I thought I would start another thread on the issue of contact vs n/c so as not to t/jack the one started by Tony.

I am another child (not an OC) who was abandoned with n/c. I do not wish to disclose the circumstances, but I am happy to share how that affected me throughout my life. On an emotional level, it has not been a positive experience and has left many scars that do not serve me well in my R's throughout my life. I cannot blame in any way the person who raised me, because they loved me with all they had, they provided me with everything they could, but what they could never give to me was the feeling of being wholly valued and worthy just to exist. They always tried to fill me up with love, and it was never possible.

I have seen some posters say that they would be happy to sit down with the OC should that child come looking for answers to questions in the future, and that they would be truthful.

Truthful about what?

It would be really interesting to hear what you would say to an adult OC who wanted to know why they were not worth your time and effort (and sometimes money). It may have been a good decision to keep your marriage intact, but are you REALLY going to be able to be as truthful as you all make out? Are you really going to sit there and say to the face of a hurt person, that because the R with that person's mother (or father) was a mistake, that they were not worth your effort even though they were worth your effort of creation? That because the n/c parent had hurt somebody else, the hurt had to be perpetuated on a baby?

What I'm thinking is that the n/c parents are going to be too ashamed of their decision in the future and will spew out justifications such as "I thought it would be better for you" "or my other children" or "I couldn't give you what you needed" or "I thought your mother would find somebody who could give you more than I could". All of these things are said with the opinion in mind that n/c was BEST for the child, when we all really know who it was best for. Let me tell you, abandonment has not helped me in any way whatsoever, nor was it "best".

None of those excuses and justifications are worth anything.

Will you be willing to say "I never wanted you, I thought you were a mistake, and I never loved your mother (or father)?"

Mostly, on here at least, we're talking about family people. People who earn a living, who should be mature enough to know what a child means (because they already have them) and to know that love and consideration cost nothing monetarily.

Your insights would be appreciated.

Still Trying, I applaud you moving to a separate thread--good job!

Do you really want to hear from people? I don't think I will make a difference to you and your hurt, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

1. You're absolutely right. "Abandonment" is usually not ideal for the child. There WILL be emotional scars to one extent or another, depending on the child's personality, their other supports, how the custodial parent handled it, etc. etc.

2. But that does NOT preclude the possibility contact would ALSO cause emotional scars! Sometimes we're chosing between two BAD choices. No one has a crystal ball to see which will hurt less in the long run.

3. When people sin/do-wrong, the outcomes aren't gonna be good and innocent people WILL be hurt.

4. Not every missing parent will "justify" or "excuse" themselves. Some will say "I'm sorry for your pain. I did wrong and this situation is the result."

5. There's probably a side of the story the child doesn't know, which may OR may not make abandonment more understandable--but will the grown child be willing to listen and consider a new point of view? What if the custodial parent should share the blame, or even HID the kid? [I've got examples, adulterous and not] Willing to consider that? No one is perfect.

6. Grown child may only want medical information, or a picture, or is curious about ancestry--don't assume everyone has the same questions. They don't.

7. "Love and consideration cost nothing monetarily." But they DO cost time and emotional commitment!! Time and commitment subtracted from somewhere/someone else. Time and commitment that require interacting with the custodial parent as well, and THAT cost may be too high. What about long-distance parenting situations?

8. This site is Marriage-builders. It's not about putting OC first.

9. EVERYONE has hurt in their life somewhere, sometime.... sickness, addiction, death, abuse, abandonment, betrayal, etc. of parents, children, spouse. (Even adoption holds the hurt of "unknowns" but isn't necessarily bad.) You're rarely the worst off on earth! So bare your hurts with dignity (sometimes counseling!) and carry on.

I do NOT say that to minimize the hurt of abandonment or adultery or any other hurt. Grieving is a critical process, but at some point the hurt is integrated and life should go ON without dwelling in misery, blame, and unforgiveness forever.

You're still who you are due to your hurts and experiences, but tomorrow, be open to new possibilities.

Jenny, some interesting points. Thank you.

I think the custodial parent would share the blame for causing any hurt to their child (is there a parent out there who doesn't feel guilty about something?), however, that doesn't release the other parent from their responsibilities.

