I know this question has been asked a thousand times but I have yet to see an answer.
Please explain to me the way you view the difference between a woman putting a child up for adoption and a man walking away from a child.
Why is one abandonment and the other is not ?
Please no flaming, I REALLY REALLY want to understand this.

<small>[ March 28, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

I'll answer this the best I can. The way I see it is if a woman gives up a child for adoption and she is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., and/or is very young and has not really started to build a life I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it's a very selfless act. You should not expect your parents to raise your kids for you until your out of college or off the drugs etc. As well, if a "ow" who gets pregnant by mm puts her child up for adoption who is in the above catagory again, I don't see a problem with that either. But if a woman who is capable of raising this child (with or without cs) but just does not want to be bothered to me it's just getting rid of the problem. She is 50% responsible for this incident. IF mm does not want c then she should just give the child up? Again, two wrongs don't make a right. I struggled myself with the option of adoption only because of my age and the circumstances and my kids. Well I realized through counseling it was me being selfish and taking the easy road out, which in the long run was really something I would not been able to live with.....As I'm fresh with this....I just had my daughter last week I can't imagine giving my daughter up to anyone! When they took her out and I saw her I don't care if xmm is there for her or not....I will be. She is perfect and I she will be okay. I do feel he owes her cs. NOT ME, HER! Again it goes back to 50% responsiblity. He also had a choice of birth control and what we did. He also had a 13 month relationship with me and it was not a one night stand. He was never told not to use condoms. He just knew my history and saw my history to concieve my twins. To me if someone is able to take care then they should keep there child. To willing not want to have contact is abondantment in my eyes. It's a choice they make, and yes I do feel it's to make there life easier and less conflict. I'm sorry but that is how I feel. Most men are conflict avoiders. I know xmm has not faced the truth of our relationship with me or his wife. He has lied to us both. He would want this all to go away and his answer would be to get rid of the problem. Not caring the aftermath to either me who is pregnant (and to bs when it comes out in the open). I know that the ow/xow is the horror and most of the blame is put there. But really take away the fact that she was involved with a mm for a moment. Lets say you got pregnant with uh, or any man. You are the age you are now, and have your life in order and kids in place etc. How can you say it would be that easy to just give up that child? Are you going to take that easy road out just to not have to deal with it? Or are you going to do what it takes? I think if most of the woman here were faced in simular situations they would just NOT give that child up, and would expect the father of the child to pay his "FAIR" share of cs. JMHO and no flames inteded either.

needtomoveon,
Thank you so much for the answer. But I'm not just talking about MM walking away from a child. I'm talking about all men.
I understand what you said and it makes some very good points but I'm still reading that if a women decides she cannot parent a child for whatever reasons then it is a selfless act but a man is a conflict avoider.
Do you not agree that even though his reasons are not the same as a women's that does not make them any less valid ?

coming out of lurk mode to say: there is no difference. At least not in my mind.

///there is no difference. At least not in my mind. ///

So are you saying they are both bad or are they both acceptable ?

I guess that depends on your views on adoption. I think in either case, there can be valid reasons for giving up a child...and there can be selfish reasons. Situational.

I recently asked xMM to sign away his parental rights and he is talking to his lawyer to get it done....so I guess I can't be that much against it. In his case, I encouraged it.

Will they let him sign away his rights? From what I understand is that he can't do that unless someone is stepping up to adopt.

Before I was A BS, before I was a mother, before I was a wife, I had this opinion and it has not changed much through the years, if anything my opinion about it has gotten stronger.

I think adoption is a gift for both the child and the parents who adopt them.

I feel that EVERY child should be born into and raised in a home w/ both a mom and a dad, married to each other, and a child born into anything different is getting ripped off.

I said "should be born into". I understand that sometimes marriages end for unavoidable reasons but I think the couple should try their very hardest and then some, when they have children, to keep it together.

And you have to remember, BOTH parents have to agree to give the child up for adoption, it is not just the mother.

