We just celebrated 15 years of marriage and I became more convinced that it is time to end this marriage. I'm just so tired. I want my children to have a full-time father but I am so stressed in this situation, I don't know that they are truly benefitting. But I hang it there for them, but also for me and the hope that the wonderful man that I know lives inside this strange body will again emerge.<P>He refuses counseling. I have attended on my own. I have also just recently realized that he has a problem w/drinking and it appears drugs also now. Although he would not consider it a "problem" With the drinking, he was never a "sloppy" drunk, always held it well. I am just realizing that the frequency of the drinking is a major indicator of a problem. His field of work requires that he entertain often, so he drinks at lunches, dinners, etc. However, when I started to look at this, he is not only drinking for "work", but almost every recreational activity involves drinking. He was out so often, I suppose I never thought much about the frequency. Now he is "around" more, but he goes next door almost nightly and drinks w/them for hours. This crowd, I have learned is also doing the drugs. They justify its "insignificance" as this drug is often used for "medicinal" purposes and feel that it may as well be legalized since so many use it. (get my drift?) <BR>Anyway, I have spoken to him about both of these things, the drugs being more urgent right now. First he lied and said he stopped. I found out that he started again. He is "somewhat" in the job market and I could not understand why he would risk this. I was told by my neighbor that "the crowd" knows of some purification product that will ensure that he will pass any drug test. How you get through to a person who thinks like this. His only concern is getting caught!<P>He was the hero child of an alcoholic father and I am concerned about this drinking. His sister even mentioned at our party that it looked like H is picking up where Daddy left off. H asked, whats wrong w/that?<P>So not only am I dealing w/the after-affects of multiple affairs, I am also dealing with substance abuse. I wonder which came first you know...abuse led to affairs, affairs led to abuse...I just don't know what to do.<P>I have virtually eliminated lovebusters (I'll admit,an occassional one here and there) This is a good thing, because it has opened my eyes to much of what I could not see before. Our communication sucks! He shuts me out on anything that has to do w/me or us. Yet, he still confuses love w/sex. As long as were having sex, he assumes everything is ok. But of course, when he dismisses anything I may want to express, how would he know?<P>He is a major conflict-avoider and the mixed messages are driving me nuts. He will admit to you, if ever asked, that I have no problem w/giving him his space. (My Dad said I gave him too much space!) Yet, he will still "lie" to get out of the house. I don't get it. He is still doing the "I'm going here" thing that takes 30 minutes, when he knows he simply wants to get out for awhile. Then he'll call hours later to say where he is and when he'll be home. Well, that never happens either. So why call? This happens whether he is cheating or not. It reminds me of adolescent behavior actually. He often manipulates the situation by suggesting he's going out to do something to benefit me or family/household when he's just really trying to get on the other side of the door! I know this is the case because he doesn't do what he said he would. Ends up doing, whatever. He says what he thinks I want to hear so it becomes difficult to trust anything he says or does because what is really the truth?<P>This is just a sampling of what I'm feeling. I just cannot imagine another 15 years w/this marriage. I'm tired of being shut out and dismissed. I'm tired of doing all of the giving while he does all of the taking. I'm tired of getting "bottom" billing. I'm tired of being manipulated and lied to.<P>Honesty has emerged as a huge need for me. Not unlike Pilot's Wife's survey, affection, conversation and family support are biggies also. I have told him this many times. In fact, I wrote him a letter awhile ago about this very same thing. He didn't read it for 2 weeks. He told me when he read it. I asked when we could discuss. He said tonight. Well, that night, he didn't want to. So I asked when and he said soon. I asked, when is soon. I don't know. Mind you, we have conversations still pending from years ago! Its not going to happen.<P>Tell me, is it time to throw in the towel?<P>Thanks in advance for your replies.<P>

Enlightened -<P>I'm so sorry for all that you have had to deal with. I know exactly what it is like.<P>I'm going to be real honest here... I am trying to help my SIL and B through this same scenario minus the drugs..so yours is even worse.<P>It doesn't come down to drinking, drugs or affairs - those are the escapes he feels that he needs!! He is running away from himself!! <P>There are major self-esteem issues here and unless he gets into AA and possibly a drug program he can not even begin to deal with the real cause of his addictions and problems. Forget about actually rebuilding a marriage - he will never understand fully any of what he needs to do let alone follow through with beginning to try.<P>You are in for a very long and rocky road!!!! He needs some intense counseling and has alot of unacknowledged issues. They will not even come to light without him giving up the drinking and of course the drugs.<P>He has to want help and for that must realize that he has a problem - very tough first step!!! My B has a drinking problem which led to infidelities. He loves his wife but when life gets the least bit stressful he escapes into the drinking and the"crowd" such as you describe that H has with these people that he hangs with.<P>It's a vicious circle and I have only just gotten my SIL to start saying "If it's not a problem, then why do it if it is something that hurts me and I don't like it?" when my B says that he has no problem and can stop anytime. He tries to blunder around with how that is her problem and he enjoys it. A response to that would be - "Well, there are things that I enjoy that I don't do because you don't like it - that is called compromising and consideration of your feelings and I can do it because I love you!!"<P>I don't know if any of this can help ou with your situation - I can only share what my experience with this kind of situation has showed me.<P>A key to helping him is timing...When he has been drinking - no matter if you think he's not effected by it - their mind is not functioning properly. No amount of talking will get through. In alot of these situations something traumatic has to happen before they even consider the possibility that they might indeed need to change something.<P>HUGS and Strength to you,<P>Sheba<P>PS - I guess it comes down to how much you can handle and wait for as to whether you want to stick with it.<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 07, 1999).]

