xray - Marriage Builders® Forums

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i didn't want to hijack the "oc/father relationship" thread, so decided to start a new one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Actually, I said "giving up" the OC is a deal breaker. My W is pregnant by her OM. I am willing to try and make our M work, but I will not raise another mans child and I will not support her during the pregnancy. She can get an abortion, or go away til the baby is born and she can give it up for adoption. Either way, she has to choose, me or the baby. But, I cannot agree to raise that child. So, we cannot have mutual agreement on keeping the baby. <hr /></blockquote>i'm not going to patronize you and say that i know you feel. all i know about your situation is the little bits that you've shared so far. i don't know how new the knowledge of your w's affair and pg are... i don't know if you two have other kids... how long you've been married... if om knows about the pg or not... etc, etc.

what i do know is what my h and i went through. just as your wife deciding to keep the baby is a "deal breaker" for you, had my h told me under no circumstance would he raise that child, it would've been an instant "deal breaker" for me.

please don't take this the wrong way. it's near impossible to know what "tone of voice" something is being written in, but in this case, i'm not trying to beat you over the head and i'm not wanting to be insensitive. like i said, i don't know much/anything about you or your life.

in the case of a bh and a ww who's pg with an oc, it is almost always the bh who has to make the choice to raise the oc or not. for the ww, it's not really a choice. it's a given.

that may be a double standard. that may not be fair. it may not be right. yet as unfair (and impossible) as it may seem to you right now, as the bh, you need to decide whether it's more important to be right or to be married.

if you post some more details, there are others here who are/have been in your shoes with regard to raising their ww's oc... pops and k are "oldies", ferruz is brand new here like you.

sorry to have to welcome you here...

amy

I do believe that the betrayed spouse has to have the freedom to choose what they are willing to accept and what they can't.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> in the case of a bh and a ww who's pg with an oc, it is almost always the bh who has to make the choice to raise the oc or not. for the ww, it's not really a choice. it's a given. <hr /></blockquote>I believe you are incorrect. The WW does have the choice to give the child up for adoption. XRay has said he would be willing to work with that option.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...right now, as the bh, you need to decide whether it's more important to be right or to be married. <hr /></blockquote>While there was no OC involved, my wife had every right to end our marriage. It wasn't about being "right or being married." I think that bit of advice doesn't really apply to situations like these. The BS has to decide what they are willing to take. It's very condescending for the WS to judge whether they are right or wrong.

So I would think that it would be the WW who must decide if she "wants to be right or wants to be married." He has told her what he can live with.
If she can't, that's her choice.

As a former wayward spouse, I try to imagine myself in my wife's place. I'd like to think I could forgive her emotional or physical unfaithfulness. While I acknowledge that one doesn't know what they'll do until faced with it, I have trouble imagining that I could accept genetic infidelity.

The point is that it would be entirely my choice and my right to make it at that point. And no one else would have the right to judge me if I didn't choose to continue my marriage.

LO~

Could you please define "genetic infidelity"?

Thanks,

~aut

Amethyst,
I am 27, WW is 25. We have been married three years. No kids of our own.

I realize we all make mistakes. I am willing to work on the marriage and think I can get past her A.

But, I cannot and will not spend the rest of my life with a daily reminder of her infidelity. All I am asking is the same that many (admittedly not all) BW's ask....that the OC not be a part of our lives.

She can have an abortion, or give the OC up for adoption. But I cannot agree to have that child in my life.
Ray

Ray,
I can understand your pain. I understand your thought pattern, as I too felt that way.

Now, I have another thought pattern.

"That child" is no longer a constant reminder of the reminder of my FWH's infidelity, but Lil Bit is now a CONSTANT reminder of forgiveness and committment.

We didn't have children together when the A and resulting OC came into our lives. But now we have 2 children, Lil Bit(OC) and Baby Mac.

My heart is still very scarred from the effects of my H's A... but let me tell you one thing... Seeing my H pour out his love on my son is one of the most beautiful things to see.
To see the man you love cradle your child with love is the most beautiful thing to a woman.

Should your heart soften to having this child in your life... should you decide to raise him/her as your own... Would be a large step in forgiving your FWW and showing her what she means to you.

Search your heart and your soul, Ray... If you love your wife, don't throw away your marriage over an innocent child. If you love your wife then it it possible to love the child as well, as he/she is part of your wife.

And if the OM doesn't know about the pregnancy, then all the better. Accept the child as yours.. and if you raise him/her... it won't make one lick of difference about the DNA.

Prayers for you and your situation.

Originally posted by XRay:

She can have an abortion, or give the OC up for adoption. But I cannot agree to have that child in my life.
Ray

If she elects to carry the pregnancy to term, with plans to relinquish the babe for adoption after delivery, how will you feel about being around your wife watching her belly grow?

Pep

First of all, being right does not equal having to accept and raise this child. That seems to hold a judgmental view of the BH here. Seems to say that if he can't raise the OC he is wrong.

This man has feelings and they count. This is his marriage too, his life, his future, not just his wife's. If he has told her that and she is not willing to discuss this, then they both have different needs. He has a right to not accept or want the other mans child. That does not make him wrong. I applaud his honesty here, he did not create this situation and has a right to his own feelings. This is the real world, not some Fairytale.

Xray, you are not wrong. You feel that way, and that is right for you. I find this situation very difficult. If you two can't come to an agreement that you both accept, 100%, I guess the marriage would be over. You have stated what you want, what you need. Don't ever be ashamed of that. You should not have to lower your moral expectations. Stand tall and if you stay true to yourself, you will be fine. Don't let others, WW or anyone to force you into a situation that you will regret later.

What has she said about abortion, adoption, etc?

Is she adament on keeping this child? With absolutely no regard to how you feel? Consider that while you are mulling this over. It will be hard enough to rebuild any type of trust in the firstplace, but with her obvious disregard to your feelings, it will be impossible. Love does not equal trust.

You should speak to an attorney right now and if you think you are headed for divorce. You can take steps to assure an equitable distribution of the assets. For example, is she using joint funds for another mans child? You could have that deducted from her share of the equity. Stuff like that. Plus it would be in your best interest to get out the divorce before the baby is born so you are not somehow trapped into a financial mess with this. You would be surprised at how quickly you could be held financially accountable here. Is your wife on your insurance? Are you paying a premium for a family plan just to include her? If this child is born while married, she can put you on the birth certificate and then she can sue you for child support. Your paying for insurace could be construed as acceptance and the state possibly could say you "accepted" the child, and were willing to pay, and then hold you accoutable. BE CAREFULL. You could fight it, but it could turn into quite a mess. The fees upfront are far cheaper then it will be to force the OM into a DNA test. He probably is hoping that you will raise OC too. He probably would refuse a DNA and if she put your name on the BC, you will have a hard time not paying for his child. Speak to an attorney.

I get slammed on a regular basis by a couple of OW/OW supporters here. They hate to see anyone empower themselves in this situation. They want everything to revolve around the OC and expect everyone to accept, love and pay for the OC. They will tell you how innocent OC is, etc. Not once showing any concern for your feelings or the rights you will have in this situation. They hate the fact that a BW can sue for CS before them to secure family funds. They consider this wrong and now the BW are stealing from the OC. They get wound up when legal means are used keep family funds from leaving the family. They consider it unfair, etc. What they do not like is that it is legal. They do not want others to go and protect assets. They call it wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I call it self preservation. You need to protect your future, expecially right now.

So you get thee to an attorney and explain the situation so that IF your marriage does not survive, you are not stuck paying for another mans child. You can start protecting assets right now, today. Then you can try again to work it out with her. Maybe she will do the "right" thing and abort, (see how wrong that is for others to say what is right or not? Thats what I think she should do, but it is wrong for me to say she is wrong for not doing it), or give up for adoption, or you may even decide to raise oc afterall. If the marriage fails, you will have set in motion a legal way out that doesn't bury you later in a legal mess.

Don't ever feel guilty for your feelings. Own them and stand tall. This is her mess, and if she can't look past herself, consider and respect you, then you need to take care of yourself and your future, and that includes your financial future. It is an ugly truth to the real world. But grab your power back.

Don't be duped until it is to late. You need to be aware of all that is going on here.

If your marriage works out, and you choose to keep oc, then no harm done. But it would have been great insurance just in case.

[ December 09, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]

Ray - While I respect your feelings and views on this problem, I cannot support abortion (murder) as an option. If you think destroying this child is a solution for your anger then you are seriously mistaken. As a minister-in-training and a police chaplain, I have counseled women and men who felt abortion was the correct option, only to later suffer extreme guilt and condemnation. Even though they may later stand before God and repent of this they still have emotional and spiritual scars. Rightfully so, as abortion is a heinous act and the ultimate act of selfishness.

On the other hand, I have never counseled anyone who regretted keeping the child or putting it up for adoption to a loving couple. Your attorney, or any adoption agency, can plug you into a family who will pay all expenses and offer you much needed support during the pregnancy. Many churches also have crisis pregnancy outreaches.

Lynn - Sorry for your pain but you should understand the baby is completely innocent. The child deserves every right to life that you and I received. The child is the only innocent one here and to murder it will only serve to add more hurt to their situation. Your advice to abort may have been well-intended but is way off base.

The baby is always completely innocent. But this man did not want, or even create this child. He owes this child nothing. It is not even his.

Abortion...some are for, some against. Arguments have been made for years. That is a personal choice.

This man is innocent too. His feelings count, they matter as does he. He has a right to be angry and hurt. He has a right to say what he will or will not accept into his life. He has a right to say that he does not want this child. He has been hurt and he deserves compassion, empathy and support. This is not just about the OC.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stacia_Lee

Now, I have another thought pattern.

"That child" is no longer a constant reminder of the reminder of my FWH's infidelity, but Lil Bit is now a CONSTANT reminder of forgiveness and committment.
<hr /></blockquote>Thank you Stacia, for saying what I really want to say sometimes in this forum, but don't because I believe it wouldn't carry any weight, considering...

What we see when we look at the OC is a CHOICE. If forgiveness has truly been achieved, it is difficult to see the OC in any other light.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If you love your wife, don't throw away your marriage over an innocent child. If you love your wife then it is possible to love the child, as he/she is part of your wife. <hr /></blockquote>My H said the exact words that I put in bold when explaining to me how he was able to get past my A, find forgiveness, and truly love the OC.

XRay~

I hope you will be able to find answers soon. This is such a painful thing to be going through, and especially at such a young age. It will likely be thee most painful thing you will ever experience. The MB concepts found on this site are very valuable in helping you to come to decisions. As far as the decision making process between you and your wife, look up POJA, (policy of joint agreement). Also, the book "Surviving An Affair", (which you can order from the bookstore here, or from just about anywhere), will help you tremendously. I know too, that somewhere Harley advises young couples who don't have any children of their own, that divorce may be the more viable option. I'm sure I'm not saying that totally correctly, but I do recall the jist of it.

I may have missed it somewhere, did your W say yet what she is willing to do?

Take good care.

~autumnday

XRay,
while I believe abortion is an individual choice, I would ask you to consider this option long and hard. I could not do it with a child of my own, or even with a child that who was, through no fault of my own, wrapped up in my life. Even if you choose not to participate in the life of the OC, there are other options. One is adoption. There are many, many, loving and deserving parents who would provide a wonderful home for the OC. The second option is let the OM have the OC, with your WW paying CS. Fair is fair. He conceived the OC, let him raise him/her. Many here will tell you if the OM does not know, don't tell him. I disagree. I believe he has a right to know he has child on the way, and be given the opportunity to accept responsibility. But, please, think about what I said. There are other options to abortion.
Michael

Xray, welcome under duress. I am sorry you are hurting so.

I agree with getting legal advice at this point.

I wanted to comment on one of your statements, "...BW's ask...that the OC not be a part of our lives."

The only reason for NC with my H's 2 OC's, is because of OW. If OW was not in their lives, and OC's were up for adoption, no problem. I could have raised them as my own. Unfortunately, most of us BS never have that opportunity, as most OW keep their children. Therefore, any contact with OC will always involve OW. It's not the OC, it is the OW that threatens the marriage. In your case, the OM.

Your position is not the same as a BW. You would never have to have contact with OM, ever.

The OC is innocent. This "reminder" could be the sunshine of your life.

In your case, you never have to have contact with OM, if you choose to raise OC as your own.

Would OM be willing to keep his child, with no contact, with you or your wife?

As a mother, I find the maternal instinct very strong.

If your love your wife give counseling a chance.

ember

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by XRay:
Amethyst...I am willing to work on the marriage and think I can get past her A.

But, I cannot and will not spend the rest of my life with a daily reminder of her infidelity. All I am asking is the same that many (admittedly not all) BW's ask....that the OC not be a part of our lives...
<hr /></blockquote>Hi XRay,
Something jumped at me when I read the part where you said you will not spend the rest of your life with a daily reminder of her infidelity... I tend to think that the OC is not the only thing that will remind you of your WS's infidelity. Unfortunately, there are triggers that may possibly haunt you for a lifetime, even after any potential kids are gone from the nest. Learning how to manage those triggers will be your biggest task, perhaps?

Of course, a child's presence would definitely be a visible reminder, but don't rule out the little triggers--for example, when your WS is dishonest or you discover another fact that was left out of the story or a song or a time of year or an event. Sometimes BS's get moody and don't know why until they realize what's going on--a trigger.

I agree that OM should be removed from your lives permanently, even if it means changing jobs or moving away. Dr.Harley recommends that so getting the affair and the OP out of the married couple's life is a definite first step toward recovery.

Good luck with the triggers tho. I'm sure you can find help and support from other BS's here.

Genetic Infidelity...

I see it as a married person uniting their DNA with someone other that their spouse (either by choice or by error) as the result of an affair. I was looking for a less volatile term than "cuckold."

For men, I think this is a significant issue, more so than women because women can always be positive that the child they carry is their child. We men can never really be sure that the child you carry is really ours, can we? We take it as a matter of trust.

I've noticed that women on this board would have a much easier time accepting an OC as long as the OW was not connected in any way. I think men more often see themselves as being "robbed" of their genetic legacy. I do applaud those men who have the heart to accept the child and raise it as their own. It goes against human nature, so I would categorize the ability of a man to do that as "supernatural." God bless them. But not every man could do it. I'm not sure that I could.