I don't agree that it is the "easy" way out. It is the best for a child to be raised by 2 parents so I think it is putting the child's needs first.

Good question though, when compared to a "man" choosing to not be involved, it's considered abandonement.

Couldn't it be, that some men, married or not, upon the realization that they do not want to continue a relationship w/ the mother, also know that having to go back and forth, would not be fair or healthy for a child. Niether would a long drawn out ugly custody battle. Neither one wants to give up the child so the father concedes to let the child live in peace w/ the mother full time in order to, at least, give the child a stable home.

(hmmmm....but then that would mean that some men are actually thinking of the child's best interest....and NOT themselves.....what a concept!)

Ahhhh...remember the good ol' days when single motherhood was mainly a "teenage" problem and NOT the mainstream? (sigh) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents, by law the father has to be notified. I think a father walking away from a child whether or not planned is abandonment, the same for mothers who walk out on their children, which happened to my girlfriend when she was very small. Its running from your responsibilities. No matter how we feel, everything we do has consequences. It is sad to find yourself in this predictament. And truly I think i would rather not have a man involved in my childs life (when I have chosen to keep this child) if he truly does not want it. So I cant imagine forcing someone to be a part of a life they do not care about. It just seems that your asking for more problems and sorrow. So even though i feel yes both people should be responsible for the life of this child, and I do think they are less of a person if they dont owe up to that responsibility. But I firmly believe that the responsibility should be that the child is taken care of financially, so that she lives in the matter that all your children should live. The love and support emotionally should be by the parent or parents that choose to be with the child and truly want the child in their lives. Does this make sense or am I just rambling....trying to explain but sometimes I just dont have a way with words.

I want to thank all of you for the answers you have given so far.


///Giving a child up for adoption is the decision of both parents///

So what you are saying is if both parents agree to give the child up its OK. But if one wants to keep the child then the other parent ( mother or father) should put aside their own feelings and help raise the child ?

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

The saddest thing of all is that there are so many wonderful married couples that arn't able to have their own children. They have to sit on waiting lists, and go through so much. Then we have the unwanted children, living with their mothers as a tool for welfare or child support. I'm sorry, but I think adoption is a wonderful gift to the child.

By giving the child up for adoption, it totally erases all the stigma and the drama of being the oc. Instead of being the result of a nasty little secret, the child is raised with 100% acceptance and love. No drama and all the ugliness of affairs and whores and liars.

I think this is where fathers lose their rights and it is unfair. The woman has far to much power, NTMO even states that she chose to keep her baby, no matter what the father wishes. Sure, it is typical for OW to say that MM should have kept his pants zipped. But should the woman not kept her knees together? Then the ow is out screaming for child support and how this man had better be a father to this baby. Totally forgetting that he never wanted the child in the first place.

The outrage is so ridiculas from an ow. So now we have a child without a father. How sad. The OW like to paint it as the MM is wrong and his wife is wrong, everybody is wrong. Never once admitting that HER CHOICE to keep that child is what created the vacuum in that childs life. Never once realizing that the father and his family are choosing to move on with out ow/oc in their lives, so as not to hurt BW and BC. The price is paid by the oc. Of course the OW want and expect the BW and the BC to just deal with it and all their other simple minded crap they spew.

I think the most selfless thing to do would be to give the child up for adoption. To a family where everyone is happy and excited and full of love and accpetance. Not to be raised as somebodys mistake.

edited to say: sorry but i was caught on fh's sign in name as if all you intellectuals haven't figured it oout by now.

i know, i know i am not an OW but i do have a story to relate.

it is amazing to me how many times a seem to alude back to my #1s when comparing lifes experiences to these subjects. but here goes again.

