Pops, I love your faith in your children!!!! Lucky kids!!

I still believe that by allowing oc into the family, it is basically saying that no matter how you screw up, others will clean up the mess for you.

My children were toddlers, under 4. Of course they didn't know about reproduction. However, they would certainly have been effected had he had contact with oc. That would have been time away from them. I believe it is to weird and to strange for these kids to suddenly have some strange child plopped into their lives on a part time basis. They grow quickly and I did not want my chidrens lives upset by all the drama of oc, visits, etc.

Today, they think of the whole affair, oc as disgusting....since it is. They were deeply ashamed of their father and were angry when they learned about all that had transpired. They have a strong sense of right from wrong and see oc as a result of wrong behavior. They would be humiliated if their friends knew. They are teen today and can totally understand the reproductive aspects of this.

I am also friends with women who did contact. They all, 100% regret it. Also, none of them, today have any contact with oc. Their own children were angry, upset, etc. They were so embarrassed having to answer who that child was. One family's children used to say their parents were babysitting, never awknowledging the child. The father would get mad at them for this. They in turn told their father it was oc or them, make a choice, etc. The family fights were on going until finally, he had to stop contact as his wife said she couldn't live with the hostility and she was putting her children first and asked him to leave. The house was a battle ground of anger and hate. No way was him bringing that baby to that house good for his children. They were to embarrassed. So, should he have sat down and told his kids they had to accept oc? He stopped contact with oc. They tried, but their kids paid the price. All of the children did.

So, while I see your point of how children take their parents lead, that isn't true for everyone. I have taught my children that what their father did was wrong. That we, as a family wanted to heal and move on and no contact was what was best for us. I taught them that all actions have consequences. That it was not my or their responsibility to have to pay for their dads sins. They are greatley appreciative that we never had to put up with the visits and embarrassing on going drama.

kt,,,,, i don't know about the difference between men and women. but i think that most all bs's feel incredibly stupid once everything is out in the open. whether it be from just being blind to what was going on or having the realization that although you knew the truth you placed yourself in a state of denial about it.

it sounds to me that you still feel a great deal of pain as we all do at times. heck fh and i went to see the movie "love actually" yesterday ( i know it's been out for awile, i guess were just behind). watching that movie i felt remorse. when the boss's w relized he was having an A and also watching all the love stories and seing the passion each person felt. although i love fh very deeply i haven't been able to find that same passionate feeling i had all those previous years.

maybe you should try putting the continual explanations about this to your son on the back burner. whenever i feel emotions from a trigger i never let the kids know what i am dealing with. in this way i think it has protected them from so much of the drama.

the one thing about kids is that if their parent is a good parent with them no matter how he/she is with their spouse you will never be able to turn the child on that parent. those bonds are extremely strong. the more you bad mouth a parent the closer you will drive the child to them.

lynn,,,,,, the faith i have in children goes much deeper then my own. i have the same faith in all children and i have gained that faith thru my interaction with 1000's of kids for the last 23 years a a coach in little league, soccer and football. i have found that if you give them good guidedance coupled with positive encouragement and add a dash of expectance along with a teaspoon of showing them you believe in them, they will rise to the occassion and perform in ways most parents didn't believe their kids could perform. i have had to many teams to count and they have been overall very successful beause of the above recipe. and basically all i have done is look at their strengths and gotten them to believe in themselves.

as for the rest of your reply i am not offering sympathy but i must say it made my heart ache. to think of all those people living with with all that bitterness. the thought of your kids being disgusted over your h's falling victim to what so many have been victims of. not excusing anything or trivializing anything but the thought of your kids thinking of another human being as disgusting is sad to me. i know you have said that they don't blame oc but you have made statements about them feeling oc is disgusting so many times i can't help but see that as the truth. sad.

also how sad for all those friends of yours that they have and are living their lives with so much resentment. the story about the couple whose c's put an ultimatum to their father sounds like the mother never excepted the oc and placed her anger and resentment of h's A onto the oc therefore passing that same anger and resentment of oc on to her own c's. again i feel that is a sad situation.

i disagree with you that although kids do make up their own minds on things they ( we are talking young kids) do all take their lead from their parents. just as your friends will and would have taken your lead had you accepted oc into your life. you see you took the lead of your now very close friends who were in this place before you. they were very much opposed to it and you followed suit. i will bet you a dollar to a donut had they been accepting of their oc's you would be too. maybe not but then again remember i am one who has thet kind of faith. it's not just in kids.

