N/C is a crock for the child - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I thought I would start another thread on the issue of contact vs n/c so as not to t/jack the one started by Tony.

I am another child (not an OC) who was abandoned with n/c. I do not wish to disclose the circumstances, but I am happy to share how that affected me throughout my life. On an emotional level, it has not been a positive experience and has left many scars that do not serve me well in my R's throughout my life. I cannot blame in any way the person who raised me, because they loved me with all they had, they provided me with everything they could, but what they could never give to me was the feeling of being wholly valued and worthy just to exist. They always tried to fill me up with love, and it was never possible.

I have seen some posters say that they would be happy to sit down with the OC should that child come looking for answers to questions in the future, and that they would be truthful.

Truthful about what?

It would be really interesting to hear what you would say to an adult OC who wanted to know why they were not worth your time and effort (and sometimes money). It may have been a good decision to keep your marriage intact, but are you REALLY going to be able to be as truthful as you all make out? Are you really going to sit there and say to the face of a hurt person, that because the R with that person's mother (or father) was a mistake, that they were not worth your effort even though they were worth your effort of creation? That because the n/c parent had hurt somebody else, the hurt had to be perpetuated on a baby?

What I'm thinking is that the n/c parents are going to be too ashamed of their decision in the future and will spew out justifications such as "I thought it would be better for you" "or my other children" or "I couldn't give you what you needed" or "I thought your mother would find somebody who could give you more than I could". All of these things are said with the opinion in mind that n/c was BEST for the child, when we all really know who it was best for. Let me tell you, abandonment has not helped me in any way whatsoever, nor was it "best".

None of those excuses and justifications are worth anything.

Will you be willing to say "I never wanted you, I thought you were a mistake, and I never loved your mother (or father)?"

Mostly, on here at least, we're talking about family people. People who earn a living, who should be mature enough to know what a child means (because they already have them) and to know that love and consideration cost nothing monetarily.

Your insights would be appreciated.

Still Trying, I applaud you moving to a separate thread--good job!

Do you really want to hear from people? I don't think I will make a difference to you and your hurt, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

1. You're absolutely right. "Abandonment" is usually not ideal for the child. There WILL be emotional scars to one extent or another, depending on the child's personality, their other supports, how the custodial parent handled it, etc. etc.

2. But that does NOT preclude the possibility contact would ALSO cause emotional scars! Sometimes we're chosing between two BAD choices. No one has a crystal ball to see which will hurt less in the long run.

3. When people sin/do-wrong, the outcomes aren't gonna be good and innocent people WILL be hurt.

4. Not every missing parent will "justify" or "excuse" themselves. Some will say "I'm sorry for your pain. I did wrong and this situation is the result."

5. There's probably a side of the story the child doesn't know, which may OR may not make abandonment more understandable--but will the grown child be willing to listen and consider a new point of view? What if the custodial parent should share the blame, or even HID the kid? [I've got examples, adulterous and not] Willing to consider that? No one is perfect.

6. Grown child may only want medical information, or a picture, or is curious about ancestry--don't assume everyone has the same questions. They don't.

7. "Love and consideration cost nothing monetarily." But they DO cost time and emotional commitment!! Time and commitment subtracted from somewhere/someone else. Time and commitment that require interacting with the custodial parent as well, and THAT cost may be too high. What about long-distance parenting situations?

8. This site is Marriage-builders. It's not about putting OC first.

9. EVERYONE has hurt in their life somewhere, sometime.... sickness, addiction, death, abuse, abandonment, betrayal, etc. of parents, children, spouse. (Even adoption holds the hurt of "unknowns" but isn't necessarily bad.) You're rarely the worst off on earth! So bare your hurts with dignity (sometimes counseling!) and carry on.

I do NOT say that to minimize the hurt of abandonment or adultery or any other hurt. Grieving is a critical process, but at some point the hurt is integrated and life should go ON without dwelling in misery, blame, and unforgiveness forever.

You're still who you are due to your hurts and experiences, but tomorrow, be open to new possibilities.

Jenny, some interesting points. Thank you.

I think the custodial parent would share the blame for causing any hurt to their child (is there a parent out there who doesn't feel guilty about something?), however, that doesn't release the other parent from their responsibilities.

I don't buy the idea that love and consideration take away emotional and time commitment from anybody else to any great degree of significance. If we really believed that, as parents, we would never have more than one child, or in fact have any child in the first place (so as not to take away time from our spouse).

"I'm sorry for your pain. I did wrong and this situation is the result." Well silly old me as a BW - That was what I needed to hear from my H to make it all better and to accept what happened. As an adult I haven't been able to deal with this and I am just as responsible for the state of our marriage as he is. However, a child is not responsible for the crappy situation they are born into. The apology wouldn't cut it for 20 years of abandonment. It certainly doesn't cut it for infidelity anyway.

I do want to say that it is a very tough situation for those spouses who have had this forced into their lives by other selfish people. I can well understand how n/c would be the best option for the BS's, but how do the WS's live with themselves???

ST, very frustrated. Had a long reply ready, then my computer shut down. Included two "abandonment" stories.

But you know what usually happens when I tell our story? I'm either ignored, or a person like yourself will say something like "oh, THAT makes sense, but I'm not talking about a case like YOURS!"

Balony! Quit lumping ALL no-contacts in the same club, then we'll talk. There are so many different stories, so many complications, so much nutty behavior...

Don't pretend sharing custody doesn't take time! Sometimes it works, when homes aren't too far apart and adults can be civil, but distance and relations between adults matter A LOT--why pretend all situations are close and civil?

How can you play judge and jury to ALL no-contacts without hearing some of our stories? Do you just not care about reality, nothing could ever change your mind? And if so, why BOTHER with the thread??

[ December 25, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

I am a BS. AND the grand-mother of a four year old OC. The child was born AFTER my sons marriage to my now daughter. You must understand this girl is now not just a daughter-in-law, but my child too. I love her just as dearly as my own children.
My son didn't know of this childs' existance until he had been married for two years.He is now paying support. My son and his family live 12 hours from here. They have given me two beautiful grands that I cherish with all my heart. Although this "other" child lives somewhere in MY community, I have never really felt the need to connect with this boy. My son wishes this so called "no-contact". It is his child and he had the right to make the decision, not I, and believe me, we all discussed the issue thoughly. He felt that a mistake make one drunken night a few weeks before his marriage should not always be held in front of my daughter to cause her pain and anguish. I'm proud of him for the honour he has since given his wife and the fidelity he has shone since his marriage.
Sorry, but sometimes there is just not the connective feelings for the illigitimate children for grandparents as there are for the children born in the marriage. perhaps it is because of the values and morals taught by my parents generation. I do not ill-wish this child. I just feel no urge to build a relationship with him... unlike the other two children born of the marriage.
Possibly, since I was betrayed years ago, my feeling are somewhat skewed. Not toward the child but toward the woman who is his mother. I simply do not wish to associate at ALL with that type of person.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tomstrueluv:
I simply do not wish to associate at ALL with that type of person. <hr /></blockquote>please, please don't take this wrong... you are associating with that type of person... your son is as much that type of person as the mother of his other child... the child on the other hand is not that type of person... the child needs love...

wage peace!!!
oaktown...

[ December 25, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: oaktown ]

Excuse me, but go back and read what I wrote again. My Husband may have been a cheater, but my son was NOT married at the time this child was conceived. He was conceived while they were dating however. That to my daughter feels the same... almost.

" He felt that a mistake make one drunken night a few weeks before his marriage should not always be held in front of my daughter to cause her pain and anguish."

[ December 25, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: tomstrueluv ]

Toms, when I read it I thought wow. Again, I understand that part of it, but you did say in your post to assoiate with that type of person. Especially if your son was not married yet, how can you pass judgment? Because your son has to pay child support? Your son has to be just as responsible for that one night stand as the ow. I agree with your daughter in law....it was just as bad. He was still commeted.

ttl,,,,,, i have to disagree with you on the fact that your son is not a cheater. he created a child with an ow a few weeks before his wedding. how is this not cheating on the one he was committed to? was he not in the middle of final wedding preparations with your d when he got drunk and had sex with another woman? what kind of an excuse is "i got drunk one night"? should we not hold drunken drivers responsible because it only happened one night? the night they killed some innocent father/mother driving the other way.

i too had an A weeks before my marriage. it was a rude awakening to what i was putting on the line. i knew right away that it was wrong. i even managed to keep quite about it until d-day and fh's and my life were turned upside down. it came out as a confession on my part to get back at her and hurt her for the pain i was feeling. i am sad to say that it worked. when i told her i could plainly see the hurt in her eyes. even after over 20 years of marriage.

what you and your son are doing is placing the blame of your son's illecit rendevoux (sp?) on that child.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. This has never happened to me, so I have no idea what I would do.

I do have a son-in-law, divorced now because of my step daughter's cheating and having her lovers son. My son-in-law somehow has taken this child into his heart. He and daughter and my grandson are now in Texas, visiting family. This man has become the father my grandson needed. Biological father has never seen him.

My grandson is having a happy life and now has a wonderful family. Yes, the circumstances of his birth were awful, but this good man has turned it all around.

[ December 25, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: cherise ]

No, pops, you misunderstood me. I am definately not placing any blame on that child. The child is truly the only innocent one in the entire equation.
Certainly my son is not blameless. He made a very poor choice. But, he was only 18 and heck, I make mistakes myself, although not of the caliber as he, everyday.
But, never the less, this is HIS CHILD, not mine and having raised him to (under most circumtances) make rational and reponsible choices, what right do I have to second guess him. Especially since his own father has not been in his life for ten years and has never paid a dime of child support. He was 12 when his father and I divorced and he knows even better than I about the no-contact issue. He also knows that my present H has been a DAD to him while my ex simply walked away from my boys' with no regrets, it seems.
He made the choice based on his and his wifes needs. And I respect the fact that he is determined to protect his wife and the children of the marriage.
The mother of this child was a close personal friend of my daughter. She HAD to have known the devestation this would cause. And the very fact that she did not reveal that it was my sons' biological child for 2 years after, when she needed money, says something also.
Now my kids have made the decision based on what is best for THEM. The family unit. Sorry, if this is contrary to some. But it is what they feel is best for their marriage. And I support that.

