When I first came here if was for help deciding whether or not to try and continue with C w/ OC or just give up completely. OW was being difficult and not very co-operative and right before last custody hearing she told us she would rather us not be invloved at all, after we had already made agreements to the visitation schedule. We decide to keep trying, hoping a detailed parenting agreement would make things easier.

After the hearing date, which was really just the lawyers going over our "agreements", and any disagreements or changes OW had made, our lawyer basically said to just agree with. (not as assertive/aggressive as she led us to believe she was) Most things were minor changes so we just gave in.

One thing that had really irked us was an "afterschool day" which was just time scheduled after school in which OW would pick up OC in the evening. When I went to p/u OC the next scheduled after school day OW was there and told me she had taken that afterschool day OUT of the agreemeent and didn't we see it?

Whatever, we felt taken advantage of, our lawyer said she knew nothing about it but...pretty much oh well...

Last week we got a copy of the parenting agreement and the after school day WAS in there. We immediately informed OW (thru email) that we would be using it then. She responded that this was the schedule we agreed to and it would not change. We responded that we would stick to the "agreement" on paper on the court order.

So H went today to p/u OC for scheduled after school day and OW refuses to let him take her. He then called the police. They finally showed up after an hour and decided that the "parenting agreement/court order" was "inconclusive".

Our order contains the entire calender for the year of 2004 with X's marking times w/ dad, noting the p/u and drop off times. OW told police that it was not the "visitation schedule" but only a schedule of time when dad was "available"! The calender did not specifically say "time w/ dad"--"time w/ mom", we didn't even think about it because we ALL knew what it meant.

The police seemed sympathetic and told them they needed to act like adults and do the right thing...blah blah blah...so OW then just took off with OC, even AFTER asking OC, in front of everybody, who she wanted to go with and OC said dad!!!!

The police then told my H that they knew it was frustrating but that he needed to go back to court to get it written in MORE detail.

I just feel so bad for him and then for all of us. We are trying to do the right thing and we just keep getting screwed! It seems like no matter what we do we LOSE!!!

At this point my H now just wants to give up. Thinking it really will be like this forever. Every time we think we'll just stick it out a bit longer to see if it gets better, it does for a short while then BAM, it starts over.

I mean how many "chances" do we give her? She knows we can't do anything to make changes for months so until then she will be like this.

When is enough enough? Thanks for reading this far if you have. I just needed to vent.

How can I help my H through this? He's trying so hard to do the right thing by all of us and he just gets shot down at every turn. He's so hurt by the pain he see's all of us go through.

Can a man ever make it all "right" in this situation? Can there ever be a "happy ending" if C is chosen? I think only in a fairy tale.

I am more hurt for him tonight then even angry at OW. Although I am very angry that she could actually pull a stunt like this!!!!! But I'm trying to focus on my H more and be supportive of him. I love him and hate to see him and the rest of our famiy continue to go through stupid things like this.

Is there any one out there with a word of advice or encouragement or anything?

What a mean, nasty thing for OW to do to her own child. How hateful.

Unfortunately, kt, we have seen this same exact scenario a bazillion times on this site. This constantly happens here and it must be universal. And it is almost always the OW who puts up the roadblocks and disappoints and confuses the child and I don't get it. Usually, they come here and whine and mewl about being "abandoned" but when they do get what they want, they purposely sabotage it and I for one, am completely confused why it keeps happening over and over again.

Couples who have been willing to alter their lives for the greater good of the child, have put their own feelings aside only to be consistently inconvenienced and treated with contempt.

Most who have tried contact have given up...mostly because of the child because it certainly can't be good for the child or make the child feel happy and secure, safe and loved to have one of the parents disrupt her life just to cause the other adult hardship and suffering of any kind. But unfortunately, that seems to be the way in most cases. There are other (fewer) cases here where the OW has been wonderful...a dream to work with and then the XOM is a [censored]; making demands, upsetting the routine, all needlessly.