let me ask you this question since you say that all have to pay consequences for their actions.

what happens when one of your teenage kids injures or kills someone in a car accident where alchohol is involved on their first experience with it? or maybe just one of their good friends has this misfortunate situation happen to them. now are the consequences that they simply go to jail for manslaughter and you disown them as they are now possibly murders? what if the accident took the life of an innocent mother or father? or is there forgiveness somewhere in your heart for them?

after you answer those questions as if it were one of your kids who was under the influence of alchohol turn it around and ask yourself if you could find forgiveness of someone else who took the life of one of your loved ones or maybe yourself. could you or your children find forgiveness of that individual. understand that we are talking of a teenager who this is the first time they drove under the influence of alchohol. as surely we all would have much harder feelings if it was an adult with an alchoholic record.

i think that what i find disturbing is that i think we all understand the differences between a bh's choices and a bw's choices. especially when there are already c of the marriage. but you seemingly have absolutely no tolerance for c in any of these situations.

Pops,
As far as humiliation goes.... my parents divorced when I was a senior in highschool. My Mom had om at every holiday dinner along with my father and THAT was humiliating.

If I had a friend over I remember being totally embarrassed trying to explain and seeing horror on their faces and disbelief that all were there.

There was great resentment toward om for years until he died in the 80's.

When I first dated my H back then he'd comment on how "weird" that was. See? Humiliation comes when family situations are way different than the norm.

Had I married my H and he had previous c's I would have had an opportunity to know and see them first. I would not be humiliated. It would be normal and easy to explain, right?

So what I THINK women here are trying to say is the reason for oc is enough to be embarrassed by having oc around. Oc is as unfortunate as the rest of the affair couples family, be it wife, or children. They all pay a price and move on. Why on earth should the rest of the family continue to be hurt if they cannot accept oc? Apathy is what I use to describe this. Not hate. Just no more feeling for oc than a strange child in a mall or restaurant. See?

H and I decided we wanted our old life back. Actually now all this time later he said he was in a fog over oc and now thinks things are much easier for everyone including ow's c's who still give my H "the finger" if passing by in a car. (the oldest one does)

For us it would have been a disaster and humiliating as for explaining why oc was with us and how oc arrived in the mix.

You can also forgive, but it doesn't mean you'll forget.

I'm 3 years into this and can say without a doubt I would have ended up leaving my marriage if we saw oc regularly...

Hope I made some sense.

BTW I've long forgiven my Mom but haven't forgotten how I felt back then. When om died, we had normal holidays again, just our original family. It's just how I felt.

love
Debi

Alcohol deaths are a sin too, but I'd have to say I'd forgive my son, but allow the law to do justice to a horrible injustice. Just no death penalty from this liberal, not even if I were murdered. My H knows to speak on my behalf and tell the court I was totally against that... just in case....

<small>[ December 30, 2003, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Pops, I respect that you are trying to say how wonderful and great contact is. However you seem to be implying since we choose no contact and that my children find the whole situation disgusting, that is wrong? Just what are they supposed to view an affair as?

As for having us incorporate oc into our family, I ask again, why should my children have to go throught he embarrassment of having oc around?

I disagree with contact. It is hard on the children of the marriage, and asking quite a lot from the faithfull spouse. It is putting the needs of the oc above everyone else, and that is wrong.

Pops, a few more quips.

My friends are not living with resentment and pain. They have healed and moved on.

Aslo, I find you blaming a wife, who had teenage children who were angry and humiliated that their father had his oc at the family home, totally unacceptable. You are blaming the wife??????? Her children were totally embarrassed that their father had a baby, and you blame her? Where on earth do you get that from? THEY, his children and his wife DID NOT CREATE THIS MESS. He did. He then expected his wife and children to have contact and they clearly did not want it. HE was wrong. His children lashed out in anger, as children do, and they finally came to the boiling point. His wife couldn't take the hostility any longer and told him to leave. AND YOU BLAME IT ON HER? I think your sensibilities are warped. She and her children of the marriage had every right to their feelings of disgust. Yet the only thing you find sad is that the children were mad at their dad? Don't you find it disturbing that the oc was put above those kids? Don't you find it disturbing that he would assume his wife and kids would be happy about oc? I really feel sorry for you. I'm not sure if you are trying to convice me how great contact is, or if you are trying to convice yourself how great contact is. I really feel sorry for you and your kids having this force into your lives, with no say so at all.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I will never see the reason for contact. I will never believe in selling out the children of the marriage to the benefit of the oc.