I don't buy the idea that love and consideration take away emotional and time commitment from anybody else to any great degree of significance. If we really believed that, as parents, we would never have more than one child, or in fact have any child in the first place (so as not to take away time from our spouse).

"I'm sorry for your pain. I did wrong and this situation is the result." Well silly old me as a BW - That was what I needed to hear from my H to make it all better and to accept what happened. As an adult I haven't been able to deal with this and I am just as responsible for the state of our marriage as he is. However, a child is not responsible for the crappy situation they are born into. The apology wouldn't cut it for 20 years of abandonment. It certainly doesn't cut it for infidelity anyway.

I do want to say that it is a very tough situation for those spouses who have had this forced into their lives by other selfish people. I can well understand how n/c would be the best option for the BS's, but how do the WS's live with themselves???

ST, very frustrated. Had a long reply ready, then my computer shut down. Included two "abandonment" stories.

But you know what usually happens when I tell our story? I'm either ignored, or a person like yourself will say something like "oh, THAT makes sense, but I'm not talking about a case like YOURS!"

Balony! Quit lumping ALL no-contacts in the same club, then we'll talk. There are so many different stories, so many complications, so much nutty behavior...

Don't pretend sharing custody doesn't take time! Sometimes it works, when homes aren't too far apart and adults can be civil, but distance and relations between adults matter A LOT--why pretend all situations are close and civil?

How can you play judge and jury to ALL no-contacts without hearing some of our stories? Do you just not care about reality, nothing could ever change your mind? And if so, why BOTHER with the thread??

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

I am a BS. AND the grand-mother of a four year old OC. The child was born AFTER my sons marriage to my now daughter. You must understand this girl is now not just a daughter-in-law, but my child too. I love her just as dearly as my own children.
My son didn't know of this childs' existance until he had been married for two years.He is now paying support. My son and his family live 12 hours from here. They have given me two beautiful grands that I cherish with all my heart. Although this "other" child lives somewhere in MY community, I have never really felt the need to connect with this boy. My son wishes this so called "no-contact". It is his child and he had the right to make the decision, not I, and believe me, we all discussed the issue thoughly. He felt that a mistake make one drunken night a few weeks before his marriage should not always be held in front of my daughter to cause her pain and anguish. I'm proud of him for the honour he has since given his wife and the fidelity he has shone since his marriage.
Sorry, but sometimes there is just not the connective feelings for the illigitimate children for grandparents as there are for the children born in the marriage. perhaps it is because of the values and morals taught by my parents generation. I do not ill-wish this child. I just feel no urge to build a relationship with him... unlike the other two children born of the marriage.
Possibly, since I was betrayed years ago, my feeling are somewhat skewed. Not toward the child but toward the woman who is his mother. I simply do not wish to associate at ALL with that type of person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tomstrueluv:
<strong>I simply do not wish to associate at ALL with that type of person. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">please, please don't take this wrong... you are associating with that type of person... your son is as much that type of person as the mother of his other child... the child on the other hand is not that type of person... the child needs love...

wage peace!!!
oaktown...

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

Excuse me, but go back and read what I wrote again. My Husband may have been a cheater, but my son was NOT married at the time this child was conceived. He was conceived while they were dating however. That to my daughter feels the same... almost.


" He felt that a mistake make one drunken night a few weeks before his marriage should not always be held in front of my daughter to cause her pain and anguish."

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: tomstrueluv ]</small>

Toms, when I read it I thought wow. Again, I understand that part of it, but you did say in your post to assoiate with that type of person. Especially if your son was not married yet, how can you pass judgment? Because your son has to pay child support? Your son has to be just as responsible for that one night stand as the ow. I agree with your daughter in law....it was just as bad. He was still commeted.

ttl,,,,,, i have to disagree with you on the fact that your son is not a cheater. he created a child with an ow a few weeks before his wedding. how is this not cheating on the one he was committed to? was he not in the middle of final wedding preparations with your d when he got drunk and had sex with another woman? what kind of an excuse is "i got drunk one night"? should we not hold drunken drivers responsible because it only happened one night? the night they killed some innocent father/mother driving the other way.

i too had an A weeks before my marriage. it was a rude awakening to what i was putting on the line. i knew right away that it was wrong. i even managed to keep quite about it until d-day and fh's and my life were turned upside down. it came out as a confession on my part to get back at her and hurt her for the pain i was feeling. i am sad to say that it worked. when i told her i could plainly see the hurt in her eyes. even after over 20 years of marriage.

what you and your son are doing is placing the blame of your son's illecit rendevoux (sp?) on that child.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. This has never happened to me, so I have no idea what I would do.