Low

Xray,

You might want to explore what the Harley's say about your situation:

What To Do When Spouse Pregnant with Lover's Child

Divorce is appropriate in some situations. Read this article carefully. Then, I think you should call Steve ASAP. In any event he recommends that you apply the policy of joint agreement to your decisions. You can read more about it under the "Basic Concepts" link in the title graphic.

Low

[ December 09, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]

wow, lots of advice, but that's what I came here for. I have been surprised at how few support my position though.

Let me try to address a few things.
1. OM knows about pregnancy, so keeping a secret is not an option. Doesn't matter if he did not know, I would not raise his child.

2. Dirtbag that he is, OM said he wants no part of OC.

3. She has not responded to my conditions. She has always been pro-choice, but previously it was a purely academic discussion.

4. To the person who asked how I would feel during the pregnancy if she was going to give up OC for adoption.....I won't deal with it. Either she goes away for the duration, or I do, but I will not sit around and watch another man's child growing in my wife's belly.

5. I had not thought about the legal implications, and will be getting a lawyer ASAP.

6. I accept that there will be other things that remind me of the A, but from my reading here and other places they will fade with time.

7. I never thought I would put up with an A, and am surprised I find I am willing to try to look past that.

8. My position is non-negotiable. His baby, or her husband.

9. If she chooses the OC over me, so be it, it was not meant to be. I am too young to be living my life with this situation.

To LynnG,
thank you for understanding I am the one who was betrayed and that my feelings do matter.
Ray

[ December 09, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: XRay ]

Xray,

As a husband who is currently about to give his 5 year old OC a bath---I can completely understand your situation. I would encourage you to consult a lawyer for this situation, because the child will be considered 'yours' until you prove otherwise (by dna testing).

If you are serious about wanting to attempt to salvage the marriage, then I would encourage you to make an appointment with Steve Harley for phone counseling (888-639-1639). Steve is terrific, and he coached me through my wife's affair and resulting pregnancy; and I give him a lot of credit for helping me get through this process with my marriage intact.

What Steve would probably do with you is to work towards a POJA decision with your wife regarding the marriage. You can obviously not entertain the thought of raising this child (and seeing as you have none with your wife, it's completely understandable). If you and your wife cannot POJA a suitable solution to the pregnancy, then I would suggest that you attempt to POJA a divorce (is it the "best" solution that you both can agree with)? If it's not, and you are stuck---Steve will help you manage the situation (Plan A, Plan B) in the best way that saves your love for your wire, until she's ready to deal with the situation in a way that you can deal with.

I'm sorry that you're facing this situation. Call Steve---you'll find that he's a terrific coach and he will not throw any options out for you, but he will do his best to fight for your marriage.

And as an aside, condition 8

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8. My position is non-negotiable.<hr /></blockquote>comes across as a selfish demand. A better phrase would be that you cannot imagine any situation that you would be enthusiastic about that includes this child in your future. You need to learn how to phrase yourself so that you don't kill any love your wife has for you. Being thoughtful and inflexible is much better than just being inflexible... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
 And as an aside, condition 8

<blockquote>quote:<hr />8. My position is non-negotiable.<hr /></blockquote>comes across as a selfish demand. A better phrase would be that you cannot imagine any situation that you would be enthusiastic about that includes this child in your future. <hr /></blockquote>K,
excellent point. So let me revise and I wanted to add another.

8. I cannot imagine in anyway a situation where I would agree to let this child be in my future.

9. I understand the OC is innocent. But so am I. As someone else said, there are families who would love the opportunity to raise this child. I say let them have it.

Ray,

i really do feel for you being in this position. Its hard as hell. You say that you will not accept OC. So your wife has the option of abortions or giving it up for adoption. Lets just say she does one of the two and you guys go on with her life. You will always hold the A against her, but jus thtink if she's going to hold it against you for having to get rid of her child??

Please do look into the leagal part of it. under the law since you are married this child is already legally considered yours. Check with a lawyer on what your rights are.

If she has the baby, OM will have no legal rights unless you sign off on the baby and she goes after him for child support.

Another option since you two have no children together is a divorce. In my opinion this a no win situation. Everyone involved is going to suffer.

ray,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />To LynnG,
thank you for understanding I am the one who was betrayed and that my feelings do matter.
<hr /></blockquote>that's not fair. i wouldn'tve started a thread for you if i didn't care and didn't think that others would too. offering our experiences and opinions (which is all they are... our opinions), even though different than your own, doesn't negate your feelings. not at all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4. To the person who asked how I would feel during the pregnancy if she was going to give up OC for adoption.....I won't deal with it. Either she goes away for the duration, or I do, but I will not sit around and watch another man's child growing in my wife's belly.<hr /></blockquote>i can see how you would feel like this, but i have a couple questions for you:

1. how are you and your wife supposed to heal and repair the damage done to your marriage if she's gone for nine months?

2. what if she does leave for the duration of her pregnancy, she does give the baby up (or have an abortion), you two get back together after nine months apart, but things unfortunately don't work out? she's left without you and without the baby she gave up for you.

ray, i'm really NOT trying to be judgemental. please, i'm the least likely person (ww) to be judging a person like you. but if you and your wife aren't talking about it (quote: "5. She has not responded to my conditions.") than maybe this will help you understand what's going through her head and why this is a decision that must be so hard for her to make.

it seems like some people took my post wrongly. like i was saying it was "wrong" for you to feel how you do. not so. i'm not typing this angrily or bitterly or anything like that... more sad. sad that anyone else has to go through this.

hoping tomorrow is better than today -

amy

My heart goes out to you Ray, and any other BS that's in this situation. You are entitled to your feelings after all this was dumped in your lap. You have a right to feel exactly the way you feel. You were the one betrayed. K. has a good point also.

XRay,

NO one here is nor should be telling you your feelings are wrong. Amethyst03 started this thread for you so you could get some input from others in this situation and investigate your options. Only YOU know what is right for you but hopefully, your final decisions will be after much soul searching. To offer you another solution does NOT mean we don't or won't support whatever you choose to do. We only want you to examine all alternatives so that when you DO make a decision, you do so with knowledge you checked all possible solutions.

{{{{Xray}}}}}

xray,,,,, i am so sorry to see you in this most uncomfortable situation. i know exactly how you are feeling.

i don't think and haven't read anyone's replies to this thread that did not respect your feelings. i don't want to get into a pro con abortion debate. i am certainly pro choice on this matter. but at the same time there ar other alternatives that should be explored.

your feelings of not wanting to watch our wife grow with om's child bring back some very negative reminders (triggers) for me. that and watching my wife in the delivery room were without a doubt the most painful days of my life.

when my wife finally came out and told me of her pregnancy with oc my first reactions were very much like your own. i thought that the best solution was abortion followed closely by adoption. we did get some counseling (although not with the harley's) which helped immensely. it did not change my mind on what i felt were the best solutions. my wife tried to have an abortion but left the clinic unable to go through with it. i was not involved with that. her and om went together before she confessed to her A. and she and i knew she would never be able to give up a child she carried to term.

i felt that the day she gave birth to oc that it was the final nail in the coffin of our marriage. as it turned out it wasn't.

you see my case was different then yours in the length of time we had been married, our ages in life, and our family together. for me not try would have upset many more people then myself.

i have to tell you that had my circumstances been different in any number of ways i most likely would have been divorced.

i understand your reactions and your viewpoint on the oc in your life. what i would suggest is for you to not only seek a good attorney but also get into some marriage counseling. i undersand that the harley's are great in these instances.

what mc did for me was help me to curb my anger so that i could make decisions with a level head. you see i already had the spoken with an attorney and had the divorce papers filled out.

now as funny as it may seem our oc has probably brought us closer togeher.

i wish you the best of luck with whichever road you choose to walk. pops

To all, especially Amy, I know you all want to help and though you may have advice I don't like, you are not trying to negate my feelings. Thank you.

Its been a tough week since I was hit with both the A and pregnancy.

I thought long and hard about the advice to get a lawyer, even did some research on the internet last night. You are all right, legally, I may indeed be considered this childs father by virtue of marriage.

I did something last night which may be counterproductive, but I really had not choice.

As I realized I needed a lawyer, it occured to me that I cannot afford one. Not knowing what to do or where to turn, I confided in my father, who can help me locate a lawyer and provide funds beyond my meager savings.

We had a great talk, as we always have. He is going to stand by me no matter what I do, but he asked, since I have not been married long and have no children, why would I even stay married to her?

He is making some calls today to locate a good lawyer. I am too tired and drained emotionally to do it myself.

I think he may be right. I don't have much invested in this M, and am young enough to start over without all the baggage.

As I have told this forum and I told my Dad last night, I can't raise that child. He agree's with that.
Ray

XRay,

I'm not sure if anyone has pointed you to this, but there is a Question and Answer letter (actually two together) than covers this type of situation on the website.

In it, you can find Dr. Harley quoting in the situation where a man discovers "early" that his sole daughter is not "his":

"There are many important issues to consider in deciding your future together. If your daughter were your only child, and if your wife were still in love with her ex-lover, who happened to be single and wanted to marry her, I would lean toward encouraging you to divorce. But since she is the mother of your two children, no longer loves her ex-lover, and wants to save her marriage, I would encourage you to remain married and raise all three children together."

I would encourage you again to seek out the phone counseling here. Steve would work with you to help sort out your feelings regarding trying to continue with the marriage. If you decide to do this---then he's the best damn coach you can have. And he won't push you or placate you to stay with the marriage (or accept the child). In fact, during my many sessions with him, the toughest he was with me was AFTER I had discovered my wife was pregnant and I was thinking about "accepting" the child. He gave me an ear full of cons---and then let me think about it for a couple of days before we had a follow-up session.

He'll look out for you, and your marriage. He's the best. 888-639-1639 for appointments. I don't get a referral fee---just the satisfaction of people using him and saying how terrific he is.

I'm glad you told your father. You need someone who loves you to suport you, no matter what. You deserve the empathy and concern right now.

I am also glad you looked at the legal aspects of this issue. It is so easy to get mired down in the emotional that the saga takes on a life of it's own. Then, when you decide that you might need some legal help,it is to late.

As for your marriage, at the end of the day, it is all up to you and what you want with your life.

Please don't feel bad about any choice you make. As you can tell, we are all different and have different beliefs and different wants and needs for our own lives.

You are hurting and probably in a little shock also. You need to take care of yourself and be sure you eat, exercise and get away from your thoughts for awhile. These are difficult times for you and you need to stay healthy no matter what the outcome. Find time and do something you enjoy to keep your spirits up.

You sound like a fine young man who was dealt a severe blow. Don't let her behavior keep you down. Actually, had I not had a child when my H put us in this situation, I would have walked away in a nano-second. We were married longer, and had a family already. I had filed for divorce the very next day actually. I packed him up and told him to leave. But we worked it out, but we did not have to have OC staring us in the face while we decided. We choose NC since it was best for our family and marriage. Had he insisted on contact, I doubt I would have stayed either. There is only so much a person has to take. There is also a fine line between being accepting and being a doormat, and each person has a different line.

Best of luck to you know matter what you choose to do.

lynn,

i have to respectfully disagree with something in your last post...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There is also a fine line between being accepting and being a doormat...<hr /></blockquote>i bet if you were to ask k, pops, autumnday's h or tigger's h, if they feel like doormats for accepting their oc, they'd say no. i don't like to put words into others mouths, but i think it's pretty safe to say that when k or autumnday's little guys, or grace, or abbi look at them with eyes full of love, that "doormat" is the furthest thing from their minds.

i know that my h doesn't feel like a doormat. liam makes him feel like the king of the world, and neither of us can imagine life without him. even with all the hell and heartache we went through last year, he do it all over again to see liam's face light up when he gets home from work, and to know that the smile on liam's face each morning is for him.

ray, this post isn't intended to make you feel guilty about your feelings or the choice you have to make, it is simply in response to what lynn said. sorry lynn. couldn't let that one slide.

amy

I'm so sorry you have to go through this. I'm glad you told your father and he can help you through this, emotionally as well as financially.

Although I no longer agree w/ "divorce", when I first found out about H A, I would have split right then and there too if I didn't have BC to think of. I'm glad now, though, that we could keep it together. We now have C w/ H OC, it's very hard and I don't recommend it.

BUT since it is your W and OM wants nothing to do w/ C, technically, it would be easier since C would be in your home ALL the time, none of the back and forth nonsense. Just a thought to consider.

I don't blame you for anything you are thinking or feeling right now. It is a good point someone made about your W being gone for 9 months though. How would that work? Adoption is the best course of action, in my opinion.

I bet W is just hating herself right now. Risking everything for what? It may be all for nothing now, she might just lose EVERYTHING and with that in mind, I bet she will want to keep OC so she will have "something" to hold on to and love. There are no guarantees that her marriage will survive, she definately doesn't have OM, even more so adoption is the best solution so that OC has a 2 parent family.

I'm so sorry you have to deal w/ this crap!!!!!

Just to clarify, I don't think you might be considered the father (for legal reasons) you WILL be considered the father. C are automatically considered to be a product of the marriage unless proven otherwise.

I really hope you can find it in your heart to make this marriage work. You have no responsibility to, your wife made that choicealready when she broke her covenant/vow/promise already, but it CAN work. It is not easy @ all and I bet there are BS that sometimes wish they would have just called it quits.

You don't deserve all this unasked for baggage @ all. What is your wife's thoughts right now? Does she want the marriage? Did she confess because she was sorry or because she suddenly found herself caught & all alone? I bet she was really scared to tell you about pg. How did she think you'd react? How did she HOPE you'd react? What did she want from you?

Take care of yourself. I know it's such a hard time right now. It's like your caught right in the middle of this huge whilrwind. It's insane!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Amethyst03:
 ray,

[QUOTE]2. what if she does leave for the duration of her pregnancy, she does give the baby up (or have an abortion), you two get back together after nine months apart, but things unfortunately don't work out? she's left without you and without the baby she gave up for you.

<hr /></blockquote>A good point. Let me offer a different slant on this, but along the same train of thought. Suppose XRay stays with his W and agrees to raise the OC. Then, unfortunately, things don't work out. Now he would be without his W, but paying CS for the next 18 years for a child who is not his.
Michael

[ December 10, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

XRay, your father sounds like a loving, wise, and supportive father, when he said he would stand by your decision.