Lets just stop the banter!!!!!!!!

Lynn,you will always see thru your eyes only, i think it is sad that you cannot see anything else. you have not as usual listened to what is being said. he never blamed anyone....but as usual your anger is all that comes thru which prooves a point that you havent forgiven, that does not mean forgotten. i am sorry that you cant see that it can work both ways. you are always telling people that yours is the only way. and everyone else must be living in a fairy tale land. well our lives are not perfect and sure we made choices that have hurt, but things are working out, and if that is what you call fairy tales than so be it, i would rather live in my world in peace than in anger and blame all the time. oh yes this is fullhouse speaking. so i am sure you will either ignore or say something sarcastic because of who i am. i just wish their was more of an open mind that some times they are different answers to situations.

JFTR I don't give my son explanations (I can't even BEGIN to explain this) but I try to help him through HIS anger, mood swings, pain ect by trying to point out the positives. HE FEELS PAIN from this and having OC in our life is a trigger and reminder for him too. All I'm saying is that we can't deny that BC hurt too.

I think that is all lynn is trying to get across too. I've only gotten the impression that she agrees w/ whatever decision is "best" for that particular marriage/family BUT they shouldn't be "guilted" or "bullied" into C if that really isn't right for thier situation.

OC is not a permament fixture in our household. OC HAS to go back and forth between 2 completely different households. 2 different parenting styles, 2 cultures, 2 economic status, 2 different religious denominations, 2 different "positions" in each family (oldest in hers, middle in ours), 2 different family sizes....2 totally different worlds. This is hard on her too sometimes.

This makes a HUGE difference to how our BC also respond to and w/ her. They do not interact w/ her all the time. When OC is not here---she's NOT here, then suddenly she is. This IS disruptive.

I can honestly say I try to treat OC exactly like my own BUT I CANNOT always do that because I know she is treated completely different w/ OW so I have to "cater" to her sometimes. BC are aware of this and bothered by it.

Just because we "forgive" someone does not mean we are obligated to hang out with and be friends w/ them. I could find forgiveness in my heart but not forget, I would expect justice. We do not have to deny something was wrong just because we forgave. Of course I will/would tell our children what daddy did was wrong. I don't want them thinking this is "ok" & "normal". It is not.

The decision of C or NC, I think is LESS about the OC and more about OW, MM & BS. Can you handle OW in your life forever? Does OW still want MM? Does OW want C? Will OW try to disrupt/hurt your family? THESE are the real deciding factors. This is the reality. These are the factors that have caused my H and I to regret C.

AND no one is perfect, I don't want my BC to feel like they can't be "real" or express their feelings, neg or pos. I can't deny to them that this was a painful thing and hide that from them. Of course I wouldn't share the detailed intimacies of this like I would a friend but I am not going to act like this is all "okay", it would be impossible for me and would probably, literally kill me.

I've at least learned THAT this past year and a half. I acted like C was all okay and inside I was dying. H and I were in denial about what this really was doing to our family. While everyone was telling me how "great a person" I was, how "strong a woman" and how I was "handling it so well", I was becoming more and more depressed, anorexic and suicidal, H was becoming extremely stressed, oldest son was having "depression"---a 10 yr old for gosh sakes suffering from depression!!!!! And OC (according to OW) is(was) becoming severely emotionally unstable,even OW says she was very stressed during the same time period and regrets getting us involved! All the while we're putting on our happy faces and displaying our best behaviour.

And your probably going to tell me that I made my child "depressed". Now that we are being "honest" w/ ourselves we are all on a more "even keel", it's okay to say we regret C, we are not "wrong", we are telling the "truth".

We are only telling you what our family has experienced. I imagine, somewhere out there, there are 3 adults making this situation work but I haven't met any. Why did I allow my family to suffer through this? Because I was thinking of "innocent OC" and forgot all about my INNOCENT BC. What!? Am I absolved from C and guilt because I "tried"? I would rather have avoided it altogether, like those who choose/chose NC.