The thing that bothers me the most, aside from the hoops she is making you jump through, is that poor little kid who wanted to go with dad and was denied...and for no valid reason. Such cruelty and manipulation. OW is certainly destroying any incentive you and your husband ever had to incorporate this child into your family.

I don't know what to tell you. If you did not already know the child and she were not attached to you or your husband, I'd advise to walk away; but, since she is obviously bonded with you and your hsuband, the only thing you can do is stay in this for her sake....unless XOW is destroying your peace of mind and making your life hell, what else can you do? Maybe start a box of cards and letters and savings bonds for the child and have them handy when she is older and can come to you on her own and then present her with all of it so she knows she was always welcome, always thought of (if you can't make things work out with OW).

Going to court over this and hiring legal assistance is so expensive and I know that things are tight for you. There is a lot to consider here.

Hey kt,
This sucks doesn't it? I hate the games that women like this play. They annoy you and me, but they really HURT the children involved. I have had a similar problem with My H's XW. She would let my husband see his son when she felt like it. She always had an excuse to deny holiday visits, even when she came to our city, on my H's weekend, on his holiday!! Women like this have pretty much been able to behave any way they want without real consequences. What I found worked was to give them some consequences, lol. They need LEGAL actions. Judges hate this behavior, but it needs to be shown in the courts. If she withholds visitation it is contempt. Plain and simple. HOWEVER, the judges don't care what you say, or what she says. They don't even seem to care about written documentation. They want the COPS! Involve the police each time she refuses a visitation day, then take a few police reports back to the judge, and see what he/she says. One pickup order, or contempt charge changes the bully almost like magic.
Don't give up yet.
Good luck.

Thanks guys. I'm praying too.

This weekend is "our" weekend and H doesn't even want me to pick OC up. He says he never wants to even hear thier (OW,OC)names again much less see OC. He says it will never end, it will always be like this for us. Thinks that even if we go to court OW will just continue to lie and it will take so long any way that those afterschool days will then be off of the calender by then any way and it won't even matter.

I could barely even get the whole story out of him because he doesn't even want to talk about it. (his normal reaction) OW flat out said she "never" agreed to it. He reminded her about when we all went to see a counselor (9 weeks worth) and we came to these agreements, she said, "what counselor?"

Maybe I'll look into this "contempt" thing and see what we can do there and how long it takes. It's frustrating for me because, legally, I can't do anything, he has to do it. We can't afford to waste another dime on a lawyer but if I really ahd the $$$ I'd sure as heck start looking for a really "good" one, one that was aggressive and not afraid to fight for our rights instead of just wanting us to "agree".

I think H just feels so trapped an dhopeless right now that he's just given up. Not much drive to fight when you know you always lose. I'm trying to encourage him not to give up and that he needs to assert his rights that way all these men can stop being taken advantage of!

Believe me, I'd much rahter be done with it all too, that has been my dream and prayer for some time. At the same time though, I want to see justice and I don't like to see OW manipulate and bully us into getting "her" way either. I guess I'm more into proving the point and getting what we deserve and what is right. Maybe that is the wrong motive too. OW never wanted us involved only the $$ (or my H) so I think that is why she manipulates the situations and tries to be so "innocently" difficult!

I'd rahter play ahrdball with her and when everything is all played out and all avenues are exhausted and we still lose, then give up. Maybe that is the wrong motive too. I just think someone has to stand up for these men's rights!

The ones who are NOT the dead beats are tehones getting hurt and screwed, the ones actually trying to do the "right thing".

You know why she doesn't want this afterschool day really? Because she doesn't want to have to drive to pick OC up ONE time every 3 weeks! That's her reason, "it doesn't work" for her. (she lives in another county from us and everything is 5 min. drive for her, OC school, work, home, daycare but not us)We do all the driving back and forth to school on our time, that would be her only transportation responsibility.

