There's a lot of talk on another thread about abortion.

Here is my question...how can an OW have such low moral fiber, and no respect for a marriage or herself....and then turn around and say that abortion is against her morals/religion?!

Garden please don't take this as a flame, but the same thing could be said about the bs reasons for abortion. I'm really not flaming you.....you just asked. What was done was wrong. It was very wrong. But in my feelings and how I was brought up (knowing that an affair was really wrong) abortion is wrong very wrong too. I stated that I feel differently about abortion than I did 10 years ago. I went through major infertitlty to have my twins with my xh. I have pictures of my kids as embroies. I heard there heart beat at 5 weeks pregnant. They were living beings inside me. As soon as there heart started beating they were real. I heard this one that I'm pregnant with at 6 weeks pregnant and it was very real. I know especially with my twins that they are/were a gift to borrow from God. At anytime he could take them from me God forbid. It took a lot of hard work to bring them into this world. It took a lot of emotional distress to bring them into this world. My thoughts are that for what I've learned through trying to have my twins that babies are a gift and abortion is not an option of any sort. That every child is a blessing, no matter the circumstances, or how they were concieved. I know you as a bs can't see that and I'm sorry. But it also goes back to the ow can't see how the xmm can do some of the things he has done either. Don't you think it's cirucmstances that bring us to the conclusions we have today? Also want to add that I as an xow have a whole lot of respect for myself. I'm not proud of my actions and am taking responsibilty for them....it's a lot more than the xmm who may I add is a man of God has done. He has lied to both of us, and is still lieing to his wife. I maynot be proud of what I did, but it's done, I've been forgiven and I have my self respect. My father who is not one to condone abortions was the first to tell me I better not do anything stupid and have an abortion because of the circumstances. He was most certainly not happy with me for the affair, and did give me a sermon on it, but was not going to allow me to make anymore additonal stupid mistakes.

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

Maybe she is using religion or morality to explain her natural desire to become a mother. You know that motherhood is hardwired into the majority of women's brains and it tends to kick in big time when they become pregnant. Abortion is anathema to motherhood.

I know what I did by having an A was wrong. I live with what I have done to not only my family, but XMM marriage every day. But if I had to add abortion to it. I don't think I could handle it mentally.

It's just too bad that everyone can't get their morals in order.

Does pregnancy suddenly cause an OW to grow a conscience?! Shoulda thought of getting a conscience before having an affair.

Well I see that abortion is ending a (potential) life. It's final, it can't ever be rebuilt. An affair is not even in the same league - people's dreams may die, but with a lot of hard work and determination it can be overcome and rebuilt.

Placing death or murder or anything horrible like that as a comparison for an affair seems a bit harsh.

If I could choose between one of my children dying and my H cheating on me a thousand times, I'd choose the latter every single time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's just too bad that everyone can't get their morals in order.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got mine in order <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A bit late, but they are in order. I learned from what I did and I know for a fact that I will never do it agian. An pregnacy had nothing to do with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gardenbunny:
<strong> It's just too bad that everyone can't get their morals in order.

Does pregnancy suddenly cause an OW to grow a conscience?! Shoulda thought of getting a conscience before having an affair. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Garden, I had morals before and after. I made a mistake. I guess once someone screws up they screw up and are doomed for life uh? I guess because it was someone else's husband they should just forget about what they feel and do what is best to make the xmm and his wife's life easier? Forget about ow feelings on the abortion issue and who is just going to be there for the ow to help her understand her own feelings of what she has done? You and xmm sure are not. Have you no forgiveness in your heart?

The biggest problem I see with this line of reasoning is that it assumes that once a person commits any immoral act, then there's not reason to continue to behave in a moral manner at all.

I know you're hurting gardenbunny, but let's try a different context.

Say I committed a bank robbery and no one got hurt. Do I now dispose of all morality and commit murder with my next robbery? Do I not even have the option of saying that I won't commit any further robberies?

What about speeding tickets? If you've already gotten one ticket, it proves you are a poor driver so why should even worry about trying to drive under the speed limit from now on?

I think you can see that outside of the context your situation, this sounds like pretty flaky logic.

Now, bringing it closer to home. Assuming your H is trying to repent and recover, this logic would imply that since he was unfaithful to begin with, that further immoral action wouldn't matter. But, of course, you know it does.

So, yes, people who behave in immoral ways can suddenly "grow a conscience." That's what I did when I ended my affair and went back to wife.