That's all Lynn is trying to remind people of, they have CHOICES. Some people don't believe in choices they only believe in "innocent OC"!!!

Lynn & KT. I applaud you both for keeping this real.
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think that is all lynn is trying to get across too. I've only gotten the impression that she agrees w/ whatever decision is "best" for that particular marriage/family BUT they shouldn't be "guilted" or "bullied" into C if that really isn't right for thier situation.
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IMO...I agree no one should be guilted or bullied. Especially if they are the innocent parties here.
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Just because we "forgive" someone does not mean we are obligated to hang out with and be friends w/ them. I could find forgiveness in my heart but not forget, I would expect justice. We do not have to deny something was wrong just because we forgave. Of course I will/would tell our children what daddy did was wrong. I don't want them thinking this is "ok" & "normal". It is not.

The decision of C or NC, I think is LESS about the OC and more about OW, MM & BS. Can you handle OW in your life forever? Does OW still want MM? Does OW want C? Will OW try to disrupt/hurt your family? THESE are the real deciding factors. This is the reality. These are the factors that have caused my H and I to regret
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Very true statement above.
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I've at least learned THAT this past year and a half. I acted like C was all okay and inside I was dying. H and I were in denial about what this really was doing to our family. While everyone was telling me how "great a person" I was, how "strong a woman" and how I was "handling it so well", I was becoming more and more depressed, anorexic and suicidal, H was becoming extremely stressed, oldest son was having "depression"---a 10 yr old for gosh sakes suffering from depression!!!!! And OC (according to OW) is(was) becoming severely emotionally unstable,even OW says she was very stressed during the same time period and regrets getting us involved! All the while we're putting on our happy faces and displaying our best behaviour
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The very same thing happened to a friend, she acted as if everything was OK. This women had a nervous breakdown. This women had to remove herself, family from this situiation. Advised by her therapist. Is pretending worth your sanity? I don't think so.
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We are only telling you what our family has experienced. I imagine, somewhere out there, there are 3 adults making this situation work but I haven't met any. Why did I allow my family to suffer through this? Because I was thinking of "innocent OC" and forgot all about my INNOCENT BC. What!? Am I absolved from C and guilt because I "tried"? I would rather have avoided it altogether, like those who choose/chose NC.

That's all Lynn is trying to remind people of, they have CHOICES. Some people don't believe in choices they only believe in "innocent OC"!!!
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IMO...You are so right you do have a CHOICE. A right to choose NC and not be guilted as I see here.
Lynn I support you and others with NC.

this is full house again, sorry i am too lazy to change the name,

but does any one read what is written?? this posting was not about contact or no contact. hello can we back up again. why cant the questions that were asked be answered, why do you not read the words that have been written, pops isnt debating the c, nc. he agrees on that, that its the individual families choice, that wasnt the subject. sometimes i feel what is the use in trying to find out things or ask questions, it seems they get ignored so much. oh well, guess i wont write anymore--at least not this year.

so that i dont sound like a liar-----its only 11:24 california time at the moment,still 2003

i'm baack!!!!!!!! happy new year to all

gem,,,,,, first i want to start by saying this is not about c vs nc. it is about the lessons and attitude we pass on to our c's. you have never read a post from me telling anyone who has choosen nc that they were wrong. believe me i fully understand a bs's choice on that issue.

some here entertain the idea that i am pro contact because i have accepted grace into my life. well let me set he record straight for those who weren't here in my early days. my first choice in situations like my own ( where the A is discoveed very early into the ws's pregnancy. in our case about 4-5 weeks) would have been abortion. second would be adoption. third would be no contact with the father if that could have been GUARANTEED. but it can't short of putting him in the ground. which was probaly another option, although a good idea a poor choice from me.

i had no choice but to accept grace or take the highly probable risk of losing every day contact with my kids and placing them into a 2 house family.

so i could have had a very negative attitude towards grace (which if you remember) i had during fh's pregnancy, at her birth and her first 2 weeks or so in our home. i didn't hold her or help fh with her at all. i was holding onto my anger and disgust of her A and grace was the scapegoat.

well i finaly held her trying to comfort her because she was crying and fh was in the shower. that was all it took for me to realize that she didn'tdeserve to be the drum for me to beat in order to get rid of my anger.

one other thing that should be noted here is that my own children had two role models to choose to follow in trying to make their choices of whether to accept grace or not. fh's or mine. fh loved grace and it showed, obviously. although for my sake she tried very hard not to be over affectionate when i was present. i on the other hand would leave the room where grace was and walk away in th stores when people would stop by to see the baby.

my own c's asked me why i never helped with grace.

i will continue later gotta gonow.

