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#824649 12/18/03 05:47 PM
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I have to say, this entire post has some very strong, opinionated, men and women. I repect all of you, and each of you, and the many situations.

I like to see open discussion like this.

We all hurt in some way, or we wouldn't be here, listening to each other.

What I find the most lack of, on this board, is compassion for each other.

ember

#824650 12/18/03 06:37 PM
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Lynn~

I need to clarify. No one knows my H is not the bio father, except for x-om, but I never revealed to him either way what I was going to do with the pregnancy. I went complete NC, and so did he, never inquiring. As far as I know, he does not know about the OC being born. We don't even know for sure that my H isn't the bio. My H does NOT want to do DNA, nor does he want the possibility of OC or my adultery revealed to anyone.

This obviously has been easier for him in terms of not having to explain to others and suffer any possible humiliation, but on the other hand it is difficult for him to not have anyone to talk to about this. He doesn't ever say that, but I would think it's the case. None the less, whether people know what he has taken on or not, does NOT diminish what he has done. Nor does it change the fact, he is a great man, to whom I will be eternally grateful to and for. In fact, I'm the one who thought we should tell others. Not just for the sake of complete honesty, but because, oh how I would love for his parents to know what a wonderful son they raised, (not that they don't know he is good, but I'm afraid they will never know the depth of his character).

I cannot fathom how he does it, but he does. He has taught me an unbelievable lesson in forgiveness. He always used to tell me how my unforgiveness toward others was only hurting myself, and that I needed to have a forgiving heart. Those words never worked on me before. By seeing the mercy he has shown me, I have felt awfully small in my unforgiveness toward others.

You didn't say directly MY H was in denial, this is what you said (in what I thought was regarding BH):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the biggest mistake that can be made is to say, ok, your forgiven, lets pretend this didn't happen. I will have contact and fall in love, or I will raise this oc, and pretend it is mine. Talk about living in denial. That will explode one day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may seem like pretending, but in our situation, it is anything but pretending. It is the real deal, my H is in love with the OC. I am witness to it every day. In fact I could go on and on about how he acts even more excited about this little one than he ever did years ago when we had our children. I don't get it, really. I have even been meaning to write a post to Just Learning to see what he makes of my H and his unusual closeness to OC. I'm not making this stuff up. When he calls during the day, the first thing he asks about is OC. He gives me a quick greeting and kiss when he arrives home, then heads past me directly to see OC. He has already bought him a collection of his favorite toys from his youth, that OC will not be able to play w/ till he is 3 yrs. old! I don't see it as denial, because he is fully aware of the possibility of baby being an OC, yet loving him anyway. Again, I don't get it, or how he does it, but I am not the kind of person my H obviously is.

Ok, once again I've written too long a post, and gotten a bit OT, but bragging about my H is easy for me to do. I would give anything if it had always been the case, and I could take back the past.

Anyway, thank you for your kind response.

Take good care.

~autumnday

#824651 12/18/03 06:47 PM
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ps...

What you said about it exploding one day....

I know you weren't referring to my situation. However, just wanted to say that I do fear it all exploding one day. Not in terms of my H turning his back on me and baby, but in terms of what may happen by us not revealing the truth to anyone. I think we are making a mistake by planning to never reveal the truth, but, (for now) my H is adament on this issue, these are my H wishes, and I intend to honor them.

#824652 12/18/03 07:16 PM
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autumn like you my H has taken on the twins (OC) like as if they are his own. He is so obviously in love with them. He treats the boy twin with a lot more love and affection than he treated our son that we had together. In my case most people that know us know the truth. They know that H is not their biological father. But everyone seemed to follow my H lead and when they seen he loved these babies everyone has taken his lead. I think in situations as these you can't lump anything in a category. I think everyone's situations are different and we all do the best we know how to do.

#824653 12/18/03 07:45 PM
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I have to agree with ember that compassion goes a long way--especially toward those of us who are here to avoid affairs and affair-proof our marriages, MB-style...

Going through life looking through a rear-view mirror is not productive.

Yes, everyone here agrees people who have affairs are selfish, yes, affairs are morally wrong, yes, affairs destroy lives and some some, not all, xOW try to cling to a man that was never and will never commit to them ever. And... (?)

All of us here have felt the consequences of affairs. That's kind of a given. But the question now is how do we deal with it in constructive ways? How do we rebuild communication and trust that was broken down to the point where an affair occurred? How do we return our marriages to a loving state? How do we deal with CS issues?