when his mom first told me she was pg we had been dating off and on for some time (years). she had already had an abortion when she was 16 (mine). that was back in the late 60's when abortion was quite hush hush. anyway, we continued dating trying to figure out who we each were, what we wanted in our own lives, and being so young at the time whether we even wanted to be with each other. lots of attractive meat out there on both sides of the coin. she apparently decided she had come to her conclusion about where she wanted to be and instead of talking to me about it she was going to surprise me with a little one so we could start our family together. and YES birth control was discussed regularly and i was assured things were ok. after all we had been sexually active for some years with no mishaps so why not trust her now? i know again, stupid me. anyhow when she told me i relized that she didn't really care what i wanted and it was all about what she wanted. so i said goodbye to her. then i met fh and our story is history. but about the abandonment. my attitude was that i was not going to be in the childs life. my thoughts were that since she was so young and attractive (definately not in fh's eyes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) she would find someone else to be with her and they would raise 31s in a solid 2 parent household. i was not trying to abandon him in my thinking just let him know one dad and not have to deal with the back and forth crap of a 2 household family.

obviously i am happy the way things turned out.

you see i had dated another girl that was divorced with 1 son and knew that if her and i worked out i would have raised him as my own.

HUGE SIDE NOTE HERE--- FH I AM SORRY IF THIS BRINGS BACK ANY UNPLEASENT MEMORIES FOR YOU. I AM JUST TRYING TO PLACE ANOTHER VIEWPOINT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: full house ]</small>

I think like all other topics that involves such a sensitive nature, There are many answers and there is no one right answer.
I have an adopted child and consider her a gift. I also have a child from a mm.I consider her a gift as well. I am also married. However when I became pregnant, I had been in an affair for many years. I believed he had had a vasectomy and somewhere after half a dozen or so years we stopped using protection. He assured me he had a vasectomy and it was fine, Come to find out that wasnt true he had lied! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Now I find it funny I believed he wouldnt lie to me. he knew i could become pregnant and did every thing to make sure that could happen, I believed (foolishly) I could not, I thought because he had had a vasectomy and was 2o something years older, i was safe. I was a fool and wrong! I shall take my responsibility. I am equally guilty, Being stupid doesnt give me an out.

So I get pregnant, He panicked, left me, His wife told him she would take him for every thing he had if he saw that baby or me again!, He ran like a coward. Yes I say coward, because the week before he was picking out baby names and sharing with all of our co workers and friends. Remember this wasnt exactly a one night stand.

a week after she was born he changed his mind and has been in our lives pretty much every day for the last few years.
He had asked me to give her up while I was pregnant, I refused. he asked me to abort, I refused, not because I am a fanatic, i am a firm believer in a womans right to choose, I just would not choose that option for my self., he now tells me he was a coward and a foolish man and he is so gratefull I did not listen to him.

I never asked for money or for him to be in my childs life, he chose that of his own free will, i didnt take him to court, still havent, I let him pay what he wants, still do. I would have provided for my child no matter who was in her life. It wasnt even something I had to think about, after all she is my baby too.

I think women consider the man a coward, because usually the man has spent alot of time lying and making the ow believe stuff she is hurt. Just like the majority of bs think ow is a bad mother and using her child for a pawn, when she may very well be a concerned parent, and worried about her child. Being over protective is not a crime, and frankly it takes some doing to get used to this sharing idea! Of course it is something you have to deal with, but it is still difficult. In time it becomes easier.

Think about if you have dropped your kid off at daycare and she screams hysterically, Your heart breaks and you worry, same thing if someone picks up your child and she cries still hurts.

I think it helps if we try and understand all sides of this situation.


Sorry I am rambling. Answer to your question. I think all parties have a right to decide what to do. I personally would not want someone who did not want to be around my child, as most mothers would not. the only reason om and I both agreed he was a coward was because of the years involved and his lying about the vasectomy, He wanted a child, just panicked when it happened.