I know what you are trying to say Pops. I do believe children get SOME of their attitudes from their parents but there comes a time when they make up their own minds. They also have their own feelings. Just because we "accept" something does not mean that children will automatically be ok with it.

Another example totally unrelated. A few years ago we changed churches from the one our oldest was born into to a bigger one. The first few weeks, if not months, he was absolutely miserable. He cried every week going to his class and he absolutely hated it. WE LOVED it and knew it was a right fit for all of us. No amount of talking, persuading or goading was going to change older child's mind. He wanted his old church back with the small classes and the friends he had been growing up with. Eventually he came around and accepted it and stopped being so upset, maybe because he had no choice.

See our attitude was one of loving this church and everything about it but he hated it and would even get mad that we were going there. Did we influence his negative reaction even though we had positive attitudes about it?

That's my arguement, that BC have their own feelings and attitudes about things too and about C or NC too, sometimes regardless of the parents attitude.

Oldest BC has "accepted" our situation but I don't think he is ready to actually "like" it yet. He can be nice and sweet to OC and even play w/ her sometimes, like kids will when they are together. That shows me that he is begining to accept the idea that this is our life now. BUT I can't deny the pain he has felt and endured by OUR decision to choose C. Oldest BC still avoids OC mostly, that is his way of dealing with it for now, I am not going to force BC to have a relationship w/ OC if he is not ready.

I know this thread is not a debate about C or NC. I know you were exploring the idea of parental attitudes influencing children's attitude towards C or NC and if the BC would fair better if parents had positive attitudes about C.

From our experience I just don't think so. I think there are many more factors besides just "attitudes" that determine if C or NC will work out ok for marriages and families. The attitude of the people involved is just one small part of the big picture.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

<small>[ January 01, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Hey pops, you're right. I guess the very thing you were trying to say somehow evolved into telling you how our son came to his own feelings about oc. Apathy is what I'd say. He's a young man now with a wife and child. He feels that way as does our DIL. I didn't raise DIL, but she feels the same way. Shameful of how my H and ow were so reckless.

We raised our son with Catholic schools and church. With the Ten Commandments. Right from wrong. That is the "lead" he took. When H did this with ow, our son concluded his feeling about oc without my lead. His counseling sessions were filled with agonizing sorrow about NOT wanting oc in his life.

He does not consider oc to be related to him.

He will never seek out oc.

The best way to describe it is he feels nothing toward oc....apathy...on his own without our lead.

Now in the very beginning, H was trying to change his mind. He landed in the psychiatric ward at our local hospital with depression. Now if he took his fathers lead, that would not have happened, right? So during "fogland" my H created more problems and admits that today.

No, you never advocated C. I am sorry your thread went south with that as it was not your intention.

I said it because it was the end result of how our son feels/felt.

Happy New Year to you and FullHouse.

love
Debi

gem,,,,,,,, i understand what happened with your son and that is a shame. i think that in your case the (for lack of a better word) trouble came because your son was an adult who had already had his morals ingrained by his upbringing.

also he had a choice if 2 role model to follow, you or your h. if he followed you he obviously was to old to for you to hide any pain you were suffering. seeing the intense heart ache his mother was dealing with made it easy for a young man to choose nc in order help relieve the pain his mom was sruggling with.

on the other hand also at his age at that time when your h was trying to (i am assuming) convince him tha c was ok, he most likely felt your h was trying to force this on him. and you as a parent know how hard it is to disuade a young person anything. especially if it is causing pain to their beloved mother.

i understand that and appreciate your sharing your experience with me. i was just hoping to help those like kt who is obviously struggling with her older kids in the 11 - 15 age group and possibly open up a conversation with lynn about something other then contact vs nc.

you see with my younger ones they had the choice of following my lead of resentment or fh's. they choose to follow hers. which in turn enabled me to learn from them.