Where do we go from here? How do we live with pain without letting anger and hurt consume us? How to rebuild romance? How do we get to the point where we can enjoy life?

Regardless of contact or no contact, we get to choose our state of mind. We get to choose to live peacefully on the inside or be in constant turmoil over things/people/circumstances we cannot control.

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

#824654 12/18/03 10:33 PM
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BINthere, Thank-you. You have very deep insight.

ember

#824655 12/19/03 11:02 AM
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I spoke with WW on the phone today. She said she wants to talk tonight, and asked if I would come over.

Though I really don't want to see her right now, I am going. She said she can't discuss things over the phone.
Ray

#824656 12/19/03 12:28 PM
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HPK, Good points.

What amazes me so is that many of the people here who speak of God and religion are also making their own rules up in terms of abortion/when life begins. I know of no Christian religion that says life begins when a baby can thrive outside the mother's womb. That is man's law, not Gods.

Gemini, isn't your church christian based? Please excuse me if I'm wrong about that.

#824657 12/19/03 02:13 PM
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Yes, CeeCee my religion is Christian based. Personally I believe a fetus (medical term) isn't a baby until it is born. I said it was my opinion not my religions' opinion.

How can a fetus who can't even think or breathe be a baby?

When I was expecting I always refered to things in the future like this: "When the baby is here..." You know? Before I had him. Most definately in the later months the fetus becomes a baby.... I was trying to say in the beginning....when it's first discovered....it, to me, is a fetus.

Hey, that "morning after" pill could be used in a lot of affairs and I'm sure it is! It's been around for years and prevents the egg from attatching itself to the uterus. Do you think the egg is a baby too?

Sorry, I just don't.

But hey, that's why abortion is a hotly debated issue I guess. I have always been pro-choice on that issue. I find no place in the Bible that frowns upon it.

Then you have your pro-lifers who kill for justice when an injustice is done, death penalty, and I disagree with that too. There is where you kill a living human! Not a fetus. I think that is revenge not justice and perpertrates the same sadness the victims had to the offenders families. Who really wins?

So which is really murder?

So I am opposite of my religion, hate the death penalty (they agree with me there) and agree with abortion.

CeeCee and HurtingPromiseKeeper, you both have a right to your opinion too.

love
Debi

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

#824658 12/19/03 06:29 PM
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gem, I agree with you. I am pro choice, only under 8 weeks pragnant.

Did you know that at one time, the Roman Catholic church believed that a female fetus did not get her soul until 12 weeks in utero, but a male fetus got his soul immediately? Ask a priest.

I got an 'a' in that class in college.

And yes, I have let Jesus into my heart.

Abortion is still being argued, at what point?

IUD's cause abortion, but are also a form of BC.

Where does life start, or when does it happen, is still being argued by theologians.

This website is supposed to be for marriage building, regardless of believes in abortion, or religion. Some might be atheist.

Why are some of you so judgemental?

ember

#824659 12/19/03 07:42 PM
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Is a person who is dependent on artificial support in order to exist in this life, a human being? Do they have a right to life? What if that person was delivered early because their Mother died or had other life threatening complications and was not to be &#8220;born&#8221; for many, many months later? Is this a human being? A baby? Technically can&#8217;t survive outside of the Mother. A hundred years ago, or even 50, would not have. Is this a baby?
I&#8217;m sure there will be as many morning after pills used in non-affair relationships. I am not going there and probably shouldn&#8217;t have spoken up here either.
Yes, this is a mb site. There is discussion about solving marital problems by killing an unborn baby as a solution you&#8217;re an adult problem. I think that is why we&#8217;re discussing the morality of it now.
Sometimes we believe in what is most convenient for us. What makes our lives easier and for no other reason.

#824660 12/19/03 07:47 PM
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hit twice

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: CeeCee68 ]</small>

#824661 12/19/03 08:11 PM
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You know, this thread was started to prevent hijacking another thread. Maybe the abortion thing should be moved also. So while everyone is fixated on whose morale value is the right one, what about how you're doing X-RAY?

mtd

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

#824662 12/19/03 09:55 PM
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First of all:

XRAY, I'm glad your going to talk to your wife. I'm glad your going to talk. It's a start. You just never know how your going to feel later on with healing so why not talk to her now. It's a good start.