However if he had left and I never heard from him again , I would have left it like that and never ever picked up the phone. Not once.

lynng

you paint such a dreary picture. I dont think it all ends up this way. I am pretty darn happy. My husband and I have worked hard on our marriage, and are doing well, We have a beautiful family great kids, They are all a blessing, I cant imagine life with out them. My "mistake" to quote you is an amazing child. One that OM , His wife , My husband And I love to pieces.
So to you a mistake, To me a child of God , One whom I love dearly.
We all take pride in the kids all of them and there accomplishments. Whether it is the oldest graduating, or the youngest learning her abc's.

She has no stigma unless we give it to her. Her siblings love her, including the ones my age. They are not negative and love showing her off to family and friends, as all big brothers and sisters do.

Life is what you make of it lynn, If you make it a negative experience it will be. I didnt say all of these situations work out, but I dont believe they all fail either. Your doom and gloom philosophy isnt exactly accurate.

I think giving a child up is a personal choice. As for abandoning a child, I guess thats also a personal choice.

My H has an OC. Bascially H is to busy to have his son in his life. H treats OC the same he treats the rest of the kids. When ever he can make time. I resent H for the way he treats all the children, but also for not being more involved with OC. I have done my best to make sure the kids know their brother and have frequent visits with OC and his family.

On the other hand, Xmm has wanted both the kids we have from day one. Never did I get the abortion/adoption talk from him. He wanted me to leave my marriage and be with him. He let his w divorce him to show me how he wants to be with me. I refused. He still lives with his W (xw). I have never forced the kids on him or taking him to court. He has taken me to court to get rights. Which he lost. Xmm takes the kids once a week to his place, his W leaves during the visits cause she can't handle the kids. This is all Xmm choice.

adoption/abandonment, each case is different. Some cases are for selfish reasons, others are doing what they see best for the child. I refuse to judge any here for what they chose

Main Entry: 1aban·don
Pronunciation: &-'ban-d&n
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English abandounen, from Middle French abandoner, from abandon, n., surrender, from a bandon in one's power
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in
2 : to withdraw from often in the face of danger or encroachment <abandon ship>
3 : to withdraw protection, support, or help from
4 : to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly
5 a : to cease from maintaining, practicing, or using <abandoned their native language> b : to cease intending or attempting to perform <abandoned the escape>
- aban·don·er noun
- aban·don·ment /-d&n-m&nt/ noun
synonyms ABANDON, DESERT, FORSAKE mean to leave without intending to return. ABANDON suggests that the thing or person left may be helpless without protection <abandoned children>. DESERT implies that the object left may be weakened but not destroyed by one's absence <a deserted town>. FORSAKE suggests an action more likely to bring impoverishment or bereavement to that which is forsaken than its exposure to physical dangers <a forsaken lover>. synonym see in addition RELINQUISH

This is the definition that I found from Webster's Merriam Dictionary....
In my humble opinion, to abandon someone means to leave them without protection etc. and our court system doesn't allow that!

Abandonment to me, implies having some form of relationship and attachment to the said child before just 'up and leaving'...my father did that to me when he divorced my mother. He ABANDONED me.

As in our particular case, my husband was straight up with the ex-ow about what he wanted to do...adoption. She didn't want to adopt the child out, telling him "you will change your mind and leave your wife and children and become a family with me and oc" (I've read the notes she sent etc. so I know those were her thoughts and not some ex-mm crap to keep me on a leash)

To us, this is what my husband essentially did:
1 a : to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent b : to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in

Essentially he signed sole care and custody over to ex-ow yet we still pay child support and full medical until said child is 18...I hardly find that to be abandonment.

If you want to call my husband a 'desserter' than so be it. He didn't abandon anyone.

Those are my thoughts and my situation. I do understand that some ex-mm continue to sneak and see ow's and oc's on the sly...there are many different situations and things and not all are one size fits all.

But my husband is not an abandoner...if he abandoned anyone, it would be me while his fling was going on. He abandoned his vows to me and our children.

just my thoughts and my situation...

Twiisty

[QUOTE]Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB] I'll answer this the best I can. The way I see it is if a woman gives up a child for adoption and she is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., and/or is very young and has not really started to build a life I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it's a very selfless act.