Consider in ttl's story that bio-dad lives 12 hours away from OC. Even IF he tried visitation, don't you think that would take a lot of time and energy (and transportation costs)??! Would OC enjoy shuttling back and forth long distances frequently? And if it wasn't frequent, if he still only saw "dad" 1, 2, 3 times a year, would a "barely there" relationship be worth it? A dad you rarely see, can't go to your school functions, etc.? I know several kids of divorce who hate having to leave their HOME and friends and only visit dad because it's required of them.

Throw in the family's discomfort with the situation, and maybe the kid's better off with a stable mom (who hopefully finds a nice step-dad).

Mom obviously wasn't looking for dad to play dad, since she didn't tell him for two years--she just wants the money. [She may or may not have gotten pregnant on purpose. I know two women who used one night stands to get pregnant with no intent to tell the man.]

[ December 25, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

The first thing that comes to mind to me is that the woman in TTL's situation may have tried for 2 years to make it without hurting anybody, but for some reason DID need assistance eventually. That she needed financial assistance is perfectly OK - and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the father of the baby to pay it.

It seems really sad that the OW "should" have known how much devastation was going to be caused, but there is not the same expectations on the person who cheated. If the OW was drunk too, is she totally absolved? Not that I would expect an 18 year old to do anything differently. Maybe the father's abandonment has caused many deep issues such as an 18 year old wanting to get married in the first place! (Just a thought).

He was old enough and sober enough to have sex. ?

I still don't see how distance has to affect care and concern. If the marriage broke up and either one of the parents moved away for work, say, does that give them permission to drop out of their children's lives?

I wouldn't expect a grandparent to be necessarily concerned about an OC, I was talking about abandonment from the person who caused the child to exist in the first place.

In fact, an 18 year old having children within 2 years of marriage doesn't sound mature at all.

"I still don't see how distance has to affect care and concern."

ST, GET REAL! Define care and concern. Are you talking about visitation or NOT? How often would you be willing to drive 12 HOURS--twice per visit--with various young children? How often could you afford to fly, with or without child (on top of child support!)? Would you leave children of the marriage behind to go see other child? What would that do to them and your marriage?

My DH has been active duty military for nearly 20y. The military has a divorce rate of about 75%, and there's deployments to consider too. I see many children in long-distance situations of various sorts that you apparently can't even imagine. When a man can only see his child maybe once a year, how close do you think they'll be?

Long distance is insanity. One of the reasons I stayed in my marriage and made it work is if I divorced, my children would very rarely see their military dad.

[ December 25, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

I do have to agree with the long distance thing about how hard it would be. Under these hard circumstances. I have seen famlies do it though. I have girlfriend that moved away from xh and did it 2 or 3 times a year. Now her kids were like 6 or 7 and 9. She flew herself with the kids to drop them off at there dad's. Until they got a little older. At her expense and she was far from rich. But she made it work. Again it was her x though and not a xmm.

NtoMove, thanks. Like you said, those were kids who already knew both parents, during marriage, and no other children to consider. Many divorced parents won't even consider moving away so they don't have to do long-distance shared custody: it's very hard on everyone.

I agree with some points made, like a single mom's need for financial support, like both parties being responsible for the kid to begin with, like the wonderful virtues of any wandering spouse who can help raise an OC as their own.

But there are also situations where there is no contact for reasonable reasons: distance and can't get along with custodial parent being top two.

I can understand long distances being a problem with visitation. There are many ways to keep in regular contact - email/webcam/letters & photos/telephone and perhaps a single visit for a few weeks on the summer school holidays each year. Does that sound unreasonable?

Part of my family has always lived overseas, yet we still send each other invitations to events such as weddings, big celebrations etc, even though we all know very well that we can't attend - it's just being included that matters, "as if" you were not too far away.

Jenny, you have made some excellent and very valid points, no matter, some will just ignore it and not face the hard facts.

If, being faced with the adult OC, you told them you thought it was for the "best", it doesn't matter who's best you were thinking of, OC or BC or even BS, that is your reason. It's not an excuse, that is a valid reason.

I am speaking from experience here also, both as a child who can be considered "abandoned" and as a BS with an OC in my life.

As a child, it is a little different because my mother was a teenage mom not an OW, and the sperm donor abandoned her. My "dad" was there to help her pick up the pieces, grow up and have a "real" life with an intact family. My parents told me of this biological glitch when I was 9 or 10 yo. As a teenager I was more affected by it, negatively, of course and had dreams of my sperm donor being rich and "really wanting" me and coming to rescue me! lol I did meet him once and he DID say he thought it was "best for me" and he knew of my dad. My mother seems more hurt, rejected and affected by him then me. As an adult, I can see it for what it is and I don't care. The sperm donor and my mother were young and immature. They were wrong and my mom chose to keep me and he chose to take off. I have a great DAD and I don't feel "abandoned" at all, I'm not all torn up by it. I don't take it personally, sperm donor had sex with my mother and rejected HER, he didn't even take the chance to know me so I don't really feel it was a rejection of me. And I don't harbor any ill will towards him either, he went on to have a family, from what I know, so people grow up, he's not some "permament jerk" out there somewhere. Maybe if my mom had been a single mom I would feel different. And my mom NEVER went for CS because she NEVER wanted to have to "share" me or give sperm donor any right or justification to me, which I highly respect, she made that decision, stands by it and I applaud her for that. (I wish more OW could be that honest with themselves and leave xMM alone)

NOW as a BS w/ an OC in our lives.....this has been the worst 1 1/2 years of my life! Worse then even finding out about A! We met OC when OC was 4 1/2 yo (in case you don't know my story)and OC will be 6 next month. H and I have 3 BC, one who will be 11 next month, 3 1/2 yo and 18 month old.

Who is to blame for "abandonement" when OW says she wants "nothing" and wants NC? Then who can you blame? IT's always easy to blame the MM isn't it? Is it considered abandonement when OW chooses NC FOR the sperm donor?

Okay, so you can say MM has a choice, what if OW moves and obviously, doesn't let xMM know of whereabouts? Then who is to blame? We are hard working people, can't afford private investigators.

That's what OW did in our situation. Is it all her fault, NO, of course not. H DID know of pg, A ended, OW did not tell of OC birth, contacted MM for a legal reason (not CS, nothing related to that) OC was few months old. H offered "help" in whatever way necessary, was willing to take "responsibility" in whatever way needed/wanted. OW said no, nothing, NC. As a couple, trying to work on our devastated marriage, we felt this was "for the best" for EVERYBODY.(we only had 1 child at the time)

Fast forward a few years, we get sued for CS plus "arrears" for past 2 years. WE took it as a sign that OW would "approve" of "involvement" and needed "help". We were WRONG! OW did nOT want us involved. WEll, she might have wanted MM involved but definately not the whole "package" of wife and kids.

We have been involved w/ OC for this past year and a half and it has practically been H*!! BUT we stick it out. OW has been fighting us the whole way, wanting us to spend less and less time with OC all the while. A week before our "final" custody/visitation hearing, where we had all come to an "agreement" OW comes out with "I want you to sign away your rights" "I will take full responsibility of OC now, I'm ready to do it all on my own!" blah blah blah. I think that's when I first found this site/board.

So now who is to blame? Is this considered "abandonement"? Or did we only half abandoned OC? Or did OW force OC to be abandoned?

Of course this is only our 1/2 of the story, OW would see it different, I'm sure. She would tell you that she "chose" NC for "herself" because she was "too hurt". (because none of this is HER fault, it is ALL my H fault!LOL) (that is what she told me) Is that a valid reason or an excuse? But that years later she was now ready for OC have a "father" in her life(so chose to sue for CS) while at the same time trying to deny that "father" access to his "child".

AND while OC is innocent and not to blame and shouldn't have to suffer......well my 3 BC are innocent too and should not have had to suffer either from this and they have! IT is a consequence that 2 selfish people made and chose. You have 2 choices, worse or worst!

You are in denial if you think it's simpler than that. It's not.

My 3 BC have seen their family be almost totally devasted again (I'm referring more to older BC since he understands more but other BC have also been affected negatively)They have seen and heard themselves, their mother and father be insulted by OW and her family. They have seen us hurt by all this and thier lives have totally been disrupted.

It is not good for a child, any child, to have to go back and forth between 2 homes. That is selfish of any 2 adults, divorced or not. OW says OC is now "emotionally unhealthy/unstable" because of having to go back and forth.

We do not live "near" OW and we do ALL the driving. It is not convenient but we do it for OC, but BC do not like it. But if we do not do it, we cannot see OC because OW will not do any driving to encourage relationship w/ OC. Do you think OW will ever consider moving closer to OUR community? Of course not. And although we actually "considered" it, we realize how ridiculous this would be to move our entire family away from the rest of their family and friends for this OC, who we can only see on regularly scheduled "visits". So that would just be dumb. OW has made it clear that she would rather OC be in daycare then with us.

So we have come to the conclusion that we made a huge mistake in choosing C. We would, from now on, advise any one else in this situation to choose NC.

Since wasting $$$ on a lawyer and finally getting a custody/visitation agreement settled, for now, we are still "in" this but we are fully prepared to end it if it is not "working out" or proves to further be detrimental to our family and BC.

The whole situation is a crock. The children of the marriage are hurt, the wife is hurt, the extended families are hurt with worry for those they love. The OC is not the only person who is innocent here.

If the OC in our lives ever came and asked questions, he would be told the simple truth. There was an affair. It was a huge devastation on our family and no contact with his mother and him was the best way for our family to heal. That many people were hurt by their behavior and when it was all talked out and worked through, no contact for us was what we choose.

As for him having information pertaining to heath issues. His doctor has information that would be necessary for proper care of OC. OC has also been notified of H family illnesses, etc.