Please get counseling, and an attorney.

I did not mean to sound judgemental. I was only giving my opinion on things to think about. I did not mean to offend you.

Your father has a very good point. In my case, we were married 23 years, and together 3 years before that. Our families were intermingled, we had children, we had history.

My d-day was in 1996. I found out by accident that my H had anOW and 2 OC's, and paying CS. All without me even having a clue.

Today the year is 2003. I am glad I stayed. I love him.

The bottom line is how much you love your wife.

So sorry it hurts so bad.

ember

Let me clairfy what I mean as the line.

Each person has a line that can't be crossed.

For some, any affair, be it one night stand or whatever, is to much so they divorce. And this isn't even with an OC.

For others, when an OC has been born, I can forgive and forget, but choose not to have the OC as part of our family. That is the line for me.

Then there are those who have contact with oc an have no problem with that, and even come to love oc.

Then there are those who have oc living with them.

Each person had a different line. I have friends who think I was crazy to stay with my H since he had oc. THAT is what I think about the line and being a doormat. Some people think I am a doormat for staying in the marriage at all. So everyone is different. It took me a while to figure out where my line was. Just how much could/would I take. It is not a judgement. Each person is different. What newbies have to be carefull of is giving to much of themselves to apease the situation, thereby sacrificing themselves in the process. Example would be accepting contact to ease tensions, to keep the marraige going. How long before the built up hurt and anger comes the surface? Being a patsy will hurt you in the long run. Hence the different lines of acceptance we all have. Also, highlighting the POJA that is so important. Both have to be enthusiastic or one is going to be put in the role of patsy.

Dad spent most of the afternoon looking for a lawyer. He found a good one and spent a bit talking to him. I am going to my Dad's for dinner tonight. Dad makes a mean steak.

My brother is coming over also. We are going to bring him into this and see what he thinks.

Dad set up an appointment with the lawyer for Friday afternoon. Evidently, I am in a good state (GA) for contesting paternity.

Plus, I know who the OM is, so that's a good thing regarding contesting paternity. Also, better to contest it early (as in now) than later, even if I decided to raise the OC.

But, I have thought more about it, and I am sure I cannot raise another man's child. So, I guess the ball is in her court.

Spoke to W on the phone today, and she is still totally undecided and unprepared to make a decision.

I suggested she get some advice from her family as I am from mine. We'll see.

Heading out to Dad's. He suggested that I spend the night, and tomorrow, after W goes to work, we got get some of my stuff out of the apartment, and I live at home til this is resolved.

Thanks for all the concern. Will check in later, or tomorrow.
Ray

The option of "therapeutic" abortion will be eliminated past a certain number of weeks.

Do you know how many weeks pregnant she is?

Also, is there some possibility you may have fathered this child?

Pep

Gosh,
It's a sad situation, indeed, especially with all this decision-making happening to you during the holidays. The holidays may forever be a reminder to you of your most difficult period in your marriage. If you feel that your wife has engaged in a dealbreaker for you, like LynnG said and "crossed that line" then do what you have to do.

However, this IS Marriage Builders so we are going to try to encourage you to hang in there.

Perhaps your dad would be willing to help you get a little phone counseling with Steve Harley? It's probably much cheaper than the attorney???

Also, like Pepper said, is there any chance at all that this baby could possibly be yours?

It's been a busy few days.

Meeting with my lawyer went very well. The first thing he asked was the same thing a few have asked here. Am I sure the baby is not mine.

The answer is yes. I am positive. He asked a few questions about why I am sure, but once I answered them he just said ok, let's do what we can to protect you.

I talked to my W again when I went to the apartment to pick up a few things. I tried to not be so abrupt about it, but I again emphasized that I cannot imagine a situation where I can allow this child in my life.

She said that she cannot give up her child.

Even though I was somewhat prepared for that, from what I have read here, I am still disappointed that she would chose another man's child over me.

But, it makes my decision easier. I cannot live like that. I asked her to think about it, that abortion is not the only option, but though she said she would think about it, I don't think she will change her mind.

The OM is an old boy friend of hers. I was always leary of him. I somewhat suspect that she hopes by keeping the baby she has a chance to get him back.

Hopefully she will think about other options, but from what I have read on Marriage Builders, given that the A did not die a natural death, and that it has not been long since it ended, I am sure she still has strong feelings for him.

As I said, I have moved out, and unless I hear something different from her soon, will press ahead with a divorce.
Ray

Ray,

My heart goes out to you. As a mom of four children, all born within my marriage, I can say tht your wife thinks of this child as HER baby, not so much as THEIR baby. That's what makes this whole thing so hard.

While it is legitimate for you to be pained because you feel she is "choosing OM's child over me," it is just as legitimate for your wife to feel pained that you are forcing her to choose between HER child and her marriage. Right now, whether she still has feelings for OM or not (and it wouldn't be a surprise if she did), that might be a choice she can't make. Just as you can't make the choice to raise the child.

But given time, and proper counseling, one or both of you may come to see things differently in the future. There might be a way. It is just impossible to imagine that right now, I know.

I am glad you are getting legal help early, and support from your family. But your best bet for making a choice that you can live with for the rest of your life is to go into marital counseling with a counselor who is skilled in handling matters of infidelity and OC. Family tend to be protective of loved ones at any cost, and sometimes they can't be objective enough to be of concrete help. You might need more help, is what I am saying. Geez, after all I've been through (and it didn't include an OC), if you were my brother and came to me and told me this tale, I'd be walking you to the nearest court to file. But it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for you. See my point?

God bless.

I have to disagree with Snowbell. Assuming you are certain that you are not the father, I would file for divorce and never look back. You are young, you have no children with WW, you don't have much time invested in the M, you don't own a house with WW, you don't have much money which would be an issue. I may feel differently about it if you had a history with her and other children were involved. But that's not the case. You are too young to take all this on when you have another option.

I know this is a Marriage Builders forum, but sometimes, even according to the Harleys, it is best not to continue in a M.

Michael

[ December 14, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

I'd like to add one more thing. In time you may well see things differently and decide you want your M and are willing to raise OC. I would still recommend you do what you can legally to protect yourself. If M does not work out you don't want to be financially responsible for OC. If M does work out and you want to be a father to OC, you can always adopt him/her, and then you will be the father.

Michael

What are all the legal ramifications? I spoke to a lawyer about 1 mth ago and he told me they couldn't get to our retirement but that they could get cs. I took it he meant CS from my h income. He said that the OC could get retirement if nothing was put in the will saying upon h's death money would not go to any other living heirs. (Has H done a danged thing about it? NOOOOO) Anyway...

Although my h is in lala land and believes the ow that she will never ask for a dime or help, I know in my heart that 1) there will come a time when she needs something 2) there will come a time when the child finds out and 3)frankly I feel he needs to meet his responsibilities to this human being that will be living, breathing and needing come March.

The OW refuses prenatal tests and I know if she comes for money OR the state (very probable in my mind as she is a single mother and comes from a destitute family.) comes for money that then a test will be done.

I have had "helpful" people around me warning me of all sorts of stuff. The latest has been "protecting" myself financially. They say I must move quickly so they (OW and OC) can't get what I have worked so hard for. I know this is coming out greedy and all but I haven't worked for 20 years at two and three jobs at a time to have MY money taken and used for h's mistakes. I accept (although H is clueless) that his money will be going where he doesn't want it. I just want what is mine. Half of all our retirement and 1/2 of our stocks. I don't deserve to lose that. Frankly I feel I have lost enough.

If your husband has not done a thing get to a laywer and start drawing up a new will, then you can do it. Each state is different. You need to clearly state (if oc is his) that you/he are aware of oc yet choose to leave him/her nothing. Otherwise OW can say you forgot and fight the will.

We have all property, etc in my name. So OW really can't come after us now. We have refined and protected for 16 years. OC would get nothing upon H demise. You could also have trusts set up, with you as trustee. We have land that is in our childrens names, on trust accounts. I have incorporated myself, with a Fed Tax ID number (nominal cost, but effective and LEGAL), and many of our purchases over the years have been my purchases through that corporation. Obviously, a laywer is necessary to make sure that all laws are followed.

But you do need to change your will ASAP.

OW are by nature self serving. If your H will not draw the papers up, you do it.

[ December 14, 2003, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: LynnG ]

I agree. Within 1 month of my d-day in 1996, H put everything in my name only. It still is. We are married 31 yrs. now. We love each other, but it took a lot of work.

Do get advice from an attorney to protect your assets.

Please let me find out how you are doing.

ember

Michael in Dallas,

I didn't say whether Ray should divorce his wife or not. That is his deicision to make. I am not against that as an option, nor do I promote it. Only Ray knows the relationship he has with is wife and only he can decide if there can be a future for them.

I am only suggesting that he take his time to consider all sides, including his wife's pain and viewpoint, before making a final decision. And at this early date he is in no shape to do that.

I think it is the quickest decision, especially in Ray's situation, to run for the hills (who wouldn't consider that first, just as Ray is doing?). I just want him to make sure it is the correct decision for him, that's all. The final decision has to come from his own heart and soul, after he has searched both thoroughly.

Xray,

To back up Snowbelle's post, while I'd encourage you to continue working with the lawyer, I'd also encourage you to call the Harley's and spend a little time working on the marriage counseling. It's not clear that your wife and you have "enthusiastically agreed" to a divorce at this point, and I'd urge you to get some marriage counseling to help you work that through. In fact, feedback you would get from the counseling will help you heal as you move forward---whether that is in your marriage, or with someone else.

Snowbelle,
I tend to agree. They have not enthusiastically agreed to a divorce, but I think that's putting the cart before the horse. I think the first decision that has to be made regards the OC. If Ray cannot enthusiastically agree to keep the OC, then any further discussion or decsions are meaningless. I would recommend counseling. But, on the other hand, I honestly feel given his age and situation, likely the best course of action is to press on with his life.
Michael

Most of the couselors I have talked to have told me to work on the marriage first, that the coming oc is just "out-there". They say they can see that we love each other very much, which we do. Frankly I think the oc is a very big "out-there",... people kill me.

I asked h to move out last Tuesday and for three days he lived in his truck. He couldn't get an apt through some friends of ours. He is back as of Friday and things are going okay. Frankly I don't think he tried very hard, we have a bunch of motels around and some that have long term stay rates. But I do think it gave him somewhat of a wake up call. For how long I don't know. I hope to god things don't get as bad a last week, but I don't think I can get the balls to tell him to leave again that was so hard. Why I worry about hurting his feeling I have no clue. I think I will have to leave if there is a next time, and I dont' think that is right since I have had no choice in what he had done. Sometimes I just get to the point of whatever, I don't care, I am sick of the "drama". I am sick of the worrying, the not trusting. I always have lived where I never seconded guessed him in what he says, does, where he goes, who he talks to and I am sick of suspecting and worrying and hurting. I am sick of pretending I don't hurt to my very core. I am sick of trying to keep myself together.

Lord I must be on a big pity party tonight, sorry guys!

I don't know what a counselor can do. I have thought about it and thought about it, and I cannot raise that child. So unless a counselor can help her come to a decision to give up OC, I don't see the point.

It's not just the betrayal. It's not just the fact that it's another man's baby.

She had always insisted that we wait to have kids. I was in no hurry, so fine. But she insisted that we wait til we were older and I had finished college.

Even if we were a bit drunk after a party or something, she insisted I use protection.

Now all the sudden she wants a kid? With him it was ok to take a chance??

Add to that who the OM is. He is an old boyfriend she dated off and on during high school and college. He always treated her like crap, which is why she kept breaking up with him.

I always figured she was ready to move on to someone who would treat her well when she met me. Guess not.

She called me last night, asked me to come over and talk. But I can't even bear the thought of looking at her, knowing OM's baby is growing inside her. It makes me sick to think about it.

My family is being very supportive. Dad wants to be sure I am protected, but will support me if I decide to stay with her. My brother thinks I should leave her, but is open to other possibilities.

Oddly, the most insistant that I divorce her is my brother's wife.

I am still hoping she will realize that OC will be too much for our marriage to overcome.

I guess I can understand a reluctance to have an abortion, though that would be my first choice. But, she could put it up for adoption. We don't have to raise this kid.

I'm going to call her today to talk some more. We'll see how it goes.
Ray

Ray I am not sticking up for your wife at all. I am sort of in the same boat as you, as my h got the ow pg and he has never wanted kids, I would have probably had one if he had shown interest, but I knew it would be "all me" raising the child and I didn't know if I wanted to sacrific "all" for a child.

But I feel I need to warn you of something. I think it's important for her to know that you don't want this baby and will not except it, but I would not pressure her into abortion or adoption. This will only turn her against you and again, you the betrayed, become the bad guy.

In one point I am fortunate as my husband wants absolutely nothing to do with the coming OC but my heart is telling me what kind of man is this to dump on an innocent child. If proven it's his, he needs to face up to his responsibilities not just financially but also emotionally to that child. Kids have it hard enough but if they know a biological parent wants nothing to do with them it causes emotional damage. At one moment in a heated discussion h told me that he doesn't want anything to do with child, as he wants me (Personally I think that is a guilt ploy to me) Now comes my decision...How much can I take. How much do I want to deal with...hard decision isn't it?

xray,

Hurtnconfused makes a very good point. You have stated your reluctance to raise his child. You have the call to file for divorce. So you really have no need to demand, suggest, encouage, or hint at what she does with the baby. Just as it was her call to have an affair with OM, it is her call with regard to OM's baby.

She makes decisions, then you make decisions.

What I am going to say is not even a SUGGESTION. It is my thinking but I thought I would offer this to you. I am guessing if the OM had been some man previously unknown to your W and you, I suspect if it were me, I would be inclined to give it a go. But, the affair was with old boy friend, it will always be HIS child, and you know that she has a very big weakness for him. So it makes it more likely that she will cross paths with him again, especially if the baby is in your life.

Given the circumstances I think I would feel as you do. In other circumstances I might well feel differently.

Having said that, I would deeply hope that something would change your views and your W's views so that you two could raise this child and be a happy couple and parents.

xray, this stuff is hard to even read about. You and your W have my deepest sympathy for having to live through it. Rest assured she will feel pain from this no matter what you decide or she decides. There are no painless ways out of this mess for either of you. All you can do, is decide which of the available choices is the best for you.

I wish for you strength, calmness, and the gift of great insight.