Enlightened,<P>I think you are the only one who can really decide when to throw the towel. But if I were you, I would look back and re-check that within 15 years how long has he been like that. Because if he did that just recently, he might need you the most by this time. I am not saying that you should stay in a situation that made you unhappy, it is really you who know your own strength and resistance. If you think that there is no other way, then maybe you should for your own sake.<P>My prayer is with you.<P>Saskia

Thanks Sheba-<P>I think you are right. He always drank but the frequency and amount have increased over the years. Too bad for me that I am just realizing the problematic nature of this. I was so distraught over his actions that directly affected me and our marriage, I never even considered that the drinking was, in fact, a problem. As I am finding out now, he has also "dabbled" with drugs before, but now it appears to be a regular use thing.<P>I think he may also be misinformed because his dad was an "angry" alcoholic and H does not outwardly display this. His experience, like mine, w/"alcoholics" was the more stereotypical, slurred speech, staggering type.<P>When I factor in these addictions, our current marital struggle seems to make more sense (if that's possible) I think you're right that it is next to impossible to deal w/marital issues when we have these other problems.<P>So I'm somewhat clueless on how to effectively approach the substance abuse. He refuses marital or individual counseling, and won't admit to any abuse "problem" You're right, he has to want help by first acknowledging a problem. How do I get him to acknowledge the problem?

Saskia-<P>I'm reaching the end of my rope, but I'm realizing (w/Sheba's help) that the substance abuse is probably creating more problems than I ever knew. Neither drinking nor drugs(apparently) is just recent, however, frequency and amounts have increased over time.<P>I know how hard it has been to deal w/infidelities, etc., I don't know that I have the strength to deal w/addictions.<P>

Hi Enlightened -<P>Being a night owl, like me, huh???<P>How to get him to acknowledge - like I <BR>said that is the toughest part of all <BR>of this.<P>I have found that the first thing that <BR>you can do is to figure out the <BR>pattern. There is usually something in <BR>thier lives that triggers more <BR>drinking and therefore more problems. <P>With my B it was certain stressful <BR>situations like work at its busy time, <BR>if my SIL was sick, if he was <BR>emotionally upset by something - like <BR>an argument with someone or was sad <BR>about something, etc. We kind of kept <BR>track for a while of when his bad <BR>times were and figure out this <BR>pattern.<P>Start keeping a journal of the things <BR>that are happening. Write down <BR>everything that goes on. Every little <BR>drinking time, drugging time, being <BR>distant and/or wanting this crowd <BR>time, etc. See if you can relate any <BR>of this negative behavior with some <BR>incident or some stress or emotional <BR>time for him. After a while you will <BR>probably see a pattern emerging. That <BR>can help define what the triggers are <BR>that he needs to escape from.<P>Besides the journal, I can suggest the <BR>question that I mentioned in my first <BR>post about stopping if not a problem. <BR>When he denies - use the followup that <BR>I also wrote.<P>Do not try to get through to him at <BR>all if he has been drinking or using <BR>drugs. Will be a waste of breath and <BR>will only frustrate you further. <P>For yourself, you must concentrate on <BR>making home a safe and pleasant <BR>environment (same as with infidelity) <BR>and do all in your power not to <BR>lovebust especially when he's <BR>drinking. You must be consistant in <BR>your love for him but also in your <BR>dislike of his behavior and disregard <BR>of your feelings. His behavior is not <BR>acceptable and is ruining his health <BR>to boot!!!!<P>Love and stability can go a long way.<P>The sad fact with a lot of these <BR>situations is that sometimes only a <BR>traumatic event will shake them up <BR>enough to get help. You must keep in <BR>mind that this might be what will have <BR>to happen for your H.<P>With my B, He had a car accident last <BR>winter in snow and it shook him up. <BR>He was very good for quite a while <BR>after that......but it wasn't <BR>traumatic enough to shake him loose of <BR>it completely. <P>My B and I are very close. What I <BR>have been going through with my <BR>marriage pains him deeply. I am his <BR>baby sister and he can't help or say <BR>too much because he had his own <BR>infidelities - this weighs heavily on <BR>his guilt I think. He hasn't been too <BR>bad lately. If and when an incident <BR>occurs - I fully plan to approach him <BR>and be as honest as I can with how he <BR>better look at what he is doing and <BR>stop causing the kind of pain that I <BR>have been going through. This will be <BR>traumatic for him and might nudge him <BR>in the right direction.<P>Nothing is sure, though!!<P>A lot of praying couldn't hurt, <BR>either.<P>Don't know what else accept maybe <BR>intervention by someone he respects <BR>and might listen to.<P>Hope some of this helps you and just <BR>know that I am here for you anytime <BR>you need me.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <P>PS - I can't believe that I forgot <BR>this - Go to a couple of meetings for <BR>wives of Alcoholics. I'm sure there <BR>are some in your area - they have <BR>groups all over. They will help you <BR>to understand how big the effects of <BR>drinking can turn into. They will <BR>help you learn how to cope with things <BR>better for yourself and for your H.<P>You don't have to commit to the group <BR>and go all the time - simply learn <BR>what you can from them. I agree with <BR>their assessment to a point - I have <BR>trouble with their not really delving <BR>into the causes of the drinking and <BR>focusing more on the disease aspect. <BR>They are very helpful though. Read <BR>about alcoholism also and possibly go <BR>to a substance abuse counselor <BR>yourself and see if they can aid you. <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 07, 1999).]