This situation is hard on everybody involved. Lots of people are effected and hurt. But make no mistake, the only two people who caused this is the two who had the affair. The mother of the child has to also own the situation she helped create. You can't only blame the father. They BOTH created this. If having a father in the life of her child was so important, she should have made sure is was willing and able to be one without hurting others. Her participation in the affair makes her as guilty as him.

The more I think about this, the more I think that the OW or Abandoned Adult Children in pain living with their resentment, shouldn't be lamenting the "abandonment" and No Contact issues here on Marriage Builders where the majority of the posters are Betrayed Spouses who had nothing to do with the conception or birth of the child.

Since most of us are Betrayed Spouses and don't even know the NC OC, debating the NC issues over and over and over again just seems so redundant since nothing we can do or say makes any difference. It's like talking to my plumber about opening a checking account or asking my banker to fix my leaky sink. There ain't no connection...there ain't no obligation.

I suppose since Betrayeds are the closest people to the non-posting Waywards who do not read here, or care to, it seems the OW (or other people taking issue with No Contact and their own abandonment heartburn) feel compelled to dump it on the Betrayeds who are the ones hurt the most by the existence of an OC and the LAST people on the planet to be scolded about this issue that had nothing to do with them.

All this does is cause endless arguing and debate over something that has nothing to do with one side of the coin other than whether or not the Betrayed is reluctant to include OC into her life. And this takes time and the time line never corresponds to the OW's desires and demands. This topic is now and always will be at stalemate.

I guess I just don't get why this is our problem or why OW's keep after us about NC. It isn't our kid or our doing or our decision. I hate it when people who have done me wrong expect me to fix their mess and turn my life upside down to accomodate their intrusiveness into my life. especially when they have made my life a living hell in the process and never gave me or mine a thought or a care.

Now that I am five years post D-day, we are recovered enough where we could be actively involved in our OC's life but the OW never wanted that from us...just the cash. There isn't much we can do about that. Contact is something we would welcome at this point in our marriage but we had to go through the stages of recovery to get to this place.

Catnip =^^=

[ December 26, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]

Thank you KT--point taken. I hope ST and others READ your story and take it seriously (WOW! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ), but not holding my breath.

catnip, you're right on, but you know how much we like to skwabble. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I'm surprised to hear you both feel you could handle visitation now, but we all know XOW isn't interested. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

ST, I'm talking to a brick wall. DH and I TRIED to stay in touch long-distance for the child's sake for 4 years. Like so many others, XOW made it CRAZY. Everything is filtered through the mother. If XOW can be believed, it seems she played up H's existance and absence, almost as it she enjoys OC crying for him--very awful, very twisted. XOW doesn't want ME to have anything to do with the situation. H and I were sending things together by joint agreement, but when H deployed, XOW emailed that things sent by me (my handwriting, both our names) had no meaning for them, that only H matters, only H should contact them, I should stay out of it, etc. etc.etc. There's much more insanity, but the last straw was when XOW sent pictures of OC with nasty sarcastic comments on the back AND a picture of a location she'd had sex w/H years earlier (with comment!)! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I REGRET contact. Contact only gave fuel for XOW to make OC cry. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> We cannot save OC from her mother, but we can save our family from her!

Another case I know involves an ex-wife who threw away long-dist. dad's letters, never let him talk on the phone, made him look bad, etc., and the one time dad had visitation, she called the cops and pretended it was a kidnapping! Gee, I wonder why he gave up?

Your nice relatives overseas and this stuff is NOT the same, ST. Please face reality.

[ December 27, 2003, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]

Jenny, why do you keep putting in snide remarks towards me? If you don't like the topic, don't read it.

As for your situation, of which I know ONLY what you've written on this thread, I'd say you and your family have tried to do the decent thing and been wrongly treated in return. At least you tried, and I don't think people can do more than that. The mother of the OC has not done right by her child, when you clearly have.

All of the things I've said - you've done with the OC in your situation - so you MUST agree and share my principles, no? If so, why do you continue to insult me? Is it something you see in yourself that you don't like about me?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ December 27, 2003, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Still Trying ]

Jenny, What's up??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you really want to hear from people? <hr /></blockquote>Wasn't it you that said, be open to new possiblities?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you just not care about reality, nothing could ever change your mind? And if so, why BOTHER with the thread??

<hr /></blockquote>Who's reality are you talking about?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ST, GET REAL! <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Your nice relatives overseas and this stuff is NOT the same, ST. Please face reality.

<hr /></blockquote>Again, who's reality Jenny? Must it be your reality, otherwise it's not reality?

I don't think so.

Well you already know my feelings on this, but I will go further on this. KT, the xow is wrong with what she is doing with her child. It does not matter if it's her xh or xmm or one night stand etc. If she went for cs, then she has to take whatever comes with that and live with that. You can't have your cake and eat it too. With my stbxh, I share transportation. In fact I do most of it. No, we don't live in another town, but still it is not always convieant for me to go over to his place to pick my kids up but I do. It should of been put in your court papers seeing you don't live in the same town that driving is shared. As far as the child haveing to go to two homes, well I'm sorry, it can work out and is not as bad as that said. My kids know that there home is here with me. But they also know they have a home with there dad. I have primary custody of the kids but he keeps toys and some clothes there and has books etc there for them. Yes it would be best if our marriage could of worked out, but it did not and they are much happier this way. Yes there are ajustments, but they are working out. I have said this before and will say this again. If xmm decides to have contact, I know it has to include his family. For better or worse, that is the way it is. Unless his w is treating this child wrong I can't do a thing about it. That is HIS family and it's best for the situation. Why would I want him to "sneak" around to see his daughter? It would have to be out in the open and therefore his family is included. As far as cs goes.....I don't blame xmm 100%. Anyone who has kids and is receiving cs knows that it cost alot of money to raise kids. I get cs for my twins and it's not bad money, but between the cost of there expenses his cs does not cover all there expenses. He is giving me what is required of him and that is why I work extra to give them more. A lot of people do it. What's the big deal? I would go after my xh for support just as I will when this child is born. I don't want his life savings, I don't want to take away from his kids, I just want him to help with OUR mistake. I don't care that he is not able to make a decision with my body. He made a decision when he knocked on my door one or two times a week. That is a dead issue. Do I think it's in the best interest of my daughter to see him....yes. He's her father. If the 3 adults can't do it correctly and put her needs first then NO. It won't work. The adults have to be the "adults" and make it work. Which means all have to put feelings aside and do what's right for all kids involved. I've already learned from this site and have figured out there is a 99.9% chance that my baby's father will never be involved in her life. At this point in my life I'm ok with that. I also know it's him and not his Wife making the decisions. As wife does not know a thing. So I look at this as HIS LOSS. I'm sorry if you all don't agree with that statement. I would look at that with xh as well. It does not matter the title.....it's just the way I feel. It's the way I felt before this devastion happened. I think also that especialy in my case, xmm has left me no choice but to go the legal route and expose this. He has ran from this totally. He has said he would take the financal responsiblity. He has asked me for DNA testing through amino. I made 2 appointments and he has not complyed. He has ignored me through them. He is going to force me to have him served and have his family find out that way and spend extra money on attorneys to get him to even take the dna test. Now this is a man I was with for 13 months and saw 2 or more times a week and talked to at least 6 times a day. It was not a one night stand. So why should I allow him off the hook? I may not have the history of the wife, but I still have a history with him. He lied to me as he did the wife. I guess I'm trying to say, no matter what he has said to any of us, there is two sides to this coin. And even though most bs don't feel that the ow is affected or should I say has the "right" to be affected, she is. Feelings are feelings no matter what. In my case, xmm should be thanking his lucky stars that I AM who I AM or I would of already exposed him with all his crap. I won't do that to his kids though. I feel bad enough that it will happen when my daughter is born. They deserve better than that....they are innocent too. But as so many bs have said, I have to think of my daughter.

There are some very insightful posts on this thread. Alot to think about.

Lynng, if nc facilitated this level of healing as you say, I'd hate to know what contact would have done for you.

Oh, I'm fine. I have been reading here for months and am angry that the hurting people here are forced to read and get hurt by the other women whining about their plight, with no thought or remorse as to the harm their behavior has inflicted on others.

They see the obvious pain and suffering and come on here and whine constantly about the poor oc, with out a thought to the wives and husbands here who are fresh at this hurt. They seem to derive great pleasure from the hurt they spew forth. That is what gets my wrath.

As for my own life. I'm fine. I am a very strong woman and have very strong opinions. I feel protective for all the hurting women on here who are, right now confused, hurt and angry. I want them to know that they will be ok. That their feelings are ok. That their anger is normal. But above all I want them to know that it will all work out and they will be happy again, no matter what they decided to do. I don't want to see these people coerced into contact with the ow/oc just to apease others.

Contact would have never happened. That boy is not my responsibility, and had my H wanted contact our marriage would have ended.

If I sound angry it's because I am. I can't even believe that some woman would post on here how awful the poor little oc has it, how everyone should put needs of the oc first. How selfish. I would hate to see some poor hurting woman feel that she has to accept this oc to make life easier on everyone but herself. That is what makes me angry.

Lynn, although a few have, not all have....speaking of ow. Sometimes I wonder if you just read the parts you want to and not the whole post. I don't see myself thinking only of myself and just my child. In fact quite the oppisite. I have put my feelings aside for xmm kids feelings over this. Most here are defined with there thoughts on this, but can at least see the other side of the coin. You on the other hand only see what is best for you and so when someone disagrees with you they are selfish and out for themselves. That in itself is selfish. Don't you think when it comes to ALL OUR children we are somewhat selfish and tend to look out for what's best for them.....and depending on what side of the coin your on is where your choices and reasons lie? Also, just because we have different thoughts on the subject does not make us selfish and just looking out for ourselves. It's just what is best for our situations. It's clear you are fine with all the choices you've made years ago and the way you went about doing them. That is great for your family and it worked for you. It does not mean it works for everyone. What I think of how you handle it matters very little. I'm not involved nor does it affect me in anyway. Nor is it my place to really judge you. Although I disagree with most of what you say I have learned from you and that I thank you for. I just don't understand why you can't accept anybodies thoughts that don't go with yours.