God Bless,

JL

HurtnConfused,
I am not pressuring her to do anything. I have stated my position and have left the rest up to her. I've told her I am willing to work on the M despite her A, but am not willing to raise another man's child.

Just Learning,
would it be different if OM were not an old boyfriend? Maybe. I doubt it, but understand your point.

You are right though. She has a history with him. He lives relatively nearby. It will always be his child and I think the chances of NC with him are slim.

But, I don't think it would change how I feel. I did not want children yet, and will sure as heck not take all that on for another man's child.

The OC issue aside, I had not thought much about who the OM is, and the consequences of that til last night.

My SIL asked me what I thought the odds were that she can stay away from OM in the future, given their history.

Add to that having a child together, and I think she has a good point. The odds of future entanglements are fairly high.

Back to a question that caused me to post on MB in the first place. I still don't understand why I feel like I am being told I am wrong to want to give up OC.

If I were a young BW, and my young WH was going to have a baby with OW, no one would question my not wanting to have the OC in my life.

Why is it not fair for me to not want OC in my life? I bet if you were to ask 100 guys my age what they would do, over 90% would not even consider staying with WW, let alone raising OC.

I can't understand why this is happening to me. I didn't do anything wrong. I feel like I've been a good husband.

I don't make much money, but am trying to fix that. I am very busy between working and going to college, but that will not last forever.

How could this happen? Did I just pick the wrong woman to marry? If so, this seems like a stiff punishment for a decision of the heart.
Ray

[ December 16, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: XRay ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by XRay:

Back to a question that caused me to post on MB ni the first place. I still don't understand why I feel like I am being told I am wrong to want to give up OC.

If I were a young BW, and my young WH was going to have a baby with OW, no one would question my not wanting to have the OC in my life.

Why is it not fair for me to not want OC in my life? I bet if you were to ask 100 guys my age what they would do, over 90% would not even consider staying with WW, let alone raising OC.<hr /></blockquote>Ray I don't think anybody here is telling you that you're wrong in not wanting to have the OC in your life. What they have been trying to convey to you is to let your emotions cool down a bit before you make the life altering decision of ending your marriage. They don't want you to find yourself divorced and regretting your decision later on.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I can't understand why this is happening to me. I didn't do anything wrong. I feel like I've been a good husband.

I don't make much money, but am trying to fix that. I am very busy between working and going to college, but that will not last forever.

How could this happen? Did I just pick the wrong woman to marry? If so, this seems like a still punishment for a decision of the heart.
Ray <hr /></blockquote>Bad things happen to good people all the time otherwise there would be no injustice in this world, wouldn't it?

We talk about the 'fog' that a WS is in when he or she is in an affair, yet we forget that when we were courting our future spouse, we also were in a fog of our own. That fog, often causes us to ignore huge red flags (lying, dishonesty, thoughtlesness, selfishness) about our loved one that other people would immediately notice. But even if there wasn't any red flags waving prior to marriage, almost anybody can fall into an affair if he or she crosses marital boundaries like spending time alone with an member of the opposite sex especially an old lover.

What do you need to do in the future? make sure you convey to your loved one (W or other) your non negotiable boundary of BOTH following The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage. as a condition for marriage.

I agree, do not made any permanent decisions at this emotional time. This time will pass, where you will be more emotionally rationale. You can divorce anytime. What do you gain if you hurry?
It's the pain we want to kill, not neccessarily our marriage.

ember

No Ray, your not wrong, I am having those same feelings. Frankly I think I am harder on myself about what a looser I would be to hold a "grudge" against an innocent human being. If I bail that is what I feel I would be doing. I have always placed others before my feelings or desires. Now I am down to the wire since I have been re-evaluating myself I am now finally trying to figure out what I want. But I don't know if I can really go through this new life I didn't choose, or if I am still holding onto a life I thought I had and still want so bad.

entire post deleted due to the wrongheadedness of the author... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ December 16, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]

xray,

Like others have said,I think you are misinterpreting what you are being told. The short, quick, normal decision is to divorce her and move on. It also is very likely the best decision for you given you have no children and are not ready for children.

Further, the presence of the old boy friend who lives near you and who is the father of your W's child makes it a very very difficult situation for you and yes your W.

What I am suggesting along with everyone else is to slow down and let the pain subside. Yes, move on with your life, but don't make decisions you don't need to make right now. When it is time you will know what the right decision is.

I would also say under NO circumstance allow anyone to "guilt" you into accepting this child. You have every right to walk away from it as it is the product of your W and her OM. You have the option of accepting it because you are married to your W.

It is just what it says an option. No more no less. So take your time. You have options, your W does not, her OM does not. OM will or will not be stuck with CS and/or raising this child based on YOUR decision. Your W can decide many things, but she cannot decide for you to be in her live. So how she lives from now on is subject to YOUR decision.

You control much more than you realize, hence the caution from the people here to go slow and make sure you are making a decision that best suits you and that you are most comfortable with. Once, you make it, I would like to suggest to you that you NEVER go back and say "what if". That is also what people are trying to get you to, no "what if's".

So take your time, dig deep within you, talk with your W, your family, clergy, whatever. Get ALL opinions, but whatever decision you make should be based on the most and best data you can collect AND what is in your heart. If you do that you can have no regrets about the decision.

That is what I believe most of us are striving for in your case. For you to be able to look back when you are my age and KNOW you looked at it from all sides, considered all opinions, talked to whoever you could, AND then made the best decision you could. If you can do that when you are 50+++ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> years old, you will have done well.

God Bless,

JL

One thing to point out, just because the OM lives close by is no garuntee that he would cause problems. My H XOW lives within 2 miles of us. We have no problems with her & H has never run into her or OC.

Very well put JustLearning

You have every right in the world to feel as you do. You are like many many many many people who do not want to have any contact with oc whatsoever. Don't feel bad. I am totally for no contact with the oc.

I feel bad for men (again) in this situation. The woman, once she gets pregnant, gets to make all the decisions that effect so many others and these types of women could care less who they hurt, they only think of themselves. Others be dammed. The father sounds like he doesn't want this child, you certainly can't be expected to bend to her wishes. Why be used?

I know this is marriage builders. But in your case, I think a divorce would probably be for the best. Your young, you have your whole life ahead of you. Go out and live it. There would be no shame at your feet for leaving a woman who gets herself knocked up by another man.

Lord I don't understand how these selfish people can even sleep at night. They must be totally empty inside. To assume that others should have to accomodated their mistakes at any cost is simply beyond comprehension.

Your sister in law sounds like most women, when they learn a loved one has been hurt. She does not want to see you hurt or humiliated. Your father and brother want what is best for you. Sounds like you have alot of love and decency around you. Why stay in a situation that will be nothing but heartache, embarrassment, anger and humiliation when you can probably go and meet a nice young woman with moral fiber and character. You have not been with your wife very long, and have no children or much history. Why force it?

Lord I wish I could give you advice on how this all passes. But, we had the holidays without children, the ones when I was carrying our first child, the exictement of building the nursery, the birth. All those firsts. We had a long and deep relationship. We rebuilt it, but I doubt I would have stayed had he wanted to have any contact with the oc. Lucky for our family, my husband put us first and never looked back. He considers the OC an obligation and that is that.

You deserve to be happy and loved. I think working this out is hard enough, but it requires lots of time, and effort. What helps you get to the point of accepting is reliving the memories and love that is the foundation of the marriage. The early days, the first home, the first dog, baby, etc. Those are what lays the blocks for the foundation of life, love and family. When there isn't much there, how can you rebuild? Love isn't just great sex with candles and bubble baths. It is so much more. It is the days painting houses, collapsing in each others arms of exhaustion. It is laying in bed all day reading papers and watching football together. It is taking care of each other when you are sick. It is walking through a store and seeing the stereo that you just know he would love. Or him knowing that in High School you had a stuffed dolphin collection so he buys you a charm braclet with a dolphin on it to remember your best friend who died in a car accident. That is what love and marriage is. It is a complete life. Not just one piece. It isn't just sex. It isn't just work. It isn't just being parents. It is the whole. That is where you find the basics to rebuild a marriage. Personally, and this is only my opinion, if you don't have that, and she is pregnant with another mans child, how do you rebuild? I would say the same thing to a young wife in the same situation. Marriage is so much more then some people think. From what I read here, they think of marriage as one long orgasim, with flowers and sunset beaches. That is almost to cheesy when it comes to real love, real romance, real heart to heart love.

You have every right to your feelings. And no matter what we all think, say and do, we all respect each other and their feelings

<blockquote>quote:<hr />my heart is telling me what kind of man is this to dump on an innocent child. If proven it's his, he needs to face up to his responsibilities not just financially but also emotionally to that child. <hr /></blockquote>His only obligation is financially. If he doesn't support the child emotionally, he is not "dumping" on it. Would you rather have him grudgingly and resentfully shuttling the kid back and forth for unwanted weekend visits?

If a parent does not want a child, the child is better off without that parent...not being forced on the parent because of some wrong sense of "obligation."

When an OW decides to have the baby, she is knowingly bringing it into a single parent home. That's her choice and her responsibility.

Thank you garden bunny. I know too that it can be very hard on kids to be shuffled back and forth, I have seen it alot with friends. I need to keep that in mind. I need to try and let it go and see what time will do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LynnG:
 When there isn't much there, how can you rebuild? <hr /></blockquote>LynnG,
thanks for putting into words what I have been trying to express. Indeed, where there is not much of a foundation, it is hard to rebuild. Probably best to start over. In my case, I have a long history with my WW. Memories, children, a house, etc. Though it has been, and still is hard, I can't just throw it all away. But, absent children and with a shorter M, I would have divorced her in a minute.

Ray, do what you feel is best, but as Lynn said, don't force it.....one way or the other. You will figure out what is best.
Michael
Me 40
FWW 39
M 19
Two Sons
A began Jan 01
D Day Jun 01
In MC, IC

[ December 17, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]

Sorry X-ray, I didn't mean to give the impression that you had to accept this OC or that you were wrong for not wanting to.

As an OC (and a BW) I was just tyring to point out that IF you chose to raise this child, that the normal feelings between a father and child can (often) develop. I know that they did for my father and me. My dad was in your shoes. Married only for 3 or 4 months when my mother asked for a divorce and returned to an old boyfriend. HOWEVER, my dad felt very differently than you did. He wanted and was ready for children. He adored my mother and worshiped the ground she walked on. He also has always found forgiveness to be easy for him--the only trait I seem to have inherited from him--he, he. (That's only funny because he isn't my bio-dad.)

In your shoes, I think I would have opted for divorce also. You are young and newly married. I also think that an affair with an ex-lover is more difficult to overcome. It may be that they never really separated emotionally and the odds of this happening again may be high.

In my case, we were married 18 years when I learned of his affair and we were in the middle of adopting three children from Russia. Had I divorced (my first thought) three young innocent kids would have stayed in an orphanage only to be put out on the streets at age 16. (I am not criticizing the Russian social services system--we don't do any better by our own children here in America. Both systems need improvement.) Had I killed him (my second thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I would have been in jail and the kids would have been in the same situation. My choice to stay and rebuild was tied into years of history together and the lives of three young kids. I am glad I stayed although I think it was the harder of the two options.

Everyone is just saying slow down. I kept saying to myself "there is nothing I can do in divorce court today that I can't do in a year if the situation isn't any better." In your case I would chose a much shorter deadline, leaving yourself right up until shortly before the birth of the child. You would still be able to disentangle yourself from being named the child's legal father and you will have calmed down enough to be certain that divorce is absolutely the best choice for you. Marriages made in haste often have bad consequences and so do divorces made in haste. Life-altering decisions should be made slowly and with as clear a mind as possible.

Meanwhile, it sounds like you have great people around you who love and care for you. Sink your roots deep and let them feed and heal you.

Prayers for healing,
MJ

LynnG~

I have sat silent so many times after reading several of your posts since Sept. You have such good and practical advice, that I figured to point out your harshness was pointless. Besides, others did that many a time anyway.

After reading your following statements this morning I decided it was time to write and tell you I am so sick and tired of your generalizations.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The woman, once she gets pregnant, gets to make all the decisions that effect so many others and these types of women could care less who they hurt, they only think of themselves. Others be dammed. The father sounds like he doesn't want this child, you certainly can't be expected to bend to her wishes. Why be used?
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Lord I don't understand how these selfish people can even sleep at night. They must be totally empty inside. To assume that others should have to accomodated their mistakes at any cost is simply beyond comprehension.

<hr /></blockquote>I know there are many manipulative, downright nasty women out there, whether they be OW or WW, but there are also many truly remorseful women as well. While neither type of woman cares about others while in the A, the ladder, after making the biggest mistake of their life, DO CARE about others being hurt, they DO think of others besides themselves. They DON'T have the attitude of others be damned.

Granted, a WW gets to make the decision of keeping OC or not, but the H DOES get to decide if he is staying or leaving the M. As well it should be.

Did I miss the part where x-ray said his W wants him to bend to her wishes? Last I read, she is still being pretty silent.

I fully knew the day I told my H of possible OC could be the day my M was over. My H had that rite. I honestly didn't know what his decision would be upon such news. I told him it was his rite to leave me at the curb, and that I would accept his decision. I told him that I DIDN'T expect him to do anything that would accomodate my mistake. I told him I would give the OC up for adoption. I told him he could walk away, head high, with a totally clear conscience, as he did NOTHING wrong. I told him he could go to his family and friends, telling them what a slut I was so they would know H was in NO WAY to blame for the divorce.

I was a selfish person, and I didn't sleep at night. I began sleeping at night, when my H forgave me.

You mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that this is the real world, not a fairytale. I submit to you that in the real world, there DO exist living, breathing, REMORSEFUL WS and FORGIVING BS who BOTH equally love the OC, and are living a life that is much better than any fairytale!

Please stop putting all former cheats in the same category. Many are NOT totally empty, but people who made a monumental mistake and are now truly remorseful. Many regret beyond words, the pain and suffering they have brought upon those they love. ALL are human beings, and if it weren't for the death and resurrection of the One who's birth many celebrate next week, ALL would be condemned to hell, and that sadly would include BS.

Take good care.

~autumnday

[ December 17, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]

Autumnday,

I am very harsh in my views of those who cheat and create such pain and turmoil to others. So what is the shock to you?