I do have a son-in-law, divorced now because of my step daughter's cheating and having her lovers son. My son-in-law somehow has taken this child into his heart. He and daughter and my grandson are now in Texas, visiting family. This man has become the father my grandson needed. Biological father has never seen him.

My grandson is having a happy life and now has a wonderful family. Yes, the circumstances of his birth were awful, but this good man has turned it all around.

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: cherise ]</small>

No, pops, you misunderstood me. I am definately not placing any blame on that child. The child is truly the only innocent one in the entire equation.
Certainly my son is not blameless. He made a very poor choice. But, he was only 18 and heck, I make mistakes myself, although not of the caliber as he, everyday.
But, never the less, this is HIS CHILD, not mine and having raised him to (under most circumtances) make rational and reponsible choices, what right do I have to second guess him. Especially since his own father has not been in his life for ten years and has never paid a dime of child support. He was 12 when his father and I divorced and he knows even better than I about the no-contact issue. He also knows that my present H has been a DAD to him while my ex simply walked away from my boys' with no regrets, it seems.
He made the choice based on his and his wifes needs. And I respect the fact that he is determined to protect his wife and the children of the marriage.
The mother of this child was a close personal friend of my daughter. She HAD to have known the devestation this would cause. And the very fact that she did not reveal that it was my sons' biological child for 2 years after, when she needed money, says something also.
Now my kids have made the decision based on what is best for THEM. The family unit. Sorry, if this is contrary to some. But it is what they feel is best for their marriage. And I support that.

Consider in ttl's story that bio-dad lives 12 hours away from OC. Even IF he tried visitation, don't you think that would take a lot of time and energy (and transportation costs)??! Would OC enjoy shuttling back and forth long distances frequently? And if it wasn't frequent, if he still only saw "dad" 1, 2, 3 times a year, would a "barely there" relationship be worth it? A dad you rarely see, can't go to your school functions, etc.? I know several kids of divorce who hate having to leave their HOME and friends and only visit dad because it's required of them.

Throw in the family's discomfort with the situation, and maybe the kid's better off with a stable mom (who hopefully finds a nice step-dad).

Mom obviously wasn't looking for dad to play dad, since she didn't tell him for two years--she just wants the money. [She may or may not have gotten pregnant on purpose. I know two women who used one night stands to get pregnant with no intent to tell the man.]

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

The first thing that comes to mind to me is that the woman in TTL's situation may have tried for 2 years to make it without hurting anybody, but for some reason DID need assistance eventually. That she needed financial assistance is perfectly OK - and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the father of the baby to pay it.

It seems really sad that the OW "should" have known how much devastation was going to be caused, but there is not the same expectations on the person who cheated. If the OW was drunk too, is she totally absolved? Not that I would expect an 18 year old to do anything differently. Maybe the father's abandonment has caused many deep issues such as an 18 year old wanting to get married in the first place! (Just a thought).

He was old enough and sober enough to have sex. ?

I still don't see how distance has to affect care and concern. If the marriage broke up and either one of the parents moved away for work, say, does that give them permission to drop out of their children's lives?

I wouldn't expect a grandparent to be necessarily concerned about an OC, I was talking about abandonment from the person who caused the child to exist in the first place.

In fact, an 18 year old having children within 2 years of marriage doesn't sound mature at all.

"I still don't see how distance has to affect care and concern."

ST, GET REAL! Define care and concern. Are you talking about visitation or NOT? How often would you be willing to drive 12 HOURS--twice per visit--with various young children? How often could you afford to fly, with or without child (on top of child support!)? Would you leave children of the marriage behind to go see other child? What would that do to them and your marriage?