I'm really holding back emailing her and tellin her what I think about this. I'm trying to remind myself that we can be the "better people" and justice has to prevail eventually right? Or is that only in the comics? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

kt,
If there is any chance that your husband does want contact, he needs to show that he has consistantly tried, and failed. If he doesn't bother to show up for his visits (even though you know he had good reason for this) it looks bad to the judge. He needs to go to get the oc, and if she refuses, call the police in and get a report. I know it seems like she can do whatever she wants but that really is not the case. It is just hard because the burden is on you to prove that she is being difficult. Personally I think that they should have an office to enforce visitation just like they do child support.
On the other hand if he truly does not ever want contact, then try to let it go. eventually your life will be much easier for this. But talk to your H about what he truly wants to do, and try to jointly agree about your course of action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know why she doesn't want this afterschool day really? Because she doesn't want to have to drive to pick OC up ONE time every 3 weeks! That's her reason, "it doesn't work" for her. (she lives in another county from us and everything is 5 min. drive for her, OC school, work, home, daycare but not us)We do all the driving back and forth to school on our time, that would be her only transportation responsibility.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">kt

I am curious, if this is such a big deal for you both , and it is your time to have the child, why dont you just pick her up your self?

I am not saying you have to but if you didnt fight on such a little thing, maybe she would see that little things dont bother you and she would not be such a pain.

I dont know the whole story and mean no disrespect, just curious.

I often drive 40 miles one way in order to accomadate om or his wife schedule, , I dont do it for them, I do it because it makes things peaceful and better for my daughter, and a little time is not a big thing for someone you love. I know if I needed the same thing , they would do it with out question.

it takes a while to get to this point but if you can manage to get every one thinking about the children in time it gets easier. Sometimes we have to be the bigger person and show them how its done.

again just a thought,I mean no disrespect.

Mo5,

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am curious, if this is such a big deal for you both , and it is your time to have the child, why dont you just pick her up your self? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

KT said previously:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So H went today to p/u OC for scheduled after school day and OW refuses to let him take her. He then called the police. They finally showed up after an hour and decided that the "parenting agreement/court order" was "inconclusive". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> &

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know why she doesn't want this afterschool day really? Because she doesn't want to have to drive to pick OC up ONE time every 3 weeks! That's her reason, "it doesn't work" for her. (she lives in another county from us and everything is 5 min. drive for her, OC school, work, home, daycare but not us)We do all the driving back and forth to school on our time, that would be her only transportation responsibility. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

To me, that says that they (KT and her H) aren't the ones causing the problems or fighting over the little things. From all that I've read of KT's story, they have tried to be VERY involved for the OC's sake, and the xOW is making it difficult not only for KT and her H, but for the OC as well! KT and her H have been wanting to have this after school visit bad enough to have it discussed with a therapist which the xOW now claims never even happened and is also lieing about the agreement which is in black and white, which the cops even sided w/the xOW when shown the document! Personally, this is exactly why so many contact situations DON'T work! The xOW wants it HER way or not at all, not even considering even the OC's feelings in the matter!

JMHO

jt

not fighting , I was just curious,
I know compromising on all parts goes along way to making this work, I know because we are doing it.


there are always two sides... but thanks for sharing.

Thanks for all of your guys' support, I really need it right now and I really appreciate it.

Just for clarification, the afterschool day; we p/u OC from school then OW picks her up from our house to go home. All the other days are overnights so OW does not have to drive at all, ever. WE drive 2 freeways back and forth to take OC to and from school on our time. In the mornings it can sometimes be over an hour ONE way, not so bad for the afternoons.

I feel we have and are going, above and beyond, out of our way. We are always the ones being "civil" and "not making a scene" (well except once but she deserved it and said things about my BC in front of him, still haven't forgiven for that but sincerely trying too!)We are always trying to be the "better persons" and I'm beginning to think this is just the way you LOSE!

