible where it states that divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage.

I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry.

As for this poor man, he is new to this. He is confused and hurt. I would hate to see him feel that he has to behave in a certain politically correct way. This man has feelings and he has a right to them. HE is the injured party here, not his wife. HER SILENCE is deafining isn't it? HE is the one who wants his marriage,just not the OC. What is so wrong with that?

Oh, and your opinion of me and my harshness is noted, it hardly tears me up, as you must know.

Good day.

Lynn - Once again I offer my sorrow for your pain. Only Jesus can heal this deep hurt and He will if you choose to allow Him in your heart. That being said, I once again see you referencing abortion as a positive alternative. Adoption is the best option if the child is unwanted. Why penalize another innocent life because of the selfishness of someone else? Your suggestions to eradicate the child will result in what? To eliminate all signs of the affair? No way - the guilt and self-condemnation remains. To bring closure to the BS? Sorry - the taking of an innocent life will only add more sorrow. It would appear you are consciously or subconsciously tranferring the sin of the perpetrators unto the baby. The baby had no voice in the decision to commit adultery and it certainly has no voice in the decision whether or not to grant it life. If it did, what do you think it's response would be? Lynn - supposed you were born as a result of extramarital or premarital sex. Would you now, as an adult, make the decision to terminate your life? This child will be a special person to someone and bring enrichment to their lives. Why would you deny them that right just to fulfill your desire for revenge or justification? I am praying that the Lord will soften your heart and set you free from your apparent bitterness and unforgiveness.

Ray, yourself, and many others have legitimate feelings in a very sensitive issue. That is understandable. Innocent lives have been touched, but not necessarily ruined or destroyed. Time, prayer, and support heal many wounds. The baby is innocent, also, but unlike the adults involved the child cannot make decisions about it's future.

Your views on abortion are your own, and I respect that. I do however, believe in abortion. That arguement will go on forever.

I see so many people on here who are lost and confused. Then being told that the only way to live their lives is to bury their pain, bury their thoughts and feelings all to accomodate others. So many people believe that once the child is here, that the BS has to suck it up and accomodate everyone. Pushing their own wishes and needs aside as if they were wrong to have any. I don't believe that in the year 2003 that people are still expected to sacrifice themselves. I find that horrid.

Do I blame the OC? Not anymore then I blame my own children for their fathers affair. Which is none.

And yes,I do get angry that others think that a BS, the family and even a MM are wrong, mean, etc. if they choose NC with the OC. It is absurd. There is nothing wrong at all, with a family deciding on what is best for them. To many people here make it seem like it is worse then the affair itself. That lies the blame on the shoulders of people who had nothing to do with the affair in the first place. The faithfull spouse and children did not create this, and once again, should not be expected to clean up the mess.

You, assume I am hurting since I am telling people they are ok to shout out their hurt. To not deny their feelings and to listen to their hearts, but use their heads. I am some how hurting since I am telling these people that they don't have to do what makes it easier on others.
But to think of themselves at this time? Seems odd to me. I will always and forever side with the faithfull spouse on this issue. I will always and forever believe in them and support what it is that they feel they need. I will always and forever let them know that they are ok no matter what it is they feel or think. That they are ok to think and feel whatever they want. That if this man wishes his wife would abort the oc, that is ok too. It does not make him bad or wrong. He has a right to express his feelings.

I think the biggest mistake that can be made is to say, ok, your forgiven, lets pretend this didn't happen. I will have contact and fall in love, or I will raise this oc, and pretend it is mine. Talk about living in denial. That will explode one day.

I am sickend that people are in this position, I feel for them. They are shell shocked, numb and not certain as to what is going on. I would rather be harsh and point out the reality then to sugar coat it and leave them helpless. They do have a voice, they can and should use it. If not now, when? Should they be told to sit back and let everything blow apart? Do nothing? Pretend the child is his and not tell anyone to avoid the humiliation? Then what, it will go away? Come on, that is a recipe for disaster down the road. Honesty is the absolute only way out of this mess. And if you can't be honest with yourself and your spouse at this time, what is the point of the marriage at all? If the rebuilding is going to be on more lies, what would be the point?