=^^= OK...let's just adjust this a little using XMM as the subject here. Here are your words with some interjection....

"The way I see it is if a woman (Married Man) gives up a child for adoption and he is unable to care for this child, love, finances, stability, etc., (or already has a wife and children and is already otherwise engaged) and/or is very young (or old) and has not really started to build a life (or can't afford to save for retirement), I don't feel that is selfish, in fact I think it is a very selfless act (to let OW raise OC without interference or allow another childless couple adopt OC)"

He also had a choice of birth control and what we did.

=^^= True. But men in the throes of infidelity are usually in it just for themselves and for the thrill. They are like dogs in heat and they are gambling that nothing will happen because they are selfish and stupid and just in it for that momentary involuntary muscle spasm and the momentary euphoria. It could be anybody or anything that provides that cheap thrill. It is up to the woman to rejct a MM advances...unfortunately, most OW are happy to accept ANY attention from ANY where and will settle for a MM otherwise occupied and engaged in another relationship. For just a brief time, OW can "feel" that she is superior to another woman even if it is a false illusion. For just a brief time, OW can pretend that she has been chosen over another because she is so dang desireable when in reality, most of the time, it is the thrill of having a little strange on the side...and it could be anybody, which makes it not so special at all.

When MM goes out to scout around for a thrill on the side, it is usually because something is lacking within him and he has a need for ego gratification, validation, whatever. Men are not looking to build a relationship with some OW unless it is an "exit affair" and then again, it could be anybody. He certainly isn't worrying about, thinking about or desiring a OC...tht's the LAST thing he wants. So why is it so bad for him not to want OC and wish it put up for adoption when it is apparent that WS/XMM isn't inspired to turn his life upside down and inside out for a child he never expected to have? Wouldn't adoption in this case be the best thing for the OC?

He also had a 13 month relationship with me and it was not a one night stand.

=^^= That should tell you that he was only in the relationship for fun and frolic because now that there is an OC, the relationship has ended. What makes OW think that XMM will leave his life for them? As long as the fun and frolic continues with no complications, then an affair will last longer. As soon as the cold hard reality hits, they hit the road.

He was never told not to use condoms.

=^^= But did you ever insist he use them???? And you're the one with all the power. If you said NO to a sexual relationship, he'd either have to take it elsewhere...or maybe even home.

To willing not want to have contact is abondantment in my eyes.

=^^= In YOUR eyes and the eyes of the other OW this is your POV. But according to the courts across the country, if he is paying CS, he has NOT abandoned OC.

It's a choice they make, and yes I do feel it's to make there life easier and less conflict.

=^^= Of course! Who wants conflict? And who doesn't want to make their lives easier? Especially if the existence of the OC causes his BW and BC extraordinary emotional distress and financial ruin?

I'm sorry but that is how I feel.

=^^= And you are entitled to your feelings even if it is emotionally based and unrealistic. It's an emotional situation with conflicting emotions.

Most men are conflict avoiders.

=^^= It's just they way they are built and nothing any of us say or do will ever change that. There are a few rare exceptions, but I agree with you on this one.

I know xmm has not faced the truth of our relationship with me or his wife.

=^^= That's standard issue. That is what an affair is...deceit. To expect him to be honest NOW after 13 months of deceit is incongruent and unrelaistic and kind of silly because he ain't about to change his MO. He's probably scared and desperate now that he might lose everything meaningful to him because of his lying and self interests.

He would want this all to go away and his answer would be to get rid of the problem.

=^^= Of course! Who wouldn't? This is a terrible situation for everyone effected to be in and it's all because of a desire to have excitement, validation, ego stroking or whatever. He wasn't bargaining on a child, of all things! Just like people don't bargain on aids or social diseases, crabs when they screw around. People are stupid and careless and then when a child is brought into the world under these circumstances, an innocent little person suffers and usually is sentenced to a life without a dad unless the mother finds someone decent and caring...and available!