Low

GardenBunny,

You asked a very good question, but I think the basis for your question is flawed. You assume that "logic" plays a major role in all of this. I would suggest that "logic" as you, I, or anyone who is not in the MIDDLE of such decisions would like to exercise is not present.

But, permit me to introduce myself. I am a male. I have NOT had an abortion, I have not been pregnant. My W has not had an abortion (that I am aware of anyway). So I am NOT going to justify or vilify the decision, but I would offer for your consideration some of the strangnesses that occur with our laws and "moral" judgements.

Consider that in CA right now a man is going on trial for HIS life for TWO murders: his W and the unborn child she was carrying. Consider in CA abortion is legal, and they are trying to figure out how to get "partial birth abortion" back. Consider that in many states if you have an automobile accident and a fetus is killed you can be charged with manslaughter, but abortion is legal.

Consider that if you are dying a horrible and painful death from something such as cancer, you cannot DECIDE to end it, but you can decide to have an abortion.

I won't argue either side, but I would argue that none of this is very consistent or logical. I have my own religious beliefs and frankly I am glad they have never been tested, because I don't know what I would have suggested to my W when she had an amnio and our youngest would have been determined to be born with a very severe handicap. This did not happen, but I would be less than honest with you if I said I knew what I would want done, or what my W would have decided.

I am not pro-choice because I don't like the politics of the people pushing it, yet I feel that given our ability to test and measure that choice should be an option, not for birth control but for other medical situations.

I find it interesting that when I coach children in sports I must carry medical release forms for each child, yet when my daughter was a teenager or younger she would not have to tell me nor would the hospital inform me if she decided to have an abortion.

So GB, the "logic" of all of this is pretty "illogical". I do think that needtomoveon and others make a good point, that people learn from their mistakes, they can and often do become "moral" in their life after making an "immoral" decision, and that forgiveness is the key to a lot of this mess.

History is filled with failed men and women, that turned out to be very "moral" and good people. So, I suspect that answer to your question lies in the fact that "logic" is not applied and that people do learn from their mistakes and become better people.

Hope this helps the discussion along.

God Bless,

JL

I think the other thing that seems apparently missing in these threories, is the motivation behind either the affair or NOT having an abortion. Many of us would like to forget entirely that probably both of these acts are the product of powerful emotions. I believe that the majority of women who fall in love with a married man....know that it is wrong, but they are ruled by those emotions, throwing logic and morality right out of the window. We call it the fog....but in a sense it's almost like temporary insanity...not just for the MMs, but probably the OWs too. They leave aside their moral objections on the strength of those feelings....and it saddens me to see the results. Carrying a baby is not much different in that if a mother keeps a child...it's probably more about emotion than morality. We are trying to apply morality when it was never the basis for the decisions in the first place. The OW enter into an affair because their desire to be with a MM outweighs what they know is right or wrong...the MM does the same thing. I don't want to hurt anyone by describing these feelings as "love"...though sometimes they may be (but even lust, jealousy, envy, revenge are very powerful too). The reality is that having sex with a married man or keeping a child has so little to do with logic or morals....that when we try to apply those things....it just falls apart.

Imagine what it would be like if more people COULD stop making emotional decisions based runaway emotions. Decisions that impact the life of so many! What if gratification could be delayed long enough by spiritual strength to avoid this kind of pain and consequence. It would be a different ball game....that's for sure. I wish these were moral decisions....imagine how different they would be if they were. Love would remain pure, marriages in tact, children with parents who rejoiced at their arrival.

So often, this is described as a mistake...and that's accurate. It is a lapse in judgement. It is a failed opportunity to apply logic, morality or ethics to a desire(or other strong emotion). And the tragedy and pain on this board is a testament to what happens when we make mistakes and let our desires have free reign in the world. The saddest part is that children often pay the price for our mistakes *sigh*.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the other thing that seems apparently missing in these threories, is the motivation behind either the affair or NOT having an abortion. Many of us would like to forget entirely that probably both of these acts are the product of powerful emotions. I believe that the majority of women who fall in love with a married man....know that it is wrong, but they are ruled by those emotions, throwing logic and morality right out of the window. We call it the fog....but in a sense it's almost like temporary insanity...not just for the MMs, but probably the OWs too. They leave aside their moral objections on the strength of those feelings....and it saddens me to see the results</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star*fish,
That's exactly what I was trying to say on another thread. I was saying "in the beginning of the pregnancy" and meaning the "fog" is still lingering.