Geeesh.

So, no, sorry, but I am not hurting. I want to help these people who are lost and scared and confused. I want to empower them, to stand up for themselves cause nobody else will. I have been in the trenches of this and the only way out is right down the middle. Get to the heart of it, and work it out. PERIOD. You can't pretend anything.

Lynn - Sorry I misjudged you as hurting, angry, and vindictive. After all, who am I, or anyone else on this board, to judge whether or not you need help yourself?

Actually, we agree on most everything here except the abortion issue. The baby is innocent, is flesh and blood, and has a spirit and soul. I would think that you at least would acknowledge that. I have never stated that the parties involved should not feel horrible or express their emotions. I would strongly urge Ray to slow down and use his head as well as his heart. You have stated your agreement with that.

You are certainly entitled to have your view on abortion. That is your business and you are obviously ready to stand before God to defend that position.

Well Lynn,
I totally understand you and am right there with you. I appreciate what you have to say. Even if I don't agree w/ all your POVs (abortion/ divorce) I have not been offended yet by anything you have to say. I appreciate your support and honesty. So....just for the record I "get" what you mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ray you have every right to what you feel, need and WANT. You also have every right to change your mind, I think that is all most people are trying to get at. It sounds like your W has made her decision already. By not making a decision or even staying quiet about something IS a decision.

Your W will, like she already has, do what she wants and it sounds like you have a really great family that will be there to help you through it. No one "deserves" this.

everyone, I know now that despite different viewpoints, everyone is trying to help me. I appreciate all the advice.

My only response to the question, why the hurry, would be related to OC. If she is going to have an abortion (which at this point I don't think she will consider), time is limited.

If she is not, I need to know so. I just want to do whatever I have to do to make sure I don't get stuck being the legal father of this child.

During one quick meeting with the lawyer, he told me there are things we can do, but I still worry.

If she is not willing to give up OC, one way or another, I want to know so I can move on with my life. Maybe I should anyway. After all, she has shown her true colors.

I know her baby is not mine because we have not been intimate in around four months. She said the doctor told her she is about 7-8 weeks along.

The past couple of days, I have been wondering about another time earlier in our marriage where she cut me off, and we were not intimate for a couple of months.

Could this have happened before? Have I been a fool for the four years I have known her? I feel like I have never really known her, and don't know what's inside her head.

I have not talked to her again. I plan on calling her this weekend, or hopefully she will call me.

I have not pressured her, but have just let her know my position. I guess the ball is in her court.
Ray

double post, sorry

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: XRay ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why penalize another innocent life because of the selfishness of someone else? Your suggestions to eradicate the child will result in what? To eliminate all signs of the affair? No way - the guilt and self-condemnation remains. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I for one am not advocating anything to anyone. That being said, a child isn't a life until it can exist outside the womb. IMHO.

In the life as we here on earth know as life.

Eradicating the fetus would seem to solve so many problems with affairs.

The new born child for a time confuses many WS. It's a baby and any baby can/ will do that! It's why advertisers use babies in commercials! Soft spots to the heart!

When the woman be it WS or OW chooses to keep the child it opens up a land-mine of feelings mostly horrible ones for all of the extended families. Not for the woman who carries the fetus or the fetus itself! It sometimes makes an affair an irrepairable matter. Without the fetus one would have the affair only to deal with and that is bad enough.

In some circumstances the unborn fetus is so reprehensabile to the families that upon being born, ends all means to mend the marriage. That is truly sad and selfish. Without that "trail" many marriages would become repaired with counseling but that lingering "trail" causes many to just give up.

Any man here raising his wifes oc is unimaginably super human. No matter what, the BS will think about where the child came from in some way for the rest of his days. The other way around? Female BS will never forget because of CS/Health insurance.

Although things are good for the most part in recovered marriages an OC makes things "unforgettable" for any BS.

Therefore to bring an OC to fruition is like doing the most selfish thing you can do if you expect your BS to remain involved. BS who are not involved far much better and have a true recovery without reminders in their face forever.