I know that the ow/xow is the horror and most of the blame is put there.

=^^= Not true! Not true in the least. The only thing the OW IS responsible for, is allowing the A to begin with (becasue SHE has the power) and consenting to unprotected sex with someone who is married with children who will be hurt, and not caring. The WS is the one who bears the brunt of the blame and this is dealt with at home after D-day which none of you OW have any idea of what goes on and if you did, you people wouldn't go on and on about things you know nothing about that make you look silly...like saying that we make "excuses" for MM. Does it look like I have taken any heat off MM here? I think not. But then, OW read what they want and have their own myopic POV while consistently misquoting, misjudging and then holding US resposnbile for our husband's decisions. I mean, the HATE I read on TOW against BW and the constant bashing is testimony that not only do you all hate BW, but blame her and hold her responsible despite your declarations to the contrary....actions speak far louder than words.

But really take away the fact that she was involved with a mm for a moment. Lets say you got pregnant with uh, or any man. You are the age you are now, and have your life in order and kids in place etc. How can you say it would be that easy to just give up that child? Are you going to take that easy road out just to not have to deal with it? Or are you going to do what it takes?

=^^= I gave up a child at 19 and it was the hardest thing I ever endured so to say it was taking the easy way out is the most preposterous and insensitive thing I have ever heard. My bio-son was raised by two wonderful people who adored him and provided for him a stable and loving home. Something I was unable to offer him. Had he been born five years later, it might have been different, but I couldn't expect my child to suffer and do without because of what I wanted or MY desires. My life was chaotic and an enormous mess back then and there were extenuating circumstances that would have caused him immense unhappiness and instability. I gave my son a gift. For 18 years I absorbed the sorrow and pain of my decision because it wasn't about me or what I wanted or what I could take or not take, it was about what was best for him. In hindsight I see I made the right decision for him. It was MY problem, MY repsonsiblity, MY own doings...my logical consequences and I just sucked it up. The "dad" was not worthy of any of us. I saw the bio dad for the first time in 25 years at a auto parts store last month when I went to get a tailight lens for my car. I was standing at the counter reading a list for my part number and he walked up to me and said "Catnip...wow, if I knew you were going to still look like this back then..." I said, "For God's sake. Stop right there. Don't say a word...just get me part #xxx." He went to get my lens and came back with pictures of his "kids". He stood there all proud and bragging about his two pathetic weiner dogs. THIS is what he loves and is proud of. He never asked about his son (knowing I have contact now) but went on and on about these idiotic dogs. I said..."They're short. Like you. I heard people eventually resemble their dog." Then I laughed and winked like I was kidding and he laughed too, like he didn't catch the insult. I was soooo glad he was never the influence in my son's life and that I had the foresight to give my child to a home where the father was mature, involved, selfless and caring. However, I did not know what my son's adoptive parents were like until he was 18 and I met all of them, so for 18 years I lived in the agony of not knowing and worrying. But, God blessed me with contact at 18 and having all my fears resolved.

I think if most of the woman here were faced in simular situations they would just NOT give that child up, and would expect the father of the child to pay his "FAIR" share of cs.

=^^= Well, now, this is where I get confused. What exactly do OW want and expect? We always get all these conflicting messages from you people. CS is paid most of the time, and pretty healthy CS, too. So what are we crying about here? CS or Contact? It all gets so muddy. What can you reasonably expect from a XMM with a WIFE and with CHILDREN that you never considered while in the throes of your A with him? Is he supposed to inconvenience his wife and cause her even more distress because YOU demand contact with your OC despite the trauma to his Wife and Children? Isn't the enormous financial hardship to her and the kdis enough for you people? Isn't disrupting their one life enough for you? Do you ahve to insist that they icorporate a OC into their lives and expect them to absorb the humiliation and embarrassment of it all too? Why can't they just get on with their lives qand you get on with yours? You both phuqued up so lets' just cut all losses, be happy with the bucks and find a stabel SG to be daddy and spouse...these are the consequences of your actions so suck it up. Why should the W just suck it up and accept contact simply becuase she wants to keep what is rightfully hers anyway? Is it that piece of paper thingy again? Or the hypocritical Christian thingy again? Or the cult thingy again or any of the other ridiculous and mindless charges that are constantly filed against us on TOW? I read these charges against the BW and go back to try to find evidence of it and can only find maybe one or two isolated examples out of forty people and wonder what's up with that? You people are just dying to indict us on something, anything, to justify and bolster your idealogue. And it is so assinine.