Sheba-<BR>Thanks for the suggestions. Journaling the drinking won't be difficult since pretty much daily. He won't admit to the drugs so I can pretty much assume when that occurs based on the "crowd" time.<P>Finding someone for an intervention will be more difficult. The people that he respects all drink like him and would not see much of a problem. A couple of others I can think of don't have abuse problems, but he tries to limit contact w/them unless he is sure he can keep them fooled. You see, my H, is very charismatic and looked up to. In fact, when I suggested to family and friends years ago that I thought he was cheating, every single one of them laughed at me...figured I had to be nuts. Earlier in the summer when I seriously began to question the substance abuse, again they laughed. He appears so "clean-cut", etc. that it is just so hard to believe anything negative about him. Geez, he even had me fooled for quite some time, so I do understand their disbelief. I will, however, give some serious thought to whom I will approach for an intervention.<P>I will also check on AL-ANON(?)for myself. I need as much help as I can get. The frustration of this situation is endless!<P>Thanks for your insight!

Hi Enlightened...<P>I'm sorry that you are dealing with all of this. It's a lot to handle. What I can suggest is attending a few Alanon meetings. They will give you support, show you ways in which you can build defenses, how to take care of yourself, when living with a alcoholic/drug abuser.<P>My H is an alcoholic. The alcohol came first, and then the infidelity later. My H used to be a major conflict avoider too. He used alcohol as his escape from reality. Also, he wanted to hang out with the gang from work that hung out in bars and drank too. Thank goodness, all those destructive habits (alcohol & affair) came to an end (I hope permanently). But, it didn't end until he hit close to rock-bottom. He also did admit that he had a drinking problem which we went to counseling for.<P>It sounds like your H seriously needs some professional counseling or AA program. He needs to admit that he has a substance abuse problem, but he is the only one who must admit that for himself. I hope that he doesn't have to hit rock-bottom before he realizes the pain & harm that he is causing to you, your children & to himself.<P>Nothing will change until your H can honestly admit that he has a problem and wants to help himself.<P>I believe that the substance abuse is the ROOT of the problem (that's what our therapist said).<P>Right now, if your H won't seek counseling, then you should seek counseling for yourself (and also <BR>for your children, if they are old enough). Focus on taking care of yourself. As you do that, the answers will come to you....if you should stay with him or leave.<P>I hope this advice helps. Good luck to you and God bless...

NoTrust-<BR>Yes, your advice helps. It is so much to deal with. Escape is his MO, I suppose he has been escaping to alcohol and drugs also. Doesn't alcohol act like a depressant? What would the result be in his dealing w/me? Is that what contributes to conflict-avoidance?<P>I'm rambling, sorry. I have to take some time to digest this. I<P>I just thought about this running joke that his "crowd" has...they say they are not alcoholics...because they don't go to those meetings. This is far from a "problem" in his eyes.<P>Thanks for your input!

Enlightened....<P>I'm glad that my advice can help you. But I know that it is easier said than done.<P>We struggle with the problem everyday. I still don't completely trust my H. Everyday, I hope that he doesn't stop at a bar or drink any alcohol because then it brings us back to square one and he acts irrational and weird again.<P>Yes, alcohol acts like a depressant. And, when the alcoholic quits drinking, they have withdrawal and mood swings. For several months, while my H was staying away from alcohol, he took me on a crazy mood rollercoaster ride with him. The OW was long gone out of the picture, but his mood swings were sometimes unbearable.<P>Yes, I think that possibly the alcohol and drugs may be some type of outlet for your H when he wants to avoid conflict. But, it seems that the alcohol and drugs is now controlling him and making him act irrational. His thinking is impaired and that's why he acts so insensitive and strange.<P>I'm sure that he hangs around with "his" crowd because they all support each other in their bad habits. When he hangs around with those people, his attitude may be, "Well, they are doing it....so there musn't be anything wrong with me doing it too!"<P>Anyway, I'm starting to ramble now. Please get the help you need to take care of yourself and your kids. Try to attend some Alanon meetings to get support and learn how to build up those defenses so that your H's bad habits won't tear you up inside.<P>Eventually, you will know in your heart & mind, what the right thing to do is.<P>Hang in there and stay strong!