My DH has been active duty military for nearly 20y. The military has a divorce rate of about 75%, and there's deployments to consider too. I see many children in long-distance situations of various sorts that you apparently can't even imagine. When a man can only see his child maybe once a year, how close do you think they'll be?

Long distance is insanity. One of the reasons I stayed in my marriage and made it work is if I divorced, my children would very rarely see their military dad.

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

I do have to agree with the long distance thing about how hard it would be. Under these hard circumstances. I have seen famlies do it though. I have girlfriend that moved away from xh and did it 2 or 3 times a year. Now her kids were like 6 or 7 and 9. She flew herself with the kids to drop them off at there dad's. Until they got a little older. At her expense and she was far from rich. But she made it work. Again it was her x though and not a xmm.

NtoMove, thanks. Like you said, those were kids who already knew both parents, during marriage, and no other children to consider. Many divorced parents won't even consider moving away so they don't have to do long-distance shared custody: it's very hard on everyone.

I agree with some points made, like a single mom's need for financial support, like both parties being responsible for the kid to begin with, like the wonderful virtues of any wandering spouse who can help raise an OC as their own.

But there are also situations where there is no contact for reasonable reasons: distance and can't get along with custodial parent being top two.

I can understand long distances being a problem with visitation. There are many ways to keep in regular contact - email/webcam/letters & photos/telephone and perhaps a single visit for a few weeks on the summer school holidays each year. Does that sound unreasonable?

Part of my family has always lived overseas, yet we still send each other invitations to events such as weddings, big celebrations etc, even though we all know very well that we can't attend - it's just being included that matters, "as if" you were not too far away.

Jenny, you have made some excellent and very valid points, no matter, some will just ignore it and not face the hard facts.

If, being faced with the adult OC, you told them you thought it was for the "best", it doesn't matter who's best you were thinking of, OC or BC or even BS, that is your reason. It's not an excuse, that is a valid reason.

I am speaking from experience here also, both as a child who can be considered "abandoned" and as a BS with an OC in my life.

As a child, it is a little different because my mother was a teenage mom not an OW, and the sperm donor abandoned her. My "dad" was there to help her pick up the pieces, grow up and have a "real" life with an intact family. My parents told me of this biological glitch when I was 9 or 10 yo. As a teenager I was more affected by it, negatively, of course and had dreams of my sperm donor being rich and "really wanting" me and coming to rescue me! lol I did meet him once and he DID say he thought it was "best for me" and he knew of my dad. My mother seems more hurt, rejected and affected by him then me. As an adult, I can see it for what it is and I don't care. The sperm donor and my mother were young and immature. They were wrong and my mom chose to keep me and he chose to take off. I have a great DAD and I don't feel "abandoned" at all, I'm not all torn up by it. I don't take it personally, sperm donor had sex with my mother and rejected HER, he didn't even take the chance to know me so I don't really feel it was a rejection of me. And I don't harbor any ill will towards him either, he went on to have a family, from what I know, so people grow up, he's not some "permament jerk" out there somewhere. Maybe if my mom had been a single mom I would feel different. And my mom NEVER went for CS because she NEVER wanted to have to "share" me or give sperm donor any right or justification to me, which I highly respect, she made that decision, stands by it and I applaud her for that. (I wish more OW could be that honest with themselves and leave xMM alone)

NOW as a BS w/ an OC in our lives.....this has been the worst 1 1/2 years of my life! Worse then even finding out about A! We met OC when OC was 4 1/2 yo (in case you don't know my story)and OC will be 6 next month. H and I have 3 BC, one who will be 11 next month, 3 1/2 yo and 18 month old.

Who is to blame for "abandonement" when OW says she wants "nothing" and wants NC? Then who can you blame? IT's always easy to blame the MM isn't it? Is it considered abandonement when OW chooses NC FOR the sperm donor?

Okay, so you can say MM has a choice, what if OW moves and obviously, doesn't let xMM know of whereabouts? Then who is to blame? We are hard working people, can't afford private investigators.