I know we should not miss any visits and I think this is what OW wants us to do. My pride alone will not let her get her way. I'm trying not to "push" my H (that's a LB for us) and let him cool off and then I think he'll agree to let me get her this weekend(I usually do and it is in the parenting agreement that I am allowed to "transport" OC, because he gets off work @ the same time OC gets off of school)

The other day was out of the ordinary in that sense. He was wise enough to advise that i not go this time and he would and I was wise enough to advise him to take the agreement with him, even though it did not work in our favor either way.

I just HATE OW right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She has done enough damage to my life so why should i even care about HER daughter MORE than OW does!!! WE are trying to do the right thing by providing this little girl with something she did not previously have, a real dad, sacrificing everything for her and this is the thanks and appreciation we get. AND OW was the one who CHOSE the NC initially!!!!!IT's really all about CONTROL!!

The least I will do is not let visitation lapse until we have our CS hearing to lower the CS. (Feb. 17th,it is currently based on only 15% visitation and we now have 40%) At least I can play a game in our favor right? Then let her try and go back to change it, which she never will because she is on welfare. whatever!!!!

aghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am depressed today and really getting in a mood. I better go use this angry energy more productively by cleaning or something!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

(sorry for all the typos on my other posts---too upset to proofread)

KT, first of all think of it this way....if it were an xwife would your h put up with it? He needs to make a stand. You have paperwork, and yes they mean something. She has no choice but to go along with it. Maybe one time in court being slapped with contempt would make her think of her child's needs before her own. Just because she is not married to your h does not mean he has to put up with any games. That is his child too. He's paying his child support (and even if he was not he still has all his rights). HOw awful for that child to have to see that. Maybe she has hard feelings towards your h, and maybe they are justified, but that is NO reason to use her child to piss him off and do the things she is doing. As much as I dispise xmm, if he chose to be a daddy to my daughter, it would be no different than the situation with my stbxh. Complicated more yes but no different. I would take her back to court.

I don't know about the x-wife thing but that would be way different from this. I think it would be safe to assume that an x spouse would be someone you could at least discuss and talk things out with, rationally.

But an update---We are NOT giving up C.....yet...at least not this weekend. But that's as far as H will go for now. He is not offering any further information about any "decisions" on how to (or if) to handle this situation.

I wish we never would have gotten involved. I really mean it.

The same ol' pattern every few months. Why do we keep hoping it will get better just to get shot down over some ridiculous point down the road. It feels like such a waste of time, knowing, it will probably always be like this. Every step we have taken to ensure everything is "clear" and there is no misunderstandings.....OW finds a way to "bend" or "twist" it to fit her preferance. It's like trying to negotiate with a 3 yo. I guess we have to write out our parenting agreement so detailed that the dumbest moron could not misinterpret it any way than what is intended. Tings that are so obviously clear to all of us, she now just says, "no, that's not what I agreed to"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Whatever. That's why I now stand on the NC fence!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

KT, she chose to bring you guys into this and yes I do feel he has just as much rights. Even when you had nc he had just as much rights....just by being the child's father. No matter who she was/is she should be able to put the child's needs first. There is no negigation on that. Does she have other kids too? Does she do this with her other kids? I would see where you would not want contact under those circumstances. I hope this weekend works out well for you guys.

KT, I'm sorry for your situation. You sound at the end of your rope. The child is how old? I'd expect several more years of this passive-agressive behavior on the mom's part; I don't think the mom will change, but as the child gets older (12-13?), her opinion will count for something. Are you and DH willing to keep fighting the mom until then? Yes, sometimes it has to be spelled out SO specifically, it's sad.

I know several situations where divorced parties are this angry and even worse. One friend was completely stonewalled by his ex-w in his relationship with his son. She threw away letters, wouldn't let child on the phone, left home when dad came to town, taught son to call dad by first name, etc. So this isn't just an OC thing. Some people can't share.