Oh, I agree that we all look out for our own children, that is for sure. I understand that the OW adore their babies. As mothers, we all do.

I was responding to Cee Cee. Her post was so, odd.

I know that their are lots of people with lots of hurt. But what I find selfish is that some people just automatically assume that the only innocent one is the oc. That is where I speak of selfishness. They assume that all the adults need to be adults and put the needs of the oc first. Yet, do not these same adults need to think of the others who are hurt also? It is extremely selfish to believe that one person is the only one hurt, and matters (i.e. OC). These wives are hurt also. They have children who have lives that are also torn apart. The hurt is all over the field here. The oc is innocent, to be sure. However, oc is not the only one. And I find it selfsih that some think that everyone needs to put the needs of the oc first, without thought or care of the other innocent people. It sounds as if once the oc is born, all other people, hurt or not, need to stuff their feelings and set aside their wants and needs so as not to hurt or upset the oc.

I am fully aware the the oc is an innocent child, and can be hurt by this. But, I am also fully aware of my own children and their hurt and their needs. Their needs and hearts are not to be pushed aside. In my home they are the innocent victims of this too.

I have never said OC is not an innocent child, but so to are the children of the marriage, the wife, and anybody who has been hurt and upset by the affair.

While waiting to go to a wedding reception.....

LynnG, my husbands DR and wife have an older oc also. He treats me so softly whenever I go there and she is a confidant. Having said that, it's good to have women like you and Texasgirl, and ember here. You are all way past d-day and have continued on together...it obviously was a choice you and your H made together.

I think for the most part I'd like to leave this site. It sometimes makes me so sad for newcomers.

It's women like LynnG, and Texasgirl, and ember that make me want to stay and repeat my story.

Although all stories are the same, we all have different circumstances.

Catnip I haven't forgotten you! How could I? You were as I am now when you said things could work out. I prayed so hard. I never believed you but it came to be.

Needtomoveon,
Now listen to me as I won't flame you.

We also had men at our childrens births. Husbands, no doubt, but it was a happy time.

Not once was I abandoned because my husband had another woman in his life.

That is how it is for you and I am so sorry for you.

My husband and I cherished the birth of our baby. How sad because you believed a man a mere while and he may not be able to be there for your D. Um excuse me...the both of yours D.

At the risk of sounding redundant, you knew he was married and he was lying to his wife, after all is in the open, why would he protect someone who did what you did? His wife to him now is a saint...for better or worse and she has seen the worse!

See even though there are problems in a marriage, the one who steps outta line and their lover are the ones to get the worst backlash from friends and relatives. Then the WS almost always does what it takes to get back in the good graces of BS and family.... leaving the female op in the cold.

I am sorry this happened to you.

I am not trying to say your feelings are wrong. I am telling you that as the wife of a WS, and three years past, if the WS wants the marriage he'll do whatever to make things right.

As far as N/C....I also feel it's the only way to go on.

To have an oc around to me would be having my worst humiliation in my face.

Sorry if you guys don't agree...

Maybe I'll stick to the private board after this.

I really am sick of the way things turn into arguements about everything lately.

Needtomoveon you will see things differently some day.

Peace and prayers,

love
Debi

***email/webcam/letters & photos/telephone and perhaps a single visit for a few weeks on the summer school holidays each year***

What a stupid idea !!!!!
And just how are these methods suppose to work with an infant or very young child ?!!! Do you expect a 12 month old child to answer an e-mail, read a letter or talk on the phone ??!!!!
All that does is keep MM in contact with OW which is exactly what most OW want anyway and just what the MM is trying to get away from.
As far as visiting goes. Just who is suppose to pay for the cost of plane fare or long distance car travel??!! For many, after cs is paid there is NO extra money for such luxeries. And if the child does come and stay just who do you think is going to be taking care of it . MM ??!! Hell no. The BS is the one that will be stuck home caring for a child that isn't hers and just brings back painful memories.
You all have such lovely ideas of how things would be in a perfect world, unfortunatly this is not a perfect world.
You see things in black and white with no room for the possibility that you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. You are all so anxious to place the blame away from yourselves and to make everyone else in the picture look like the villian and you look like the poor little women that the big bad man abandoned.

hmm....interesting thread. A few things...Catnip, I don't know all the circumstances surrounding your story but had xMM decided on NC and then 5 years later wanted contact I would also say no...I think. I guess it would depend where I was in my own life and if I thought it would be detrimental to my child. There is also the question of what if he made contact and then changed his mind again. Unlike the BS in this scenario, the OW has not had the opportunity to re-build trust with the child's father and if it were me, I would not trust him to be a constant in the child's life. Make sense?

Okay, I am going to be perfectly honest here...I know why xMM and his wife have chosen NC. It is very simple really...he and I can not be trusted together and the set-up we had in place was for him to visit where I live without his wife. There is very little doubt in my mind, and I am sure his, that this would have lead to the affair continuing. The feelings after being together for three years were too strong for either of us to fight. I think we proved that when he came here for the birth...after months of not seeing each other, it took only hours for the affair to start again. The ONLY way to stop the affair is never to have contact again. Not saying every case is such, I am sure most aren't...but in our case it is. Sorry if that offends anyone, but sometimes affairs are about love and profound attraction. I'm not sure if I ever want to risk seeing him again.

One last thing...I agree with Catnip, this debate is futile. In my mind the question I have for the BS is why do YOU insist the WS chose between you and his/her child...if that is indeed the case. Aren't you afraid of future resentment or am I way off base?

ST, the snide remarks are because I'm angry at being painted by your broad brush: "no contact is a crock for the child, AND dad's to blame." As in, "how can H look himself in the miror?"
[Is that not inflamatory?! Read some of your snide comments to Tony!!]

Our XOW blames my H's lack on contact on ME. OC will grow up thinking I'm the big bad witch that keeps her father from her, and the way you talk is not much different. That makes me angry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> and sad <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> . It's lible of character and I'm sick of it.

REPEAT: ...when I tell our story... a person like yourself will say something like "oh, THAT makes sense, but I'm not talking about a case like YOURS!" Sure enough, heeeeere we go again!

Many people in my position, on this board, have tried to "do the right thing" and got shot down by XOW. But YOU started a thread on how terrible ALL "abandoners" and no-contactors are! Don't be surprised I or others feel defensive.

My H's OC will be 10 in Jan. My son turned 10 in Sep. He chose NC because he believed the OW deliberately got pregnant after he told her I was pg and he was ending his affair with her.
He told me she gambled that if she was pregnant he would choose her over me. He told me the only reason he got involved with her was because she represented no responsibilities. He was going thru major midlife crisis, felt he had accomplished nothing in his life at age 38.
WE worked on our marriage, which I think would have been difficult to do if we had had to deal with the OC/OW situation at the same time.
The other thing was we lived in 2 different states. We were in Ky then, she was/is in N.Carolina. Now we are in TX and the distance is even greater. He traveled to N.C. on a regular basis then, and the job he did there was no longer needed.
Now sometimes I feel bad and wonder about that child. I would have/could have embraced her if I had been allowed. However, she is not my concern, she is her mother's child and my husband's child. My responsibility is to my children; ensuring their quality of life is my job.
I did what was best for my children. When the time comes we will deal with the OC. Her mother is not part of our lives. If she wants to visit us we will accomadate her.
NC maybe heck for the OC, but it will be heck for the children of the marriage. Do you think there would not be resentment toward that child for what he/she represents to those children?
There is competition between children who are natural born siblings. The competition between siblings in this situation would be tremendous.
In a perfect world the brothers and sisters would accept each other and glory in their relationship. But we don't live in a perfect world.
We all do the best we can, make the choices right for US and those we love.
I feel we made the right decision. It was the right decision for our marriage and our children.
I didn't ask for your blessing.
Did the OW ask for mine when she slept with my H, when she got involved with my H?
She took the risk when she slept with a married man. She knew that she was on medication that might negate her birth control pills, yet she didn't tell him to use another form of birth control. She knew the risk, she knew I was pregnant.
He said she gambled and lost. She had her child and we have ours. She gets money from us every month until her dau graduates from HS.
I take responsibility for my actions, my H took financial resoponsibility for his, (that mistake being having sex with a woman not his wife); the OW must take care of her mistakes. She has a child to raise.
What would she have done if she had been married and had a child and that man died? Would she moan and groan that her husband abandoned her and their child? NO.
You accept what you can't change and go on.
An OW has a child from her affair, she knew the risks and has to live with them. So rather than be bitter, raise her child to be a good person and not repeat her/his mother's mistakes.
I know if we had divorced my H would never have been an active member of my children's lives. Not because of his choice but because of the distance. I would have returned to Texas and he would have probably stayed in KY or gone to PA where his parents were.
We couldn't have afforded to send all 5 children to PA and he would have had to work to pay child support for 5 children. I don't think he would have had time to visit.
Well I have run on. I hope this makes sense.
The main thing is how contact would affect the marriage and the children of the marriage. Those are the concerns of the couple and their priority. The OW's concerns are herself and her child. Sometimes they cancel each out.

Basically, get over it! People make choices and have to live with them. In your case you feel the choice of NC contact sucks. Well in my case it would have.
I bet you didn't get all you wanted for Christmas either. Did that cause tremendous pain?

Texasgirl

[ December 27, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Texasgirl ]

Jenny...starting out by saying I don't know your story but can I ask...why does your exOW think it is your fault? I am wondering because I was told by xMM that it was his wife's fault that he can't be in his child's life...something I don't buy for a minute. Nobody makes anybody do anything against their will. He said, and I will try and quote.."the only way I can stay a part of my children's (of the marriage) lives is if I never have contact with OC again. She told me I had to chose between them."