Once again, all your OW are bashing the BW (the wrong person) and trying to force or shame her into contact (which you really don't want to happen with her anyway)...when this incredible outrage of yours should be addressed to XMM. But, then, XMM are conflict avoiders and don't post here...so I guess I can see your frustration of not being able to reach him and spew at him for fear of a restraining order or something.

So many opinions and so much vitriole...it's sad that your TOW people can't be a little kinder and more understanding and empathetic to the BW's feelings...but then, you don't care, never cared...so why expect this consideration from BW's when you are so unwilling to offer it to them? After all, you all threw the first punch.

True. But men in the throes of infidelity are usually in it just for themselves and for the thrill. They are like dogs in heat and they are gambling that nothing will happen because they are selfish and stupid and just in it for that momentary involuntary muscle spasm and the momentary euphoria. It could be anybody or anything that provides that cheap thrill. It is up to the woman to rejct a MM advances...unfortunately, most OW are happy to accept ANY attention from ANY where and will settle for a MM otherwise occupied and engaged in another relationship. For just a brief time, OW can "feel" that she is superior to another woman even if it is a false illusion. For just a brief time, OW can pretend that she has been chosen over another because she is so dang desireable when in reality, most of the time, it is the thrill of having a little strange on the side...and it could be anybody, which makes it not so special at all.


haha What a way with words you have catnip.. funny I never looked at myself that way, as I never ever in my life had had an affair before this time. Infact I would have described an ow just as you did, Untill i became one, Only difference is, I was married als and I was the one with young children at home and he wanted me to give up my husband and children if needed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But I shall ask my usband if he thinks of himself as a dog in heat ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> although I know X-mm's answer he would be offended!

Don't know which catagory you would place me, but I have been in the birth mother's shoes, and the xMOW's shoes! Now, I have never felt selfish for the baby we gave up for adoption years ago, as the baby was being placed in a home that could not only love, but support her. We were way too young, and as other's have said, it's not fair to the grandparents to put them in "parent" mode again, till we can "handle" or "deal" with the child on our own.

As for the xMOW side of it, I DID think of both abortion and adoption before we decided to raise Abbi as our own. The abortion was only for maybe an hour, as God had His hand in how that turned out. Adoption was the next decision we wrestled with. I was more than willing to give Abbi up for adoption, even though I knew how difficult it would be! I actually left the decision up to Sailorman, as he would be the one having to deal with the emotions of raising another man's child. Well, we are now almost 4 yrs post D-day, and have NEVER had a DNA test, and Sailorman doesn't care! He is Abbi's Daddy, and that's all that matters!

Now, some of you may say that I wasn't being fair to xOM, but he could have done the research to see if I'd actually gotten P or not, and according to the state law, if he didn't file a claim w/in a certain time period, he's lost any and all claims he could have ever had for Abbi. Do I feel bad, NO, and I never will.

Most of you know of the violence that xOM had, and that's one of the biggest reasons for never telling him. The other is that we never wanted him in our lives, violence or not! From experience, cutting contact w/the OP is the BEST way to end the A, and not get stuck in it again! If you continue to have that contact, there's always that sliver of history that you had w/the OP! Heck, Sailorman and I even promised eachother that we would stay away from forming any friendships with someone of the opposite sex! And, for those of you who think that it doesn't work, it sure has for us. We still have issues that we are dealing with, but we are not taking those to the "friends" that got us in trouble in the first place! We are talking openly with eachother, and that helps us to get closer than we ever were before.