another thing that just crossd my mihd while typing this is that my kids were in a way lucky in the fact of the shear number of siblings they were growing up with. they all ready new that no matter the conception of grace there would be enough love and attention for all in our house. where a family with only one or two kids i can understand those kids not understanding that just because there is a new sibling doesn't mean they will lose their place in mom or dads heart.

i remember when fh was pregnant with our #2 son (my 3rd). she said to me she had no idea how she could find room in her heart to love another child because she loved our princess so much. i told her it as easy and for her not to try and divide the space in her heart, instead just to multiply it.

as for my oldest son and daughter who were very upset with fh's A. they both have forgiven (not forgotten) fh for her actions. neither one has any negative feelings towards grace. and although they have forgiven they still both know what she did was terribly wrong.

kt,,,,,,,, this is exactly what i am talking about.

----------------------------------------
A few years ago we changed churches from the one our oldest was born into to a bigger one. The first few weeks, if not months, he was absolutely miserable. He cried every week going to his class and he absolutely hated it. WE LOVED it and knew it was a right fit for all of us. No amount of talking, persuading or goading was going to change older child's mind. He wanted his old church back with the small classes and the friends he had been growing up with. Eventually he came around and accepted it and stopped being so upset, maybe because he had no choice.
--------------------------------------------

you see with young children we as parents make decisions all the time that they don't like homework, curfews, which movies they are allowed to see and which church we will attend. that doesn't mean we are not considering their feelings on these issues just that we feel there is something more to be gained by our parental judgement.

what choice would i have had if say my 6 yo and 9 yo would have not wanted to accept grace. would their feelings have meant that i stand firm on abortion, adoption or divorce. what about the rest of the family. you see we are the adults and therefore must act like it and lead as such. sometimes life deals you dirt so you have 2 choices either lie down and let it cover you up or try and make mud pie. i choose the pie. and in that choice would take on the role of doing the best i can to make those kids who disagreed with our choice find the positive.

good luck with your family

this is not directed at you kt it is a conversation i had with a friend on wednesday. it has to do with shame and embarrassmnt.

he called me because h needed some work done on his house. his oldest son and my 2nd played ball together and graduated hs 2 years apart. i hadn't seen him in about 3 years.

he had no idea of what had transpired between fh and me or how our life had changed. we started talking about how many kids i had now. he has 3. i told him 8 with the youngest being 2. he got this puzzled look on his face because 5 years ago we had discussed our vasectomy's together. (sorry ladies but what else do men talk about with each other if not sports and their genetals) any how he asked, how? s i simply said that " fh had an A and had a baby fom it". yo know he didn't have a look of shock on his face or actlike OMG!. he justsaid oh andthe conversaion just went on about how do idal with ALL those kids. it was nothing.

you see i told him what happened with no shame and he just accepted it as no big deal. he followed my lead.

i think that there is so much of this type of crap and so many truely horrible things happening in the world today that people don't necessarily look on this as any world ending event. they ill tke from your attitude on this.

if i had made a big deal of the A i am sure we could have gotten into a huge "how do you deal with it conversation?".

i think k said something about taking more the one mistake to ruin your character and a life time to build one. i feel fh still has character as i have spent over 40% of my life with her and know that this was out of her character.

I fully understand about other poeple taking their "cues" from me on how to respond. I've had to deal w/ that over and over since all was revealed.

It's funny (now)but when we had to "tell" everyone (family, good friends) my H would reveal existance of OC and immediately in the next split second they always turned and looked @ me and I had to reassure them that "we" were ok and I already knew about this.

I just don't want my BC feelings discounted or the implication that C will automatically work if I just act a certain way. I think our family has acted these "certain ways" and we have all still been hurt and affected negatively by it. I have tried and tried and tried to avoid this pain for my family and I can't deny that it is there.

Yes, I think things will get better in time as we all come to terms with choosing this path for our life. I only regret choosing the C because of all the pain it has caused up to this point. That is why my posistion is now NC. My H and I have every intention of moving away if things do not improve as we hope. I think OW would really like that too. I think it is a decision all parties would be good with.

And I think things would have been very different had everything been upfront from the very beginning and maybe if we had been involved from the beginning but also who knows if our marriage could have handled it as well back then considering we can barely handle it now.

I know what you mean and I think it may be true for some things but just not in this case, it's an added complication w/ an older child AND an unwilling OW.