It is beginning to baffle me why the women are fighting each other when clearly the men in our lives are lying to all involved. I was harsh with Tony, because I truly feel that the MM bears the brunt of the blame in most situations. Yes we knowingly get involved with MM but the women I know are snowed by charm and lies and of course all those false promises and the dreaming out loud. Not saying I am blameless...not at all...and I am paying the consequenses, have been for years, but at least I am taking responsibility for my actions and not putting the blame for my decisions on a convenient scapegoat. (the wife).

For the record, I don't plan on telling my child that it is all the big bad wife's fault. Blame serves no good purpose in this area. I didn't care whose fault it was that my parents abandonned me, the reality was that it was done and nothing could make that pain go away.

****because I truly feel that the MM bears the brunt of the blame in most situations***

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

When I was 17 I had a MM tried to get me involved with him and even at that age I knew he was full of [censored]. Why does every single ow think their story is going to have a happy ending ??
And lets just say your MM did leave his wife and children for you. Then wouldn't you be guilty of making him choose between his children's happiness and you ?
Just what is the difference ???!!!

where did I say I would make him choose between never having contact with his children again and being with me? I don't use children as blackmail and I believe what I was saying was I don't believe his wife is either. I think he's lying again. If THAT offends you, then clearly you do need to perpetuate the war with the other woman your husband lied to. You don't think he is more to blame for cheating on you than she is? I don't get that...he is the one who betrayed you...if it wasn't her, then it would have been with someone else.

Gemni, I did not take it as a flame at all. First of all though, his wife knows nothing of us, the baby etc. There has been no d-day as of yet. Yes I do feel that he betrayed me. I was there for him and he lied to me and everything was great until I told him I was pregnant. What do I get from that? Just that.......he lied to me. As far as the wife goes......that's another story. Won't go into now. Your right though, I knew he was married. The mere fact that he complained of being so unhappy and was with me all the time and talked to me all the time and all has nothing to do with anything.....he was married. I was old enough to know not to get sucked into it. Trust me everyday I say stupid stupid stupid stupid. I knew this man for 15 years and thought I knew him, but hey stupid me. And you know what......I don't expect him to be there for her birth. I think at this point it would be well....just weird. That is a intiment(sp?) thing you know? Alot has happened since I told him I was pregnant. I don't have that trust that comes with it anymore. I have had alot of reality since I became pregnant. It's to bad it took this to open my eyes and see what I have done as well. But as far as xmm.....and I'm not saying this about all, but his wife knows nothing....he is not protecting his wife and kids right now. He's protecting his own butt. At anytime I could of open this all up and he knows it, but he also knows the person I really am and in my opinion taking advantage of that. He was the one that asked me to do a DNA test through amino as soon as possible and he is also the one who ignored two different appointments that were at his request. Awhile I posted and someone here stated in a remark that I made about his actions that no time is a good time.....that's right there is no good time, but if he really wanted to make things right don't you think he would of gone to his wife and told her before someone else could tell her? We live in the same city, and work in the same area. I was in Starbucks the other day and felt someone staring at me from behind.....I turned around and low and behold it was him...as soon as I turned around he turned his head and we never even spoke. I see him now as spinless swine. He knows that I'm still legally married (but seperated) and that when I told stbxh he filed for divorce. In my state my husband can be legally responsible even though and with that he is allowing that to happen. My stbxh told me if xmm comes forward he won't divorce me until after the child is born that way I'm covered on insurance, and xmm does not care. How selfish is that? He would rather take the chance of me loosing my insurance for myself and the baby and having to pay 1/2 of all the costs then to just do what is right. So am I out of line to feel the way I feel? You can't see at all where he is spineless and selfish? Only thinking of himself? He does not want his kids to know ever but instead of doing what's right he is waiting for me to serve him with papers? As far contact goes.....I really don't want someone like that in her life. But I know if he changes his mind I have no choice and have to think about her and her needs first. I don't think I will have to cross that bridge though. At some point I know I'll have be in a relationship with somenoe later. Either he accepts me and my children or not and what goes with it. I made these choices to keep her and have to take what goes with it. I don't have any visions of xmm ever coming back into my life. The only vesions I have is getting this over with him and him finally allowing me to get on with my life as he has. I hope you understand better what I've said. And I never took it as a flame Gemeni. Although I got into a soap box.....it goes back to we all do what is best for what we have gone through and really no matter how old our kids are we do what's best for them and what we have to do to protect them. Depending on the side of the coin is what we feel about our situation.

N/c is a crock for the child.

It may make perfect sense to the WS, BS, and OW. But is it RIGHT for the child?

Jenny seems to think this thread is about her, I don't see her name in the title anywhere, but right from the start I'm "painting" her situation with a "broad brush". Jenny, I don't know who you are, I did not have you in mind when I started the thread, so go away if you get upset by the topic please. Every other poster seems to be able to state their views and share their experience without being nasty. You COULD have done that too. Did you have the best of intentions towards your H's OC? If so, you agree with what I'm saying. If not, well you sound like a hypocrite and no wonder it didn't turn out.

Like Twilight says, there are women bickering here, and the person who did cause the problem is staying silent.

Yes, the children of the marriage are innocent and deserve not to be hurt either. It's a shame their father didn't believe so strongly about that while he was spending family money and family time with OW. Why was he so willing to jeopardise his children's future?? Leaving out one-night stands, most of these MM devote months and years to jeopardising their children's future. They plan, they lie to achieve it, they plot about "when" they are going to leave their families, but alas when OC enters the picture, suddenly the wife and children are IMPORTANT. The men are so full of **** - but we'll argue forever that they are only thinking of what's best for their children. Well, imo, they continue to be liars, because the only person benefitting is themselves. They HAVE hurt the wife and children, they HAVE hurt the OW and OC, and carrying out that planned hurt didn't stop them from doing it, so to use "hurt" as the reason for n/c is justification at it's finest.

It hurts to know that you are married to a lying sack of ****, but we all better get used to it. We know what they are capable of and stay anyway.

If all adults DID do the right thing - that includes WS and OW - is there anybody who thinks n/c is still BEST FOR THE CHILD?

That there is a possiblity for an OC means that our husbands don't/didn't care about the repurcussions on our children - THEIR children. But somehow, the OW is supposed to take greater care of his children than him............I despair for your children if you think every other stranger/non blood-related person is more responsible for them than their very own two parents.

I don't think EITHER parent should contribute more than the other. It should be shared and be as fair as can be.

If a parent lives a great distance away, then costs can be SHARED.

jtigger, I don't expect a non-custodial parent to do any more in this situation, than I would expect a non-custodial parent to do after divorce as it pertains to a small child. The ADULTS can periodically update the other parent with information etc. I wouldn't think a 3 month old OC would benefit from any time with it's father than if a 3 month old child of divorced parents would benefit from any time with it's father. I thought that sort of stuff would be common sense - but you obviously missed it. Do you really think ANY baby cares ultimately WHO feeds it or cares for it?

I would be interested to hear how you think divorced parents (let's say they divorced very shortly after birth) should handle custody of that child.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by twilight:
 Catnip, I don't know all the circumstances surrounding your story but had xMM decided on NC and then 5 years later wanted contact I would also say no...I think.

=^^= My husband was diagnosed clinically mentally ill and has been ill since 1997 or perhaps even before then. He lost his 18 years of sobriety in 1997 and was unable to regain his sobriety until June 2003. He was prescribed an incredibly strong drug in 2000 after his suicide attempt but that was not effective until June 2003 either. During those five years, we faced losing our business, bankruptcy, forced divorce, foreclosure, 65% to 100% of his wages garnished and the very real possibility that we were about to lose everything we had worked so hard for during our twenty year marriage. The LAST thing we worried about was contact with the OC. In fact, we were fighting for our very basic survival and had neither the time, the energy or the inclination to consider the OC. We were almost homeless and my husband was in no shape to be any good to or for OC. Our recovery was delayed during his illness and our recovery did not actually begin in earnest until June 2003. We both feel we are on the other side of recovery now and feel we have been successful at rebuilding the marriage. We could have contact now and we could be good for OC now, but we would be engaging in an uphill battle with a very disagreeable OW who couldn't care less what we have been through and would refuse contact. We are exhausted, frankly, and we aren't that interested in initiating contact if it means having to battle. OW lacks the compassion required to understand anyone else's situation other than her own. Contact is probably too late for us under the circumstances and while I understand OW's reluctance becasue of the time issue, she does not afford us the same courtesy.

In my mind the question I have for the BS is why do YOU insist the WS chose between you and his/her child...if that is indeed the case. Aren't you afraid of future resentment or am I way off base?

=^^= I guess we "insist" on NC initially because in order to heal the marriage all the focus needs to be spent on each other without distractions otherwise there won't be anything there for anyone else including the kids...and spouses come first before kids. All kids. Even the kids of the marriage. Our kids have always loved seeing our devotion to each other. It made them feel secure and loved and that they could count on us. The marriage relationship supercedes any other relationship because it is the firm foundation with which to build a stable household for everyone in the family to enjoy. Until the marriage has recovered, no one is healthy enough to provide a stable environment for the OC. If recovery takes too long to suit the OW, then contact will probably never happen. If the OC is several states away and all the money is garnished from the earnings, there is no money to travel and maintain a relationship with OC.

And as far as future resentment, I'm sorry, but...hahaha. If ANYONE resents ANYTHING, it would be the Betrayed Spouse for what the Wayward Spouse put her/him through to begin with. If the Wayward resents Betrayed...so what? Get over it. We had to. If they don't get over it, then bye-bye. Show them the door. The Betrayed has done her part in even considering reconciliation after the Wayward has done the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage. Resentment? Puh-leeze. I don't think a Wayward's resentment could in anyway match the resentment the Betrayed is entitled to. Fortunately, most Betrayeds don't hold onto their resentment post successful recovery.