The woman IS IN CHARGE once she is pregnant. The father of the child, if he wishes for an abortion/adoption has 100% no right to say "no I do not want this child" but the woman does. If her lover or her husband both don't want that child, she can still force it into their lives: forcing lover to pay for 18 years and if her husband doesn't want it, HER decision alters his life with divorce or a child under his roof. Either way, it is her decision. Disagree all you want.

I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? What I am saying is the second they choose to have the child, when virtually everyone involved would prefer abortion, her husband,the father,maybe the fathers wife, etc. and she still chooses to have it, is when she is being selfsih. Everyone else be dammed.

Oh and for the record, your affair was not a mistake. I know we all, myself included use that word. But it is wrong. There was no mistake about it. You planned and carried out your well thought out deception without care of respect for your spouse. THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake.

As for bringing in Jesus, you might also want to read the bible where it states that divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage.

I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry.

As for this poor man, he is new to this. He is confused and hurt. I would hate to see him feel that he has to behave in a certain politically correct way. This man has feelings and he has a right to them. HE is the injured party here, not his wife. HER SILENCE is deafining isn't it? HE is the one who wants his marriage,just not the OC. What is so wrong with that?

Oh, and your opinion of me and my harshness is noted, it hardly tears me up, as you must know.

Good day.

Lynn - Once again I offer my sorrow for your pain. Only Jesus can heal this deep hurt and He will if you choose to allow Him in your heart. That being said, I once again see you referencing abortion as a positive alternative. Adoption is the best option if the child is unwanted. Why penalize another innocent life because of the selfishness of someone else? Your suggestions to eradicate the child will result in what? To eliminate all signs of the affair? No way - the guilt and self-condemnation remains. To bring closure to the BS? Sorry - the taking of an innocent life will only add more sorrow. It would appear you are consciously or subconsciously tranferring the sin of the perpetrators unto the baby. The baby had no voice in the decision to commit adultery and it certainly has no voice in the decision whether or not to grant it life. If it did, what do you think it's response would be? Lynn - supposed you were born as a result of extramarital or premarital sex. Would you now, as an adult, make the decision to terminate your life? This child will be a special person to someone and bring enrichment to their lives. Why would you deny them that right just to fulfill your desire for revenge or justification? I am praying that the Lord will soften your heart and set you free from your apparent bitterness and unforgiveness.

Ray, yourself, and many others have legitimate feelings in a very sensitive issue. That is understandable. Innocent lives have been touched, but not necessarily ruined or destroyed. Time, prayer, and support heal many wounds. The baby is innocent, also, but unlike the adults involved the child cannot make decisions about it's future.

Your views on abortion are your own, and I respect that. I do however, believe in abortion. That arguement will go on forever.

I see so many people on here who are lost and confused. Then being told that the only way to live their lives is to bury their pain, bury their thoughts and feelings all to accomodate others. So many people believe that once the child is here, that the BS has to suck it up and accomodate everyone. Pushing their own wishes and needs aside as if they were wrong to have any. I don't believe that in the year 2003 that people are still expected to sacrifice themselves. I find that horrid.

Do I blame the OC? Not anymore then I blame my own children for their fathers affair. Which is none.

And yes,I do get angry that others think that a BS, the family and even a MM are wrong, mean, etc. if they choose NC with the OC. It is absurd. There is nothing wrong at all, with a family deciding on what is best for them. To many people here make it seem like it is worse then the affair itself. That lies the blame on the shoulders of people who had nothing to do with the affair in the first place. The faithfull spouse and children did not create this, and once again, should not be expected to clean up the mess.

You, assume I am hurting since I am telling people they are ok to shout out their hurt. To not deny their feelings and to listen to their hearts, but use their heads. I am some how hurting since I am telling these people that they don't have to do what makes it easier on others.
But to think of themselves at this time? Seems odd to me. I will always and forever side with the faithfull spouse on this issue. I will always and forever believe in them and support what it is that they feel they need. I will always and forever let them know that they are ok no matter what it is they feel or think. That they are ok to think and feel whatever they want. That if this man wishes his wife would abort the oc, that is ok too. It does not make him bad or wrong. He has a right to express his feelings.

I think the biggest mistake that can be made is to say, ok, your forgiven, lets pretend this didn't happen. I will have contact and fall in love, or I will raise this oc, and pretend it is mine. Talk about living in denial. That will explode one day.

I am sickend that people are in this position, I feel for them. They are shell shocked, numb and not certain as to what is going on. I would rather be harsh and point out the reality then to sugar coat it and leave them helpless. They do have a voice, they can and should use it. If not now, when? Should they be told to sit back and let everything blow apart? Do nothing? Pretend the child is his and not tell anyone to avoid the humiliation? Then what, it will go away? Come on, that is a recipe for disaster down the road. Honesty is the absolute only way out of this mess. And if you can't be honest with yourself and your spouse at this time, what is the point of the marriage at all? If the rebuilding is going to be on more lies, what would be the point?

Geeesh.

So, no, sorry, but I am not hurting. I want to help these people who are lost and scared and confused. I want to empower them, to stand up for themselves cause nobody else will. I have been in the trenches of this and the only way out is right down the middle. Get to the heart of it, and work it out. PERIOD. You can't pretend anything.

Lynn - Sorry I misjudged you as hurting, angry, and vindictive. After all, who am I, or anyone else on this board, to judge whether or not you need help yourself?

Actually, we agree on most everything here except the abortion issue. The baby is innocent, is flesh and blood, and has a spirit and soul. I would think that you at least would acknowledge that. I have never stated that the parties involved should not feel horrible or express their emotions. I would strongly urge Ray to slow down and use his head as well as his heart. You have stated your agreement with that.

You are certainly entitled to have your view on abortion. That is your business and you are obviously ready to stand before God to defend that position.

Well Lynn,
I totally understand you and am right there with you. I appreciate what you have to say. Even if I don't agree w/ all your POVs (abortion/ divorce) I have not been offended yet by anything you have to say. I appreciate your support and honesty. So....just for the record I "get" what you mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ray you have every right to what you feel, need and WANT. You also have every right to change your mind, I think that is all most people are trying to get at. It sounds like your W has made her decision already. By not making a decision or even staying quiet about something IS a decision.

Your W will, like she already has, do what she wants and it sounds like you have a really great family that will be there to help you through it. No one "deserves" this.

everyone, I know now that despite different viewpoints, everyone is trying to help me. I appreciate all the advice.

My only response to the question, why the hurry, would be related to OC. If she is going to have an abortion (which at this point I don't think she will consider), time is limited.

If she is not, I need to know so. I just want to do whatever I have to do to make sure I don't get stuck being the legal father of this child.

During one quick meeting with the lawyer, he told me there are things we can do, but I still worry.

If she is not willing to give up OC, one way or another, I want to know so I can move on with my life. Maybe I should anyway. After all, she has shown her true colors.

I know her baby is not mine because we have not been intimate in around four months. She said the doctor told her she is about 7-8 weeks along.

The past couple of days, I have been wondering about another time earlier in our marriage where she cut me off, and we were not intimate for a couple of months.

Could this have happened before? Have I been a fool for the four years I have known her? I feel like I have never really known her, and don't know what's inside her head.

I have not talked to her again. I plan on calling her this weekend, or hopefully she will call me.

I have not pressured her, but have just let her know my position. I guess the ball is in her court.
Ray

double post, sorry

[ December 17, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: XRay ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why penalize another innocent life because of the selfishness of someone else? Your suggestions to eradicate the child will result in what? To eliminate all signs of the affair? No way - the guilt and self-condemnation remains. <hr /></blockquote>I for one am not advocating anything to anyone. That being said, a child isn't a life until it can exist outside the womb. IMHO.

In the life as we here on earth know as life.

Eradicating the fetus would seem to solve so many problems with affairs.

The new born child for a time confuses many WS. It's a baby and any baby can/ will do that! It's why advertisers use babies in commercials! Soft spots to the heart!

When the woman be it WS or OW chooses to keep the child it opens up a land-mine of feelings mostly horrible ones for all of the extended families. Not for the woman who carries the fetus or the fetus itself! It sometimes makes an affair an irrepairable matter. Without the fetus one would have the affair only to deal with and that is bad enough.

In some circumstances the unborn fetus is so reprehensabile to the families that upon being born, ends all means to mend the marriage. That is truly sad and selfish. Without that "trail" many marriages would become repaired with counseling but that lingering "trail" causes many to just give up.

Any man here raising his wifes oc is unimaginably super human. No matter what, the BS will think about where the child came from in some way for the rest of his days. The other way around? Female BS will never forget because of CS/Health insurance.

Although things are good for the most part in recovered marriages an OC makes things "unforgettable" for any BS.

Therefore to bring an OC to fruition is like doing the most selfish thing you can do if you expect your BS to remain involved. BS who are not involved far much better and have a true recovery without reminders in their face forever.

Most days go well... then BAM something sets you off and well.... you know what I mean....

In the beginning I am absolutely sure the woman keeps the baby because she hopes against hope the MM will be with her. IN THE BEGINNING when they first find out. THEN WS hangs around from guilt and confusion and continues to lie in THE BEGINNING to appease OW and wounded wife. Then all hell breaks loose when OW finds MM doesn't want her and BECAUSE of the child.... the couple suffers 18 years of penalty....

Ray, run and do not walk to the nearest exit. I would tell my own son this if your case were his.

Prayers of a huge graduation and someone you deserve in the not to distant furure.

Surround yourself with your familys' love!

Lynn the harsh reality you say is true. Gotta hand it to you for telling things the way they are in most marriages that continue, it's like you've been peeking into my bedroom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Um..... I mean my kitchen!!!!

Need your views LynnG....stick around with those words to the wise and wounded!

love
Debi

I have clearly stated, on numerous times that the oc is innocent, not the only one, just one of many.

The issue is who decides what to do with the fetus. It took two to create it. Why can't it take two to decide what happens to the fetus? Where is the fathers rights? If he clearly does not want that child, the woman can still force the issue and give birth. So the argument that she is in control 100% and can totaly disrupt lots of lives for her own selfish reasons still stands. And that was the point I was making. That these women are thoughtless and selfish in the decisions to keep the child. Others be dammed.

The bigger picture is the pregnancy. These women will scream from the hills how it takes two, etc. yada yada. Yet it is all their own personal choice what happens once the child is conceived. The males get no say at all. Then these same women whine and cry foul and are shocked and upset that the father and his family want nothing to do with the oc. The father is then stuck paying support for 18 years to a child that he never wanted. If it took two to create, it should take two to decide what happens to that pregnancy. If he does not want the child, and she does not agree with abortion, then she should take full and 100% responsibility for her choice to keep the child. But we all know that will never happen, cause then the financial burden falls to the taxpayer. Either way, the women who make this choice, expect others to foot the bill for her choice. Once again, thining only of herself. THAT was my argument.

As for abortion, I find it hard to belive that God would forvive adultery and not abortion. I don' t think God is two faced. Thou shall not kill is not rated higher then Thou shall not commit adultery.

Merry Christmas to all

Amen Lynn G

lynn... a couple things...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You have every right in the world to feel as you do. You are like many many many many people who do not want to have any contact with oc whatsoever. Don't feel bad. I am totally for no contact with the oc.<hr /></blockquote>lynn, everyone who has responded to this thread has agreed with you on this point. ray, you have every right in the world to feel exactly how you do. like i said before, offering another opinion does not negate your feelings in any way! i think by the volume of support you've received, you understand that.

but lynn, you tell ray how he should be feeling too. and don't say that you don't. you're just on the other side of the coin. read the quote below... while most here might like for ray to take things slowly (not in the legal sense, but as far as making a decision based on raw emotion), you're screaming for him to kick his wife to the curb without pause.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel bad for men (again) in this situation. The woman, once she gets pregnant, gets to make all the decisions that effect so many others and these types of women could care less who they hurt, they only think of themselves. Others be dammed. ...Why be used?

...There would be no shame at your feet for leaving a woman who gets herself knocked up by another man.<hr /></blockquote>well lynn, there's not much of that that i DON'T take offense to. not that you care i'm sure. you are so quick to jump in and thrash every ow/ww here with the exact same anger and malice regardless of the situation. you apply your feelings about your situation, your husband, and your ow to absolutely everyone else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Lord I don't understand how these selfish people can even sleep at night. They must be totally empty inside. To assume that others should have to accomodated their mistakes at any cost is simply beyond comprehension.

Why stay in a situation that will be nothing but heartache, embarrassment, anger and humiliation when you can probably go and meet a nice young woman with moral fiber and character... Why force it?<hr /></blockquote>i'm gonna take this one step further and apply this sweeping generalization to your life...

wow lynn! i sure pity you being married to such a selfish man! such an awful, sleepless, shell of a man! every waking hour of every day must be filled with such heartache, embarrassment, and anger... how humiliating! to have to face the rest of your life with a man with absolutely no morals, no character... every day forcing your marriage to work. forcing some sort of meaning into your horrid existence...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? <hr /></blockquote>...a man who really isn't sorry cause it doesn't count if it's after the fact...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[HE] planned and carried out [HIS] well thought out deception without care of respect for [YOU] . THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake. <hr /></blockquote>...such a deceitful, lying, manipulative, ugly man!

see, if you're going to generalize everything, it includes your husband. and i sure hope that's not how you treat him. from the rest of your post, describing your life together before and since the affair, it doesn't sound like you do treat him that way. but then again, you also said this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry. <hr /></blockquote>so, maybe the one we should all be pitying IS your h...

not that you care.

[edited to add: like autumnday, i've often wanted to respond to things you've said, but haven't. so while i'll continue to offer my opinion and my experience to people new to this, i'll not be responding to you. it's not really worth it.]

amy

[ December 18, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Amethyst03 ]

Well, fortunately in some situations, the MM doesn't try to stop the OW from proceeding with the OC pregnancy, if that is what she chooses...

Not all OW scream and cry and beg for support.

Some xOW apply for support because for once in their lives, they aren't only thinking of themselves, but they are thinking of the OC...

ESPECIALLY when MM wants nothing further to do with xOW/OC situation...

I'm perfectly well aware of what my husband did. Good grief, while I tried, I eventually did have to come out of my hurt and denial and face the cold hard facts. So I am well aware of what he did, and who was hurt. Noting new to me.