Concerning the OW, I had many opportunities to be the "adult" here and have taken them but I cannot control OW actions and she has not always chosen that. These are the different factors that can influence a decision of C or NC.

The fact is bad enough but throw in all these other variables and you can have a recipe for disaster no matter how much you try to be "positive" about it.

I think it would naturally work out better if the OC is in your own home. Having a great dad of my own (from birth)who was not a bio(but not due to A)I can really appreciate the love you have for YOUR daughter, grace.

Hi pops & fullhouse,

Good topic, pops.

I've learned a lot, even if it's gone off course a little.

I like what pops said about choosing to turn life's dirt into mud pie, instead of being buried by it.

It's evident Grace has such a nice family with all of you. I've wondered though, what is it like for her when she is w/ x-om's family? He is married, right? Does he have children? How does his BW handle it all?

I've been curious about this ever since fullhouse mentioned something about x-om seeing it as his job to "help" unhappily married women. He sounds like someone who has not tried to turn his life around like fh has.

Just wondering if Grace is treated so well when with him and his family.

Is it difficult to let her go to him? I would imagine it would be.

If these questions are too nosey, it's ok, no need to answer.

Hope the two of you had wonderful Holidays, and I wish you all the best in 04'.

Take good care.

~autumnday

autumn,,,,, at 1st it was very hard for fh to let her go with om. it was also har on me as i had become very attached by that time (grace was about 16 months). om was going to stay away until cs became court ordered and then he and his w wanted something for their money, visitation.

i was their to hand grace over as it was to hard for fh. we always trie to make it as easy on grace as possible. i would play with hr and make sure she was in a good mood when om arrived. as opposed to say waking her up from a nap by buckling her into a strangers car.

i can only assume that om's family treats her with a lot of love an attention as now she just walks over or lets him tak her with no crying. sometimes she still cries when fh hands her over. but those times are few and far between. between meand all our other kids it is very seldm that fh has to handle the transfers.

om has 2 kids with his w plus 1 step daughter. his kids are 11 and i think 4 and the sd is 14 or 15. she goes to school with my son and her mom says sd thinks my son is cute. this could turn into a real can of worms.

they all seem to traet her very good atpick ups and drop offs. i think that if they were not grace would have reservaions and cry when picked up.

i had about an hour talk with his w one afternoon when she came to pick up grace. afterwards i felt much better as i had never spoken to her before. we talked about views from both sides and that we each have to remember that there are many people involved that had no choice in creating this situation. also i asked her how she felt about grace. she replied that grace didn't do anything wrong.

grace goes for her first over nighter next weekend and fh has been on pins and needles for the last 2 months because of it. this has caused some friction between her and i as i feel she should be able to handle it better. grace will be picked up on saturday mornings as usual at 9 and instead of returning saturday evening she will stay at om's house until sunday evening at 6.

bottom line from what i see is that om and his family really care about her and treat her very good when she away with them.

on the other subject his kids seem very glad to see her and show no signs of depression or anger when they come to pick her up or drop her off. but i am not around them except for those brief times so i can't speak with authority. one thing i did ask his w during our talk was how their kids have accepted grace. she said they can't wait for her to visit. maybe they also followed a positive lead.

Pops, I can totally understand FH's feelings on letting Grace go over night. It will get easier as time goes by. The first few times my twins had to spend the night with there dad whom I was married to it was the hardest thing in the world. I called them often and kept telling there dad that if they wake up in the middle of the night to call me and I'd come get them. They were fine. Now later on they pulled that and sure enough he called me but by that time it was you know xh they are 4 years old, and been going to your house now for years and you should be able to handle this (after 3 seperate weekends of waking up to go get them). I think it's hard for any mother to let there child go especially that young.....mine were 3 when we split up. That was hard enough. She will get use to it......be patient. It's her motherly instint to do this. If you two would of seperated I'm sure she would of felt the same way even at there age....JMO.
Mary

pops~

I can understand fh being on pins and needles approaching Grace's first all nighter. I would be too. For good or bad, we women are kinda wired that way.

I admire both of you. I can't imagine having to "share" autumnboy with anyone, including x-om. Thankfully for us, he has never reappeared to see if baby was ever born.

It is good to hear that your x-om's BW is able to view Grace separate from the ugliness and the betrayal of the A.