I understand that this must be something difficult to fathom from your vantage point, and with your particular situation with your little one having had some health problems. I know you are deeply hurt by what has happened to you and your daighter at the hands of the MM, but if he is committed to recovery and fixing his marriage, then I hope you can let go for your sake and your daughter's sake and I sincerely hope and pray that one day you will meet someone that will heal your hurt and give you the home and family you and Hope deserve. I know how hard it is to raise a child all by yourself. I did it for 12 years. But, when you least expect it ...and when you aren't even looking for it, the "real deal" will just some your way and you'll wonder why you ever wasted so much time and emotional energy on someone who belonged to someone else and who hurt you and Hope so much.

Anyway, that is my New Year's wish for you, Twilight...for God to heal your heart and bring you peace within to open yourself up for someone who is worthy of you and your daughter because I think you are a pretty good kid who deserves happiness and a home with someone kind and devoted to you and Hope.

Catnip =^^=
<hr /></blockquote>

Inspiring post Catnip. I hope things continue to get better for you and your H.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Still Trying:
 N/c is a crock for the child.

=^^= NC is unhealthy for the child and does not serve the child if the WS is unhealthy himself (emotionally, physically or spiritually) and cannot offer anything to OC for financial reasons, geographical or distance reasons, marriage reasons or a myriad of other reasons that are particular to each and everyone's particular situation.

What is really a crock is discussing Contact vs No Contact here on Marriage Builders with Betrayeds who will rarely, if ever, agree with you since they are coming from and entirely different perspective and the OC is a source of horrendous pain in the early months after D-day. I suggest you take up the Contact vs No Contact issue with your former MM and his wife.

ST: It may make perfect sense to the WS, BS, and OW. But is it RIGHT for the child?

=^^= Maybe not...but then again, maybe it IS...depending on the state of the WS and the marital recovery.

ST: Jenny seems to think this thread is about her,

=^^= No she doesn't. And before you go beating up on Jenny, I should tell you that she has been here longer than I have and she has been successful in rebuilding her marraige after a huge double betrayal.

ST: Every other poster seems to be able to state their views and share their experience without being nasty. You COULD have done that too.

=^^= Perhaps she could have but you might have pushed a button. Let it go and try not to take offense. This topic is getting out of hand and probably should close since it is taking on some weird segways.

ST: Did you have the best of intentions towards your H's OC?

=^^= You know, I don't think it is the place of the Betrayed to go out of their way to insure "good intentions" because I feel the OW should be accomodating to the BW because she owes her something for intruding in her life if she knew the man was married...but then, that's just my POV and probably one that is not shared by many. I know Jenny pretty well by now and she would never have ill intent towards OC and that is all anyone can realistically hope to have under these difficult circumstances.

ST: It's a shame their father didn't believe so strongly about that while he was spending family money and family time with OW. Why was he so willing to jeopardise his children's future?? Leaving out one-night stands, most of these MM devote months and years to jeopardising their children's future. They plan, they lie to achieve it, they plot about "when" they are going to leave their families, but alas when OC enters the picture, suddenly the wife and children are IMPORTANT. The men are so full of **** - but we'll argue forever that they are only thinking of what's best for their children. Well, imo, they continue to be liars, because the only person benefitting is themselves. They HAVE hurt the wife and children, they HAVE hurt the OW and OC, and carrying out that planned hurt didn't stop them from doing it, so to use "hurt" as the reason for n/c is justification at it's finest.

=^^= You are right on nearly every point you have just made except for one...the last point where you say that they use that hurt for an excuse/justification for NC. I believe that when a cheater is engaged in cheating, all they are thinking is how exciting it is to live a double life and to get their ego fluffed by the attentions of another woman. Making empty promises and declarations of love and making plans are pure fantasy and just plain fun for them. When reality hits, it hits hard. When the OW announces the pregnancy, she throws ice cold water on the foggy fantasy and lover boy wakes up to the horror and realization that the A is a disaster and too much is at stake. As long as he can live the illusion that this is just fun and games and it can be called off at any time, he wants to keep it going because it serves him. When something as serious as an unplanned pregnancy happens with a woman who is not his wife, then the entire game shatters and becomes a huge problem. He knows his marriage is in serious jeopardy, he knows something of this magnitude is going to hurt his children, that anyone finding out about this horrible situation will lose all respect for him and he will look like an idiot...a careless idiot. Suddenly, the A isn't worth it anymore and there isn't anything he wants more than his wife and chidlren. But now he has to sit down to a banquet of consequences for his behavior. He feels and looks like a fool, he is remorseful and contrite. He's scared and with good reason. But, in most cases he had a willing accomplice that knew his marital status and was pretty stupid and selfish herself. The huge price to pay is No Contact because that is probably the ONLY thing the Betrayed Spouse will even consider for reconciliation to happen...so he has to make a choice and 90% of the time, that choice will be his wife and chidlren.

ST: It hurts to know that you are married to a lying sack of ****, but we all better get used to it. We know what they are capable of and stay anyway.

=^^= Yeah. True. We do stay but we kind of have to if we have a complicated and long involved history and children together. There is too much at stake to just walk away from so much (especially if your husband is NOT a serial cheater) because of someone who is a stranger to us intruded into our lives...OC or no OC.
The irony of an A as opposed to an A with and OC is that people in A's usually stay in them much longer and stay fogged in longer if there is nothing traumatic to snap them out of it ...like an OC. Nothing snaps someone out of their fantasy faster than an OC. I think that is why pregnancy is the death knell to the OW...she gains a kid but loses the lover.

ST: If all adults DID do the right thing - that includes WS and OW - is there anybody who thinks n/c is still BEST FOR THE CHILD?

=^^= Someday I would like some OW's to tell me what exactly they expect from WS's and their BW's other than financial support. What does an OW mean when they say they want "contact" for their OC? What more do they expect from us? I'm not trying to be a smart [censored]...I truly want to know what more they want besides financial? Family dinners with the grandparents and the Betrayeds on Sundays? The OC and the BC having sleep overs regardless of what the BC's want? There are so many other people to consider other than OC or what the OW wants....so much to consider.

ST: That there is a possiblity for an OC means that our husbands don't/didn't care about the repurcussions on our children - THEIR children.

=^^= Sadly, I don't think most men even worry about or think about the possibility of an OC. They are just in it for the ego fluffing and good times. Most probably figure women today know how to prevent pregnancy and that theya re responsible for their bodies and to keep themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. It really is the woman's responsiblity to keep herself from getting pregnant. It IS her body, after all. Unless a woman lives in a cave away from modern civilization, there is no excuse for a "possiblity of pregnancy".

ST: But somehow, the OW is supposed to take greater care of his children than him............

=^^= Well, yeah, cause she's the mother and the primary caregiver and he is otherwise engaged in a marriage to someone else.

ST: If a parent lives a great distance away, then costs can be SHARED.

=^^= Tell our OW that...she'll laugh in your face. She doesn't want us near her or the OC...she just wants the cash, please.

ST: I would be interested to hear how you think divorced parents (let's say they divorced very shortly after birth) should handle custody of that child.

=^^= There is a world of difference between a child of divorced parents and an OC simply because there was probably a unanimous consensus to have a child in the first place, then the bonding, then the grandparent involvement, shared history, etc. When an OC is born of an affair, that means that there is a reluctant Betrayed Spouse somewhere suffering that child's existence in the beginning and it takes time to digest this horrendous news and much thought needs to be given to whether or not the marriage can survive contact. Anyway, I think we should close this thread because I don't think OW's should be discussing and debating Contact vs No Contact on MB with Betrayeds who have such a difficult time even facing the issue of an OC...very painful. This issue should be discusssed with the Waywards.
<hr /></blockquote>

I AM a BW, not an OW. Why on earth did you think I was an OW??????

You misunderstood my point about OW having to be more responsible to the MM's children THAN the MM himself. They're his children (from the marriage), so why should a stranger take them into consideration more than their own father???

needtomoveon,
My H didn't tell me for over 3 months of OW being pregnant. He said after that he knew it would be over between us and he held off until he couldn't take it any longer.

Ow was my friend. During that time I'd run into her and her Mom at the grocery store and OW would kind of get away from having to say hello to me. Her Mom didn't know as she was/is married!

Meanwhile she filed for divorce and her H fled to Florida. When I asked my H what had happened to them, he said he didn't know... We had stopped going out socially too... all that made me feel strange but I didn't know why either.

Here at home, H wasn't sleeping, he was seemingly weepy-eyed with me when I'd kiss him goodmorning or goodnight. One time he held me and said how sweet I was and why did I put up with him....before d-day! I was confused for a long time.

Our stories are so similar being all of us were married. One exception, I knew OW. I just thought I'd tell you what went on before d-day to let you think about what WS do before disclosing the A.

At that Starbucks, why didn't you go up to him to say hello? It's spineless that he didn't tell you hello yet you didn't say anything either.

Your H allowing you to remain on his insurance is compassionate. I remember you saying that before. We paid for 1/2 OW's hospital bill as her H didn't do a thing for her at that time.

Whether his wife finds out by him (preferable), or by "mail", she's going to know....so sooner or later his bigger problems will begin and he is avoiding that big time with good reason, don't you think? He may still be shell shocked or like my H told me, he thought at first OW would abort and was hoping she would. (Not meant to start another war but telling what went on in our situation).

So there you have it. It may be what he's going through now.

Take it easy. Hope this helped.

love
Debi

You know.....there are opinions that every man SHOULD have C with a child he donated sperm for....okay whatever...then there are opinions that a MM should NOT have C w/ an OC from A (mine) okay whatever.....

then someone will offer their opinion based on experience that they tried C and OW was unreasonable ect and then C ended and then it's ok because "at least you tried".

HELLO....how many people have to TRY and devatstate their entire family "trying" and then it's okay to have NC? Why can't you just leave the people ALONE who AVOID trying because they are wise enough, after hearing about enough "failed tryings", to even risk hurting thier families?

Why even risk it?

Yes, MM took risks JUST AS OW risked producing a fatherless child. AFTERWARDS decisions and choices have to be made and everyone has consequences. NO ONE gets off free, NOT EVEN THE "INNOCENT".

Just stop whining about the choices that are made. The choice is made, be done with it.