However, when he was faced with a situation that was out of control (i.e. oc on the way) he did NOT want the oc. She choose to keep that child. He never wanted anything to do with oc. Once oc was born, she tried very hard to force contact with anyone in our family. So certain that once the oc was born that oc would be part of our family. My husband choose not to upset our household anymore, not to hurt and humiliate our children, stayed the course and had no contact. Does that absolve him of the pain, hurt and selfish behavior? Heck no. He is as guilty as her. He has caused this hurt. I have never stated anything other than that. I am not to addle brained as to lie blame for the affair soley at the feet of the OW. Sorry, not that naive. However, once that OC was conceived and he made it clear he did not want her to have it, and SHE choose to have it, that is another story. He turned his back on her and put his energy into rebuilding our marriage. He was truly sorry for all the hurt and pain. Still it is a bit of to little to late. As I went through the early days, I felt, and still do that cheaters remores is a bit fake. Sorta like sorry they were caught. But we will never know will we? Just another lump to swallow.

However, once there is a pregnancy, it changes lots of things. Lots of people are going to be affected by this child being born. Some will be hurt, others will suffer financial loss. And yet one parent gets no choice at all with the outcome of their "mistake" And for the record, No I do not think of what my husband did as a mistake. It was calculated, lies and deception, cruel beyond belief. So if you think I blame only the woman,you are severly mistaken. I do blame the choice to have the oc on her though. When the man has clearly told the woman that he does not want the child, would prefer an abortion, his family will be upset, etc. and she still goes ahead, has the child and then gets CS, yeah, I think that is selfish. And yes, it did take Two to create, but how come only one to get to make the decision on keeping it or not?

So, I do consider these women selfish.

As for leaving his wife. As I stated earlier, I would tell the exact same thing to a young woman, no children, no history, no property, the same thing. Leave. Run. Find somebody worthy of your affections. Life is hard enough and no reason to force it. And yes, had my husband done this BEFORE we had created a history, I would have bolted in a second.

And I can assure you I did not heal over night. It was a long drawn out process. You can have all the pity you want for my husband. To bad you weren't around about 14-16 years ago. I'm surehe could have used it. Because he was person non-grata for a very long time. However, he did everything in his power to keep me as his wife. It did not happen easy. Heck, it would have been much easier on him I'm sure, if he would have just given up. So I will send him your regards.

Also, this young man does deserve to be with a woman who loves him and treats him well. They have basically no history together, and she has been married a blip, and is cheating? Hmmmm.

My regards, of course.

Lynn~

I am not shocked at all by your harsh views of those who cheat and create pain and turmoil to others. What DOES bother me is that you seem to make no exception for those who FORMERLY lied, deceived and cheated but have now repented, show true remorse, asked for forgiveness from their spouse and have received it.

My disagreement with you is not on the matter of who gets to make which decisions in regard to an OC. I've stated in previous threads that men do NOT have many options. Unfortunately the law of the land does give women the sole power in deciding what to do with a pregnancy. There are two sides to the coin though, while a man cannot force a woman to have an abortion, he also cannot force her to keep the baby. That being said, I do believe the law should be changed, giving the father and mother equal decision making power.

Where I disagree with you is when you tend to paint a picture where all pregnant women with an OC behave the same. As if we ALL say, "Hey, look at me, I'm pregnant...I'm doing what I want with the baby...I don't care what you say...You don't matter...Me and my OC are all that matter...My way or the highway, etc, etc...

Lynn, I understand many women behave this way. I am only trying to point out that there are also women who behave differently. Women that do have true remorse, that are more than willing to work with their H to find a solution that both can be enthusiastic about. Women who are very humbled to find themselves with a man who is unbelievably able to forgive them and is willing to work with them to rebuild the M, as well as accept the OC as their own. Men, not in denial as you suggest, but men with a great deal of love and capacity for forgiveness.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I do believe that cheaters are remorsefull, but isn't that like the kid getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar? Easy to feel bad later isn't it? What I am saying is the second they choose to have the child, when virtually everyone involved would prefer abortion, her husband,the father,maybe the fathers wife, etc. and she still chooses to have it, is when she is being selfsih. Everyone else be dammed.

<hr /></blockquote>No, I do not think being remorseful is like a kid getting caught in the cookie jar. Feeling bad is NOT the same as being remorseful. Feeling bad is NOT how I nor my H would describe how I felt and continue to feel about the transgressions I committed. I could tell you how I feel, but I honestly don't think you would believe the depths of pain and guilt I feel for what I have brought upon my H.

As far as "virtually" everyone wanting the woman to have an abortion, that may be true in many cases, but again not in ALL. I'm quite sure you will find the following difficult to believe, but a few weeks after our OC was born, while going through a period of extreme guilt, I once said to my H, "I don't know if I can love this baby as I do OUR children, I should've given this baby up for adoption, maybe should've even aborted him." He said to me, "How can you say that? If I can love him as if he's my own, and see past all the hurt, why can't you?...I don't want to ever hear you say that again...In fact, just so you know, if you would've aborted him, I think I would've found it harder to forgive you." My H may be the "expection to the rule" among BH, but I am quite certain there are more like him out there. I know of at least 4 others on here who are much like him. YES, their options were few, but I don't believe any of them would say they were forced into anything.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oh and for the record, your affair was not a mistake. I know we all, myself included use that word. But it is wrong. There was no mistake about it. You planned and carried out your well thought out deception without care of respect for your spouse. THAT is the real truth. In all its ugly, lying way. This was no mistake. <hr /></blockquote>You are correct here. Mistake was a poorly chosen word for me to use. I in no way ever want to convey that I am minimizing what I did. However, I would've thought referring to myself as a slut, (and meaning it) would give you an indication I realize what I did was much, much more than a mistake.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As for bringing in Jesus, you might also want to read the bible where it states that divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage. <hr /></blockquote>I know full well the Bible states divorce is acceptable when adultery has touched the marriage. Why do you think I reminded my H on d-day, that he had every right to leave me high and dry? That he could divorce me with a clear conscience.

We could go back and forth forever and a day on what the Bible states. I do know this though, that the Bible is chalk full of sinners, including many adulterers. The main theme is that there is a way to be delivered from our sin. In fact, as I'm sure you know, while Jesus was in his human form, he was born a descendant of a very well known FORMER adulterer. What a beautiful, wonderous, and even unbelievable commentary of true remorse, true forgiveness, and true reconcilliation. I wouldn't classify David as a man only feeling bad because his hand was caught in the cookie jar, would you? I get the feeling it irks you, that I, a FWW have the nerve to speak in Biblical terms.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have very little pity for cheaters and how bad they feel ONLY WHEN THEY WERE CAUGHT. Sorry. <hr /></blockquote>No need to say sorry, I agree with this. However, once again, not ALL cheaters fall into this category. Some feel badly, (not strong enough word) because of what THEY DID, not because they were caught.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As for this poor man, he is new to this. He is confused and hurt. I would hate to see him feel that he has to behave in a certain politically correct way. This man has feelings and he has a right to them. HE is the injured party here, not his wife. HER SILENCE is deafining isn't it? HE is the one who wants his marriage,just not the OC. What is so wrong with that?
<hr /></blockquote>Ray is MOST definitely the injured party. What I have been posting to you is NOT meant in any way to say he doesn't have a right to the way he is feeling. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with him not wanting the OC. It is perfectly understandable. I don't think his W's silence is deafening though. He has told her his terms and what he can live with. She might well be finding it difficult to give her response to him, right on the spot. I now realize I should've started a new thread to you individually, so as not to confuse the point of this thread, and I apologize for that.

I guess the main thing I wanted to convey to you, is that not all cheaters are the same. Some of us are truly FORMER cheaters in every sense.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Oh, and your opinion of me and my harshness is noted, it hardly tears me up, as you must know.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes, I know. Afterall, you self proclaimed yourself as the board monster. I was pretty sure nothing could hurt you. It was not my intention to hurt or tear you up anyway, only to call you out on your inaccurate generalizations.

There are many, many areas where I agree with you. The areas where I don't agree with you, I still respect your views, and I keep my mouth shut, because we are each entitled to our own beliefs. It is when you speak an opinion as if it is fact, that I have trouble not speaking up.

I did want to address one more point that you made.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As for abortion, I find it hard to belive that God would forvive adultery and not abortion. I don' t think God is two faced. Thou shall not kill is not rated higher then Thou shall not commit adultery.

<hr /></blockquote>You are completely correct, God is not two faced. Of course God forgives abortion, as well as adultery, murder, etc... However, in my opinion that does not mean we should live our lives as if to say, "Hmmmmm, I can do this sin and I can do that sin because God is always there to forgive me." I regret to say I lived my life for a time with this attitude.

Also, since you quoted, "thou shalt not kill" in reference to abortion, and that God would forgive abortion, are we to believe you do see abortion as a sin?

One last thing...when you signed your reply to me with "Good day" I thought of Paul Harvey and how he always signs off with the same phrase, in such a jovial way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Is that how you meant it toward me? I kinda doubt it...oh well.

~autumnday

"Fetus" is strictly a medical term for a baby. The pro-choice lobby adopted this term in order to de-humanize the baby and to make it somehow less abhorrent to abort it. When we say "baby" that personalizes the child and gives it a human identity. We see a "baby" as a "baby". A "fetus" gives the inpression of a non-descript blob of tissue, which is exactly how the abortion industry wants it portrayed. Life begins at conception, not at the point of entry into the "real world". The mother's womb is a part of the "real world" creation that God made. Abortionists call the abortion procedure "terminating a pregnancy". If they termed it what is actually is, "murder", very few people would consider it as a viable option. We also refer to adultery or fornication as an "affair", in order to cast the same impression.

If your husband enthusiatically agreed to keep child and raise child, that is a far cry from the others. Maybe I do tend to lump.

I am speaking primarily of this man, his wife, her silence, etc. She is hardly trying to work this out with him. She appears to not be listening to his needs and wants. And sadly, appears to have put herself and her child above him.

I do belive in your husband being saddened that you worried about loving that child as much as your others.

I have to go back and read, but I don't recall saying your husband was in denial. I am unaware of your story. I do know that denial is a very common occurance in the infidelity saga. It is a self defense mechanism that we can't control. We can't decide to deny anything. It happens. I will read again.

Paul Harvey???? Wow, blast from the past. I use the term Good day often. Or Regards. Or whatever is on my mind for a salutation.

I do however, believe that when I say "virtually all" I was thinking of situations where virtually everyone but the pregnant woman, is not welcoming of the child. Quite obvious that it can't adhere to all scenarios.

As for beliving people can be sorry, well of course, and it has to show in actions not words. Words are cheap. In your case, apparently your husband forgave and accepted. In many cases, it does not work quite that way. If he didn't want the child, then what? He is obviously a strong man to raise a child with others knowing he is not the father. Actually, that is quite impressive. I guess I don't have that kind of strength.

I have had friends and family who think I was crazy to stay with my husband after his affair. They would have gone nuts if I had the OC in our home. I just didn't have the strength. It's bad enough that it was the talk for a while. The humiliation is really quite difficult. Especially in the early years when you are trying to decide what to do, how to do it, how to tell. It was to much for me.

I have to say, this entire post has some very strong, opinionated, men and women. I repect all of you, and each of you, and the many situations.

I like to see open discussion like this.

We all hurt in some way, or we wouldn't be here, listening to each other.

What I find the most lack of, on this board, is compassion for each other.

ember

Lynn~

I need to clarify. No one knows my H is not the bio father, except for x-om, but I never revealed to him either way what I was going to do with the pregnancy. I went complete NC, and so did he, never inquiring. As far as I know, he does not know about the OC being born. We don't even know for sure that my H isn't the bio. My H does NOT want to do DNA, nor does he want the possibility of OC or my adultery revealed to anyone.

This obviously has been easier for him in terms of not having to explain to others and suffer any possible humiliation, but on the other hand it is difficult for him to not have anyone to talk to about this. He doesn't ever say that, but I would think it's the case. None the less, whether people know what he has taken on or not, does NOT diminish what he has done. Nor does it change the fact, he is a great man, to whom I will be eternally grateful to and for. In fact, I'm the one who thought we should tell others. Not just for the sake of complete honesty, but because, oh how I would love for his parents to know what a wonderful son they raised, (not that they don't know he is good, but I'm afraid they will never know the depth of his character).

I cannot fathom how he does it, but he does. He has taught me an unbelievable lesson in forgiveness. He always used to tell me how my unforgiveness toward others was only hurting myself, and that I needed to have a forgiving heart. Those words never worked on me before. By seeing the mercy he has shown me, I have felt awfully small in my unforgiveness toward others.

You didn't say directly MY H was in denial, this is what you said (in what I thought was regarding BH):

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think the biggest mistake that can be made is to say, ok, your forgiven, lets pretend this didn't happen. I will have contact and fall in love, or I will raise this oc, and pretend it is mine. Talk about living in denial. That will explode one day. <hr /></blockquote>It may seem like pretending, but in our situation, it is anything but pretending. It is the real deal, my H is in love with the OC. I am witness to it every day. In fact I could go on and on about how he acts even more excited about this little one than he ever did years ago when we had our children. I don't get it, really. I have even been meaning to write a post to Just Learning to see what he makes of my H and his unusual closeness to OC. I'm not making this stuff up. When he calls during the day, the first thing he asks about is OC. He gives me a quick greeting and kiss when he arrives home, then heads past me directly to see OC. He has already bought him a collection of his favorite toys from his youth, that OC will not be able to play w/ till he is 3 yrs. old! I don't see it as denial, because he is fully aware of the possibility of baby being an OC, yet loving him anyway. Again, I don't get it, or how he does it, but I am not the kind of person my H obviously is.

Ok, once again I've written too long a post, and gotten a bit OT, but bragging about my H is easy for me to do. I would give anything if it had always been the case, and I could take back the past.

Anyway, thank you for your kind response.

Take good care.

~autumnday

ps...

What you said about it exploding one day....

I know you weren't referring to my situation. However, just wanted to say that I do fear it all exploding one day. Not in terms of my H turning his back on me and baby, but in terms of what may happen by us not revealing the truth to anyone. I think we are making a mistake by planning to never reveal the truth, but, (for now) my H is adament on this issue, these are my H wishes, and I intend to honor them.

autumn like you my H has taken on the twins (OC) like as if they are his own. He is so obviously in love with them. He treats the boy twin with a lot more love and affection than he treated our son that we had together. In my case most people that know us know the truth. They know that H is not their biological father. But everyone seemed to follow my H lead and when they seen he loved these babies everyone has taken his lead. I think in situations as these you can't lump anything in a category. I think everyone's situations are different and we all do the best we know how to do.

I have to agree with ember that compassion goes a long way--especially toward those of us who are here to avoid affairs and affair-proof our marriages, MB-style...

Going through life looking through a rear-view mirror is not productive.

Yes, everyone here agrees people who have affairs are selfish, yes, affairs are morally wrong, yes, affairs destroy lives and some some, not all, xOW try to cling to a man that was never and will never commit to them ever. And... (?)

All of us here have felt the consequences of affairs. That's kind of a given. But the question now is how do we deal with it in constructive ways? How do we rebuild communication and trust that was broken down to the point where an affair occurred? How do we return our marriages to a loving state? How do we deal with CS issues?

Where do we go from here? How do we live with pain without letting anger and hurt consume us? How to rebuild romance? How do we get to the point where we can enjoy life?

Regardless of contact or no contact, we get to choose our state of mind. We get to choose to live peacefully on the inside or be in constant turmoil over things/people/circumstances we cannot control.

[ December 18, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]

BINthere, Thank-you. You have very deep insight.

ember

I spoke with WW on the phone today. She said she wants to talk tonight, and asked if I would come over.

Though I really don't want to see her right now, I am going. She said she can't discuss things over the phone.
Ray

HPK, Good points.

What amazes me so is that many of the people here who speak of God and religion are also making their own rules up in terms of abortion/when life begins. I know of no Christian religion that says life begins when a baby can thrive outside the mother's womb. That is man's law, not Gods.

Gemini, isn't your church christian based? Please excuse me if I'm wrong about that.

Yes, CeeCee my religion is Christian based. Personally I believe a fetus (medical term) isn't a baby until it is born. I said it was my opinion not my religions' opinion.

How can a fetus who can't even think or breathe be a baby?

When I was expecting I always refered to things in the future like this: "When the baby is here..." You know? Before I had him. Most definately in the later months the fetus becomes a baby.... I was trying to say in the beginning....when it's first discovered....it, to me, is a fetus.

Hey, that "morning after" pill could be used in a lot of affairs and I'm sure it is! It's been around for years and prevents the egg from attatching itself to the uterus. Do you think the egg is a baby too?

Sorry, I just don't.

But hey, that's why abortion is a hotly debated issue I guess. I have always been pro-choice on that issue. I find no place in the Bible that frowns upon it.

Then you have your pro-lifers who kill for justice when an injustice is done, death penalty, and I disagree with that too. There is where you kill a living human! Not a fetus. I think that is revenge not justice and perpertrates the same sadness the victims had to the offenders families. Who really wins?

So which is really murder?

So I am opposite of my religion, hate the death penalty (they agree with me there) and agree with abortion.

CeeCee and HurtingPromiseKeeper, you both have a right to your opinion too.

love
Debi

[ December 19, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]

gem, I agree with you. I am pro choice, only under 8 weeks pragnant.

Did you know that at one time, the Roman Catholic church believed that a female fetus did not get her soul until 12 weeks in utero, but a male fetus got his soul immediately? Ask a priest.

I got an 'a' in that class in college.

And yes, I have let Jesus into my heart.

Abortion is still being argued, at what point?

IUD's cause abortion, but are also a form of BC.

Where does life start, or when does it happen, is still being argued by theologians.

This website is supposed to be for marriage building, regardless of believes in abortion, or religion. Some might be atheist.

Why are some of you so judgemental?

ember

Is a person who is dependent on artificial support in order to exist in this life, a human being? Do they have a right to life? What if that person was delivered early because their Mother died or had other life threatening complications and was not to be “born” for many, many months later? Is this a human being? A baby? Technically can’t survive outside of the Mother. A hundred years ago, or even 50, would not have. Is this a baby?
I’m sure there will be as many morning after pills used in non-affair relationships. I am not going there and probably shouldn’t have spoken up here either.
Yes, this is a mb site. There is discussion about solving marital problems by killing an unborn baby as a solution you’re an adult problem. I think that is why we’re discussing the morality of it now.
Sometimes we believe in what is most convenient for us. What makes our lives easier and for no other reason.

hit twice

[ December 19, 2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: CeeCee68 ]

You know, this thread was started to prevent hijacking another thread. Maybe the abortion thing should be moved also. So while everyone is fixated on whose morale value is the right one, what about how you're doing X-RAY?

mtd

[ December 19, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]

First of all:

XRAY, I'm glad your going to talk to your wife. I'm glad your going to talk. It's a start. You just never know how your going to feel later on with healing so why not talk to her now. It's a good start.

Abortion:
Abortion is a sticky conversation. I too believe that it's not up to us to judge if someone does have an abortion, but that goes both ways....even if someone chooses NOT to have one. My personal beliefs have changed on it in the last 10 years. Even so I try not and judge who does and does not have one. Of course most of the bs believe in it so strongly and wish that the ow would of done it. It would also make her life easier as it would the uh. They are in the situation. Just as strongly as the ow feels not too....because they are in the situation. We as ow feel we are correct in our feelings and the bs and uh feel they are right in there feelings.

Well, I went over to the apartment and my WW and I talked. It was not a long conversation, but I think it clarified some things in my mind.

I tried to stay calm, and did til the end when I walked out.

She said that she was sorry and wanted to work on the M.

I asked her some about the A. I asked how long it had been going on, and she said about three or four months.

I asked why she would do this, since she is married to me and this guy had been a real sh*t to her in the past.

She said she didn't know, that she just felt drawn to him and when he started calling her, she just fell into it.

I asked how can I be sure that she won't fall into it again, and she said that she is over him now(I've heard that one before), and won't make that mistake again.

I also asked why she did not tell me he was calling her, that maybe together we could have prevented this from happening. She said she thought I would be mad, which is probably true.

I asked about earlier in our M when she had denied me sex for a couple of months, if she had been having an A then. She said no, but I could tell from the tone in her voice and the look in her eye that this was not the truth. But for the time being I dropped it.

We then got to talking about the OC. I asked her if she had considered what I said. She asked me why I could not consider keeping OC, and I told her that I could not raise OMs child, and that I wasn't even ready for my own child.

I asked what about her, that she had always said she wanted to wait to have kids, why is she so insistant now.

Her answer, and I can't believe she said this, was that OM has been important to her, in the past before she met me, and during the A. She said that she just could not give up a child she is having with him, even if he does not want marry her.

I just sat there in disbelief for a couple of minutes. Then I said that's it then, and walked out.

I think it became clear to me right then that she will never be over OM, she will always be drawn to him, and there is nothing I, or any future husband she may have, can do about it.

I think it's also obvious that she wanted to marry him and have their baby, but he turned her down. They must have talked about it, or she would not know he did not want to marry her.

I don't know what else to say. I don't think she has ever gotten over OM from when they first met. I think something has been going on the whole time I have known her.

I've been a fool. I wonder how many people know about this, and have been wondering why I couldn't figure it out.

I told my Dad about our conversation, and he suggested we get me into some counseling. I told him I wanted to file for divorce right away, but he said there is time for that, let's get my head straight first.
Ray

Listen to your Dad, Ray. He sounds like a very wise man that loves you very much. Please consider counseling with the Harley's Counseling Center, since they deal with these situations all the time.

Ray, take care of yourself. Stay strong and continue to surround yourself with the support of your family.

Ray, I'm sorry the talk did not go as you wanted. I'm a little puzzeled at her reaction to your question about the baby. It seems like she is holding on for the om sake. Instead of because it's what she really wants for her ownself and beliefs. You maybe right about her feelings, but she may also be in the fog still. Your dad is right you should get into couneling. That should be your first thing to do. You should wait for a few months before you file for divorce as you need some healing time and you may just may seem to find you think a bit differently. Also, she may find she thinks differently as this man shows his true colors. I know when I saw first hand what xmm did to me without the knowledge of his w, I saw him for what he is and instead of what I thought he was. Please take your dad's advise for now. Good luck.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />xray:

"I've been a fool. I wonder how many people know about this, and have been wondering why I couldn't figure it out."<hr /></blockquote>WRONG! You have been deceived which is a lot different than being a fool. Being a fool means that you know what is right and yet chose to do wrong [gee that sounds like your WW doesn't it?].

Ray,

My heart is so sad reading what you are going through. You and W are so young to be going through this sort of hell.

But I agree with you about her not being over OM. I agree about your stance towards OC and getting a divorce. Divorce is not really final... if things change, you can always get remarried... I know a few people who divorced and got back together.

I think you are handling this great. I was happy to read that you involved your family. I secluded myself during my exwh's affairs. Once I opened up to my family then I was able to start healing myself.

I wish you all the best in your journey to recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ray,

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Yes it does sound like she is still hooked on the MM. I agree with everyone, get some counceling, it will help you .

Good luck.

I was in your shoes buddy, found out about affair same week as ex-wife's pregnancy. Only difference is that there was a paternity question. I'm 6 months from d-day, 3 months post divorce.

I disagree with your father, file for divorce NOW! However, do see a counselor. I had two sessions that helped a lot even though he wouldn't prescribe antideps (or morphine for that matter, lol).

Look, there is absolutely nothing ambiguous in the message your wife is sending you. She is making it perfectly clear what kind of woman she is and what your role is going to be in her life.

Some things to consider from my experience:
-Forget about what your family is telling you about standing by you if you stay with her. This is not the same as step or adopted kids. My family said the same thing, but would then say things like 'time to change my will'.
-You don't have the luxury of time. Once that kid is born judges can pretty much do whatever they want as far as paternity goes.
-If you decide to divorce there's no need to see or speak to her again. Don't underestimate the trauma you're going through.
-Come up with a plan, both short and long term and keep yourself busy. Exercise. Improve yourself.
-You WILL get over it in time.

Good luck

Xray,

To reiterate what TMCM has stated, you haven't been the fool. You've just been deceived.

I like your Dad's advice. The bottom line is that your wife is behaving just like every other wayward spouse on the planet. She's been caught in an affair. It's probably in the process of ending. She still suffers from the distorted reality of the affair---Harley likens affairs to chemical substance addiction, and it's a very apt analogy. Your wife is still going through withdrawal (and she appears to be in the early stages, by what you write). It will take her time to get through this completely. And afterwards, you (both) would need to take "extraordinary precautions" to guarantee that the affair doesn't start again.

Based on your situation, I'd give you a 75% chance in recovering your marriage, if you immdediately got into counseling with the Harley's (or someone similar). But---that's not taking your wife's pregnancy into account. It's a shame that has happened, because it limits your options and compresses your timeframe to the point where it's going to take a bigger miracle for your marriage to be recovered.

I would urge you to listen to your dad's advice here and go into counseling, if only for a few sessions. You can continue the divorce process (I see no reason to slow it down). But for your sake, I think you would be best suited to do both. The cost is insignificant in relationship to the big picture here.

Also agree with TMCM's observations...

There is no rush to react to your emotions at this time. Do what you need to do to get through the holidays and try to count your blessings...

I mean, what IF you guys had other children in the picture? Then it would be even more difficult to sort through your feelings...

for the record, my Dad has recommended I get counseling, not that my WW and I get MC.

At this point, I tend to agree with Lurking, time to get out.

I have a meeting with my lawyer later this week to discuss the legal ramifications. I do not want to be responsible for this kid.
Ray

Xray,

No offense intended (well, maybe a little), but one of the worse things you can do is to "follow your instincts" when you discover that your spouse is having an affair. I don't know anything about Lurking's history (seeing that he only has three posts), but I will suggest to you that based on my several years of service here, and my time spent counseling with the Harley's, you would be well-served with going to "counseling" with Steve for a short period of time.

This advice of mine is based on the state you arrived in here (still in "love" with your wife), the time you've known about the affair, and the very predictible emotional cycles you've been going through. Not only does the wayward spouse's affair appear in a "script", but the betrayed spouse's responses also tend to fall into specific patterns. I'm encouraging you to break out of this and spend a few weeks working through this, so that you will have fewer regrets in the long run.

This isn't to beat up on you, or to drum up business for Steve. It's for your own best interests. This is your first time in dealing with something like this---I've dealt with the same issues successfully, and also helped dozens of others through it as well. I hope you take this advice to heart.

K
thank's for your concern. I am going to go to IC, but I don't like the idea of phone counseling, so will find someone here.

There really is not much to talk about regarding M. I will not accept the OC. Period. End of discussion. So unless WW agree's to give it up, there is no point.

I know people here are spring loaded to save a M, and that's great. But not all M's are meant to be, and some betrayals are too much to overcome.

I have not turned away from the possibility of recovery. But, it has to be just the two of us...not us and OM's kid. I can't do that.
Ray

Xray,

Can't help you with the phone counseling (unless you try it...). Having done both, I find that I prefer the phone counseling because it's more convenient and I'm less distracted than being in an office.

Let me try to help you understand what I'm getting at here. First off, the counseling I was referring to (with Steve) would be Individual---I counseled with him for 8 months or so with very little involvement from my wife. The counseling is to help you come to a conclusion regarding your marriage, as well as to help you with behavioral skills for a future relationship.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will not accept the OC. Period. End of discussion.<hr /></blockquote>I don't have an issue with this at all. Neither would Steve.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I know people here are spring loaded to save a M, and that's great. But not all M's are meant to be, and some betrayals are too much to overcome.<hr /></blockquote>Agreed. However, it's still pretty early from where you are in the process, and I think you would benefit from someone skilled in this area to help you figure out if this is really been too much to overcome. And I would do this work with someone who is pro-marriage: your typical counselor would see you in pain, and encourage you to avoid it by relieving yourself of the situation (the marriage). That's not always the best policy for personal growth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So unless WW agree's to give it up, there is no point. I have not turned away from the possibility of recovery. But, it has to be just the two of us...not us and OM's kid. I can't do that.<hr /></blockquote>And this is why I'm "wasting" my time posting to you. I don't think you're completely done here. But you have very rigorous requirements that your wife needs to meet in order for you to consider recovery. This is where getting Steve involved would be a benefit (in first counseling with you, and then discussing this situation with your wife)---he is an expert in handling these types of "negotiations" and would be able to give you some feel for whether a recovery would be possible. Because I know very little of your marital past, I'm going to hazard a guess that Steve would have a better chance of getting your wife to listen to your position and thoughtfully consider it rather than having you present it. It's my feeling that based on this last statement, you'd be better off in the hands of a good counselor who is pro-marriage and experienced in dealing with infidelity. The Harley's are among the best.

Again, I have no problems with your stance on these issues, or your desire to move forward with a divorce (on the legal end). But for you to come out of this in the best shape possible, I think you need to:

1. Fully explore the avenues available for reconcilliation

2. Understand what role you may have played in putting your marriage in this situation

3. Address any issues with regard to #2 with a behavioral plan that will help you correct (grow), and become a better husband.

Whether this happens in this marriage, or down the line in another relationship---you're best served by working through this process as thoroughly as possible.

(I'll stop beating up on you now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

[ December 22, 2003, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: K ]

xray, you are young man with his whole life ahead of him. I think you would be better off to end the marriage and move on with your life.

I am trying to think how I would feel if this were happening to me. I would always feel that my spouse was tainted by bearing somebody elses child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, there will be triggers in your future. If/when you have your own child, you will always have thoughts in the back of your mind that this isn't something new for her. Even the medical history will reflect that this is not her first pregnancy as the doctor writes notes, and then he'll ask what happened with the first pregancy whether it went to term and was it a live birth etc. You will have to face all of that in, what should be, a very special time. But it won't be special.

You will have to tell the truth or laugh off comments from friends and relatives about how the baby looks like you or doesn't look like you (if she were not to give it up for adoption). So you'll either have to tell the story again, or be triggered about why the baby can bear no resemblance to you whatsoever.

What if the baby is not born healthy? What if your wife were to pass away when the child was very young, leaving you to raise a child that is not even yours?

At such a young age, unless you think you have an extraordinary relationship to save, I would let her go and live with her choices while you move on to create the life you WERE planning.

Please bear in mind, this site is fantastic. Its positive, pro-marriage. However, I do think people tend to abuse plan A/B and make it into something it isn't.

I have a good idea what x-ray's dealing with. His situation is one that REQUIRES cynical appraisal. He does NOT have time to figure out his feelings.

Look, his wife has maneuvered him into about the worst possible position. Does anyone really think OM will be out of the picture after she has his child?

IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. Everyone makes mistakes, but this is a whopper of a mistake. She will NOT give the kid up for adoption. If she were to terminate the pregnancy at this point, she'll blame you and never forgive you for it. Then you'll have a whole new set of problems/issues and possibly addiction issues in the future. You may as well have that swishy mars/venus guy move in and sleep on the sofa.

She's put you in a lose/lose situation. My best advice is to act decisively, that's the luxury of not having kids to worry about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. <hr /></blockquote>IMO, she doesn't have to terminate the P to be a woman of character, maybe even the opposite.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lurking24:
IMO a woman of character would have terminated the pregnancy, confessed the affair, and then would have wanted to work on marriage. <hr /></blockquote>I would not go that far. I will say a woman of character would not have cheated in the first place. However, they are where they are. I think a woman of character would recognize that she has put Ray in a no win situation, and would gracefully bow out and let him move on with his life.
Michael

XRay, well, I think divorcing her, immediately is the right thing to do. She has made her position perfectly clear. I also believe that it will keep you from ever being financially liable for her child. I really feel for you. I just hate to see people in pain and confusion. But I believe you getting out is the right thing for you at this time. Trust me, you are not the fool. She is. She is a fool for believing in any future with that other man. She is a fool to get pregnant in this century with all the birth control available. She is a fool to throw away a good husband and marriage. You were deceived by her and lied to. That does not make you a fool at all.

Autumn, I didn't realize all that. You know, I went into a denial for a long time after I learned of OC. First I was literally shocked and angry about the affair. Filed for divorce, tossed him out. The standard issue rage, fury hurt of the betrayed wife. Then some how, we got back together, all was well on the outside. But I was in denial. I actually forgot that oc was on the way, etc. I don't mean literally, I mean I was able to sort of put it in some place where I didn't think about it. Then, one day it sorta blew up. And this was a long time after affair, reconciliation, birth of oc, etc. I mean years after oc was born. I blew. I went into a rage an anger that scared even myself. I hated my husband. I hated everything. I was hurting terribly and really depressed. I went to counseling and learned that we had buried this issue. I was pretending it didn't happen. I was in total denial of all that had transpired. This is not something I choose to do, it was my mind protecting me. Then, it came out. It through us back to day one. Near divorce. It took a long time to get past this. Counselor said I had Post Traumatic Stress Disorde. It was a nightmare. My husband, who had thought we had cleared the affair mess was totally and completely shocked. He couldn't understand why now, why all the anger, etc. It was like he so badly wanted to move on, forget, put it in the past, etc. so we hid it. Pretended. After the affair, the resulting oc, the legal procedures, all of which we handled as a team, he thought we were in the clear. What he didn't realize, and obviously neither did I, is that we never openly dealt with the affair etc. It all came flooding out. He finally saw what the real damage was. He finally saw the real pain. He learned that while I would heal, that I would always have the scar. It was not a pretty time. So when I speak of denial and all, it is coming from what we went through. I know not everyone will or has gone through that. God I pray not. But when we hide things, intentionally, or on purpose, they eventually come bubbling to the surface and look out. Maybe having message boards helps people vent off their anger. Understand more what has happened, etc. Who knows, maybe had there been an internet when I was in those early days, I would have done things differently? I'll never know. All I know is that when I speak of denial it is from personal experience. It was not a pleasant experince at all. Just my thoughts,

and as Paul Harvey said......"good day!!!"

Happy Holidays.

I hope that people recall that the only real time issue is due to Xray encouraging an abortion. If his W has already decided on NOT having one, then HE is not pressed for time and would be well advised to consider K's advice to sort through things NOW.

With regard to this issue, I am an interloper, however it is the issue that finally got me posting here 4.5 years ago. I am bothered by what I see as harsh judgements concerning his W. Or perhaps generalizations.

I don't think anyone would argue that this is a male's worst nightmare. However, this nightmare is very complex and depends a great deal on the attitude of the pregnant W and how she treats and addresses her H. It also depends somewhat on the family situation (previous children or not), but I have seen more than a few couples come through here who had no previous children and the H decided to stay. Apparently the W was able to persuade him that HE was the focus of her life along with the child.

I will also concede that Dr. Harley himself suggests that it is often better if the H leaves and lets the W and OM raise THEIR child. However, THEIR child is an interesting thing. Because while women KNOW the child is their's men do not, and until DNA testing came along and surely before blood typing men often had no idea if the child was theirs. However, if the male was a good father, the child became his.

I had an occasion to talk to a fellow yesterday, who I have known for 20 years. He has never had children and never married. His girl friend for a few years has 3 children. They broke up about 3 years ago. She just left town with her new boyfriend leaving her two remaining teenagers(13,16) with no family. This fellow is taking care of them this Christmas because they have no where to go, and frankly he has been more of a father to them even after he and their mother broke up than she has been their mother. He gives them a place to stay. He feeds them. He takes them to the doctor, yes he has the medical insurance cards for each one, because Mom cannot be bothered. He has moved three times since the breakup and usually 1 or more of them move in with him to stay. He has essentially raised all three of the children for the last 9 nears.

Is he the father? Is she a mother?

Folks, I think xray is on the path he chooses, and probably the right path given his W's inability to get old BF/OM out of her life. However, if she really decided to do that, and she really wanted to try with xray, would your assessment of her be so harsh? Should it be so harsh?

As much as I feel sorry for xray, I PITY his W. Folks it takes more than biology to be a mother or a father. It takes more than one mistake to brand someone immoral. It takes more than one good act to be branded as good. It takes a lifetime of living to be evaluated as to who and how you are.

xray and his W are in a very very difficult situation. Neither of them know how to handle it. They will survive it, but the question remains will they LEARN from it. K's suggestion and the suggestion of others is that xray go slowly and learn as much as he can from this situation, so that it won't harm him in the future. There is more here to worry about than CS payments. There is xray's future relationships with women, his future family, his future children.

I know many here are frustrated at yet ANOTHER case of adultery leading to an unexpected/unwanted child, but frustration won't help either party. Folks, the issue is about learning. The decisions come whether we want them or not. The decisions ultimately get made for us IF we will look at all of the data.

It is the learning and healing that is the issue that xray should be focusing on. Hence K's suggestion that he call Steve Harley. Xray, needs to make sure that when this is done, his head is screwed on straight for surely his W has been messing with it for a long time.

I do hope that someone finds this post of value.

God Bless,

JL

Just learning,
I don't think it is the intent of anyone to make a harsh judgement on Xrays wife. The fact is, she is not the one posting here. Posters here on the forum tend to take in the person with a problem, whether it's a WS or BS. We tend to look out for that persons interests, and in the process, the other partner sometimes is judged unfairly. Often, we also are left to give advice, make judgements, read the situation based on one set of facts. It would be interesting in this case to hear the point of view of the WS. Maybe she is repentent and wants her marriage.

So here we are with Xrays situation as he see's it. For some of us that's enough. Even Harley would agree that it may be in his best interest to move on. That does not mean we think Xray cannot save his marriage or that his wife is no longer worthy of him. It is a simple recognition of the odds. And the odds of any marriage making it these days is 50-50. Add in the baggage that Xrays marriage would be carrying in addition to the difficulties any marriage would face, and I think the most reasonable advice to give Xray is for him to get a divorce and start fresh.

Now, that does not mean Xray gets a free pass. He does need IC, and he does need to examine what happened here and how to learn from it in the future.
Michael

XRay, I'm going to hit you hard with an MB 2x4. Lots of people may think this is unwarranted, but ... I think you need it.

*****edited****Justuss**

Your wife is in deep doodoo here and you're freaking out. Okay, I get that.

BUT.

Let's go back to the WIFE thing for a minute.

If you're like most people in this country, you took vows before God and everybody.

Those vows went something along the lines of "for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."

So now you're saying it's too hard?

TOO FRICKING BAD.

Think about this for a minute. Yes, you're young. And you're acting like it, which I mean in the kindest possible way.

What if this is the ONLY CHANCE you ever get to raise any child?

What if this is the ONLY WIFE you ever get to have?

The anger and defensiveness that I hear in you goes something like this: "I can't I can't I can't I can't I WON'T AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME."

Well, what I have to say is this. "Oh, really? What would it take for you to be enthusiastic about raising this child?"

Or let's take a little bit easier thing. "What would it take to have you wait to make any more grand, line-in-the-sand statements until after you've had six months or so to calm down?"

Ok, I'm done with the 2x4 now. If you're still reading, I appreciate it and I'm going to take it to a different level now. It might not work in one post, and if it doesn't, I do apologize. But there's another side here, too.

And what is it that you're so freaked out about anyway? I have this real sense that it's not about the OM, the OC, and whether this guy was her boyfriend or not.

I suspect that you're terribly, terribly hurt, Ray, so I'm going to ask this. Have you cried about this yet? Have you sat down and cried the way only an adult man can, with all the pain coming to the fore and you accepting that you hurt like you never thought you could? Your wife betrayed you in a way you never expected. And no matter what, your life is never, ever going to be the same as you wanted it to be. Hon, that's a pile of hurt that no one should have to deal with. And yet, lots of people do, and live through it, and they're better people afterwards.

I want you to go find a baby, Ray. Doesn't matter whose it is. Just make sure it's a young baby, three months old or so. And I want you to hold that baby for an hour while she's asleep, and I want you to smell the scent of her hair. And then I want you to cry and cry, Ray, because this IS a tragedy. For you, for OM, for your wife, and for the child who's at the center of the bad decisions that adults all around her have made.

Can you be the one to make a good decision for that child who's not even born yet? What would it take for you to become this child's advocate, this child's protector, this child's strength and support system? What would it take?

[ December 23, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

And I have one more thing to say, because it's the day before Christmas Eve.

Jesus was an illegitimate child raised by a man who was not his father. That seemed to turn out okay in the end.

I think it is wrong to compare the situation of Our Savior to an illicit affair.

Ray needs support, he does not have to feel guilty about not wanting OM's child. It is now his wife's decision. Adoption is always another way out.

Holding a strange baby does nothing, only in your dreams. Rays feelings do count, and who are you to judge?

ember

ember,
I totally agree....I hold babies in my office a lot of days and feel nothing more for them than being a temporary baby sitter..... Gosh if we all felt love for strange infants trouble would surely follow..

Immaculate Conception is a far cry from adultry/pregnancy.

But the Lord must have his reasons.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Debi

I'd suggest that you read the Gospel of Luke and the thought process Joseph went through. There are some distinct similarities.

And while folks who hold babies every day probably are a little inured to it, it sounds to me like Ray is not all that familiar with the general charms of babies. I would prefer, in all honesty, that he wait to make this decision until he holds THIS baby in his arms, after having supported his wife through pregnancy and labor. Because it's THIS baby that he's got to be thinking about.

But even another baby may help him understand more about what his choices are.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just J:
 I would prefer, in all honesty, that he wait to make this decision until he holds THIS baby in his arms, after having supported his wife through pregnancy and labor. Because it's THIS baby that he's got to be thinking about.

But even another baby may help him understand more about what his choices are. <hr /></blockquote>Are you insane? The whole problem Xray is facing is that once he could hold this baby in his arms, it's pretty much too late. From what others have said, once a baby is born, in most states, it is legally the child of the husband in a marriage. Now what? Suppose he holds this baby in his arms and still cannot do it? Now he is stuck with CS payments for the next 18 years for a child who is not his. Sorry, but that is just bad advice.
Michael
PS since you want to bring religion into this, even the bible says you can get a divorce if there is adultery.

JustJ

The laws forcing a BH to become legally obligated to an OC once he/she is born do not give the BH too much time to decide whether or not he wants to be its father. If xray's view on the matter is firm and resolute, then no amount of goading or baby charming is going to change it. If he divorces his WW ti does not necessarily mean that reconciliation is impossible at some time in the future. If that happens, then xray would develop a strong emotional tie to him/her and be an excellent step-father of his own free will.

TMCM, I see your point, especially because there are no C of the M, nor a long HX.

ember

Just wanted to say Happy New Year to everyone.
Ray