That's what OW did in our situation. Is it all her fault, NO, of course not. H DID know of pg, A ended, OW did not tell of OC birth, contacted MM for a legal reason (not CS, nothing related to that) OC was few months old. H offered "help" in whatever way necessary, was willing to take "responsibility" in whatever way needed/wanted. OW said no, nothing, NC. As a couple, trying to work on our devastated marriage, we felt this was "for the best" for EVERYBODY.(we only had 1 child at the time)

Fast forward a few years, we get sued for CS plus "arrears" for past 2 years. WE took it as a sign that OW would "approve" of "involvement" and needed "help". We were WRONG! OW did nOT want us involved. WEll, she might have wanted MM involved but definately not the whole "package" of wife and kids.

We have been involved w/ OC for this past year and a half and it has practically been H*!! BUT we stick it out. OW has been fighting us the whole way, wanting us to spend less and less time with OC all the while. A week before our "final" custody/visitation hearing, where we had all come to an "agreement" OW comes out with "I want you to sign away your rights" "I will take full responsibility of OC now, I'm ready to do it all on my own!" blah blah blah. I think that's when I first found this site/board.

So now who is to blame? Is this considered "abandonement"? Or did we only half abandoned OC? Or did OW force OC to be abandoned?

Of course this is only our 1/2 of the story, OW would see it different, I'm sure. She would tell you that she "chose" NC for "herself" because she was "too hurt". (because none of this is HER fault, it is ALL my H fault!LOL) (that is what she told me) Is that a valid reason or an excuse? But that years later she was now ready for OC have a "father" in her life(so chose to sue for CS) while at the same time trying to deny that "father" access to his "child".

AND while OC is innocent and not to blame and shouldn't have to suffer......well my 3 BC are innocent too and should not have had to suffer either from this and they have! IT is a consequence that 2 selfish people made and chose. You have 2 choices, worse or worst!

You are in denial if you think it's simpler than that. It's not.

My 3 BC have seen their family be almost totally devasted again (I'm referring more to older BC since he understands more but other BC have also been affected negatively)They have seen and heard themselves, their mother and father be insulted by OW and her family. They have seen us hurt by all this and thier lives have totally been disrupted.

It is not good for a child, any child, to have to go back and forth between 2 homes. That is selfish of any 2 adults, divorced or not. OW says OC is now "emotionally unhealthy/unstable" because of having to go back and forth.

We do not live "near" OW and we do ALL the driving. It is not convenient but we do it for OC, but BC do not like it. But if we do not do it, we cannot see OC because OW will not do any driving to encourage relationship w/ OC. Do you think OW will ever consider moving closer to OUR community? Of course not. And although we actually "considered" it, we realize how ridiculous this would be to move our entire family away from the rest of their family and friends for this OC, who we can only see on regularly scheduled "visits". So that would just be dumb. OW has made it clear that she would rather OC be in daycare then with us.

So we have come to the conclusion that we made a huge mistake in choosing C. We would, from now on, advise any one else in this situation to choose NC.

Since wasting $$$ on a lawyer and finally getting a custody/visitation agreement settled, for now, we are still "in" this but we are fully prepared to end it if it is not "working out" or proves to further be detrimental to our family and BC.

The whole situation is a crock. The children of the marriage are hurt, the wife is hurt, the extended families are hurt with worry for those they love. The OC is not the only person who is innocent here.

If the OC in our lives ever came and asked questions, he would be told the simple truth. There was an affair. It was a huge devastation on our family and no contact with his mother and him was the best way for our family to heal. That many people were hurt by their behavior and when it was all talked out and worked through, no contact for us was what we choose.

As for him having information pertaining to heath issues. His doctor has information that would be necessary for proper care of OC. OC has also been notified of H family illnesses, etc.

This situation is hard on everybody involved. Lots of people are effected and hurt. But make no mistake, the only two people who caused this is the two who had the affair. The mother of the child has to also own the situation she helped create. You can't only blame the father. They BOTH created this. If having a father in the life of her child was so important, she should have made sure is was willing and able to be one without hurting others. Her participation in the affair makes her as guilty as him.