I'm feeling awnry and very anxious today, stomach is in knots and it's only morning. It's because I will be picking up OC from school today for regularly scheduled weekend. I doubt (I've always given her the benefit of it) OW will pull another stunt like the other day but never knowing 100% makes me sick to my stomach. I won't be @ peace until OC is in our car on our way home. I'm sure she (OC) will want to mention it too. I can't wait to hear OC version of the events.


BTW OC just turned 6...so 12 more years of ....???...(threw the most darling birthday tea party for her too, she did NOT like the tea though). OW has another C, 2 years younger then OC, no dad there either so we are the only ones she has to "share" with, which she does not like and has said that her other child has it much "better" then OC and is more "stable".

I'm tempted to email OW to ask if I should expect another "incident" today or if she is done making changes to and going against court order. I know I shouldn't provoke but I wish she would be upfront enough to give us clear signals instead of, as someone else put it, so "passive-aggressive". (that's even the same term the counselor had used and said you really have to watch out for those types!!! manipulating liar is more like it)

H had another severe "attack" (gall bladder) last night. I am convinced it's completely stress related. When things are going smooth, he can go months without having one, no matter what he eats....then when there is something stressful (usually related to OW & OC) he starts to have them numerous times a week even if he watches what he eats! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

edited to add: got email from OW regarding OC luggage so I guess things will be smooth today. passive-aggressive, passive-aggressive, passive-aggressive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

oops again

<small>[ January 23, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

oops

kt,,,,,,, i know that my oldest son's mom was not an other women but the things you write that your ow does are exactly like the things she would do. once when i picked him up for a court approved week summer visit she showed up on the door step with the sheriff and they took him back.
i had followed all the courts instructions as far as notifying her well in advance but didn't have my papers handy at the time she arrived. she even told them tat i was stealing him. it was a mess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


but i have to say that we stuck it out and never raised our voice at her or made any negative comments so my son could here. and thru all the pain has come an enormous amount of pleasure. all the crap was well worth it from the relationship that grew between me and my son. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, I don't know if it will ever be "worth" it but if anything I know that it will be that we did EVERYTHING we could to make it "work". That's all I can hope for, I will, at least have a clear conscience if nothing else.

I hope, if we stick it out, we try to file those contempt charges. I don't know if a judge would see it our way....but I can't keep this up knowing OW will not have consequences for her actions and will keep trying to scare/bully us into giving up.

Even if we don't "need" OC, I like to believe OC needs us.....in some way???

Sometimes it feels like we have nothing to offer but i try to remind myself that it's not about "me" (I KNOW) and how many kids really walk around telling you how grateful they are for you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Sometimes I think OW is right and OC would be better off without us.....BUT I am way to stubborn to put in THIS effort to begin with to let OW get her way!!!! For better or for worse!!!

okay...pity party over, thanks for attending! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

kt if you really want to "work it out" then go for it!

If not, I recommend you and H calling it a day and continue YOUR former life withpout all the grief.

You must tell your H you can no longer stand it and too bad for ow/oc....He may feel relief.

Just pay dear....money can't buy you happiness...and your happiness is what is important....

love
Debi

ok I think I know what you are talking about now. I never have a problem being open and honest about my feelings or opinons w/ H. I have made it very clear what I think about this situation and more recently the current state of events. BUT I also feel that HE should be the one to ultimately choose for 1) so there is no resentment later towards me and 2) so he can take full responsibility for his choice. I fully trust he will make the BEST decision fo rour familya nd will stick with him for it.

I HAVE to leave this one up to him because he has made some contradictory remarks about it, especially lately and some blame me. (like.... I don't want to be involved any more and I never did...meaning I forced him to? then....it hurts that I won't see OC again....meaning that he WANTS to?....) So I know he is just as frustrated and confused so I NEED him to be sure of his choices.

lol Communication has never been one of MY weak points..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />