im new here and ive found so much info to consider. but i havent seen this doozy presented yet. when husband and i were seeing each other-premarriage he was also seeing someone else. i got pregnant in july of 92. she got pregnant in may of 93 and i got pregnant in nov of 93. neither of us knew of the other until he ditzed us both and we both filed for child support. he disappeared until my children were 5 and 4 and the oc was 4. he came around and he and i got married. he had yet to have any contact with the oc. ow begins to call wanting him to have relationship with oc. meet child and bond but without me around. this would involve ow's presence since child is only 4 and has been raised by ow's husband and does not know stranger who is real father. she claimed this was in the best interest of the child. she continued to push the issue-we ignored it and moved to another town-still not knowing or seeing the oc. children are 7-6 and 6 now. she moved close to us and children were in school together. we began seeing child (legally) and ow pulled every trick in book to draw him there without me or our kids. he would disregard my suspicions of her manipulations and using the child to get to him. i soon became the bad person. resentment and anger soon followed and the deterioration of our marriage began. ow did not want to be seperated from oc in my husbands eyes. she was very bitter that he chose to make a family with us instead of her and oc. there was no way for us to see other child with out ow threating our marriage. i done the wrong thing and made him choose. us or the oc. he chose us and things were great. always was when she wasnt involved. i knew resentment was there for my demand but i seen no other way . in doing this i handed him to her on a plate. they had been sleeping together since i made my demand. for 8 months or more at the least. during that time she had become more smug in her disrespect of me and he got meaner and nastier with me. i begged him to tell me what was going on. he denied anything was. the day i found out he ended the affair and contact with the oc. the ow is livid. she tried to get him fired for having sex with her at his work. sent letters to me with dates and info i didnt need to hear. left screaming voicemails on our machine with threats and name calling and that he would never see oc again as long as i was around. how bad a father he was and stepfather was more of a dad than him. how she wished i would drop dead. we had to file a complaint against her harrassing us. no word for 6 months though she has pulled a couple of distant jabs to upset me. i know that the inevidable is coming. he is going to want to see oc again and i am terrified because she wants him badly and he sides with her on her feelings of whats best for the child and sees me as the one who started this with my demand. i feel like they are both against me. all i want them to do is treat this situation with the respect it deserves and if indeed the goal here is to be the best interest of the child then quite using the child for your own selfish reasons. i need them both to respect me and our marriage and i need to see that. i already suspect their talking again behind my back. i see no choose here but to walk away from my marriage so that husband can see oc and i can get away from ow. you cant talk to him and make him understand how you feel. thats why i copied all of these concepts-to make things right. he doesnt act interested. and im out of faith. i may sound selfish but i want ow to just go away before she destroys are marriage again. i honestly think hes flattered that she wants him so bad. he sees the pain she causes but does nothing to stop her. should i just give in and go along with this game they are playing. or should we completely stay away from ow and oc until oc is old enough to come to us on her own. please give me some answers. i am so lost in this mess.

My suggestion is that the two of you find a counselor and get together on handling this situation. Look on this site for the POJA.
If he insists on seeing the OC, then you have to decide whether to support it or not.
However, if the child is 6 years old, he? can spend the night away from home. A 6 six year old doesn't need his mother. At 6 they should start to spend time away from home. He goes to school with out his mother right? Then he should be ablt to spend the night away from home and mom.
She may be trying to manipulate the situation and you have to be strong and not allow her to do that. She has to accept you as her child's stepmother, because you are for all intents and purposes.

Decide what you want and if your marriage is what you want then fight for it, but don't do it aggressively. Use the the ideas of the Harleys and go for it.

Good luck,
Texasgirl

tlatsa,,,,,,, i know that i may be speaking against the philosophies of this site but from what i read in your post i have to say that in your shoes i would cut and run. find a new partner in life that would respect me and make a life together with ME. i am not saing i would go out and find the first available mate. just that you deserve better then what he is offering.

he doesn't sound very responsible, mature or even caring. he obviously has no idea of what he wants in his life other then the world to revolve around him.

have to run off to socer but will post more later

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong> My suggestion is that the two of you find a counselor and get together on handling this situation. Look on this site for the POJA.
If he insists on seeing the OC, then you have to decide whether to support it or not.
However, if the child is 6 years old, he? can spend the night away from home. A 6 six year old doesn't need his mother. At 6 they should start to spend time away from home. He goes to school with out his mother right? Then he should be ablt to spend the night away from home and mom.
She may be trying to manipulate the situation and you have to be strong and not allow her to do that. She has to accept you as her child's stepmother, because you are for all intents and purposes.

Decide what you want and if your marriage is what you want then fight for it, but don't do it aggressively. Use the the ideas of the Harleys and go for it.

Good luck,
Texasgirl </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">what is a poja? what happens here? the other child is 9 now. (she) she can come here by herself-she used to before the a started. but since h came back to me ow will not let child around while i am here and expects h to see oc at her home or pick her up without me present. i will not stand for that and my h chooses to not react or do anything right now. there has been no contact since the discovery.we could go to court and enforce the visitation we already have but he doesnt seem to want to take it that far. i think hes waiting on it to all blow over and then try to resume seeing the oc. although he blames me for not seeing the oc because i cant trust him and the ow-it is she who wont let oc around because she was dumped by him. shes on one side saying you cant see your child because you dumped me and went back to your wife(she actually had it in her head that she was going to take my place and they would be the happy little family now) and im on the other side saying. if we involve oc in picture and i dont want contact between h and ow-just for the simple fact that i am demanding it - it will happen. thats what got us in this mess before. i cant trust them together. she wants him and he will give in. even if im there with them they will converse behind my back because i am perceived as the bad one here to make such a demand in the first place. she will get to him sooner or later. she already said upon being discovered that we wont last-that he doesnt love me. shes waiting in the wings for her opportunity. she knows he wants to see oc and she knows the trouble it will cause between him and i and she will use that to her best advantage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pops:
<strong> tlatsa,,,,,,, i know that i may be speaking against the philosophies of this site but from what i read in your post i have to say that in your shoes i would cut and run. find a new partner in life that would respect me and make a life together with ME. i am not saing i would go out and find the first available mate. just that you deserve better then what he is offering.

he doesn't sound very responsible, mature or even caring. he obviously has no idea of what he wants in his life other then the world to revolve around him.

have to run off to socer but will post more later </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thanks pops. you are so right but i still love him

Have you read the Home page for this Board?
Dr. Harley's teachings are listed, among them is the POJA
I copied this paragraph from one his letters.


"The Policy of Joint Agreement is nothing more than a rule that says you will care for each other with every decision you make,....."

I came here after we had resolved our problems, but I was still dealing with my feelings about the OC. I have found much support and many good thoughts here.
The most common recommendation I have seen from others is the Policy of Joint Agreement.
Go to the Home page and look for it. See if it is something you can put together. Hope this helps you out.

Texasgirl

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Texasgirl ]</small>

I'd like to add that the Policy for Joint Agreement (POJA) is so that both people in the marriage will not make any decision without the enthusiastic agreement of the other person.
While you demand (though reasonable) for your husband to consult you about contact with OC may not be in alignment with Harley priciples or MB, it is still something almost all of us do when the WS is being secretive, manipulative or in their foggy thinking (not putting their priorities in order)

If your husband is resentful because you made a stand, what about YOU being resentful for having secret contact with OW? I think what he has done far surpasses your reaosnable reaction to his behavior.

Besides...isn't the OW married? What does HER HUSBAND think about all this? Is he aware that she will kick him to the curb like yesterday's trash if she can run off with YOUR husband? What is she going to do with her hsuband if she can run off with your spouse?

They are both hideous people, IMO, and I agree with Pop's opinion completely. IF you "think" you love him, it is often because you feel you are being rejected and some people will fight for a toxic relationship just to win the WS (the booby prize) away from the OW. After everything so many of us have gone through, after the horrible way you have been treated, and the fact your hsuband is completely disloyal to you makes me think that this must be the case. Your Ow might be more aggressive because her affair with your husband began around the same time yours did and she probably thinks she has territorial rights or thinks she knows him as well as you do.

I hope you will examine whether you really love him (it doesn't sound like he has done anything to be worthy of your love) or you just want to "win": or if this is just some romanticized notion of what you think is love...and the fear of rejection or fear of a victorious, smug OW.

When a spouse, after having done so much damage which includes doing the worst possible thing that can happen in a marriage, is unwilling or uninspired to go to the mat for the Betrayed Spouse, then the WS is not worth the angst.

The OW (perp) may be manipulating things, but she is not doing it alone...she has an accomplice...your husband. He is allowing this woman to disrespect you for his own pathetic ego gratification. She can't destroy you wihtout his help.

Good luck, God bless...and rethink some of your options and feelings.

Catnip =^^=

Edited for brain-fry; atrocious spelling errors and poor sentence structure.

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

tlatsa,,,,,

-----------------------------
thanks pops. you are so right but i still love him
-----------------------------
fair enough. but let me ask you why? and that is not intended sarcasticly.

i would like to know what it is about this guy that has you thinking that he is worth this anquish. is he the worlds greatest lover? hardly believeable. is he the best looking guy on the face of the planet? again i have to say hardly. does he treat you with unrelenting respect? you have indicated not. is he considerate of your feelings? again your state no. does he show you and stand by you when you voice concern about his actions? no, no, no.

so what is he deal.

your h reminds me of my oldest d's h. she was very rebellous in her teens and we actually had to turn her out (tough love) until SHE saw the error of her life style and made the choice to straighten out her life. which she did. she met a seemingly nice guy at the time and they were married. within a year this guy moves out at xmas leaving her with 2 kids (one that is h) with no money for food or rent. she bends over backwards to make him happy and he comes back home. minding you that my advice to her was to file on the sob and protect herself and her kids. things are a little bumpy for about another year and when xmas roles around again he gives her $150 for the family shopping ( and has $8000 in cash in his moms safe) and tells her he is moving out for 6 months to see if she can make it on her own. you see the guy is a jerk. he works in his shop 7 days a week from 9 am - 11 pm ( half the time the buds are there and they are just hanging out. i know because i've been there) and doesn't come home at all some times. doesn't help with the kids. if she is sick he comes home at 11pm and makes her cook him dinner and then doesn't eat it. leaves for weekend motor cycle trips without telling her untill the morning of the trip. leaves her with no money for food or gas when he goes. he is trying to become a hells angel and rides with them. he will become a member in less then a year. imagine that, a probation period to become a hells angel. go figure.

anyhow the point is i ask her why she feels she loves she loves him? her replies are she doesn't want to feel like a failure for a failed mariage, how is she going to make it without him finacialy, when he is nice he is nice, she thinks she will never find anyone else to accept her with 2 kids and she doesn't want to move back in with us. all of which don't say that she loves him. and oh yeah i also think she is afraid of him being violent. he has a very intimidating look shaved head, tatoos and he is a big guy who likes to fight.

what she is missing is that you can't change a zebras stripes. i think the same goes for your h's stripes.

this is just mho from what you have wrote.

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

you seem to be very wise for a man and i dont mean that in a bad way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i know he sounds like an ogre-hes not really like that- but when the ow and oc is in the picture he instantly puts my feelings second with anything to do with them and the battle begins and it gets ugly and nasty and its at these times i am wondering what im doing here. when they are not in the picture he is wonderful and kind and considerate and loving. its when i have something to say about her that he gets ugly. i know a lot of it is my fault because i can not and will not tolerate this ow intruding in our lives the way she does. i know full well my h is the enabeler here but the more i try to tell him that the harder we fight. i can not get him to see her manipulative and selfish ways.he always defends her in one way or the other and it infuriates me. the oc called tonight on the answering machine out of the blue. mind you now 6 months ago when the a was discovered the ow cut all contact.havent heard nothing until tonight. oc is on the machine saying hi daddy its ------. wanted to know if you wanted to buy some girl scout cookies-call me love you bye. this just struck me as odd since her mother has used her as a pawn these past few months and oc calls out of the blue as if we talked to her yesterday. we heard someone whisper something as she was saying bye. my gut is screaming again just like before.we are at it again and im just fed up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong> Have you read the Home page for this Board?
Dr. Harley's teachings are listed, among them is the POJA
I copied this paragraph from one his letters.


"The Policy of Joint Agreement is nothing more than a rule that says you will care for each other with every decision you make,....."

I came here after we had resolved our problems, but I was still dealing with my feelings about the OC. I have found much support and many good thoughts here.
The most common recommendation I have seen from others is the Policy of Joint Agreement.
Go to the Home page and look for it. See if it is something you can put together. Hope this helps you out.

Texasgirl </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i copied everything there is to copy from dr harley. i read it and i was really excited about doing this together. i showed it to him-its been 5 days and he hasnt read it yet. he says that im going to copy anything that sides with me or pertains to helping me. of course we were arguing about the ow and oc when he said that.

tla,,,,,,,, i am not saying this to be mean or nasty in anyway. but like i said about the stripes of a zebra. you are seeing only the parts of your h that you want to. the same as my own daughter. her h won't change for at least 10 more years and i feel neither will yours. but what i feel does not matter.

i would suggest this to you. print out your initial post here. then in every spot where you refer to yourself insert your best friends name and in every spot that your h's name appears insert her h's name. then read thru it and ask yourself what advice you would give her.

thank you for the compliment. unfortunately i have had the chance to experience many of lifes wierd experiences. one of the misfortunes of a large family.

TL...I've got a question: Is your H paying child support? Have the TWO of you gotten legal advice?

This child is six now, that is old enough by far to have her available for normal visitation with her father. (and you and her bros/sisters) If you've gone through the legal channels then your H should have his legal rights spelled out. IF he have not gone through these steps...then this is the first thing he should be doing, and you should be encouraging him to follow this path.

He has a legal and jmho a moral obligation and hopefully a wish to support his OC both with $$ and emotionally to be available for her, just as he has with the two children you two share. All the children have a right to have the love and support of all the adults in their lives, without regard to the likes and dislikes between those adults.

As for the manipulations that you feel this OW is doing...she can only do this if your H allows it. Yes, she can make things difficult, much more difficult then they need be, but much of what you wrote about can be ended by court order. She can NOT keep you from being an active part of your H's child's life when he has visitation. She can not make herself a part of that visitation. UNLESS he lets her!

Considering he's gone back and forth between the two of you prior to your marriage and also after, I don't find her to be the real issue...he is! You can NOT control his actions anymore then she can. Yes, each of you may try and he may or may not give over to one or the other...but he is the one making the choice...NO ONE else.

God Bless!

i know that he is the culprit here. ive told him over and over that he needs to put a stop to this. his response is always " ignore it - i cant control what she does. stop letting her get to you. " my reply is " thats the route we took last time-while i was ignoring her-you started sleeping with her." so obviousley ignoring her is not a good answer. i want him to tell her that we are trying to rebuild our marriage and to just stay away. leave us alone. and he wont do it-he honestly thinks he has done enough by apologizing and just the fact that hes here everything should be okay. its not okay...because the reason that got us in to this nightmare is still here. yes we have visitation ( we barely know the child because of the trouble it causes-we end up not getting her because of that. and yes he pays child support. i honestly am not to the stage where i can trust any interaction between these two. and if the oc child is involved in our life-there will be interaction between him and her-if not in front of me then behind my back. its obvious they cant focus on the child without focusing on each other. and i cant even begin to trust him with his attitude the way it is. he thinks i have to trust him from the get go. that he doesnt need to earn that trust back. he gets seriously angry when i question him about anything. or want to go along with him somewhere. he thinks i use the kids as watchdogs over him. ill call him at work during the day because i miss him-just to say hi-love you...he thinks im checking on him. ive even asked him to call the ow and tell her how we want to handle visitation and that there will be no contact with her. he wont do it in front of me. he never would talk to her in front of me. before-he had a reason he was sleeping with her. there is no reason now. so why the reaction ? im ready to walk away and let them have each other. i cant deal with her and the oc and i cant deal with his way of handeling it. he just doesnt seem to be on the up and up to me.

tla,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, your last post pushed me over the top on how I view your h's actions from your discription of such.

he still has very strong feelings for ow in more then dhe is just oc mom. and in mho he may very well be sleeping with her still. i see no reason for his secrecy or distemper when you question him on things. he is the one that brought this all on not you.

by saying he can't control what she does, does that mean even sleeping with him?

i think that he most likely thinks that he has controled the situation between the two of you for so long that you will never break and really set a boundary for him. this is exactly what i feel happened between fullhouse and myself. i had been so forgiving and would do practically anything she asked no matter how out of the way it was just to make her happy she achieved a false sense of security that i would always forgive her no matter what.

your h has that same false sense of security that you will always be there no matter what he does so your concerns are not real to him. he has no idea of how much damage he has done to you.

i would suggest that you give him the boundaries you are willing to live in with this situation and talk to a lawyer about how to best protect yourself and your kids in the event of a divorce. that doesn't mean you have to file for one or get one. just secure the knowledge so you can be confident if that scenerio should arise.

something has to slap him up side the head so that he understands where your feelings are. he has no clue right now.

this is just how i see things thru a mans eyes if i were in his shoes. which 28 years ago i was.

I know I may have sounded harsh in my first post, but I wanted to be sure that you and your H had taken those steps which were available to you. Since you have...and it still isn't working as it should...

I agree with Pops!!! For the most part! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> His read may be right on track and would be the very first one I would explore. However, there is also the fact that you ARE a betrayed spouse, therefore, your reactions to any contact between your H and OW while perfectly normal could be misconstruted. I know...trust your gut...but when our guts are in a knot, it is often not trustworthy either...it's in protect "me" mode (perfectly reasonable)...and may be seeing shadows where none are.

The issue is that your H is NOT willing to do a little extra...ok...a lot extra, to give you a sense of security in your marriage where this woman is concerned. He should be WANTING to do some of those things within his power to help you calm things down on the home front...and he's not doing that, instead he's making it worse! WHY?????????????

Is it because as pops said he's still too involved personally with this OW? Or is it a male powertrip he's on having to prove to himself that he's not going to let you have any seemingly power in your marriage? Is he just a butt? Is he hiding something? Does he need to know that you'll put up with it because he needs that type of reassurance that he is loved? Is drinking involved? What other inner marital issues are being confronted, what other are not?

Know you're in a terrible position...wish I had a magic wand to take it all away or the words of wisdom that would show the way to the path that would lead you and your family to peace. Sadly I do not.

May God grant you the wisdom and the courage to face the trials ahead and may you find peace and love and contentment as you walk your healing path under His watchful eye.

pops,,,, your wife is a very lucky woman to have someone like you. ive read some of her posts on here and am touched by both of your insights. you two seem to really have what it takes to sustain a healthy wonderful marriage. i have to tell you that i dropped the bomb on him last night. when he wouldnt converse with her on our plans with me present i became infuriated and as we are getting nowhere fast i didnt see much to lose at this point other then uprooting my children to a different place and a lower standard of living. i told him that he obviousely did not want to repair the damage done and instead wanted to keep her around to cause more trouble and that it was fine. if she and the oc are that important to him then he could have them. and i would walk away. so i basically gave him a choice. them or us. i know it was probably the stupidest thing i could have done. i done it before and lost i guess i need another swift kick to get the message. but i am exhausted. from worry and fear and anger and hurt and fighting and yes loving. you are so right i just wish i could get it through my head. we will see what tonight brings when i get home from work. hell resent me for this but never as much as i resent him right now. i cant even begin to pick up the poja. i dont think either of us could follow it with her around. i just dont see how.