Most days go well... then BAM something sets you off and well.... you know what I mean....

In the beginning I am absolutely sure the woman keeps the baby because she hopes against hope the MM will be with her. IN THE BEGINNING when they first find out. THEN WS hangs around from guilt and confusion and continues to lie in THE BEGINNING to appease OW and wounded wife. Then all hell breaks loose when OW finds MM doesn't want her and BECAUSE of the child.... the couple suffers 18 years of penalty....

Ray, run and do not walk to the nearest exit. I would tell my own son this if your case were his.

Prayers of a huge graduation and someone you deserve in the not to distant furure.

Surround yourself with your familys' love!

Lynn the harsh reality you say is true. Gotta hand it to you for telling things the way they are in most marriages that continue, it's like you've been peeking into my bedroom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Um..... I mean my kitchen!!!!

Need your views LynnG....stick around with those words to the wise and wounded!

love
Debi

I have clearly stated, on numerous times that the oc is innocent, not the only one, just one of many.

The issue is who decides what to do with the fetus. It took two to create it. Why can't it take two to decide what happens to the fetus? Where is the fathers rights? If he clearly does not want that child, the woman can still force the issue and give birth. So the argument that she is in control 100% and can totaly disrupt lots of lives for her own selfish reasons still stands. And that was the point I was making. That these women are thoughtless and selfish in the decisions to keep the child. Others be dammed.

The bigger picture is the pregnancy. These women will scream from the hills how it takes two, etc. yada yada. Yet it is all their own personal choice what happens once the child is conceived. The males get no say at all. Then these same women whine and cry foul and are shocked and upset that the father and his family want nothing to do with the oc. The father is then stuck paying support for 18 years to a child that he never wanted. If it took two to create, it should take two to decide what happens to that pregnancy. If he does not want the child, and she does not agree with abortion, then she should take full and 100% responsibility for her choice to keep the child. But we all know that will never happen, cause then the financial burden falls to the taxpayer. Either way, the women who make this choice, expect others to foot the bill for her choice. Once again, thining only of herself. THAT was my argument.

As for abortion, I find it hard to belive that God would forvive adultery and not abortion. I don' t think God is two faced. Thou shall not kill is not rated higher then Thou shall not commit adultery.

Merry Christmas to all

Amen Lynn G

Amen Lynn G

lynn... a couple things...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have every right in the world to feel as you do. You are like many many many many people who do not want to have any contact with oc whatsoever. Don't feel bad. I am totally for no contact with the oc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">lynn, everyone who has responded to this thread has agreed with you on this point. ray, you have every right in the world to feel exactly how you do. like i said before, offering another opinion does not negate your feelings in any way! i think by the volume of support you've received, you understand that.

but lynn, you tell ray how he should be feeling too. and don't say that you don't. you're just on the other side of the coin. read the quote below... while most here might like for ray to take things slowly (not in the legal sense, but as far as making a decision based on raw emotion), you're screaming for him to kick his wife to the curb without pause.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel bad for men (again) in this situation. The woman, once she gets pregnant, gets to make all the decisions that effect so many others and these types of women could care less who they hurt, they only think of themselves. Others be dammed. ...Why be used?

...There would be no shame at your feet for leaving a woman who gets herself knocked up by another man.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well lynn, there's not much of that that i DON'T take offense to. not that you care i'm sure. you are so quick to jump in and thrash every ow/ww here with the exact same anger and malice regardless of the situation. you apply your feelings about your situation, your husband, and your ow to absolutely everyone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lord I don't understand how these selfish people can even sleep at night. They must be totally empty inside. To assume that others should have to accomodated their mistakes at any cost is simply beyond comprehension.