The reason I agree about those emotions is that I have said over and over I would never have a child from an affair BUT I have never experienced those very emotions you speak of WITH another man other than my husband. So how would I really know what I'd do, right?

And JL, we were "tested" on the issue of having a child born with severe defects from some meds I was on in the mid- seventies. We were 24 years young. We were frightened. I was being treated at the Cleveland Clinic Dermatology Dept. and on some powerful medications at that time. Had been off them only a short time and when questioned by my ob/gyn found out the problems they would cause the fetus.

H and I discussed it, and because of my beliefs about a fetus being just that, in the early stages of pregnancy terminated the pregnancy at seven weeks.

We both did/do feel it was the right decision for us.

We were not in any fog and considered everyones future at that time.

Now I had shared that info at one time with ow as she was a friend. In one letter she wrote to me she "put me down" for that, saying no matter what, she'd love H's baby! There is that fog huh?

Also H shared with me about ow's abortion in high school from her now H. They were only 17! Sooooo how dare she say anything to me! Well, in a phone conversation I let her know H told me that information and as quick as lightening she authored a letter of "how could you?" to my H and promptly dropped it off in our mailbox.

Again the "fog" huh?

I was hurt she used my information to try to make me less of a woman than her....she never guessed I would find out about her and was angry my H shared "their" secret.

JL curious to know something.... what political beliefs do you think pro-choice people have that you disagree with? Not wanting a political debate, just asking.

love
Debi

I realize that I'm not in the majority in that I am pro-choice. I see abortion as one acceptable option to an unplanned and/or unwanted pregnancy. I am a social worker who has worked with child abuse/neglect. Have seen horrible things done to little ones. I have been through some very dark times in my personal life, where I truely wish I had never been born, and had no problem with the concept. I may have been a "life-form" in the womb, but I have no conscious memory of that time. "I" wouldn't have known how it was to be "born". So, not a "loss" for me. The concept of "not being" isn't particularly frightening or repulsive to me,on behalf of my "self", personally. I truely believe that every child deserves to be wanted and loved from conception. I truely believe that the decision to continue a pregnancy when that child is unwanted carries a long term price to the psychological development of that child. The resentment, fear, anger often ends up "killing" or severely "abusing" some aspect of that child's spirit, psyche, and/or physical wholeness. I believe that abortion can be a "loving" choice to honor your own spirit, and to release the life force (fetus, infant)to return to "God", the Universal energy, etc I would prefer that women use other forms of birth control to prevent conception. I think it represents less disturbance in life energy for parent and potential child. I realize my beliefs may seem wacko, or "out there", but they are my "beliefs". When I became pregnant by my exWS (long before he was my WS!) unplanned, unexpected, neither of us desired anymore children, and both had acute health problems at the time whose resolution was very uncertain. We made the decision to have an abortion. My WS had an affair with a 22 year old. We were both 47. She had already had one child out of wedlock at age 18 that she'd given up for adoption. She wanted my husband. She refused abortion or adoption. No, it wasn't her fault my WS cheated. She took a gamble that my exWS wouldn't walk away from any child of his. She won, I guess. Their child was born with Down Syndrome. Throughout this mess, my exWS and I attempted to work on reconciliation. I met the baby, spent time with him, felt I could accept and love him. Although, I knew there'd be pain and challenges. My exWS, however, could never bring himself to leave the OW because "I don't think I can trust her to treat the OC right, especially with his special needs." Maybe it was the fog. Maybe he finally saw her true colors. Maybe it was yet another lie doled out to me. So, I have moved on after much pain over a long two year process. Yes, I wish she would have chosen abortion. Their "mistake" (at least on WS's part)has created such long term consequences for so many people (including OC), who had absolutely no say over the choice/decision.

I have advocated my beliefs on this very subject. Gemeni, if you were my BS I would of never done that to you even if I never had an abortion. Even though I believe what I believe I don't judge people for what they do. Before my battle with infertilty I really had no thoughts of the subject in other words I did not care one way or another. It was only after going through the losses and all those drugs in my system and many months of disapointments that I had different thoughts on it. Even though it's something I'd never do now, I feel that everyone has to do what's right for them. I also feel that giving a child up for adoption is the most selfless act a mother can do. I've met many people in my struggle that have chosen adoption and there kids are truely the best gift that women gave them. I know it's something I could not do either. I'm too selfish. In cases of birth defects and such like that abortion is an option for people who choose it. I still don't know if I could do it, but my actions in the last year in a half have shown I learn things the hard way. I can honestly say that if I had not gone through what I went through having my girls, I can't say I would not of had an abortion when this happened. There is a good chance I would of....like probally 98% that I would have. I do feel that abortion is the "easy" way out. I even felt that before I went through my struggles. Even though I had no real opinion on it. Again, I think when were talking about birth defects and worse, that abortion is not "the easy way" out. That is a whole different story. I also watched a girlfriend who carries a chromozone defect to 50% of her kids. On this pregnancy she did not loose it in the first few weeks and they did not catch it until she was almost 6 months pregnant. She decided to have the baby and see what happens and it was the most horrific experience she ever went through. Mia died shortly after her birth and her life was spent on ventiltors and such. It was very sad. The sadest thing I had ever seen. I think everyone has there opinions with situations they go through or NOT. Xmm begged me to abort. We had a conversation months before that about that very subject. He asked me if I ever got pregnant if I would abort. After laughing (the thought of me getting pregnant) I told him NO. There is NO way I'd ever do that. So he knew at least 7 months before I got pregnant I'd never abort if I ever got pregnant. Even with a one night stand. He is very mad at me for not aborting. I also know because of the choice I've made that I'll be raising my daughter alone and I've come to terms with that. We both live in the same city so who knows if we'll ever run into each other. He's doing what he feels he has to do and I'm doing what I feel I have to do. Neither one of us like what the other is doing, but at this point there is nothing either one of us can do anything about it. Abortion is like talking about believing in Repulican or Democratic beliefs it will never go anywhere. That's just my thoughts on the subject......again.

lilymarie,
You gave my feelings on abortion the words I was trying to find but could not describe. It is how my H and I think of abortion also. Especially the not knowing yet, without a conscious from the early stages. That is what I meant all along and you put my description into the words I could not find. Thankyou.

needtomoveon,
As if the affair or ow and my friendship wasn't enough shock to me, her cruelty will always be a deep hurt to my heart as what I told her was girlfriend to girlfriend.

Hey, H and her were smooth liars! I guess it will aways hurt more because I was ow's friend and shared way too many things with her.

You know what? I think it hurt my H more when she used that against me. That's when he spilled her secret abortion out to me, to make it even I guess. That was early on in our attempted recovery and it cut like a knife. Here she was having a child by my H and saying no matter what she'd have the baby!

Knowing she aborted her future H's baby made me insane that she'd continue this pregnancy with my H when she already had 3 kids. H begged her not to do it, as did her whole family! I guess I'm over the worst now, but certain days, especially when we cross paths, I'd like to scream. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> We live 2 minutes from each other.

You've come a long way reading here haven't you?

We all are unique but the same aren't we?

Our situations are similar, yet different...

Alas....all too sad...

Take care.

love
Debi

Gemini, I think I have come along way. Sometimes I wonder though. I've always been a great judge of charater and it's only been in the last month that I've thought back and just wanted to slap myself in the face. There are still hard times but for the most part I know what I'm up against and am ready to handle it. I think with all the harmones going through me it makes it more difficult. I so can't wait to have this pregnancy over and get on with my life. I mean that 100%. I think what has really helped me stay focused are my kids and staying busy with them. Working 2 jobs helps too although I'm so tired all the time. I can't imagine living 2 min., away from her. YIKES!!!! I can't imagine it being a friend let alone a good friend. I've never been very judgamental of people. It's just not me. I've always given people a chance too. Sometimes it does not work out, but at least I've given them a chance. I think I've seen way to much in my life as well. Not that I've done a whole lot, but I've seen. I'd like to think I'm just my Old self again really. I've 2 1/2 months to go and I just can't wait for them to be over. I think it's because I know I'll be finalizing everything with xmm (or fighting to finalize) and then it really will be over completly over between us. And that just makes me feel good. I feel like I've got this cloud hanging over me until that is done so I can go on with my life. It may sound harsh, but it's just how I feel. Thanks for noticing though how far I've come. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

needtomoveon,
I have a feeling you'll get the peace you long for.

As far as giving people a chance before they prove you were wrong, we both did that didn't we?

Ahhhh....we live and learn and just go on.


love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong> needtomoveon,
I have a feeling you'll get the peace you long for.

As far as giving people a chance before they prove you were wrong, we both did that didn't we?

Ahhhh....we live and learn and just go on.


love
Debi </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Debi you got that right on the nail!!!!!!
Mary