i know i percieve things about the ow in the worst way possible. i can not look at this woman in any other light. my gut has always been right concerning her. shes quite obvious in her games that she plays with other peoples lives. this woman has always wanted to be where i am and she didnt even push h to see oc until he and i brought our family together.and oc was almost 7. this woman has 3 children all with different absent fathers and she sits back and collects child support from all of them for a living. she has no qualms about sleeping with half the county-married or not. she did divorce her husband when she thought she had her claws in mine and that she was taking my place. all of her little plans went down the drain when i found out and he came back. she will not stop there. she is even more livid,determined and convinced that we will not make it and as long as she keeps the oc in the picture chances of that happening are even greater. we fought last night over this again. h is saying he will meet me half way and not have anything to do with ow but wants to see oc. for the life of me i cant do it. the oc is too much of a trigger for me. i already have this a in my face 24/7. everything reminds me of him and her. i just pray for it to all go away. as for what my h is like...he is very domineering. he likes to call all the shots. he has a temper when called upon. he does not take criticisim well at all. hes very stern and strict. he doesnt drink. there is a soft side to him and that is what i fell in love with. when we argued last night he told me to write down exactly what i wanted him to do concerning ow and oc and he wants a date of when i will be able to handle resuming contact with oc. i cant answer that. it may be 3 months 6-2-24-never. i dont know. today i dont ever want to see oc ever again. i dont know if i will ever feel any different about that. his response to that was i will drag it out until shes grown. i just cannot fathom how he would give up our family and our marriage and our life together for a child that we barely know. he keeps saying its the right thing to do . its a moral issue. i want to know where his morals were 6 months ago when he chose to sleep with her mother again after we were married? did his morals all of a sudden kick in? hes offended because i said i could handle this when the a was over and he came back. he said i promised him that. of course i thought i could. he dumped her and she made it quite clear he would not see oc with me in the picture. i knew he wouldnt pursue it in court and i thought all of our troubles were over. i knew with time the pain of the a would go away. 6 months later now ow sees he isnt going to pursue contact and starts her little games again and here we are ... on the verge of divorce again over this issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> i thought okay...we will draw up a letter for lawyer to forward stating when the time is right we will forward another letter stating when where and how we will handle visitation with oc with the understanding that there will be nc with the mother. i think i could do this - for his sake only. i think he would do this too. i know for a fact she will go bazerk with it. she will not agree to it and she will proceed to make our life hell. she will perceive this as him putting us above her and oc. i just dont know which way to go. either way we go one of us will have resentment for the other and our marriage will not survive that. cut the strings and go at least that way everyone would have a fair chance of happiness somewhere down the road. thanks for listening to me garble. he thinks this is stupid for me to be on here taking the advice of other people who cant figure out their own problems. i think he should get on here and see with his own eyes the pain that is inflicted on a spouse that was betrayed and lied to and cheated on and the life they have to adjust around and accomodate to because of his actions.

TLA,

Have you read about Plan A/B? You may want to post on the Plan A/B part of this forum to get some advice as to how to impliment it in your situation. I, personally, would think of implimenting Plan B, as it will help keep you from LB'ing(love busting), and save any love you have left for your H.

I wish that I had some better advice for you at this point.

Good Luck,

Tigger

thanks tigger4ajt...i will reread plan a and b to see if thewres anything there we can do.

i will reread plan a and b to see if thewres anything there we can do.
Plan A and Plan B are NOT something you do together with your spouse. It is what you do alone when your spouse will not end an affair.

Read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr WIllard Harley.
Read the links below.