Abortion:
Abortion is a sticky conversation. I too believe that it's not up to us to judge if someone does have an abortion, but that goes both ways....even if someone chooses NOT to have one. My personal beliefs have changed on it in the last 10 years. Even so I try not and judge who does and does not have one. Of course most of the bs believe in it so strongly and wish that the ow would of done it. It would also make her life easier as it would the uh. They are in the situation. Just as strongly as the ow feels not too....because they are in the situation. We as ow feel we are correct in our feelings and the bs and uh feel they are right in there feelings.

#824663 12/20/03 10:02 AM
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Well, I went over to the apartment and my WW and I talked. It was not a long conversation, but I think it clarified some things in my mind.

I tried to stay calm, and did til the end when I walked out.

She said that she was sorry and wanted to work on the M.

I asked her some about the A. I asked how long it had been going on, and she said about three or four months.

I asked why she would do this, since she is married to me and this guy had been a real sh*t to her in the past.

She said she didn't know, that she just felt drawn to him and when he started calling her, she just fell into it.

I asked how can I be sure that she won't fall into it again, and she said that she is over him now(I've heard that one before), and won't make that mistake again.

I also asked why she did not tell me he was calling her, that maybe together we could have prevented this from happening. She said she thought I would be mad, which is probably true.

I asked about earlier in our M when she had denied me sex for a couple of months, if she had been having an A then. She said no, but I could tell from the tone in her voice and the look in her eye that this was not the truth. But for the time being I dropped it.

We then got to talking about the OC. I asked her if she had considered what I said. She asked me why I could not consider keeping OC, and I told her that I could not raise OMs child, and that I wasn't even ready for my own child.

I asked what about her, that she had always said she wanted to wait to have kids, why is she so insistant now.

Her answer, and I can't believe she said this, was that OM has been important to her, in the past before she met me, and during the A. She said that she just could not give up a child she is having with him, even if he does not want marry her.

I just sat there in disbelief for a couple of minutes. Then I said that's it then, and walked out.

I think it became clear to me right then that she will never be over OM, she will always be drawn to him, and there is nothing I, or any future husband she may have, can do about it.

I think it's also obvious that she wanted to marry him and have their baby, but he turned her down. They must have talked about it, or she would not know he did not want to marry her.

I don't know what else to say. I don't think she has ever gotten over OM from when they first met. I think something has been going on the whole time I have known her.

I've been a fool. I wonder how many people know about this, and have been wondering why I couldn't figure it out.

I told my Dad about our conversation, and he suggested we get me into some counseling. I told him I wanted to file for divorce right away, but he said there is time for that, let's get my head straight first.
Ray

#824664 12/20/03 10:46 AM
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Listen to your Dad, Ray. He sounds like a very wise man that loves you very much. Please consider counseling with the Harley's Counseling Center, since they deal with these situations all the time.

Ray, take care of yourself. Stay strong and continue to surround yourself with the support of your family.

#824665 12/20/03 11:37 AM
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Ray, I'm sorry the talk did not go as you wanted. I'm a little puzzeled at her reaction to your question about the baby. It seems like she is holding on for the om sake. Instead of because it's what she really wants for her ownself and beliefs. You maybe right about her feelings, but she may also be in the fog still. Your dad is right you should get into couneling. That should be your first thing to do. You should wait for a few months before you file for divorce as you need some healing time and you may just may seem to find you think a bit differently. Also, she may find she thinks differently as this man shows his true colors. I know when I saw first hand what xmm did to me without the knowledge of his w, I saw him for what he is and instead of what I thought he was. Please take your dad's advise for now. Good luck.

#824666 12/20/03 11:43 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">xray:

"I've been a fool. I wonder how many people know about this, and have been wondering why I couldn't figure it out."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WRONG! You have been deceived which is a lot different than being a fool. Being a fool means that you know what is right and yet chose to do wrong [gee that sounds like your WW doesn't it?].

#824667 12/20/03 12:51 PM
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Ray,

My heart is so sad reading what you are going through. You and W are so young to be going through this sort of hell.

But I agree with you about her not being over OM. I agree about your stance towards OC and getting a divorce. Divorce is not really final... if things change, you can always get remarried... I know a few people who divorced and got back together.

I think you are handling this great. I was happy to read that you involved your family. I secluded myself during my exwh's affairs. Once I opened up to my family then I was able to start healing myself.

I wish you all the best in your journey to recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

#824668 12/20/03 03:22 PM
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Ray,

I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Yes it does sound like she is still hooked on the MM. I agree with everyone, get some counceling, it will help you .

Good luck.

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