Why stay in a situation that will be nothing but heartache, embarrassment, anger and humiliation when you can probably go and meet a nice young woman with moral fiber and character... Why force it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm gonna take this one step further and apply this sweeping generalization to your life...

wow lynn! i sure pity you being married to such a selfish man! such an awful, sleepless, shell of a man! every waking hour of every day must be filled with such heartache, embarrassment, and anger... how humiliating! to have to face the rest of your life with a man with absolutely no morals, no character... every day forcing your marriage to work. forcing some sort of meaning into your horrid existence...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...a man who really isn't sorry cause it doesn't count if it's after the fact...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[HE] planned and carried out [HIS] well thought out deception without care of respect for [YOU] . THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...such a deceitful, lying, manipulative, ugly man!

see, if you're going to generalize everything, it includes your husband. and i sure hope that's not how you treat him. from the rest of your post, describing your life together before and since the affair, it doesn't sound like you do treat him that way. but then again, you also said this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so, maybe the one we should all be pitying IS your h...

not that you care.

[edited to add: like autumnday, i've often wanted to respond to things you've said, but haven't. so while i'll continue to offer my opinion and my experience to people new to this, i'll not be responding to you. it's not really worth it.]

amy

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Amethyst03 ]</small>

Well, fortunately in some situations, the MM doesn't try to stop the OW from proceeding with the OC pregnancy, if that is what she chooses...

Not all OW scream and cry and beg for support.

Some xOW apply for support because for once in their lives, they aren't only thinking of themselves, but they are thinking of the OC...

ESPECIALLY when MM wants nothing further to do with xOW/OC situation...

I'm perfectly well aware of what my husband did. Good grief, while I tried, I eventually did have to come out of my hurt and denial and face the cold hard facts. So I am well aware of what he did, and who was hurt. Noting new to me.

However, when he was faced with a situation that was out of control (i.e. oc on the way) he did NOT want the oc. She choose to keep that child. He never wanted anything to do with oc. Once oc was born, she tried very hard to force contact with anyone in our family. So certain that once the oc was born that oc would be part of our family. My husband choose not to upset our household anymore, not to hurt and humiliate our children, stayed the course and had no contact. Does that absolve him of the pain, hurt and selfish behavior? Heck no. He is as guilty as her. He has caused this hurt. I have never stated anything other than that. I am not to addle brained as to lie blame for the affair soley at the feet of the OW. Sorry, not that naive. However, once that OC was conceived and he made it clear he did not want her to have it, and SHE choose to have it, that is another story. He turned his back on her and put his energy into rebuilding our marriage. He was truly sorry for all the hurt and pain. Still it is a bit of to little to late. As I went through the early days, I felt, and still do that cheaters remores is a bit fake. Sorta like sorry they were caught. But we will never know will we? Just another lump to swallow.

However, once there is a pregnancy, it changes lots of things. Lots of people are going to be affected by this child being born. Some will be hurt, others will suffer financial loss. And yet one parent gets no choice at all with the outcome of their "mistake" And for the record, No I do not think of what my husband did as a mistake. It was calculated, lies and deception, cruel beyond belief. So if you think I blame only the woman,you are severly mistaken. I do blame the choice to have the oc on her though. When the man has clearly told the woman that he does not want the child, would prefer an abortion, his family will be upset, etc. and she still goes ahead, has the child and then gets CS, yeah, I think that is selfish. And yes, it did take Two to create, but how come only one to get to make the decision on keeping it or not?

So, I do consider these women selfish.

As for leaving his wife. As I stated earlier, I would tell the exact same thing to a young woman, no children, no history, no property, the same thing. Leave. Run. Find somebody worthy of your affections. Life is hard enough and no reason to force it. And yes, had my husband done this BEFORE we had created a history, I would have bolted in a second.

And I can assure you I did not heal over night. It was a long drawn out process. You can have all the pity you want for my husband. To bad you weren't around about 14-16 years ago. I'm surehe could have used it. Because he was person non-grata for a very long time. However, he did everything in his power to keep me as his wife. It did not happen easy. Heck, it would have been much easier on him I'm sure, if he would have just given up. So I will send him your regards.

Also, this young man does deserve to be with a woman who loves him and treats him well. They have basically no history together, and she has been married a blip, and is cheating? Hmmmm.


My regards, of course.

Lynn~

I am not shocked at all by your harsh views of those who cheat and create pain and turmoil to others. What DOES bother me is that you seem to make no exception for those who FORMERLY lied, deceived and cheated but have now repented, show true remorse, asked for forgiveness from their spouse and have received it.

My disagreement with you is not on the matter of who gets to make which decisions in regard to an OC. I've stated in previous threads that men do NOT have many options. Unfortunately the law of the land does give women the sole power in deciding what to do with a pregnancy. There are two sides to the coin though, while a man cannot force a woman to have an abortion, he also cannot force her to keep the baby. That being said, I do believe the law should be changed, giving the father and mother equal decision making power.

Where I disagree with you is when you tend to paint a picture where all pregnant women with an OC behave the same. As if we ALL say, "Hey, look at me, I'm pregnant...I'm doing what I want with the baby...I don't care what you say...You don't matter...Me and my OC are all that matter...My way or the highway, etc, etc...

Lynn, I understand many women behave this way. I am only trying to point out that there are also women who behave differently. Women that do have true remorse, that are more than willing to work with their H to find a solution that both can be enthusiastic about. Women who are very humbled to find themselves with a man who is unbelievably able to forgive them and is willing to work with them to rebuild the M, as well as accept the OC as their own. Men, not in denial as you suggest, but men with a great deal of love and capacity for forgiveness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? What I am saying is the second they choose to have the child, when virtually everyone involved would prefer abortion, her husband,the father,maybe the fathers wife, etc. and she still chooses to have it, is when she is being selfsih. Everyone else be dammed.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I do not think being remorseful is like a kid getting caught in the cookie jar. Feeling bad is NOT the same as being remorseful. Feeling bad is NOT how I nor my H would describe how I felt and continue to feel about the transgressions I committed. I could tell you how I feel, but I honestly don't think you would believe the depths of pain and guilt I feel for what I have brought upon my H.

As far as "virtually" everyone wanting the woman to have an abortion, that may be true in many cases, but again not in ALL. I'm quite sure you will find the following difficult to believe, but a few weeks after our OC was born, while going through a period of extreme guilt, I once said to my H, "I don't know if I can love this baby as I do OUR children, I should've given this baby up for adoption, maybe should've even aborted him." He said to me, "How can you say that? If I can love him as if he's my own, and see past all the hurt, why can't you?...I don't want to ever hear you say that again...In fact, just so you know, if you would've aborted him, I think I would've found it harder to forgive you." My H may be the "expection to the rule" among BH, but I am quite certain there are more like him out there. I know of at least 4 others on here who are much like him. YES, their options were few, but I don't believe any of them would say they were forced into anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh and for the record, your affair was not a mistake. I know we all, myself included use that word. But it is wrong. There was no mistake about it. You planned and carried out your well thought out deception without care of respect for your spouse. THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct here. Mistake was a poorly chosen word for me to use. I in no way ever want to convey that I am minimizing what I did. However, I would've thought referring to myself as a slut, (and meaning it) would give you an indication I realize what I did was much, much more than a mistake.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for bringing in Jesus, you might also want to read the bible where it states that divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know full well the Bible states divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage. Why do you think I reminded my H on d-day, that he had every right to leave me high and dry? That he could divorce me with a clear conscience.

We could go back and forth forever and a day on what the Bible states. I do know this though, that the Bible is chalk full of sinners, including many adulterers. The main theme is that there is a way to be delivered from our sin. In fact, as I'm sure you know, while Jesus was in his human form, he was born a descendant of a very well known FORMER adulterer. What a beautiful, wonderous, and even unbelievable commentary of true remorse, true forgiveness, and true reconcilliation. I wouldn't classify David as a man only feeling bad because his hand was caught in the cookie jar, would you? I get the feeling it irks you, that I, a FWW have the nerve to speak in Biblical terms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need to say sorry, I agree with this. However, once again, not ALL cheaters fall into this category. Some feel badly, (not strong enough word) because of what THEY DID, not because they were caught.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for this poor man, he is new to this. He is confused and hurt. I would hate to see him feel that he has to behave in a certain politically correct way. This man has feelings and he has a right to them. HE is the injured party here, not his wife. HER SILENCE is deafining isn't it? HE is the one who wants his marriage,just not the OC. What is so wrong with that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ray is MOST definitely the injured party. What I have been posting to you is NOT meant in any way to say he doesn't have a right to the way he is feeling. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with him not wanting the OC. It is perfectly understandable. I don't think his W's silence is deafening though. He has told her his terms and what he can live with. She might well be finding it difficult to give her response to him, right on the spot. I now realize I should've started a new thread to you individually, so as not to confuse the point of this thread, and I apologize for that.

I guess the main thing I wanted to convey to you, is that not all cheaters are the same. Some of us are truly FORMER cheaters in every sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, and your opinion of me and my harshness is noted, it hardly tears me up, as you must know.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know. Afterall, you self proclaimed yourself as the board monster. I was pretty sure nothing could hurt you. It was not my intention to hurt or tear you up anyway, only to call you out on your inaccurate generalizations.

There are many, many areas where I agree with you. The areas where I don't agree with you, I still respect your views, and I keep my mouth shut, because we are each entitled to our own beliefs. It is when you speak an opinion as if it is fact, that I have trouble not speaking up.

I did want to address one more point that you made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for abortion, I find it hard to belive that God would forvive adultery and not abortion. I don' t think God is two faced. Thou shall not kill is not rated higher then Thou shall not commit adultery.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are completely correct, God is not two faced. Of course God forgives abortion, as well as adultery, murder, etc... However, in my opinion that does not mean we should live our lives as if to say, "Hmmmmm, I can do this sin and I can do that sin because God is always there to forgive me." I regret to say I lived my life for a time with this attitude.

Also, since you quoted, "thou shalt not kill" in reference to abortion, and that God would forgive abortion, are we to believe you do see abortion as a sin?

One last thing...when you signed your reply to me with "Good day" I thought of Paul Harvey and how he always signs off with the same phrase, in such a jovial way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Is that how you meant it toward me? I kinda doubt it...oh well.

~autumnday

"Fetus" is strictly a medical term for a baby. The pro-choice lobby adopted this term in order to de-humanize the baby and to make it somehow less abhorrent to abort it. When we say "baby" that personalizes the child and gives it a human identity. We see a "baby" as a "baby". A "fetus" gives the inpression of a non-descript blob of tissue, which is exactly how the abortion industry wants it portrayed. Life begins at conception, not at the point of entry into the "real world". The mother's womb is a part of the "real world" creation that God made. Abortionists call the abortion procedure "terminating a pregnancy". If they termed it what is actually is, "murder", very few people would consider it as a viable option. We also refer to adultery or fornication as an "affair", in order to cast the same impression.

If your husband enthusiatically agreed to keep child and raise child, that is a far cry from the others. Maybe I do tend to lump.

I am speaking primarily of this man, his wife, her silence, etc. She is hardly trying to work this out with him. She appears to not be listening to his needs and wants. And sadly, appears to have put herself and her child above him.

I do belive in your husband being saddened that you worried about loving that child as much as your others.

I have to go back and read, but I don't recall saying your husband was in denial. I am unaware of your story. I do know that denial is a very common occurance in the infidelity saga. It is a self defense mechanism that we can't control. We can't decide to deny anything. It happens. I will read again.

Paul Harvey???? Wow, blast from the past. I use the term Good day often. Or Regards. Or whatever is on my mind for a salutation.

I do however, believe that when I say "virtually all" I was thinking of situations where virtually everyone but the pregnant woman, is not welcoming of the child. Quite obvious that it can't adhere to all scenarios.

As for beliving people can be sorry, well of course, and it has to show in actions not words. Words are cheap. In your case, apparently your husband forgave and accepted. In many cases, it does not work quite that way. If he didn't want the child, then what? He is obviously a strong man to raise a child with others knowing he is not the father. Actually, that is quite impressive. I guess I don't have that kind of strength.

I have had friends and family who think I was crazy to stay with my husband after his affair. They would have gone nuts if I had the OC in our home. I just didn't have the strength. It's bad enough that it was the talk for a while. The humiliation is really quite difficult. Especially in the early years when you are trying to decide what to do, how to do it, how to tell. It was to much for me.