As for the actual first question asked here, I feel that adoption and what many have claimed is abandonment are actually the same thing! I don't think that if the MM or even OM is paying child support that he is abandoning the child! Why, because if they are paying child support, they are SUPPORTING the child! You can't force parenthood on anyone, be it male or female! If a man doesn't want to be involved in the child's life, for whatever reason, but is paying the CS that is no way abandonment! To try to force visitation, because you want a father for your child, is wrong for the man and for the child! If you could force parenthood, don't you think that the judges and courts would inforce visitation on the man who doesn't want the visitation? Just like if they don't pay CS, they can be put in jail or other such punishments? They don't do that, because the courts can't force it on ANYONE!

Yes, in some cases, the MM does sneak around, but in the majority of the cases here they are working on their M's and the last thing they want to do is destroy what they have so recently rebuilt. Just as the BW's here need to remember that their stories are each unique, so do the OW who post or lurk on this board. If you try to force someone to do something, you generally receive the opposite of the desired results. If you work together, to reach a mutual agreement, generally the desired results is either met, or altered by that mutual agreement. That is just common sense! It works no matter what the situation is. If you are at eachother's throats or at opposite ends of the choice, how could anything ever work?

So, if the parties involved with the OC can't agree on the majority of choices involved with contact, wouldn't it be better for the OC, especially if the MM can't give the child the time that child deserves, if the MM and his W do not have contact? Couldn't it harm the child MORE so if the contact was constantly wraught with tension, fighting, or other not so obvious problems? If the mother of a child is so concerned about how the child grows up, don't you think that mother would willingly allow such situations to be avoided at all costs? If so, how could you call a man who in many ways IS looking out for the best interests of the child by NOT having contact, but still providing the CS, a deadbeat dad or claim that he is abandoning said child? What about the children who are already in the M? Just as the OW is looking out for her child, so is the W and often times MM looking out for their children!

I think that as with everything, each situation is unique, but I feel that if the MM is providing CS, and has not had contact w/the OC he is NOT abandoning the OC.

Now, if the MM has had contact, has been paying CS and then, he decides that contact isn't for him(now I'm talking years of "co-parenting" and the OC has bonded w/MM) and just drops the contact, that could be considered abandonment. But, if it's the case where the BW finds out years down the road of the OC, and the MM has been having contact, but hiding it from the BW and the rest of his family, if the W feels the need to repair their M, and the OW demands to continue to be involved w/visitation w/only the MM, the BW has every right to have that type of visitation stopped! But, some sort of visitation including the BW should be worked out! But, the OW should realize what a devastating situation the BW has just been forced into!

I don't feel that demands are the way to go in ANY situation, as it just automatically puts someone on the defensive to demand anything. But, if you can sit down and discuss the situation calmly, a mutually acceptable choice will be made. AND, any decision made in the marriage comes above and beyond any outside influance! Vows in a marriage are made infront of witnesses, vows in an A are made in secret. So, in my eyes, the marriage vows transcend any other secret vows. Yes, I broke my vows, but have re-dedicated to those vows, and now have accountablity.

Now, I know that I rambled, but I stand by what I have written, and hope that I made sense.

Just my $0.02

Tigger

My x-om was informed of the P. Left any and all decisions to me, promising never to re-enter my life again. Then left, and never looked back. I do not consider him an abandoner. My H has chosen to be and is this baby's father. If my H were to all of a sudden leave, and turn his back on our child, I would consider it abandonment. To leave a child in which there is an established relationship with, is abandonment, in my eyes. As I see it, MM who who never had contact with OC, but paid CS, if needed, as required by law, did not abandon OC.

As for adoption, whether it's decided upon for all the "right" reasons, or all the "wrong" reasons, what does it matter? As long as it's all legal, and the couple adopting the child can provide a loving, stable, 2 parent home, I say that's wonderful!