"No one" wants to hear about how a choice for C hurts BC, but then why do we all HAVE to hear about how NC hurts OC. WE KNOW. It's a choice. We KNOW it hurts, BS have hurt the most and they are also INNOCENT. WE KNOW IT HURTS but that is life. It is a choice that was made and now EVERYONE has to live w/ it!

Gemini very good point. Why did I not go to him? Well, when he looked away I just thought You [censored] you can't even look me in the eye. And at the time I just thought it best to wait on the other side to get my coffee. When I left and really a day or two later was when I thought geez I should of gone over and talked to him. But it was to late then. I could see xmm doing the same thing with his wife. If they are even at that point yet. Not to start a board war but she is not very affection etc. Never has been. and yes, I know her, but we were never friends. They have always had two sets of friends in there marriage life. Your right about when she finds out and although I'm not looking forward to that day, I feel that it's the only way it will make him do what he needs to do even if it's a fight through an attorney. Mine is already set to go. Yes your right about my stbxh. Although as soon as I told him he filed so he would not have to pay for xmm baby. Granted he was right there. He had told me that if xmm comes forward he would keep me on but xmm has not. stbxh has settled down some though when I got my own attorney. He has realized that I have not taken from him since day one of seperation what I'm really entitled to and he has been better off as things are. I think it will be easier for me to get on with my life when all this is behind me. I do want a life and just feel that I can't bring someone else into it with all this crap not being settled. He on the other hand is living life as if non of this has happened. To be honest that does make me upset. I can't explain it, and it's not a vengenful thing, it's just that I'm stuck in limbo here and he's not. I've had enough class to not start problems and make havak in his family life and he has gone out of his way to make sure nothing comes easy for me. I also know that all decisions are his, and his wife has nothing to do with them. That is a good thing. If he would of done all this after she knew I would of blamed her. I know in my heart that men make there choices. They can tell there wives no, and they don't......we all make our choices. I know you probally did not want to hear me say that I would of blamed her, but it's the truth and at least my honest about it. To be honest, I think in some ways that if this would of never happened to me I'd still be with xmm and in the fog. I'd be hanging on to a pipe dream and getting into it deeper. In some ways I think God needed a huge boulder to fall on me to wake me up. I use to think he was the best thing on earth. That every word he said was the God's honest truth. Even with the lies I caught him in.....go figure. Thanks Gemini it was insightful.

Still Trying:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />N/c is a crock for the child.

It may make perfect sense to the WS, BS, and OW. But is it RIGHT for the child?<hr /></blockquote>I am a man raising my wife's OC. He will be five (tomorrow). He has never had contact with his biological father. His biological father pays us no support. This child is loved and cherished in an intact two-parent home, with two other half-siblings.

Is this right for this child? It seems to work pretty well. Is it perfect? Perhaps not. But it is certainly not a crock. No Contact is probably less harmful to a child, in the end, then a divorce would be. No Contact can allow opportunities for the child and mother---you seem to focus solely on the losses. Instead of whining and complaining: ask yourself "How can I ensure the best outcome for my child (my family), out of this less than ideal situation?"

To those debating the C vs NC issue with StillTrying..

Keep in mind she DOES NOT HAVE an OC in her life.

She is BW visiting the P/C forum and basing her opinion and criticisims on how she would feel if she did.

And we ALL know what happens to those strong opinions and convictions when you are actually walking in those shoes.

I am an abandoned child myself. I know what the lifelong repurcussions of that are and the emotional damage it has caused me. I am always wanting to expand my world and listen to the opinions and experiences of people who are in a situation I am not in. Is that not a good thing? I am always questioning and searching in the hope of finding understanding.

Why can't the people who have n/c with an OC in their life ask me what I have experienced, why can't they take my adult views as being valid and listen to somebody who struggles with feelings of worth and value because of what adults did to her when she was too young to have a voice of her own? I'm your OC 30+ years in the future - why not ask me and learn and possibly save yourself regret and guilt?

I am also wanting to learn why an OC devastates the children from the marriage. I am a firm believer of children taking their lead from adults and are guided by their opinions and values. The financial side is a negative, but I don't see how it is "devastating", anymore than if another sibling is born unexpectedly. I don't see how a 3 year old or a 5 year old could care less about knowing they have another brother or sister in their lives. I have children from different marriages (they all live with me), but they don't consider themselves to be anything but siblings. My youngest one has always been completely comfortable with referring to my other childrens' father as "their Dad", she has not asked why they have a different father, she just accepts it. It was the WS who devastated the marriage, not the OC. The damage is done.

I think about my best girlfriend's children, say, - if something were to happen to her I would take them in a heartbeat. They aren't mine and technically and legally I'm not responsible. I didn't plan them in my life whatsoever.

Is it that you don't want to know that you have the power to help shape the future of your OC's life?

K, I admire you for the task you have taken on. Like I said before (not sure if it was this thread or another) - the people who did love me (as you are loving the child in your life) could not fill the void in my life that was of somebody elses doing. They provided, they loved, but there was a sadness inside of me always that I was worthless to somebody.

If nothing else, this thread is helping me to put some thoughts into words.

ST, I don't know if this helps, but.......xmm in my case is adoptive. We had many talks on the subject. He has two very loving parents that brought him up and he is very close to. He has always felt an abodment though towards his birth parents. He even met his birth mom a few years ago. She would not tell him one thing about his b-dad. He held high power or I think he's minister to be honest I get confussed, anyway....when I became pregnant and xmm said he wanted n/c with this child we talked about that a little I mean very little. He made the comment to me that his birth parents never came knocking on his door. I told him yeah, and you have these hang ups over it too....and his reply was oh well. So for whatever it's worth, it's just how people handle there own situation and feel they need to do it. I'm sorry that you have such hard feelings over it. I hope that I can raise my daughter to cope with and not have some of the hangups that you and xmm have.
Oh yeah more thing....I told xmm that he was following in his fathers' footsteps. That he needs to do something to break that chain. Some may think that is stupid to say, but I believe it. I know I'm going to do what I can do to break the chain from my part of it.

[ December 28, 2003, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]

needtomoveon,
Are you saying your H will not keep you covered by his insurance for baby's birth? When is that?

I understand you thinking MM wife would be the wrath of your bewilderment on how MM has treated you , but the fact she does not know proves my point on how MM react to a pregnant mistress....usually...the fantasy of love and happiness dissolves with a pregnancy.... it may be hard to read... and I know I'd be immensely hurt to read it...but it is usually true.

No matter how many years...no matter what he may have said...and affection may be his only complaint...and you filled that need....he still will be with his wife if she wants him back.

His wife will fill that affection need rather quickly.

He will then revel in her affection as he first did with you. The difference being is he wished it were her from the beginning...now that it is...his fulfillments will be appeased and they will struggle together to do what it takes to mend the damages leaving you all the way out on your own.

It is sad the way they lie those WS!

They want what they need and get it for a period of time, meanwhile, the op falls in love and falls hard. WS then at some time wakes up and is terrified of what he has done...I'm taking it from the mans mouth NTMO, he then wants out at all cost....back to normal...please forgive me...etc...

It takes enormous amounts of time for that to occur. Many sleepless nights and many tears for us also. The affair is one thing and quite enough thankyou.....then add a child and wham!!!! it is a mountain that is so hard to climb, even with WS help...it is almost inconcievable ... a bullet to the heart...that another woman could have, would have ,your husbands child...and he wants FORGIVENESS????

Now this part goes to StillTrying also...

So now we have N/C... and that child is you ...maybe as a young one you will accept an oc....when you grow, don't you think when you "get it" on the CIRCUMSTANCES of oc, you will come to your own conclusions? You will know right from wrong by then. You discover one of your parents made a baby outside of their RELATIONSHIP... would you want that for yourself? For your children? IT IS WRONG. and as KT put it, we all suffer the fallout.

I'd hate to think K is investing his love and life to the oc and the oc will still grow up missing something...then guess what ST? WE ALL WILL FOREVER "MISS" SOMETHING!!!

We can only go on as best we know how. I pray daily for God to show me his way and I still falter a lot....but I know God understands me and all of us here!

HE has shown me so much with my H and I.

Someday if you all have q's I promise to have my H at my side to answer you as he has me.

His heart aches for oc... not that he'd try to include oc....just hates what he did to us as much as what he did to produce oc! Incredible?

No! He wants him and I to be at peace. Our son to be at peace. Oc to be at peace... Heck...ow to find peace and leave us alone.... NTMO, he has a heart....only to save his marriage it may not include what you need or want or feel.

Now I hope your H will allow you the insurance to have the baby.

BTW why would he let you off easy? He considered you to be "his woman" and you've sacrificed your H for a man who will never accomadate you... What do you expect right now? What have you done to begin to help HIM heal?

Nothing? Only thinking of you and Jr?

Something to think about...we all have feelings...we all bleed when cut....some deeper than others...

love
Debi

NTMO OW used the "don't let baby grow up without a daddy, you know how I felt" and it was guilt she was using on him as her Dad died when she was 8 and I heard all about it, and her hurt, and her this, and her that,..... has nothing or maybe something to do with why these things happen....

[ December 28, 2003, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]

Gemeni, I totally agree with what you said about the fantacy etc. I totally see that. That is why I said I am so glad he (xmm) did this before his wife ever knew, that way I could NOT blame her. It it all his doing. It may of hurt more, but at least I saw it for what it was. No more fantacies. And your right, I'm sure he wished he had that with his wife. I have thought about that alot. I have really come along way in my thinking since I became pregnant. As far as my husband letting him off easy....we've been seperated for 2 years. The only reason we never divorced was because I have nerve damage in my neck and can't get other health insurance. In exchanged I told him I would not take my entitlements of retirements (he's retired from one union and on his way with another) until the divorce was final nor would I ask him for any alimony which I'm entitled to as I was a house wife our entire married life except the last 6 months, and that I would not push him to take off work on his weekends with our kids, I'd just keep them. And if he waited until my time period was up to where I could get health insurance I would not ask him to help pay for the insurance. Right now he is getting off pretty cheap and he can see the kids when ever he wants or does not want. I don't force the parenting aggrement on him. He has to work, and whatever. Yes he was hurt when I got pregnant, but I think it was more of an ego thing. You see we tried for 4.5 years to get pregnant. We went through years of drugs and IVF (invitro) with miscarraiges and end result our twin girls. Even though all the problems were mine, the first words out of his mouth was when I told him, "and we tried all those years?" And no, he can't stand xmm. I had introduced them awhile back before A ever started. When A started husband was gone almost 7 months. He's been dating and moving on too. I will say I did hurt him when I asked him to leave but we had no marriage and "I" had been working on it for to many years....long before my girls were born and it only got worse. He wanted to play married, not be married, if you can understand that. Anyway that is the readers digest version of my marriage. Just to let you know, I totally understand what you were saying about xmm. Thanks

Thank you NTMO and Gemini for sharing your stories.

For those BW's and BH's who have decided with their WS's that n/c is best for their situation, how did you arrive at that decision.

Was there many agonising hours spent weighing all the pros and cons, or was it a fairly swift and quick necessity. I realise that there would be a sense of urgency where pregnancy is involved because time keeps ticking away and options are lessened as that time goes on - it's not like you can suspend it for a year while you get your thoughts together. It was all I could do to survive after dday, let alone make decisions like that - but then again it is probably different for the WS.

I still harbor a lot of anger and resentment towards my WH, and I apologise if that comes out towards BW's. Really my anger is at the person (people) who caused the mess, but I also try to think how I feel in relation to being a child with issues of abandonment. I am trying to be a voice for those children as well.

As usual, there hasn't been a WS with an OC post here yet, has there?

well there was Tony but I think he got scared away. Can you really blame them for not posting? That would require them lifting their heads of of the sand.

needtomoveon,
My goodness! Except for the invitro, you sound like OW in our case a little.

So you worked on your marriage for years? How about if you did the things you did for MM to you H? Where would you be?

I know you think all is lost but have you even tried again for the twins sake?

Ow here does not force the visitation thing with her H either...he just came back from Fla. after his brother was killed in a motorcycle crash this past March. To help his Mom and family business (bar) his brother owned. Funny...he is back and his kids are thrilled... my sisters D is in ow's sons class at school and we "hear" things ya know?

Honestly H and I are hoping her and H reconcile and stay married in the true sense of the word...for all their c's!

I wish you could step inside your H's shoes a brief moment, not too long, and think what he must feel... have you talked? Is all lost? Even after the twins? If so I'm so sorry all of the children will be alone for a while....without Dad.. Really I am sorry..

Praying you'll soon find a soloution to peacefulness...

StillTrying,
The decision to seek contact was made while I was emotionally unstable and H was in a fog thinking ow would be as wonderful as she was during the A.

I became stronger....the fog lifted... ow was demanding of my H and his time and the when's and where's of visits... She said at her home without me after ONE visit set up by me at our home.... It was awful...sorry.... it was awful for all of us and to boot, ow called H to tell us we had to bring oc home as I was unstable and she didn't trust me.

I would not hurt a baby....but it was a cover as she wanted the fantasy of H coming over without me to see their baby.

The decision was made after many breeches of the agreement we all had made....all were dishonored by ow....continous calls to H at will ... interruptions to our trying to sort out this mess and what we wanted in our marriage.. after a time...we agreed to stop the damaging effects and drop visitation and just pay her the "hush" money....

From that time on, it was unsteady... me not trusting... him getting calls and letters STILL...she didn't let go and to this day hasn't....it angered my husband to the point of wishing he'd never laid eyes on her. It showed him what she was all about....herself....

So now we go on together...scars of the past show up like a bad stitch job from a plastic surgeon who botches a job... it will never leave us but taught us a particularly good lesson....To never wish for what you THINK you want because you may get it in a way you don't like.

The N/C was to end the insanity of ow and us being together in our lives and it is as ugly as an x- who you want no part of...only worse...

We both agreed the best would be for ow and her children and H to have a chance at peace WITHOUT us. Her oc will not suffer as oc has many family members who accept and love oc.

Our wish is oc doesn't turn out with ambivilent feelings like you have. Sorry but instead of worrying about what you do not have...look at what you do/did have. How sorry I am that your parents must feel they were not good enough!

I am more sorry for them. They did the best they could and loved you and all you do is think about someone who may not have been able to be the person you wanted.

Hey....all of us here have one of those! H is laughing at that...It's true eh?

Peace and prayers you find some kind of acceptance in life. It's all we can all wish for...peace and acceptance.

M, keep on going stong and maybe instead of worrying about MM, turn a little energy to your H. The results may astound you!

love
Debi

Debi, h and I are much better living apart than together. Our kids are much happier as well. One of the twins had a terrible stuttering problem and it was because of us. When we split I put my energry on her and she only stutters as we all do now. H even agrees on that. We were raised so differently and he just does not know how nor does he want to know how to play as a team. His whole family has problems with relationships and frankly it's just weird. He agrees to. That in itself is another very long story. I really feel sorry for the way he was raised. I actually put a whole lot more energy into h than I ever did in xmm. As xmm was married, I lived my life and took care of my kids and did what I wanted to do. Don't get me wrong, xmm was a huge part of my life, we were around each other to much, but I made my own decisions about my kids and life. He tried to control my life, but I figured he was not sharing my life. I never brought him around my kids even though they knew him from before the affair. I knew that would not be right. Ok the whole thing was not right, but you know what I mean. I did try one more time after I asked h to leave, with no luck. H does see the kids, it's just not consistant as normal divorced people have it. He does have a strange work schedule, but we all work with it. I have no problem letting my kids seeing him at all even at very little notice. They worship the ground he walks on as it should be. Xmm and I use to laugh saying that his w and my h should of married as they were more alike and him and I should of well........oh well. At this point my concern is my kids. I don't want my kids already in this world to do without because xmm is running from his responsibilities. But it's just one more thing I have to fight for. Thanks for the ear.

M Thanks for explaining.... and now I have to run. Work calls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

love
Debi

ST,

Here's a perspective from the OC who had some contact w/Mom's OM.

CONFUSION!!!

Everybody's trying to keep this dirty little secret from exploding in their faces, while "Mr Selfish World Revolves Around Me" insists on sneaking contact.

ST, don't wish for the can of worms that never got opened in your behalf.

As a WS w/OC, I feel the same way the K does! In our case, xOM/MM was quite psycho! After D-day, he was basically stalking us! He even begged Sailorman to be able to talk to me "one last time"! Of course I didn't want anything to do with him, as I had been trying to get out of the stupidity I allowed myself to get into. Seeing as how xOM attacked my H on D-day, and his stalking tendencies, that was one of the major reasons to not even tell him about the P in the first place. We didn't want him involved in any way from that point on. One of the other major reasons was that we DIDN'T want to take ANYTHING away from his (then) W or his D! I say "then" because from another "friend" she said that she was going to D xOM after she had her "ducks in a row".

So, basically, our decission was made as a M'd couple thinking of OUR family first(for once!!!). Was it agonized over, well, whether to keep P or give the baby up for adoption was a long discussed topic. But, after having been through giving a child up for adoption when we were teens, my H(NOT ME) decided that we would raise the baby as ours!!!! Well, OUR little girl will be 3 in March, and we are perfectly happy with our decission.

There, you now have a WS w/an OC's POV. I am always willing to share my story, but also agree that these broad strokes doesn't help ANYONE in any type of situation. Also, maybe if you did go into a little more detail about your abandonment, it would be easier to reply! Many of these OC have never met or seen their bio-father, and many who do come here to lament being abandoned have had said parent involved from the beginning. I, for one, believe that there is a HUGE difference and don't judge, or pass judgement on those who've decided on NC.

Again, just a WS pov

Tigger

After discussing this, we decided that our family came first. No contact was the only reasonable choice for us. OW and her wants were not a consideration. We discussed every avenue and it was quite obvious that we would not have the oc in our lives or our home.

To much drama and fallout from that. Learned of to many people who tried and it failed.

ST: You keep saying what about the OC. We keep telling you over and over, the OC is one of many victims of this. But, the marriage and the nuclear family has needs, and those needs may not be what is best for ow/oc. That is a fact and one of many damaging aspects of the selfishness of the affair.

As for how contact would hurt the children of the marriage. How are they supposed to explain this visiting child? Why should they have to? Plopping a totally stranger into the family every other weekend is a disruption and would be confusing. Sorry, the family has to look out for itself. Most men think this out. They make the choice. There is not a woman alive who would say me or oc. That is just to simple. The couple talk it out and view it from each angle. When the decision was made, it was no contact with oc. OW did not like that one bit, but that was not our problem. We had a family to heal and her being upset was hardly a thought. OC, sadly was an innocent, who would never know his bio-dad. However, it was a difficult choice, but he choose his wife and nuclear family.

Originally posted by Still Trying:
N/c is a crock for the child.

NC is perfect for my children. At least for now. They are adopted and have NC with their birth parents, for very very good reasons.

It hurts to know that you are married to a lying sack of ****, but we all better get used to it. We know what they are capable of and stay anyway.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> YOU may choose to call your WH ugly names, and that's your business.... but MY WH is a wonderful man who has made up for his affair in a million ways.

Your anger is not resolved.

my question is how can nc possibly be a crock for oc? why would any mother try and force contact on someone with her child whose heart wasn't into it?

Pops how true that statement is.

What I don't understand is why this NC issue is brought up over and over again. Why can't people understand that what may be good for one may not work for another. Just because one family has a great experince with contact doesn't mean the next will.

I feel like this thread is almost like compairing it to adoption. Does the adopted child feel abandoned? The thing is people are trying to do what is best for all involved. None of us know excatly what the situation is for the other.

***edited****by Justuss***

Still Trying****

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This is a SUPPORT forum for those dealing with a child as a result of an affair. There is enough hurt and pain on this forum without adding more.

Any questions or comments, feel free to email me.

Justuss2@aol.com

[ December 30, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]